Ganondorf Changes (E3)

[ZagarTulip]

I am so far liking the sword attacks he has, because here is the history I remember:

Melee - Ganondorf never uses however it was shown in one of his victory animations
Brawl- Ganondorf still didn't use it but pulls out a sword in his taunt
SSB4 - Ganondorf has an unlockable Custom Move that utilizes a sword (but just one attack)
Ultimate - Ganondorf uses a sword in his attacks

 

[Boartobewild]

Very situational, but very rewarding when it actually works. It's a move I'll throw out maybe once or twice a game to catch people of guard. If I know I'm playing a good player though, then it just might be once or twice a set. I prefer going with options that are more reliable in a competitive setting. I'll probably be using a little more in Ultimate though. The styyyle.



Yeah, it's definitely fun. We've got a lot of ways to harass recovering opponents now that edge-guarding will be more prevalent since you won't have players spamming air-dodge (+ recoveries in general don't seem to be as stupid as they were in Smash 4). The most satisfying move for me is the reverse Uair. One way ticket to gimp city.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but according to the ssb wiki, they actually removed the late hit box properties of ganon's Uair, so it functions more like falcon's or mario's Uair and no longer making jab resets possible with this move, which is f* stupid to be honest.

Why did they feel the need to nerf this move that was one of the only saving graces of ganon back in smash4, but not only that, they moved up the start up from 6 to 8 probably as a consequense of the general 3 frame jumpsquat everyone shares now and felt that the move was too strong? I hope they at least are fair and nerf what has and will be similairly brainless and obnouxious like cloud's Uair for example.

 

[Hokori]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but according to the ssb wiki, they actually removed the late hit box properties of ganon's Uair, so it functions more like falcon's or mario's Uair and no longer making jab resets possible with this move, which is f* stupid to be honest.

Why did they feel the need to nerf this move that was one of the only saving graces of ganon back in smash4, but not only that, they moved up the start up from 6 to 8 probably as a consequense of the general 3 frame jumpsquat everyone shares now and felt that the move was too strong? I hope they at least are fair and nerf what has and will be similairly brainless and obnouxious like cloud's Uair for example.

Wait, seriously? Wow, that's ****ing heartbreaking. I'll be pretty bummed if that's still the case on release :/

 

[Boartobewild]

Is it just me, or did they sort of invalidate Warlock punch by adding that new Fsmash with more range, disjoint, and similar power?

Well if warlockpunch still functions mostly the same as it did in smash4, I'll ( at least try) be using it the same way as I did back in smash4, as an option to punish certain strong moves with it, like charizard's flare blitz, ness and lucas up-b, ryu's focus attack, ike's eruption, bowser's D-b and cloud and ike's up-b( the punish window for this moves were very small and required a lot of prediction to pull off, but were satisfying as all hell)so at the very least I would realisticly expect/hope from this move is to give it super armor for the entire duration.

If you look up the specifics of the mechanics of the Falcon and Warlock punch respectively in smash4, you start wondering what Sakurai was smoking when he "reworked" those moves.

 

[Boartobewild]

Does anybody know for certain whether flamechoke still puts ganon into freefall/helpless state when used in the air or not? From what I've seen most Side-bs with similair properties such as Zelda's fireball, shiek's grenade etc no longer do so ( thank god) but is the same true for the demon king?

I would hope so, because that would at least be a good trade-off/ justification for ganoncide no longer being guaranteed.

Though if I could change something about flame choke, I would give the grounded version it's grab armor back, especially considering that ganon has no guaranteed followups and teching ( from what I've seen at treehouse at least) seems even easier now than before, but considering how good wizkick is looking now, ganon should be able to catch every rollaway if he predicts correctly.

 

[Diem]

If Flame Choke no longer results in a helpless state, that'd be a huge boost to Ganondorf's recovery. So significant that I doubt that's the case, but given all the changes he's received, who knows.

 

[meleebrawler]

Does anybody know for certain whether flamechoke still puts ganon into freefall/helpless state when used in the air or not? From what I've seen most Side-bs with similair properties such as Zelda's fireball, shiek's grenade etc no longer do so ( thank god) but is the same true for the demon king?

I would hope so, because that would at least be a good trade-off/ justification for ganoncide no longer being guaranteed.

Though if I could change something about flame choke, I would give the grounded version it's grab armor back, especially considering that ganon has no guaranteed followups and teching ( from what I've seen at treehouse at least) seems even easier now than before, but considering how good wizkick is looking now, ganon should be able to catch every rollaway if he predicts correctly.

Isn't grab armor only relevant in FFAs/doubles?

 

[Boartobewild]

Isn't grab armor only relevant in FFAs/doubles?

Sorry I worded that wrong, what I meant to say is that Ganon should get superarmor frames either during the whole duration of the lunge and actual damage "step", or at the very least when he's just frames away from grabbing a fighter, so he can't be interrupted by any old jab or tilt that get's thrown his way. I think that's fair considering that his opponents get way more time to react compared to most dash-grabs and also have about a 60% chance of not getting followed up on, especially now where even the treehouse staff seemed to consistently tech( if that even was teching) and have the option of either roll away, roll behind or getup attack.

 

[King9999]

Armor on flame choke would be cool, though I think I'd prefer it on wizard foot instead given a choice. I want flame choke to be untechable.

 

[Boartobewild]

If Flame Choke no longer results in a helpless state, that'd be a huge boost to Ganondorf's recovery. So significant that I doubt that's the case, but given all the changes he's received, who knows.

Well I've just looked through all footage available of Ganon in Ultimate and I am sad to report that both Ganon and Falcon once again, become helpless after using their side-b in the air :/

Which I find pretty unfair considering how many other Side-b that suffered from the same problem, no longer do. Granted most of these don't involve much of horizontal movement boost, but if luigi and fox, falco and especially little mac!!! can use their double jump and up-b afterwards, I don't see why Cpt. Falcon and Ganon shouldn't be able to as well.

Well Falcon's raptor boost acts as a meteor so edge guarding him would become trickier and he also didn't have as much of a problem returning to the stage as Ganon.

There's no excuse for Ganon though.... His recovery was always one of his more unnessacary weaknesses, right after having next to no Oos options and taking away his guranteed ganon- cide felt like a compromise but no! Are you telling me there were people that were complaining about the way ganoncide worked or felt it that it was OP?!?

So first the Uair nerf and now this!!! Sakurai why? I'm already getting smash 4 update flashbacks........>_<

 

[Diem]

That's disappointing. I don't main Ganondorf, but I do play him occasionally when playing with my siblings, and it's weird to see how other characters with even more powerful and reaching Side-B's, like Charizard, aren't put into helpless state when Ganondorf and Falcon are.

 

[Boartobewild]

W

That's disappointing. I don't main Ganondorf, but I do play him occasionally when playing with my siblings, and it's weird to see how other characters with even more powerful and reaching Side-B's, like Charizard, aren't put into helpless state when Ganondorf and Falcon are.

I know right? I'm seriously considering learning japanese and sending Sakurai a letter just to fix this mess as well as mentioning the general problem with heavies.

Speaking of, has anybody ever tried sending fan-mail and requesting changes and certain things to be included and so on? If the answer is yes, what are the chances of succecess?

 

[Androobie]

what are the chances of succecess?

Zero, love, aught, nadir, zip, scratch, nix, cipher, zilch, blank, naught, donut hole, void, nullity, rock bottom, nada, nought, or goose egg.

 

[meleebrawler]

You do realize that at his core, Ganondorf is all about using exploitable moves and strategies?

I said this before in the Ridley threads, and I'll say it again here: being fun to play trumps overall viability in my book, and I'd
rather not see him homogenized into a top tier template or on the flipside, his current template overtuned to the point of making casual
battles unenjoyable, just for the sake of making him viable.

Ganondorf will never be fast, because he is slow af even in his own games. Let's look to new things he will be able to do, instead of crying over
lost Smash 4 tech in a game that isn't 4.

 

[Boartobewild]

You do realize that at his core, Ganondorf is all about using exploitable moves and strategies?

I said this before in the Ridley threads, and I'll say it again here: being fun to play trumps overall viability in my book, and I'd
rather not see him homogenized into a top tier template or on the flipside, his current template overtuned to the point of making casual
battles unenjoyable, just for the sake of making him viable.

Ganondorf will never be fast, because he is slow af even in his own games. Let's look to new things he will be able to do, instead of crying over
lost Smash 4 tech in a game that isn't 4.

And having a ****tier recovery compared to all the other characters that can move/act after using their side b, and removing one of ganon's most fun and enjoyable traits;"the uair TIPMAN" is part of that philosophy?!

I'm sorry, but I have to call BULL on that mentality. I never said I wanted Ganon to be a faster character( he looks pretty fine right now, especially now that everyone has frame 3 jump squad) that doesn't bait and play mind games with characters.

At the best ( or worst if we're talking about your viewpoint/stance) I wanted him to have something like mario's/ryu's up-tilt, or even better replace his massively overrated and actually worst move, ****ing Volcano kick, with one of his "old" best one's, UP-SMASH.

Granted you couldn't charge it any more and it's power would have to be heavily reduced, but if it still could let you have next to no endlag and be also faster( startup frame 5 possibly?) and confirm into every kind of airial, but dair, I think that would be pretty dope.

 

[SJMistery]

U-tilt has faster startup. Mang0 does it here: https://youtu.be/fQ1w0Dgh6Ik?t=74 What we don't know is if it still retains the power and instant guard break.

I noticed that f-air and down B have less end lag too.

Shield Breaker has increased shield damage, and Ryu still has his shield-breaking Ftilt. Unlikely for them to remove the shield damage.
On the invitational, it killed even earlier than usual.
But I wish the Up tilt had been replaced with the old Up Smash. Warlock Punch does everything Up Tilt does better, other than break shields in one hit (and the Warlock Blade custom had even MORE shield damage than Up Tilt with about the same knockback, more speed AND super-armor, it would not surprise me that Warlock Punch now breaks shields in one go).

FFA moves to land kills on players occupied with the others/not focused on you =P

Using them after a shield break is obvious, so yeah, that doesn't count. If I'm using those moves in a match, I'm likely just looking to style on you/get highlight footage, which is important to me as a Ganondorf player.

Warlock Punch can be used as a pseudo-counter with the super armor. I especially love using it to punish ******** Yoshi, Corrin, Cp Falcon, Ganondorf, Sonic, Zamus, Bowser and Link players that keep spamming Dair and Down B.

 

[Boartobewild]

Shield Breaker has increased shield damage, and Ryu still has his shield-breaking Ftilt. Unlikely for them to remove the shield damage.
On the invitational, it killed even earlier than usual.
But I wish the Up tilt had been replaced with the old Up Smash. Warlock Punch does everything Up Tilt does better, other than break shields in one hit (and the Warlock Blade custom had even MORE shield damage than Up Tilt with about the same knockback, more speed AND super-armor, it would not surprise me that Warlock Punch now breaks shields in one go).


Warlock Punch can be used as a pseudo-counter with the super armor. I especially love using it to punish ******** Yoshi, Corrin, Cp Falcon, Ganondorf, Sonic, Zamus, Bowser and Link players that keep spamming Dair and Down B.

Pretty ****ing much, we sit in the same boat.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Looking at the footage for the new Ganon is promising. But it seems we are 50% there to a fully unique Ganondorf that is also overall good. Smashes are better. Aerials are quicker and look stronger. Speed is overall increased etc. But I still need to see if his grab range was fixed... now that he has no chain throw it only makes sense that he has a longer grab reach like DK or Charizard for example.

BUT From what I saw they still need to change;
-Wizards foot needs to be stronger kinda like in Melee.
-Up air should get tip-man back.
-up tilt should be his old up smash kick. OR have it be the upsmash but if you hold A it becomes volcano kick, Could be cool that way.
-please get rid of warlock punch. Give him his iconic projectile already... all other characters have unique moves from their games Ganon should get his.
-his recovery is atrocious still. They should let him UpB after SideB AND/OR give him a float like Peach. Ganon floats in like all his games pretty much. Would make his recovery less awful.
-he should be a bit faster still. If they make him Melee fast he would still be a slow character but he would be fast enough.

And I would love more cosmetic touch ups with more magic. Big magic effect on Fair and Uair and magic on Bair and other kicks and punches just so he is more warlock like.

Excited for the future now for sure though as the Smash team are open to change Ganon now.

 

[Boartobewild]

damn, how do you delete accidental messages?

 

[Boartobewild]

Looking at the footage for the new Ganon is promising. But it seems we are 50% there to a fully unique Ganondorf that is also overall good. Smashes are better. Aerials are quicker and look stronger. Speed is overall increased etc. But I still need to see if his grab range was fixed... now that he has no chain throw it only makes sense that he has a longer grab reach like DK or Charizard for example.

BUT From what I saw they still need to change;
-Wizards foot needs to be stronger kinda like in Melee.
-Up air should get tip-man back.
-up tilt should be his old up smash kick. OR have it be the upsmash but if you hold A it becomes volcano kick, Could be cool that way.
-please get rid of warlock punch. Give him his iconic projectile already... all other characters have unique moves from their games Ganon should get his.
-his recovery is atrocious still. They should let him UpB after SideB AND/OR give him a float like Peach. Ganon floats in like all his games pretty much. Would make his recovery less awful.
-he should be a bit faster still. If they make him Melee fast he would still be a slow character but he would be fast enough.

And I would love more cosmetic touch ups with more magic. Big magic effect on Fair and Uair and magic on Bair and other kicks and punches just so he is more warlock like.

Excited for the future now for sure though as the Smash team are open to change Ganon now.

Soooooooooo much yesssssssssss! You took the words right out of my mouth!

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Soooooooooo much yesssssssssss! You took the words right out of my mouth!

Great minds think alike

 

[Arthur97]

I think people may be jumping the gun if they say he's his own character.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I think people may be jumping the gun if they say he's his own character.

You are correct. I'd say he is about 50-60% there to be really his own unique character. More unique moves from the LOZ series would cement him. Give him the orb projectile, a float, make his Up B a teleport and make his fist and kick attacks imbued with more big visual magic effects and he would be very "Ganondorf" to me at that point. Still some clone moves like Nair, Dair etc. But as long as they are very visually unique and have lots of magic on them I think is a good compromise.

 

[hermes]

There is no way he will be viable with his atrocious up b, especially with new mechanics. Ness became mid tier at best despite his crazy tools, ganon has no chance. Our legendary upsmash should return in the form of uptilt. And plz a big NO to warlock punch. I dont mind that ganondorfs moves are similar to falcon but that one move annoys the hell out of me.. I would love to have it as a multipurpose projectile which could also help in mobility.

 

[meleebrawler]

There is no way he will be viable with his atrocious up b, especially with new mechanics. Ness became mid tier at best despite his crazy tools, ganon has no chance. Our legendary upsmash should return in the form of uptilt. And plz a big NO to warlock punch. I dont mind that ganondorfs moves are similar to falcon but that one move annoys the hell out of me.. I would love to have it as a multipurpose projectile which could also help in mobility.

Up Bs that aren't good recoveries usually make for powerful attacks instead, and that certainly describes Dark Dive now.

 

[hermes]

Up Bs that aren't good recoveries usually make for powerful attacks instead, and that certainly describes Dark Dive now.

What did they change? Thats cool if they gave it offensive capabilities (still bad and no close to roy up b though). It now at least kills like falcon up b?

It is also visually lacking if he doesnt grab someone.

 

[meleebrawler]

What did they change? Thats cool if they gave it offensive capabilities (still bad and no close to roy up b though). It now at least kills like falcon up b?

It is also visually lacking if he doesnt grab someone.

Sends people flying across Battlefield at 80%.

 

[Boartobewild]

What did they change? Thats cool if they gave it offensive capabilities (still bad and no close to roy up b though). It now at least kills like falcon up b?

It is also visually lacking if he doesnt grab someone.

I would have been with you when it comes to Ganon's darkdive in Smash 4 and Brawl, where it was hella weak compared to melee where grab invincibility was still in effect, ( a property Ganon should have kept seeing as he has two additional command grabs and the lore to support being intangible/invincible at times) and it also was deservingly stronger than Cap's Falcon dive.

I mean I don't know about you, but I always thought having a move that involves grabbing someone in the air, clamping, shocking and torturing them with high voltage magic for a couple of seconds before releasing and finishing them with an explosion kick, is pretty damn metal!

One property that makes ganons Up-b miles better than falcons was the weak, but very useful uppercut at the end of the animation. So before you write off Dark dive I would wait and see how the meta develops/shapes up to be.

One fact that's reassuring though is despite Ganon and Falcon being now in the minority of Chars(for now at least), who are not able to act after Side-b, they can still use directional air dodge to extend their recovery somewhat. When I'm thinking back to smash 4, I can't tell you the amount of times this feature would have saved my ass so I'm extremely grateful that Sakurai found a good compromise in this regard.

 

[King9999]

Ganon's Up B eventually got buffed in Smash 4, but I'm in agreement that it should KO you early to compensate for being a weak recovery option.

Have there been any more reported changes since CEO 2018?

 

[Hokori]

One fact that's reassuring though is despite Ganon and Falcon being now in the minority of Chars(for now at least), who are not able to act after Side-b, they can still use directional air dodge to extend their recovery somewhat. When I'm thinking back to smash 4, I can't tell you the amount of times this feature would have saved my *** so I'm extremely grateful that Sakurai found a good compromise in this regard.

Unless things change from the E3/CEO build to release, we'll have to use the directional air dodge to evade an attack and grab the ledge/land on stage or use it during the period when we're still well above the stage. Reason being: The amount of time you have to wait before acting out of a directional airdodge is pretty lengthy. If you wait to do it until you're just above the ledge, you basically forfeit your stock.

I wish we could also use Wiz Kick to refresh our midair jump like in Melee.

Ganon's Up B eventually got buffed in Smash 4, but I'm in agreement that it should KO you early to compensate for being a weak recovery option.

Have there been any more reported changes since CEO 2018?

I've seen comments of people saying that there might have been some knockback changes from E3 to CEO, but no confirmation. In any case, no Ganon-specific changes. I think we've learned as much as we could about pre-release Ganon from all of the gameplay we've seen. If you want to see a compilation of pre-release frame data and damage numbers, then Almand made a nice thread for us. I'll link it here in case you haven't seen it.

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-king-of-evil-returns-frame-data-damage-changes.456273/

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Unless things change from the E3/CEO build to release, we'll have to use the directional air dodge to evade an attack and grab the ledge/land on stage or use it during the period when we're still well above the stage. Reason being: The amount of time you have to wait before acting out of a directional airdodge is pretty lengthy. If you wait to do it until you're just above the ledge, you basically forfeit your stock.

I wish we could also use Wiz Kick to refresh our midair jump like in Melee.



I've seen comments of people saying that there might have been some knockback changes from E3 to CEO, but no confirmation. In any case, no Ganon-specific changes. I think we've learned as much as we could about pre-release Ganon from all of the gameplay we've seen. If you want to see a compilation of pre-release frame data and damage numbers, then Almand made a nice thread for us. I'll link it here in case you haven't seen it.

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-king-of-evil-returns-frame-data-damage-changes.456273/

"I wish we could also use Wiz Kick to refresh our midair jump like in Melee." SO MUCH YES!

I would still prefer a float but that mechanic from Melee is sorely missed.

 

[BigHairyFart]

As much as I would love that it's hella unlikely since it was literally a glitch/oversight in melee and was immediately removed in Brawl, same as with Falcon Kick. A float like PM Ganon has would be literally perfection without making his recovery absurdly good like it is in PM(where he still gets his jump back after wizards foot).

 

[Awesomeperson159]

Here's a compilation of buffs and nerfs to Ganondorf. Spoiler: There's a lot more buffs. (Green is buff, red is nerf).

Dash speed increased.

Jump height increased.

Jab's sourspot has been removed.

UTilt has significantly less startup and ending lag. It also deals slightly more damage and knockback.

All smash attacks have disjointed hitboxes.

All aerials have significantly less landing lag.

FAir leans forward more like Melee, improving its reach.

FAir's auto-cancel window has been restored after being removed by a glitch in 4.

Grab range improved.

UThrow deals more damage.

Warlock Punch deals more damage and is stronger.

Grounded Flame Choke has less ending lag, increasing the amount of true follow-ups.

Dark Dive has higher knockback, launches at a more horizontal angle, and has less ending lag, increasing its edgeguarding and KO potential. It also deals damage to opponents who trade hits.

Grounded Wizard's Foot travels faster and has significantly less ending lag. The sourspot is also now on the leg instead of the foot, making the sweetspot easier to hit.

New FSmash: Swings a sword overhead in a broad, heavy, slow swing for massive damage (like Ike's FSmash). Compared to his old one, has much more range and deals more damage.

New DSmash: Jabs his sword along the ground on both sides (like Cloud's dsmash) (pointed out by @DesireDelta). Compared to his old one, has more range, has less startup, semi-spikes opponents, connects better, has a lower hitbox placement that hits crouching opponents, and lowers Ganondord's hurtbox.

New USmash: Swings his sword completely over his head, from one side to another (like Ike's usmash) (pointed out by @DesireDelta). Compared to his old one, has less startup and much more range.

New FSmash has slightly more startup and ending lag.

New USmash has more ending lag.

UAir has more startup and no longer hits below, making it much worse for edgeguarding and preventing jab locks.

Opponents can mash out of Ganoncide, significantly hindering its utility.

 

[Boartobewild]

Here's a compilation of buffs and nerfs to Ganondorf. Spoiler: There's a lot more buffs. (Green is buff, red is nerf).

Dash speed increased.

Jump height increased.

Jab's sourspot has been removed.

UTilt has significantly less startup and ending lag. It also deals slightly more damage and knockback.

All smash attacks have disjointed hitboxes.

All aerials have significantly less landing lag.

FAir leans forward more like Melee, improving its reach.

FAir's auto-cancel window has been restored after being removed by a glitch in 4.

Grab range improved.

UThrow deals more damage.

Warlock Punch deals more damage and is stronger.

Grounded Flame Choke has less ending lag, increasing the amount of true follow-ups.

Dark Dive has higher knockback, launches at a more horizontal angle, and has less ending lag, increasing its edgeguarding and KO potential. It also deals damage to opponents who trade hits.

Grounded Wizard's Foot travels faster and has significantly less ending lag. The sourspot is also now on the leg instead of the foot, making the sweetspot easier to hit.

New FSmash: Swings a sword overhead in a broad, heavy, slow swing for massive damage (like Ike's FSmash). Compared to his old one, has much more range and deals more damage.

New DSmash: Jabs his sword along the ground on both sides (like Cloud's dsmash) (pointed out by @DesireDelta). Compared to his old one, has more range, has less startup, semi-spikes opponents, connects better, has a lower hitbox placement that hits crouching opponents, and lowers Ganondord's hurtbox.

New USmash: Swings his sword completely over his head, from one side to another (like Ike's usmash) (pointed out by @DesireDelta). Compared to his old one, has less startup and much more range.

New FSmash has slightly more startup and ending lag.

New USmash has more ending lag.

UAir has more startup and no longer hits below, making it much worse for edgeguarding and preventing jab locks.

Opponents can mash out of Ganoncide, significantly hindering its utility.

I assume most of these were taken from the Ssb wiki? As far as nerfs go, I think f-tilt base damage was reduced to 12 instead of 13 and all his grab frames excluding command grabs
(according to a lot of people) were moved up by one.

On the subject of his grab and it's improved range, does anyone know by how much/can you compare it to any other character's grab? Also the most important thing regarding Warlockpunch does anyone know whether it's Superarmor frames are still the same? And finally, even though I still don't give a crap about Volcano kick, how do the hitboxes and sweet spot work now?

 

[Awesomeperson159]

Faster, stronger Warlock Kick can edgeguard extremely well when grounded: https://youtu.be/9Onr2zBp6I0?t=1m20s

And finally, even though I still don't give a crap about Volcano kick, how do the hitboxes and sweet spot work now?

I know from Almand 's thread that Volcano Kick seems to be stronger at the foot instead of the base of the leg. As for his grab, he extends his entire arm diagonally downwards, so it might have slightly above-average range, although not by much. Pause https://youtu.be/zRHMwPzdLFU?t=4m52s at 4:52 to see him grab Link at what looks to be max range.

 

[King9999]

The flame choke having less ending lag would explain why players were able to hit the opponent with d-tilt after they tech. This is good news!

 

[Awesomeperson159]

The flame choke having less ending lag would explain why players were able to hit the opponent with d-tilt after they tech. This is good news!

It also means that if they miss the tech, he can use moves with 5 frames more start-up to punish. This means that if they miss a tech, DSmash is a true follow-up (since DTilt was true in 4, and DSmash has 5 frames more startup). Also, since DSmash is stronger, it's even better that you have more follow-ups. Sad they nerfed UAir hitbox though, as the old hitting below combined with 3 frame jumpsquat means you would've been able to potentially short hop aerial it out of Flame Choke, with even less lag than DTilt.

 

[Boartobewild]

It also means that if they miss the tech, he can use moves with 5 frames more start-up to punish. This means that if they miss a tech, DSmash is a true follow-up (since DTilt was true in 4, and DSmash has 5 frames more startup). Also, since DSmash is stronger, it's even better that you have more follow-ups. Sad they nerfed UAir hitbox though, as the old hitting below combined with 3 frame jumpsquat means you would've been able to potentially short hop aerial it out of Flame Choke, with even less lag than DTilt.

The really didn't want footstoolcombos and consequently jablocks to be a thing anymore, so I'm not surprised about them removing the very last sourspot, just hope that hitting them behind you on the ground is still possible on a majority of the cast.

Another thing when bringing up uair's slower startup, keep in mind that ganon jumps a whole 4 frames earlier, so they prob just adjusted his fastest airial (if I remember correctly) to make it not quite as broken.

 

[Bambinothegreat]

Sword Fsmash does 31%

holy crap

 

[meleebrawler]

holy crap

Can someone compare this to a hit closer to the hilt to confirm if there's a difference in damage?

Edit: Nvm. However I'm curious what points of the blade count as the "tip".