Ganondorf bottom again?

[Robertzombie2]

https://game8.jp/matome/14157


/sad panda

 

[Riskman]

Pretty much this part of this in response to that.

 

[Robertzombie2]

yes I agree its too early for that but I think you guys might be interested in seeing it

 

[The Shadow Emperor]

It won't bother me if the list remains that way. Ganny being low-tier makes winning with him all the more satisfying.

 

[Riskman]

yes I agree its too early for that but I think you guys might be interested in seeing it

Any tier list at this point in time though is really just opinion (though you could argue that this is what tier lists are in the first place), I've seen like 5 and they're all completely different. None of them are going to be even relatively close to how the characters turn out so I wouldn't think anything of them for a good, long while. Though you're right, still interesting (Sonic up so high while Palutena down at the bottom what)

 

[Knight Dude]

Way too early to go off talking about tiers. You'd think we'd wait a year or two, or even a few months before any major judgments are actually made.

Having said that, my impressions from what I've seen of Ganon, I don't think he'll be at the bottom. He seems much better. But those are only first impressions. So of course, it doesn't hold much stock.

 

[meleebrawler]

Not to be racist or stereotypical, but...

Don't japanese players prefer aggressive playstyles?
I remember that they banned Sagat in some Street Fighter games cuz he was too
good at zoning.

Their preference seems to be characters who can easily mount an offensive.

 

[Thinkaman]

This was a results list, not a tier list. It is representative of the characters actually used at the events, not hypothetical potential based on years of meta-game analysis.

Edit: A small group of players each played a single 2-stock 1v1 as each character, and graded each character on a converted scale of 1-10. It was very simple and unscientific; the people responsible urged those who read this to not take it too seriously, and that it was just for fun and to begin the discussion.

Edit 2: Also, no custom moves. Literally ever bottom character listed has better custom moves for 1v1s, disproportionately better than most characters.

 

[Merkabo]

Who cares about this Tier nonsense. There is no tier for badassery. Tiers are for lower beings who don't have the mind to contemplate true skill. They make a rudimentary decision to group certain characters together and decide who they'll play based off of this. It's HERESY.

 

[Daeyrat]

Some importants points
1 - too early to do a tier list. Way too esrly. Maybe in 2 months we can start a beta one.
2 - he may be bottom. He s not designed for 1x1. He s more of a free for all or even team fighter.
3 - comparing default and custom moves, his default moveset is not optimal for 1x1. He may be better with customs.
4 - being bottom is not a problem as longs as the overall matchup values are tolerable
5 - being a top tier killer grants points. I dont know if this is the case now, but supposing bowser is top and ganon is antibowser, points to ganon

 

[O D I N]

From what I've played so far (got the game two days ago. Someone accidentally broke street date! ), Ganondorf feels a lot better than Brawl, but no where near Melee Ganondorf. He doesn't feel bottom tier at all. Although according that list, neither does Robin. I friggin' love that guy.

 

[Daeyrat]

It seems his hitbox priority got higher. Now he collides instead of simply being hit out of his moves. His Ftilt kicks summons easily too. Gordos, freesbees etc

 

[SmashBro99]

I don't care about tier lists, I play who I like. Plus that list is way too early and I'm not taking it seriously, no one else should btw.

Being a heavier character in a game that takes longer to KO someone, and he can't be edge hogged anymore..and that rage mechanic. He'll be fine

 

[Z1GMA]

Remember. Both Zelda and Olimar were Middle Tier in the first Brawl-list.

 

[Hydde]

And where they ended?. Zelda was lo right?. And Oli? i heard he was good. At least i always had trouble fighting him.

 

[Z1GMA]

And where they ended?. Zelda was lo right?. And Oli? i heard he was good. At least i always had trouble fighting him.

Olimar ended up as the third best character in the game, and Zelda ended up as the second worst.

 

[Sykkamorre]

I highly doubt the validity of this.
Luigi being bottom? Lolno.

And with no customs being used, like half of some chars potential is completely ignored.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

I've been having a lot of success with Ganon in for glory mode. I have probably > 80% win rate with him so far. You just need to utilize his tilts effectively.

Also his neutral B has super armor, so its actually sortve viable now. Ive broken a shield with an accidental uptilt too. No idea where the complaints about how bad he is is coming from honestly.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I highly doubt the validity of this.
Luigi being bottom? Lolno.

And with no customs being used, like half of some chars potential is completely ignored.

Just ignore any tier lists that come out before EVO 2015. Even then, just remember that both the Melee and Brawl tier lists were very much in flux for years, and Melee could still be given some recent placings from Yoshi and Pikachu.

 

[toadster101]

Ganondorf isn't that bad. People just suck at using him.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Ganondorf is pretty terrible from what I've been able to see of him. He may very well be the worst again, his only competition is Zelda but at least Zelda has an OK recovery. Unless there's some super awesome exploit we're not seeing... Ganondorf is trash once again, and more than likely the worst.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it, either. He has no ability to approach and he is slow in every sense of the word. When even a somewhat non-campy and slowish character like Link can camp him and do somersaults around him, it's just not looking good for the man in green.

 

[SmashAdr]

yes his so damn slow its ********

 

[D-idara]

Ganondorf is pretty terrible from what I've been able to see of him. He may very well be the worst again, his only competition is Zelda but at least Zelda has an OK recovery. Unless there's some super awesome exploit we're not seeing... Ganondorf is trash once again, and more than likely the worst.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it, either. He has no ability to approach and he is slow in every sense of the word. When even a somewhat non-campy and slowish character like Link can camp him and do somersaults around him, it's just not looking good for the man in green.

"His only competition is Zelda" Oh lord, you people, you silly people who haven't seen Zelda being perfectly viable. Also, I really doubt Ganondorf's the worst, he doesn't look high-tier, but he's definitely a huge step up from Brawl.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

"His only competition is Zelda" Oh lord, you people, you silly people who haven't seen Zelda being perfectly viable. Also, I really doubt Ganondorf's the worst, he doesn't look high-tier, but he's definitely a huge step up from Brawl.

In Brawl he was almost unplayable, it was just bad rushed programming. But he's not much better in this one. He is playable but he doesn't benefit much from the new engine. To the people saying, you just got to know how to use him... well, in Melee he was one of the easiest characters to use and play well with, until you couldn't take him any further. In this one he's really difficult to play (landing his dair is still not nearly as seamless as it was in Melee) and even if you play him well, I don't think you'll be able to go very far.

And Zelda lol... slow and predictable as always. Why they added that down B move that does nothing for her, I have no idea. She needed something and that was not it.

 

[Weeman]

In Brawl he was almost unplayable, it was just bad rushed programming. But he's not much better in this one. He is playable but he doesn't benefit much from the new engine. To the people saying, you just got to know how to use him... well, in Melee he was one of the easiest characters to use and play well with, until you couldn't take him any further. In this one he's really difficult to play (landing his dair is still not nearly as seamless as it was in Melee) and even if you play him well, I don't think you'll be able to go very far.

And Zelda lol... slow and predictable as always. Why they added that down B move that does nothing for her, I have no idea. She needed something and that was not it.

Are you kidding me? Zelda's buffed! Din's fire is one of the best tools for spacing and edgeguarding, her aerials are really strong when you sweetspot them and the down B is actually useful, is just that people try to spam it when that wasn't it's intended use, that's what's Din's fire is for.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Are you kidding me? Zelda's buffed! Din's fire is one of the best tools for spacing and edgeguarding, her aerials are really strong when you sweetspot them and the down B is actually useful, is just that people try to spam it when that wasn't it's intended use, that's what's Din's fire is for.

It's the same Zelda as always. She's never not hit like a mac truck. She is strong when the other person is not familar with her at all. But she can't combo. She can't control space. That down B just takes forever, it is embarrassing, it doesn't hit for crap and her neutral already served some of the same function, only better. Her best move was always down B, and they replaced it with the turtle warrior.

 

[Kenith]

Tier lists are irrelevant in this game because it can be patched.
Or, rather, any one tier list will become obsolete a lot faster than before.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's the same Zelda as always. She's never not hit like a mac truck. She is strong when the other person is not familar with her at all. But she can't combo. She can't control space. That down B just takes forever, it is embarrassing, it doesn't hit for crap and her neutral already served some of the same function, only better. Her best move was always down B, and they replaced it with the turtle warrior.

Zelda in this game actually has viable KO setups at long range, a usable grab, and an excellent recovery.

Zelda is likely a viable character. She survives pretty long because Up-B is good at getting her out of traps and is great for recovery in this game. And in this game, it's basically like if you're at 100%, and Zelda knows exactly where and when you are landing, you are DEAD because she has a ton of really good ways of land trapping when Up-B is a KO move.

She also has one of the best Jabs and D-tilts in the game, a F-smash that is safe on powershield, and great throws.

 

[Ffamran]

I thought this thread was about Ganondorf? Why are we talking about Zel- oh, wait. Never mind. The Legend of Zelda...

Anyway, Ganondorf, Ike, Marth, and a couple of other character which includes Little Mac aren't like the rest of the cast. Marth must choose between tippers and regular attacks. Little Mac must keep opponents from getting him into the air and keeping them locked down on the ground. Ike fights well at sword-length and can't swing wildly; he has to time and judge his distances. Ganondorf's like Ike in that way. They're all defensive fighters compared to Fox, Link, Sheik, Samus, etc. They're not rush-down, zoners, spacers, or mind-gamers. You're not going to see a boxer jump in and swing haymakers. Boxers play it safe, counter fast, whittle you down, and land that hit that nobody's coming back from. Guys with giant weapons never swing without reason unless they're a handsome devil named Dante or your typical shonen character or someone named Zack-not-Cloud.

 

[greatbernard]

The meta is still young...

Though I wouldn't doubt that Ganondorf is bottom tier again.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

I played ganon today and was very disappointed. Literally no buffs from brawl and is just too slow and cant autocancel dair. He felt low tier

 

[Ffamran]

I played ganon today and was very disappointed. Literally no buffs from brawl and is just too slow and cant autocancel dair. He felt low tier

Really? Because from what people are saying and seeing, he's stronger and his attacks are faster compared to Brawl.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Zelda in this game actually has viable KO setups at long range, a usable grab, and an excellent recovery.

Zelda is likely a viable character. She survives pretty long because Up-B is good at getting her out of traps and is great for recovery in this game. And in this game, it's basically like if you're at 100%, and Zelda knows exactly where and when you are landing, you are DEAD because she has a ton of really good ways of land trapping when Up-B is a KO move.

You could say that about any character with a powerful move though. If an opponent knows when and where you are landing, then you're obviously not taking advantage of all the things you can do defensively. I mean we have vectoring as a thing now, you have a LOT of control over the space in which you fly. The thing is if Zelda THINKS she "knows where and when someone is landing"and misses with one of her moves... she's incredibly vulnerable, and for a long time. There's nothing quick about her. This is a big drawback. My problem with Zelda is not that she can't kill... it's that if you miscalculate with her for even for a second, you're in serious trouble. You can't bail for a long time, her moves are so easily punished like that. That's not the case with a lot of great characters in the game. This is a trait of a bad character.

Really? Because from what people are saying and seeing, he's stronger and his attacks are faster compared to Brawl.

In Brawl Ganon was on the cusp of being unplayable. Like if there was a platformer with that Ganondorf as the main character and there were no other characters... people would play it and think the game was released unfinished, that's how bad he was. Ganon is not this bad this time... but he's not really closing the gap that much either. He is still not as fluid and easy to pick up as he was in Melee, that's for sure.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

So many naysayers here, you guys are just bad at Ganon. Im rocking a 2.15 K/D ratio in for glory mode right now (153 kills 71 deaths) I've won the vast majority of my matches. No idea what you guys are whining about.

 

[Vermanubis]

Well, not to undermine your accomplishment, my friend, but For Glory's unfortunatey not a stellar example of character prowess, simply because I personally played about 100 matches yesterday alone, and maybe 7 of my matches were against half-decent players whose main tactics extended beyond rolling and smashing.

Though I completely agree with your sentiment. Ganon can still kick some ass. But to be honest, yes, I think as a character he's worse than he was in Brawl. He may very well perform better thanks to the new game engine though. Here are some very, very preliminary reasons why I think he might we overall worse:

-Has extreme trouble killing against players who aren't wreckless. His KO power is actually pretty low. He has a higher volume of good KO moves, but many of these are very unreliable (FAir, DAir, etc), save for BAir, FAir (sometimes) and FTilt. DTilt takes a while to kill - so do dash attack and FAir. No DAir makes mistakes in Ganon's space far less costly, and so forth. It's a similar issue as in Brawl: most of his damage-racking moves are also his kill moves. So by the time they're in KO percentages, Ganon's got mold growing on his moveset.

I still plan on using him, and I hope many others do as well. But regardless of where he is in relation to others, with our current knowledge set, I don't think it's likely he'll be winning tournaments regularly. Not to say he's mid, low, bottom, or whatever. I'm just saying that in contrast to his Brawl counterpart, he may be worse, but overall better by virtue of new mechanics.

 

[Shog]

Ganondorf saving grace are the custom moves, I am certain that custom moves will be allowed, unleashing Ganons Full Power (Like seriously, how is the normal punch better than the sword with more range and superarmor! It still has nearly the same ko power like his smashes, too.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm still definitely gonna hold my tongue a bit, since the experience I have is with an admittedly terrible control scheme.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Problem is, your argument is hypothetical, I have the data that shows that Ganon isn't bottom trash tier at sub pro levels...
People are acting like you can't win games, yet ive yet to play a match where I say "wow ganon is just bad so I lost"

Anyway, I mostly use NAir, jab, dtilt, and upair to build up damage, then ftilt fair and bair for kills. It's not hard to diversify your moveset while you build damage so that your kill moves still have power (especially with only 2 stocks)

 

[Vermanubis]

Of course it's hypothetical

What I'm saying is that, in my sample, For Glory isn't always an accurate measure of a match-up, since a majority of people there are likely new to the game. Not saying I don't agree, because I do agree that Ganon is still a terror! But rather, the notion that a good For Glory record on the first day is permissible data in regard to Ganon's viability.

 

[warionumbah2]

The lower the better, when i wreck you high tier scrubs it'll make you feel more bad about yourselves.