Ganon vs.

[Thomas Tipman]

Yoshi, DK, Ice climbers, Kirby, and Pichu i have little to no experience with so i couldnt tell much.

i know a bit of DK and he cant really juggle ganon well with his uair and his recovery screams spike me. he can be annoying with bair, bair but uair can capitalize on DK's bair. i would think ganon has the advantage but im not sure indefinetly.

my experiences with Yoshi are plenty but poorly. by that i mean i played my bros yoshi a ton but he isnt so awsome at the game (unless all yoshi players get 4 stocked by ganon).

Pichu would probably get striaght up owned. his uair isnt a kick in the balls like Pikachu and he is lighter. of course im just speculating since no body has used Pichu on me.

IC's can probably be annoying but Ganon can just kick the sisters *** quick and leave the other one ****tin his pants (once again just speculating).

Kirby may be kinda tough but ive done the ownage on one who isnt awsome but better than my bro. i wouldnt take to heart the ability my friends Kirby has to be on the level of most, but its enough to see the potential problems Kirby might have. though his edge guarding can be almost as bad as Jiggs.

the Marios are a bit questional in my mind, i went to that tourney and played 2 Docs. One was with Ganon and i ended up winning with 3 stock left over, the other with Jiggs i won with 2 left over. even though Jiggs doesnt account for Ganon i noticed Doc main kill move (fair) was too slow in comparison of Ganons uair. the only problem i had was edge guarding cause that stupid hitbox surrounds doc and saves his ***. im sure if i could edge guard more properly i would have killed him faster.

im lucky that i play Peach every other day and i think ganon might have it slightly up on her, but at times its like dash attack, dash attack, grab .....=OWNAGE. i combo her with auto-cancels reverse uairs to ftilt and i found pivoting to kill her DA attempts since Ganon leans back enough so he's out of range (and her floatyness doesnt help as she is flying upward most the time). there is alot in this match up that can happen but ive been doing well against her so i could only go by that. i also only play the same Peach player so i can only collect my experience from one source (which almost always never depicts the majority). i say use her traction to your advantage with reverse uair (you'd be surprised how good that works) and pivots can help own. also if you thunderpuch her DA you should get a free thunder puch after the first one "clanks" due to her lag and the lack of yours.

 

[Deleted member]

about 2 parts fo that list I disagree with 2.

1 Mewtwo combos Ganon to garbage and Ganon is hard pressed to do so back or get a solid move off even.

2 I think Ganon's ftilt and upair do awesome on samux enough to beat her. Just those 2 moves. Really good.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

what would you suggest their placement be then?

mewtwo is light, huge, and kinda slow. the only problems ive had was with his grab range, other than that dtilt pops him off the ground easy since he's light and uair usually follows. since ganons bair can go through mewtwos fair or nair i would think he has more domonance in the air. mewtwo may be able to do some damage to ganon but me personally dont see how he can have an advantage on ganon, maybe i could be over estimating how much ganon has on him. but from what ive experienced and seen its an uphill battle for mewtwo.

samus is just like peach to me in the sense that i could be ownin and out of the blue get comboed up the ***. her recovery, weight, and edge guarding are great. CC dtilt = ganon getting comboed and since samus is slightly heavier than ganon its not gonna be tough. her jump speed and nair can give you a hard time in the air. i agree than ganon has what it takes to beat her but sometimes (like peach) you can just get comboed to heck.

 

[maximuspita]

Hey mow, while your stopping by our thread what's it going to take for you o spill it on M2's cancels? Come man, Im racking my brain here, so please?

Moving on. I've never had a problem with M2's grab range since he slides so much after being pushed away from my attack(and his grab range totally inferior to marth's) Though I believe that M2 has potential, right I think all M2 has are gimmicks he cant completely rely on. Sure you might take him by suprise at first but once the jig is up, M2 has little to nothing to fall back and recoupe. Though I would like it if you could elaborate on how m2 puts the beatdown on gannon, mow, they're not exactly trade secrets right :D ?

 

[Deleted member]

mostly downthrow stuff. Even if they DI and tech M2's WD is easily fast enough to catch them every time, whether you choose to usesomething else or another grab. However, Ganon's dtilt is nasty so I prefer another grab. Ganon is also particularly easy to spike, even right through the edge. But whatever.

Only Ganon I haven't beaten is Raffy's and that was really really close. Maybe it's just me. You might be able to IM him and ask him more from the Ganondorf side. He's online pretty often.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

Originally posted by UmbreonMow

Only Ganon I haven't beaten is Raffy's and that was really really close. Maybe it's just me. You might be able to IM him and ask him more from the Ganondorf side. He's online pretty often.

only ganon? thats pretty crazy, i never thought mewtwo had what it takes to beat ganon.

 

[Deleted member]

well if you stick to the purple attacks then yeah he dies. If you stick to tails and make sure to play pretty quick, M2 might just pull a fast one on ya.

If you're Ganon Vs Mewtwo, you're best best is to WD in and back to foward tilt. Mewtwo can't defend against it. And he can abuse anything else you do.

Yeah, CCs, over and down tilts. I'm not sure if Ganon can downthrow chain....but then again I've never been grabbed by a Ganon player...

 

[TestRider]

Mewtwo owning Ganon? I can't figure how you'd manage to get around the forward tilt and up air spamming. Really, you get close to Ganon on the ground, he kicks you away, you approach him from the air, he short hops to up air. And I'm not even getting into the fair (which I've seen KOing Mewtwo at pitifully low damage).
About the spiking thing, Ganon can't grab onto the edge without leaving himself vulnerable to pretty much any edgeguarding move anyway, so spiking him would be a waste of effort when you could simply wait for him by the edge and down smash him as he comes around.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

i cant see how mewtwo can give it to ganon, my friend has been playing a bit of mewtwo and he can barely get 2 stocks off of me. i gotta play that mewtwo of your umbreon mow so i can see what a skilled mewtwo can do.

there hasnt been much discussion on level advantages, i find that battle field and multi platform levels can benefit ganon versus space animal, peach, samus, and im sure a few other chars but when i play marth he usually benefits more from these types of stages. any body know any good counter stages for marth or stages (like battlefield) that marth could use against ganon?

EDIT: i changed the list a bit and ive been playing really good marios lately and i feel that ganon has it. range, weight, power, and with some learning a nasty edge guard on them. i just feel ganon has alot to kill mario and mario just falls slighty behind. doc IMO does worst than mario and thats only because his recovery isnt as great as marios but their game is real similar. if you think other wise feel free to speak your mind if not *high five*.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

just made a few counterstage updates, any objections just speak.

 

[maximuspita]

Apparently there isn't any Ganon-love around ever anymore since he got placed between the Mario clones. Thomas, WE NEED THAT COMBO VID ASAP.

Anyways, I'm suprised you didn't considered Yoshi Story as a counterstage. I honestly have done best at Yoshi Story due to the fact that Ganon's knockback actually REALLY compensates for his recovery, he reaches anywhere from a SH and he can get around quite fast with just land wave-dash. You might also DI towards the platforms since they're so close together, you might avoid extensive damage; somebody please confirm this since I wouldn't know if Ganon bounces high enough to tech of the platform.

EDIT: Heh Heh, I sorta skimmed over the list and didn't notice the Falco counterstage, jokes on me . Though Peach is iffy on YS, spamming d-smash gets her nowhere and proper spacing should give Ganon the upper hand. What do you think?

 

[dmac]

after playing extensively vs an elite captain falcon, i've come to realize that the only reason to play ganon vs falcon is if you wanna be embarassed.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

i missed yoshi story? oops, gotta fix that.

yeah the love is dying, but its all good. i actually just stopped even messing with the vid cause i thought the love was gone (ill get back to it). it wasnt really gonna be a combo vid but more of a how to vid (reverse uairs, WD, yada, yada, yada) but ill try making it a little bit of both.

YS with peach is odd, cause peach could do alot of float canceled dairs on the stage and land on a platform and dsmash. though ganons power is undeniable he can just squeeze in a few hits and end it for her. the shy guys have messed me up occasionally but thatnks not really a big deal i think its peaches dash attack that can make her own some platform stages. she can dash attack, pop you up and follow up real well. when she is above platforms she can dsmash and below them she can usmash/float uair/up B. though i havent had as much trouble in YS as i have had in FoD with peach i would think that level will suit her well. i think you might be right it may not be fully counter stage material but she does well in it (from my experiences atleast).

EDIT:dmac: yeah c.falcon can tear ganon up but it isnt a one way match ganon can do some nastyness to c.falcon aswell.

 

[maximuspita]

Yes, Falcon is definitely the better char but that doesn't mean Ganon can't duke it out with him. Ganon can combo Falcon just as well as falcon can combo Ganon; just not across the entire stage. Again both of their recovery suck and I believe that Ganon has the a slight advantage edgeguarding, Strongest meteor smash in the game and 2 spikes, while Falcon has ... *sighs* who am I trying to kid, he can smite you too.

I guess you'll have to play really smart to come over the top cough chain grab till death cough.

About the stages I tend to not prefer DL64. It's a great stage but I sometimes feel limited by Ganon's speed, but now that I land wdash more often it isn't as much of an issue anymore. Still many characters can take advantage of the the stage's limits while basically ****** your recovery. It IS a nice stage to fight in but unless you are fighting somebody with a crappy recovery then you shouldn't counterpick this stage (unless you feel confident here then by all means...).

 

[Thomas Tipman]

well DL64 is again not much of a counter stage but a stage that ganon could do good against marth. its the only platform stage where marth cant tipper you with a fsmash and the platforms break up fair juggles when you tech on them. ive always felt that once an opponent is off the stage (vs ganon) they should ever comeback without being followed up by a grab or air. ganon has awsome edgeguarding versus marth so the length of the stage may not let you kill him easy but the edge guard will.

ill put "*" next to the stages that arent full counter stages but good choices if other are gone. ill also list the stages from best to worst

ex.
best
better
good
ok*

 

[maximuspita]

Ah, I see what you mean there. Yeah it might probably be the best stage to fight marth seeing that his major advantages against Ganon are slightly decreased while Ganon isn't affected as much. Good call.

Do you have know of any stages to counter Fox? Seriously, Ganon needs one.

Forgot to also ask for a counterstage for Link, it is a sensitive subject because I usually feel that where Ganon does good, Link fares even better.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

once again DL64 is a good choice due to the high ceilings and occationally the platforms can break some devestationg uair comboes. i also seem to like FoD versus fox since it keeps him close and ganon can do little hits to get him off stage.

 

[maximuspita]

I would also consider DK64 and Jungle Japes good stages to fight against Fox; no sweetspotting on the former makes edge guarding Fox a snap. They also both have high ceilings but only DK64 saves you from Uair combos.

But what about Link? Any thoughts on counterstages?

 

[Thomas Tipman]

DK64 actually seems quite good (gotta try this out), alot of the layout seems to benefit ganon.

jungle japes....im not to sure about, i remember my bros yoshi and my fox owning that level due to the water. yoshis dtilt/dsmash can get you taken with the current aswell as foxes shine. though if he is forced to use his up B in the current its a free KO for ganon. the sides are short and ganon can always make use of that. the platform seems just about the right hieght to set some nasty dair combos. ill get these stages on the list ASAP but one question, do you really think jungle japes is a good counter stage?

its been a while since i played link but he seem to do real good in platform stages like pokem stadium and im sure jungle japes will be good for him aswell. i havent played too much link lately but i know ive gotten a bit of a spanking on pokemon stadium.

for samus i like using battle feild since it limits her recovery options and the level size keeps he from running and gunning.

 

[SynikaL]

Originally posted by maximuspita
Ganon can combo Falcon just as well as falcon can combo Ganon; just not across the entire stage.

I guess you'll have to play really smart to come over the top cough chain grab till death cough.

How does Ganon combo Falcon well? Falcon, being a fast faller, doesn't lend himself well to being juggled if his opponent doesn't have the means (read: an up tilt). And you definitely can't be talking about throw setups--you get nothing but tech follow ups at low percentages.


And Falcon can't chain grab Ganon, if Ganon knows how to DI.



-Syn

 

[maximuspita]

I really just threw in Jungle Japes because of the high ceiling and the small boundaries but I haven't thought about the shine spike problems you might encounter. Perhaps if you try to keep the fight on the right side of the stage you may use the current to your advantage but I am unsure of the result (cant remember being shined in here). I guess its an ok stage to fight but nothing really counter-rific; Ill have to research a little bit.

No Link info? **** I was hopping for some help, but I guess I'll have to figure it out myself.

Synikal, I thought the Gerudo dragon owned fast-fallers but I guess that move is crap and you cant chain anything with it, therefore explaining Ganon's complete weakness when he does 40% for free and finish it with any aerial for some edge-guarding.

 

[SynikaL]

Sounds like a great practice mode combo. Now try it on someone that knows what the concept of DI is.


-Kimosabae

 

[Thomas Tipman]

i think gerudo dragon would probably work once, twice at the max before DI becomes a problem. though it is good to knock c.falcon in the air where he is less threatening (due to the lack on air mobility cause he was knocked in the air instead of jumping himself).

 

[maximuspita]

Yeah, I probably was on ADHD mode at the time but honestly it is still a great move to use against c falcon.

Things I noticed while messing around:

The most reliable combo on the c.falcon is d-air to 2 gerudo dragon followed by any aerial. Trick to landing the gerudo dragons is to d-air pretty late so when you pull the first gd, the captain can't tech it. The captain also has to have some damage (preferably 15%) in order to have a successful combo. You can also replace the GD's with d-smash but that is unreliable because of the weird knockback that is dependant on the placing.

After the first GD you can turn over and grab to spice things up
and chain grab a little.

At around 60-70% if you land a d-tilt falcon eats a f-air regardless of DI. Yeah there's more but Im tired and tipsy right now.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

well i find upthrow jab to work best at low percents and the beauty of it is occasionally you can follow up with an other upthrow jab depending on the situation. against c.falcons speed and jumps speed its tough to try to fight him in the air so personally i like to out beat his air attacks on the ground and go in the air only when there is enough lag that ganon could take advantage of. also crossing over airs to jab/tilts works great on c.falcon.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

oops

 

[Thomas Tipman]

sorry for the bump...

but since ive updated a bit and plan to update some more soon i was hoping to get some more convo started on ganons match ups (i know a few of you are interested in cfalcon vs ganon.... SPEAK UP). check out the first page for the updates, its not drastic but youll see a little here and there.

 

[Omnigamer]

*Stamp of approval*

Just be sure to update things regularly.

 

[Titan44]

I've been doing more of that Cpt.Falcon match-up, and I seriously don't see how any of you think that fight is anywhere close to being even. It feels a lot like fighting a Ganon with Bowser or something like that. Sure, you'll probably get in a few good hits here and there, but it doesn't matter because he essentially does everything you do but better. I've been playing on the instinctively over-aggressive nature of most Falcons, but that obviously leads to the question of "what am I gonna do when I find a patient one?". Right now I just kinda try to put some space between us (hard) and runaway with B-airs (even harder), and then I try to catch him by throwing out early N/F-airs (no fast fall). It works fairly well, but relies too heavily on the Falcon ****ing up. Not much of a strategy IMO.

Doing tech traps with d-smash is is kinda nice, but you have to trick the other guy into rolling towards you, and there's never really a reason for Falcon to roll towards you. Big damage if he does though. Other than that, I'm not feeling Ganon's ground game too much in this fight. Trying to jab aerials doesn't add up in terms of risk vs. reward, and tilts aren't really fast enough to help IMO. Plus even if you hit him, all you're doing is reseting the match in terms of positioning. One of Ganon's biggest pros as a character is being able to force himself onto most characters, and Falcon is just too fast for that to work. I can't find a "good" way to fight this match-up, which is a problem I don't have with any other character really.

 

[SynikaL]

I don't think you payed enough attention to the things me and Tip suggested in the other threads. I mean, trying to jab his aerials? Come on.



-Syn

 

[Titan44]

Jab is one of Ganon's best moves in almost every other match-up, and I was commenting on how it doesn't work against Falcon. Try reading next time.

But since you brought it up, I'm reading throught that other thread right now. So far I've seen Tipman post stuff on tilts (already mentioned in my last post), >+B combos vs people that don't DI, and some combo that requires landing a stomp on Falcon? None of that sounds useful at all to me. You wrote something about taking advantage of Falcons being aggressive (ZOMG?), and how Falcon death combos are overrated? Thanks for the words of wisdom, chief . I'll keep on digging though.

EDIT - Finished reading. This is the conversation where you guys started talking about pivoting jabs/tilts to beat out aerials after a B-air, isn't it? You really do need to read before you post

 

[Thomaz]

Never forget, reverse Uair ***** Falcons recovery. *****, I tell you. Get them off with a few Uairs = a free stock unless you screw up.

 

[MookieRah]

Tipman, you CANNOT shield-grab Falco nor Fox if they L-cancel their move and shine right as it ends.

I know this was said way way way earlier in the thread, but I would like to clear some of this stuff up, although what I am saying is not about ganon, although I am 99% sure that it would still apply to him.

You can grab a dairing Falco before they can shine IF they hit the top of your sheild. As Mewtwo, this is one of the few grab oppertunities I can get on a Falco. Since Mewtwo is so tall (and so is ganon) he recovers from the sheild stun fast enough to catch him before his l-cancel is over if the dair hit his shield at around the head area. However; if they hit anywhere below that, there isn't much you can do about it. I dunno the frame data for Mewtwo's grab so I don't know if it is faster or slower than ganon's (Mewtwo's might be a lil faster, but this is just a guestimation from memory) so like I said, it may *still* not apply, but I am thinking it would.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

But since you brought it up, I'm reading throught that other thread right now. So far I've seen Tipman post stuff on tilts (already mentioned in my last post), >+B combos vs people that don't DI, and some combo that requires landing a stomp on Falcon? None of that sounds useful at all to me.

ok the foward B thing is a set up, youre bound to get an extra attack after doing that move. dair is friggin great set up that can be linked into a dsmash which can be deadly and give you a free air. now its not like youre gonna be dairing ever cfalcon you play but it doesnt mean its impossible.

reverse uair is crazy good, what i like to do (thanks to syn ) is if you catch them off the stage at low percents and you start getting them in multipule uairs, bair them as soo as they give up on sweet spotting then set up the uairs again or if they keep trying to sweet spot edge hog.

oh and titan just to clear something up, this match up i see cfalcon taking it but i dont see ganon just completely getting owned (taking into account the different levels for this match up and not just FD... cause ganon is low tier on that level ). the way i see it is who ever gets a stage that favors them has a great advantage.

mookie i already had the frame data posted and ive seen falco get sheild grabbed by ganon alot in tournies. i hate falcos. **** all falcos to HELL! oh and mookie let me get some mewtwo tips ive beaten some decent players but i lost to a G&W. i hate G&W. **** all G&Ws to HELL!

 

[MookieRah]

G&W ***** up on Mewtwo man. I can't really help you on that though, because the only time I have played a good one was at FC3. You prolly have more experience against G&W than I do.

 

[SynikaL]

Titan44:

In order to preserve the civility in this thread, I'm going to attempt to be as courteous as possible in exposing how much of a fvcktard you look like when you post. Afterall, Tip's my boy.

First off, the dogmatic nature of your response was unnecessary -- I was trying to help you.

Secondly, you're not clever, you're not witty. Stop trying to exhibit these traits over the internet, it only makes you look like more of a loser at life.


Whoops.

Jab is one of Ganon's best moves in almost every other match-up, and I was commenting on how it doesn't work against Falcon. Try reading next time.

You were commenting on how it doesn't work against Falcon? This is what you said:

Trying to jab aerials doesn't add up in terms of risk vs. reward

This obviously implys you've been trying to jab his aerials..which is stupid. Ganon's jab is best used in zoning and spacing characters and Falcon's no different. Space him properly and follow up with jabs or reverse jabs on block (Bair). If you come up short on an aerial jab him. Basic Ganon stuff.

But since you brought it up, I'm reading throught that other thread right now. So far I've seen Tipman post stuff on tilts (already mentioned in my last post),

Yeah, you mentioned them -- you said they weren't useful which is complete and utterly wrong. Ganon's foward tilt will trade blows or outproritize the majority of Falcon's SHFFL game if spaced properly. Learn to angle them. Learn to pivot them. Then learn to angle-pivot them. Falcon's going to be forced to stay on the ground more if he's constantly eating angled f. tilts everytime he SHFFL's and that gives Ganon more room to work. His ground game is better than Falcon's.

>+B combos vs people that don't DI

Nice.

People don't DI everything guy, because people normally aren't looking to get hit in the first place. This isn't a grab follow up we're talking about here, it's a single attack. At around 20-30% Dair - Foward B - to an aerial works if the person misses the Dair DI input which is likely. People rarely DI single attacks unless they see it coming from a mile away and they're not in an ideal postition to avoid getting hit.

You wrote something about taking advantage of Falcons being aggressive (ZOMG?)

ZOMG, sounds so obvious, yet you obviously don't know how to exploit it. And to correct you, I didn't use the term "aggressive" I stated "capatalizing on his eagerness to get in is so easy", there's a big difference here. Trying to get Ganon to "force himself" on Falcon,, as you stated, obviously doesn't work. So if you know how to take advantage of Falcon's over zealous play style, why are you having problems?

Goad Falcon into thinking you're open and punish him. Space him well. With Ganon's superior range this isn't that hard. You said you'd jump backwards to Bair, that's good. Backwards to Fair is good. Nair is bad. It has no range (the actual hitbox for it only extends to his knee caps), Falcon's SHFFL game pwns it. Also, this is were the importance of knowing how to use his foward tilt comes in.

and how Falcon death combos are overrated?

Trying to pull my statements out of context yet again? Shame on you. Falcon death combos on Ganon are overrated. If the Ganon knows how to DI Falcon's throw setups, there's really nothing Falcon can do to him that he can't do to 80% of the rest of the cast.

DIT - Finished reading. This is the conversation where you guys started talking about pivoting jabs/tilts to beat out aerials after a B-air, isn't it? You really do need to read before you post

Who the hell said anything about "pivoting jabs"? Why the hell would I want to pivot a jab with Ganon? What idiocy.

And stop ending all your half-***** arguments with "you should read". It's an obvious attempt at covering your own *** when you say something stupid and I can see right through it. That and you obviously have a hard time with the activity yourself.


-Syn
(now tell me in your response there's no useful info in that post)

 

[SynikaL]

*delete*


-Kimosabae

 

[Titan44]

Tipman:

ok the foward B thing is a set up, youre bound to get an extra attack after doing that move. dair is friggin great set up that can be linked into a dsmash which can be deadly and give you a free air. now its not like youre gonna be dairing ever cfalcon you play but it doesnt mean its impossible.

I try to avoid using >+B against fast characters because of it's terrible recovery and priority. Yeah, you get something nice if it hits, but you'll get ****ed up if it doesn't, which will probably happen more often than not against Falcon. And while I don't think d-air is useless against every Falcon in the world, I don't remember the last time I landed one on our Falcon.

oh and titan just to clear something up, this match up i see cfalcon taking it but i dont see ganon just completely getting owned (taking into account the different levels for this match up and not just FD... cause ganon is low tier on that level ). the way i see it is who ever gets a stage that favors them has a great advantage.

I agree that he doesn't just lose for free, but people seem to be making it out to be a lot easier than it is. Not every stage is nearly as bad as someplace like FD, but I can't really think of anyplace where Ganon has a big advantage. Small stages might be great for him against most Falcons, but the better Falcons don't have much trouble handling themselves, even without a ton of room to move.

Syn:

In order to preserve the civility in this thread, I'm going to attempt to be as courteous as possible in exposing how much of a fvcktard you look like when you post. Afterall, Tip's my boy.

First off, the dogmatic nature of your response was unnecessary -- I was trying to help you.

Secondly, you're not clever, you're not witty. Stop trying to exhibit these traits over the internet, it only makes you look like more of a loser at life.

j00 sure pwned me w/ da senzor bypazz. How old are you again?

As for you trying to help me, I thought I just pointed out how useless that "advice" was? What Falcons do you play against?

This obviously implys you've been trying to jab his aerials..which is stupid. Ganon's jab is best used in zoning and spacing characters and Falcon's no different. Space him properly and follow up with jabs or reverse jabs on block (Bair). If you come up short on an aerial jab him. Basic Ganon stuff.

I think I'd have to try it to know that it doesn't work (prolly doen based on the advice in that thread, I might add). This doesn't take a lot of experience to figure out. And please, stop throwing around these terms like "zoning" as if you know what you're talking about. You don't zone people with short-range moves. That's called poking. Also, I'd like to know how you force this mystical spacing on the fastest character in the game using one of the slowest.

Yeah, you mentioned them -- you said they weren't useful which is complete and utterly wrong. Ganon's foward tilt will trade blows or outproritize the majority of Falcon's SHFFL game if spaced properly. Learn to angle them. Learn to pivot them. Then learn to angle-pivot them. Falcon's going to be forced to stay on the ground more if he's constantly eating angled f. tilts everytime he SHFFL's and that gives Ganon more room to work. His ground game is better than Falcon's.

Again, you must be a wizard if you're getting this kinda of spacing on a Falcon with Ganon. What exactly don't you understand about him being MUCH faster than you? Do you seriously think trying to react to a SHFFL'ing Falcon with Ganon tilts is a good idea, or are you just throwing out all this stuff randomly as if the Falcon HAS to attack you once he gets into a certain range?

Nice.

People don't DI everything guy, because people normally aren't looking to get hit in the first place. This isn't a grab follow up we're talking about here, it's a single attack. At around 20-30% Dair - Foward B - to an aerial works if the person misses the Dair DI input which is likely. People rarely DI single attacks unless they see it coming from a mile away and they're not in an ideal postition to avoid getting hit.

"plus hes a fast faller so enjoy the fowardB combos till your friend starts DIing it." A quote from that thread. Personally, I assumed this was talking about using multiple >+Bs since he mentioned DI, but either way it doesn't matter, because >+B sucks for reasons already mentioned.

 

[Titan44]

ZOMG, sounds so obvious, yet you obviously don't know how to exploit it. And to correct you, I didn't use the term "aggressive" I stated "capatalizing on his eagerness to get in is so easy", there's a big difference here. Trying to get Ganon to "force himself" on Falcon,, as you stated, obviously doesn't work. So if you know how to take advantage of Falcon's over zealous play style, why are you having problems?

"I've been playing on the instinctively over-aggressive nature of most Falcons, but that obviously leads to the question of 'what am I gonna do when I find a patient one?'."

And then you wonder why I tell you to read. And no, I don't see much of a difference between being over-aggressive and eager to get in. If you're getting punished for trying to attack someone, that sounds like you're being overly aggressive to me.

Goad Falcon into thinking you're open and punish him. Space him well. With Ganon's superior range this isn't that hard. You said you'd jump backwards to Bair, that's good. Backwards to Fair is good. Nair is bad. It has no range (the actual hitbox for it only extends to his knee caps), Falcon's SHFFL game pwns it. Also, this is were the importance of knowing how to use his foward tilt comes in.

"It works fairly well, but relies too heavily on the Falcon ****ing up. Not much of a strategy IMO."

Trying to pull my statements out of context yet again? Shame on you. Falcon death combos on Ganon are overrated. If the Ganon knows how to DI Falcon's throw setups, there's really nothing Falcon can do to him that he can't do to 80% of the rest of the cast.

"Falcon's "death" combos on certain characters are overrated IMO. Some of his Nair crap especially, can get DI'd out of if you just know which directions to hold." Doesn't sound particularly specific or consistent, so I fail to see what makes you say I'm taking things out of context. But whatever.

Who the hell said anything about "pivoting jabs"? Why the hell would I want to pivot a jab with Ganon? What idiocy.

I meant reverse jabs/tilts after b-airs, but I'm sure you knew that already. But I can't blame you for calling me on my smash terminology. Guess you gotta get back at me somehow for calling you on all the stupid **** in your posts.

But yeah, I happen to have a relatively good track record against most Falcons, in the sense that I usually at least get them down to one or 2 stock if not take the match. But when I played KillaOR, he destroyed me by just being very patient. Playing SMART. As far as I know Ganon doesn't have a good way to counter that style of play, and noone here is suggesting anything different. You can't evaluate a match-up based solely on a dumb style that happens to work out in Ganon's favor.

 

[Titan44]

How about changing the subject. What do you do against a Marth that runs away with >+B repeatedly? Maybe it's just me, but Ganon doesn't really have any good options against that move, and Marth is a little too fast for him to keep up with. Plus it's not laggy enough for me to geta round the range and punish with double jump stuff.