Ganon vs.

[Thomas Tipman]

Originally posted by maximuspita
Anyways it seems that ganondorf doesn't has much problems against characters without projectiles , yet his worst matchups are those against chars with great projectiles: Falco, Link, Sheik, Samus, Peach (suppossedly). If so, then dealing against a pill-popping doc should provide some challenge. Any thoughts on the doc and dealing with the projectiles?

definetly not true, chars ganon has trouble with rarly depend on if they use projectiles (they call me Mr.Reflecto ). when ganon does get spanked by a char with projectiles there is a good chance the projectiles werent the main reason. chars such as fox, sheik, doc, mario, and samus are the few that i could think of that dont really need to utilize their projectiles as a main part of their game to do some damage.

doc and mario i find them to be the toughest to play against. uptilts to uair are easy to pull on ganon and i really cant put my finger on it but man can doc can do some major damage to ganon. with doc you should always try to sweet-spot the ledge or if you think he may not anticipate it air dodge to saftey. during the match i find dtilts and grabbing often to help alot. in the air uair and nair to keep distance on your side. as for projectiles i never have to much problems with them, if someone is spamming pills or fireballs just go to the other end of the stage and wait. no need trying to be agressive when the spamming is taking place just wait till they get bored.

 

[maximuspita]

I could swear that keeping ganon in optimal range for them was what makes other characters able to defeat the dorf. Many characters can do this by speed alone, weaveing in and out of ganon's range and attacking when ganon is vunerable. This would explain the Sheik, Fox, Marth and Samus but I don't buy that explanation for the other characters.

Link moves slow, Falco isn't that fast either, neither is Peach. But if this characters could find a way to keep Ganon in place so that his laggy jump IS an issue then these characters can easily attack ganon with relative ease and safety. That was my reasoning and I believe any char with a GREAT, and I mean a really good projectile, has automatically an advantage over ganon, even if it is the only advantage the character has over ganon and is overshadow by ganon's overall advantages. Chances are you can't reflect every move but your opponent can keep on spamming and your opponent can, however unlikely, counter reflected projectiles.

I have fought against what was believed to be best player around, which used a mario and he didn't pose that much of a problem to my ganon. Of course by that time we both played a very basic game (still equal skill, though), but I don't feel that the marios should give problems to ganon. You write that they easily chain moves on the dorf but along with Link, Ganon is one of the easiest characters to juggle/combo/ chaingrab so it should be a common feeling no matter who you fight. Their range and priority are easily overpowered by Ganon and their recovery sucks a smidgen less than Ganon's and being lighter than Ganon puts them lower than the evil lord in terms of advantage in a match. Maybe you are underestimating the marios' speed in overall movement and attacking.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

Originally posted by maximuspita
I could swear that keeping ganon in optimal range for them was what makes other characters able to defeat the dorf. Many characters can do this by speed alone, weaveing in and out of ganon's range and attacking when ganon is vunerable. This would explain the Sheik, Fox, Marth and Samus but I don't buy that explanation for the other characters.

any player would use this tactic its called a feint, fox shines and SHFFL nairs is wha makes him good not running away. sheik is tilt crazy so for most of the match she'll be in your face. marth is possibly the only on cause he has greater range than ganon and a powerful tipper. samus.....well didnt you read (they call me Mr.Reflecto ) so i PS all her crap and force her to go in the inside.

Link moves slow, Falco isn't that fast either, neither is Peach. But if this characters could find a way to keep Ganon in place so that his laggy jump IS an issue then these characters can easily attack ganon with relative ease and safety.

his jump is 7 frames, i dont find it to be laggy at all to the point were you feel like bower or other chars **** you in the air. i doubt his jump is a main factor in his matches. and falco is most definely not slow.

That was my reasoning and I believe any char with a GREAT, and I mean a really good projectile, has automatically an advantage over ganon, even if it is the only advantage the character has over ganon and is overshadow by ganon's overall advantages.

i disagree with that aswell, multipule projectiles (link, samus somtimes) possible advantage but besides that it shouldnt overshadow any advantages on ganons side.

You write that they easily chain moves on the dorf but along with Link, Ganon is one of the easiest characters to juggle/combo/ chaingrab so it should be a common feeling no matter who you fight. Their range and priority are easily overpowered by Ganon and their recovery sucks a smidgen less than Ganon's and being lighter than Ganon puts them lower than the evil lord in terms of advantage in a match. Maybe you are underestimating the marios' speed in overall movement and attacking.

even the floatess of chars can get caught with uptilt combos to uair and i wouldnt advise getting used to being combod, not to fun. mairo has a better recovery cause of the cape and a safe up B.

 

[maximuspita]

When I said it should be a common feeling among all chars I wasn't implying that you should get used to being combo but rather keep in mind that almost any character can combo ganon to very high %, not just the marios.

Maybe I should have posted more tactics speedy characters use on Ganon to make my point clear but when I mentioned the feinting tactics was just one of the tactics this characters can apply on ganon and screw him up without the aid of projectiles.

Again, wish to discuss projectiles since I certainly can't PS all the projectiles thrown at me and eventually they will bog me down significantly.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

like i said (they call me Mr.Reflecto ) but enough with that projectiles do a number on ganons recovery opposed to most chars thats really the only time i see projectiles doing a number on ganon cause when im in the air they dont (call me Mr.Reflecto ).

 

[CaliburChamp]

You need to play me again Mr. Reflecto. I want to see your powershielding prowness 1 on 1.

 

[maximuspita]

Originally posted by Thomas Tipman
like i said (they call me Mr.Reflecto ) but enough with that projectiles do a number on ganons recovery opposed to most chars thats really the only time i see projectiles doing a number on ganon cause when im in the air they dont (call me Mr.Reflecto ).

Considering that around 70% of the match, my ganon is in the air or jumping. That means I cannot depend on PS like you keep on posting. I can slow down and try to block, dodge or reflect the projectiles but this just gives your opponent time to whittle you down slowly. That's why I usually take a hit or two going through the wall of projectiles in order to get a clean hit in to regain the upper hand. I would like some input on fighting projectile spammers on the ground, since this would be where you are safer from needless %. And please don't post about your reflecting prowess, it is not a dependable tactic if your opponent starts to vary his projectiles.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

i think ganon gets too much play in the air and not enough on the ground. personally i play ganon on the same plane as my opponent usually, if samus is on the ground i'll be there. as for PS not being dependable if they change their projectiles i'll PS those too. but if youre trying to approch a missle spamming samus why dont you try triangle jumping or just jabbing the missles and if youre close enough gerudo drangon can catch some samus players by surprise (foward B). i dont find projectiles to hurt ganon too much though cause most he can jab, catch, or jump easily over but when recovering thats the only time i find them to be a problem.

 

[Lxl]

And, we'd all like to hear tactics which are viable to us lousy players, who are all not able to powershield 100% of the time.

maximuspita, projectiles for Ganon is a pain, as you know. Without projectiles of his own, and not having disjointed hitboxes to easily fend them off (Marth 0_0), Ganon has to rely on evasion and defence. Generally, the most you can do on the ground is to either punch it, side step it, or shield it. I would suggest jumping, and really it works, but don't continue jumping when you're close to the opponent. Your opponent can just jump up and give you a sex kick, sending you far back for some projectile evading again, or perhaps a move that could send you up for juggling. Anyway, if you're far away, I would actually recommend rolling towards your opponent to close up the distance. Mix it up with a few punches, shields, and shorthopped air grabs (if you can do it, that is. Kind of difficult to do, but its easier than powershielding. And, I'm referring to Link's bombs of course). As you near your opponent, just do as what you would normally do with Ganon. Shorthopped fairs, bairs, etc.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

Originally posted by Lxl
And, we'd all like to hear tactics which are viable to us lousy players, who are all not able to powershield 100% of the time.

1. i never claimed to PS 100% of the time, i can pull it often but not all of the time.

2.i gave vailuable tactics triangle jumps are mad good cause rolls can sometimes bring you to close to the opponent and the lag + being in your opponents range = smash/sex kicked.

maximumspita: projectiles are those things that are hard to go around at first but through experience you'll breeze by them. i suggest that against falco triangle jump cause jabs cant do squat to lasers, samus jab missles and block that blast (i get to scared to dodge cause i usually end up getting hit anyways), link has to be the easiest to work against in the sense of projectiles. with him jab, catch, throw, repeat. im guessing those are the mains your having problems with i doubt pills are giving you to much problems.

on i side note PSing with ganon is only effective IMO if you are in semi-close range, chars like flaco and samus will usually block them in time cause samus' missle arent the fastest things around and falcos SHB cancels any lag so if youre know to be a PSer he'll block or reflect.

C.falcon, how does he do against ganon? i had a friend who used to play him but now he's all about peach. when he did play falcon he would occasinally 3 stock me so im guessing he can hurt ganon bad.

 

[Titan44]

Triangle jumps? You mean wavedashing.....?

 

[Thomas Tipman]

no, triangle jumps. i find it more safer since there is less lag and im approching samus.

 

[Titan44]

Where can I read up on these "triangle jumps"?

 

[JesusFreak]

Don't bother, Terrel. Triangle Jaumping is just a screwed up WD. it's not really useful for anything.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Play as Peach against Marth, and tell me how you can get by without triangle jumping. >_>

It's really only useful to Peach and Zelda as they start to fall immediately after their aerial dodges so they're not suspended in midair as long as everyone else. Consequently, ledge grabbing after an air dodge demands you to be high above the ledge.

 

[maximuspita]

How would you perform a Triangle Jump? Do you AD at SH height? Or you vary depending on the situation?

I think against C. Falcon, Ganon is quite even. Even if the Falcon is considerably faster, Ganon has more range and same speed in ALL attacks (Give or take some movement velocity but in terms of wind up and lag they are very close). Same horrible recovery and same capability to kill.

I couldn't give specific strategies against him since I'm the only decent G-dorf/C.Falcon player around here but up till now my money goes to Ganon, since I play better with him than Falcon.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

triangle jumps are not just useful for zelda and peach. when you triangle jump the airdodge usually takes you to the ground so you dont even have to worry about the pause during an air dodge. but like i asid you can jab missles or you can triangle jump, i dont like rolling cause ganons roll can get him to close and the lag after can suck.

Titan44:triangle jumps are when you jump then air dodge diagonal down and land. its better than a spot dodge in the sense that you can advance while invulnerable and in situational uses you could find yourself dodging an attack while closing the gap to attack (unlike a roll your back wont be facing the opponent).

triangle jumping is not universaly used much cause when people first learn it they just see a messed up WD. its no WD so why care if it looks like a bad WD? if you dont want your opponent to think you dont have your techs pat down dont do it, i mean we do play just so it looks fancy right?

 

[BigGman]

captain falcon counters gannon. he has much more speed and pretty much one of the best KO moves in the game. falcon has grabs to knees, neutral A's to knees, and even knees to knees. the only place where gannon could win is fountain of dreams. it doesn't allow falcon to run all over the place.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

Yeah i was kinda thinking that too. knees to knees are horrible and what i think really gives him the edge is that he can knee you and send you flying to the other side of the stage and still be able to fly at you like a whombat an edge gaurd. uair to intercept alot if c.falcons airs but the priority of that knee is like no other. chain grabbing him to dtilt uair combos arent hard to pull on him and at low percentages you could throw a thunder punch before the dtilt without skipping a beat.

c.falcon + =knee and great air mobility
c.falcon - = fast fallers are easily chain grabbed and comboed by ganon

i dont know what it is exactly but my friend CAB'ed me with c.falcon one time and i was just like "D***......". let alone he doesnt use advanced techs but his playing ability isnt questionable, he's good.

also if you look back to the first post you'll notice ive added specific list that is more indepth on advantages and disadvantages as opposed to just reading sheik..big.., marth..medium.. the list is quite simple and is lacking on stratigical data but through post and better understanding on other chars meta-game this should fill up quick.

 

[maximuspita]

Interesting, I wouldn't find c. falcon as a counter since ganon has impressive range. He can combo you slightly better than you can combo him but ganon can still kill falcon from a d-throw. CFalcon's speed is not as overpowering as say Fox's speed since Falcon's and ganon's moveset share the same speed (on the ground and in the air). Its just that ganon has considerable lag which is easily fixed with l-canceling. Since they both share the same recovery, spiking cfalcon is easy as pie but so is ganon. I suggest you practice the combos in the ganon bible since cfalcon's weight and falling speed is close to link's.

I would also like to discuss Samus. I fought against her and seen some vids and it is a horrible ordeal. Almost like sheik but without the chaingrabbing.

PS. What it CAB?

 

[The_Krumber]

well, i play ganon. and the easiest way to beat fox is to.......... um......... well..........

*goes to play smash in an attempt on finding how to deal with fox and his shine*

 

[Thomas Tipman]

c.falcon IMO is basically better than ganon, he has the best mobility without the lost of too much power. ive gotten owned bad so there is not much i can say.

samus can do alot of damage with CC dtilts to uair or nair. her bair and nair have great reach and priority and if she wants she can keep distance by throwing projectiles at you. with those painful facts out of the way some things i find helpful against samus is when she is going to dash attack jump and immediatly dair can get you just out of reach from getting hit and give you a great counter attack, i wouldnt use this tactic to often though cause you can get set up for nairs and uairs. samus' dtilt is usually CC'ed so you might wanna make sure when you attack you are out of range or able to block cause at high percentages she can still CC pretty good. what i can say is possibly samus' weakness is her short hop, its bearly shorter and since she is a bit floaty she wont be shffl'n to fast for ganon leaving room for opportunity. her projectiles arent to much of a problem on stage (jab dodge yada yada), off stage it can **** ganons recovery eairly in the match if he found he fell off. samus is tough but just like any match good mind games can pull you through, oh and reverse uairs followed by an edge hog can ruin a samus trying to sweet spot the ledge, just takes a bit of timing.

CAB=catastrophic anal blast, odd conversation i have with a friend brought up the funny word (to us atleast).

 

[maximuspita]

When I fought against samus I found ganon's f-air worthless. I just couldn't use it to space and pressure like I do for other characters. If I jumped she just rushed with a n-air so I had to switch for ganon's b-air and u-air which are faster than the f-air without losing range. F-tilt seems to help against her but I'll have to fight her some more to see the tilt's effectiveness. The jab is a lifesaver against samus too, but I sometimes forget about it in the heat of the battle.

I find her f-air painful on ganon because of its low knockback and ganon's large size and gives a lot of damage to boot.

On his recovery, I suggest learning to edge-teching to make your stock last a little longer. It's easier said than done but you can get a general idea by picking up and using Link as the training partner in Training mode and putting around 40% damage on him and proceed to bomb tech so you can get the timing down. With practice its possible to tech marth's and falco's spike if done close to the edge.

Something I forgot to ask when discussing the marios. Does anybody have any strategies to fight the cape, recovery wise, or you just cross your fingers?

 

[Thomas Tipman]

when playing against samus reverse uair is really useful and not just for edge gaurding. samus can play a pretty aggressive physical game and if you find her rushing you often reverse uair (basically as you retreat or dash dance and pull it) can give you the reach bair cant and keep you at a safe distance while being able to retaliate. samus is pretty floaty so you dont have to worry much about her FF'ing out of range. also whne edge gaurding with reverse uair you can catch samus before she sweet-spots (takes a bit of timing) and somtimes samus will feel the urge to get you with the screw attack as opposed to attempting an other sweet-spot and bair will take care of those types of situations.

when using uair remember its basically and extended bair, if the opportunity arises use bair over uair.

marios cape is NASTY, i would avoid sweet-spotting the ledge vs a cape happy mario, going above him is a better option, of course this is more situational based (your answer is cross your fingers, just make sure they are still on the control pad).

EDIT: the main chars i have trouble with is mario, doc, and peach can be a little ****.e. mainly mario and doc i have trouble with since i dont get to play them often and since edge guarding isnt as simple as reverse uair , any nice strats i can use while versing them (mainly on edge guarding)?

EDIT2:i also got worked by a great jiggs player when played right she can own.

EDIT3: whats up with roy, my friend went crazy on me with him. since he's not as floaty as marth he can be quick in the air and can be a bit of a hassle - the "H".

EDIT4: if you check out the first page i have listed some stratigical advanteges under some chars and what not.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

yo people a little help with mario please.....he owns me .

 

[maximuspita]

****, nobody has anything? Anyways when edgeguarding marios I tend to edgespike. You SH or shuffle a d-air and it should hit if they try to sweetspot the edge. I haven't had a problem with their Up-b's priority using this tactic. If the marios try to uses the long grab thingie (i don't know what to call; it's when they grab the edge from quite a distance) I try a low angle f-tilt but I haven't had much success with it. You could also edgespike with the wizard foot but priority might be a problem so that's why I prefer the thunder drop.

When they are coming high I use b-air but try to go slightly under them so the cape can't flip me (unless of course the marios you play against use another method of defending themselves like pills, fireballs, or maybe d-air then try ganon's u-air). I prefer the b-air over u-air or f-air but it's mainly what I have the most success with, especially when you try to break their second jump.

One thing you should keep in mind is that the marios' dash attack is very good. You have to be careful since you can't shield grab until the dash animation is about to end since they duck to low for gannon's grab. It also shield stabs quite easily and an exceptional mario will know when your shield is small to attack. When hit they can chain more dash attacks, up-smash, up-tilts, u-airs, b-airs, etc. So it's gonna be painful and annoying. Most people know how to deal with dash attacks but keep an eye on this one.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

thanks, dash attack is somthing thats been pissin me off and for some reason i usually try to sheild grab as soon as i can (stupid me). i'll wait it out next time.

 

[maximuspita]

On countering the dash-attack you could shuffle an u-air over the attack and chain it with the gerudo dragon (like in the ganon bible). Do it from shield since it sorta gives the move an element of suprise. Don't spam this though, it's mainly just for flash but on low damage you can chain something nasty. Shield-grabbing (you have to time it) and aerial retribution work just as well, especially the thunder drop but be careful since the move has priority and I have been knocked out of the animation (probably for jumping too soon). Wavedashing should work but I haven't had as much success with it compared to the options mentioned before. I wouldn't try to tilt since ganon's tilts are on the slow side and the dash attack travels quite fast. Oh, and post some feedback on the edge-guarding moves, I just might be getting lucky all this time .

 

[Thomas Tipman]

i use uair vs. marios dash attack alot but i follow it up with tilts usually cause the lag of a missed gerudo dragon isnt somthing i look foward to, when im caught by surprise and i sheild it by instinct i sheild grab on the spot (bad habit).

on edge guarding mario if he tries to sweet spot he gets it, at the top of his up+B he has a huge hit box that covers his whole body and if he creeps above a bit more than expected reverse uair wont connect and ganon will get hit. i found bair spaced right can hit mario but if he is sweet spotting and your not hogging yet he's probably coming back. his up+B is the only thing ive had trouble edge guarding and i have fun abusing the cape recovery against him. when you see him recovering with the cape time it right and uair into a cape. he'll turn you around and get semi-spiked or just sent straight across.

EDIT: i edited the first page some, check it out and tell me if anything should be there or taken out.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

ive been playing a luigi player lately and came to the conclusion that ganon has the advantage on him. at first i was gettin owned due to the speed luigi was thrown at me in the air but onced i started abusing ganon ftilt and bair/uair i was ownen. abviously luigi's recovery isnt the hardest to edge guard so once i got him off the edge it was over most the time. i used reverse uair on luigi while he was on the ground and had him slide all the across the stage (FoD) and as soon and a could get him hit him off the stage the stock was close to being gone. the main problems i had with luigi was the speed of his aerial attacks and how he could throw 2 in a sh and a ton in a full jump, also wavesmash and wavetilts gave me a bit of a problem but nuetral A fixed that. overall i though ganon had it aslong as airs were spaced properly. anyone have any comments on this match up?

 

[The_Krumber]

Originally posted by Thomas Tipman
yo people a little help with mario please.....he owns me .

ganon vs mario.... i realy think you're stuck.

try reverse uairs.
mario can **** you with upthrow/tilt/airs, and ganon's recovery is pretty easy to cape.

jab is good

down throws dont work very well.
ftilt is a good move to use though

 

[BigGman]

for edgeguarding mario, i use a neat little trick that kills him really easily, but you need good timing. i use the reverse up air, but i hang from the ledge. the timing is difficult because i use the invincible frames when i hit him so i don't get hit. i usually jump on the ledge, quickly drop down, jump and up air at the same time, recover. his recovery is so short that even at mid% he won't get back.

against mario, i think this is in favor of gannon. he has too much range and power. just use the range,and don't get too close. gannon's forward aerial outranges all of mario's moves, and if you hit with the tip of the punch, your hit will always go through. if you get good at edgeguarding him, he's pretty much done.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

gotta try that

i find myself doing that every now and the to my friends samus but it sounds like it could be really beneficial vs mario. i keep trying to mess up his sweet spot with rever uair but he's like a magnet to that ledge so it doesnt work. definatly gonna try that.

EDIT: i just finished comin from a tourney and i got some insight, pikachu is nice! i played red dragon and his pikachu was like" OHHH ****". nair and his height is the only problem i had, nair obviously owns alot if not all of ganons airs and sheild grabbing the little squirrel wasnt easy. though power, range, and weight was on ganons side without a good approch its tough to apply this. pikachu has the advantage but not by much (IMO), tell me what you guys think.

DOC and MARIO arent as bad as i thought they'd be, of course i got slightly comboed but their recoveries didnt keep them comin back on stage too much once they were knocked off and the lesser reach than ganon helped keep them on the outside away from their combo space.

just my opinion so dont take this info to heart (i only played 2 docs).

 

[Thomas Tipman]

sorry for the double post just wanted to get your attention

this is what the current list looks like...

Advantage (for ganon)
Bowser..big..
G&W..medium/big..
Mewtwo..medium/big..
Zelda..medium..
Ness..medium..
Luigi..medium/small..

Null (even)
Ganon

Disadvantage (against ganon)
Sheik..GOD STOP HER..
Fox..big..
Falco..medium/big..
Jigglypuff..medium..
Samus..medium..
Marth..medium..
C.Falcon..medium..
Peach..medium..
Dr.Mario..medium..
Mario..medium..
Roy..medium..
Link..medium..
Pikachu..medium/small..
Y.Link..small..

incase you guys didnt know the chars are listed in order of difficulty (ex. mario has more of an advantage than roy). well the reason im bringing this up is because i believe the list is terribly flawed and some adjustments need to be made. before i change anything i would like to hear what you all have to say, me personally go with bigGman on the mario and doc match up (i did some ownage, minus for edge guarding mario can be overwhelmed). Y.link is an other char that ive been spanking and think he doesnt have much to offer (he may get you to 543% but he can barely kill ganon).

i really havent got much response on the list but i would like to remind everyone that the list should be more community related, rather than just me trying to figure out the placing the whole smash community could do it more accuratly. critisize, praise, just give me the heads up so i can adjust it and make it more credible.

 

[maximuspita]

How did you place in the tourney? Yes pikachu can be a pain if properly used, he is fast and has nice options but nothing major that'll kill ganon; except for that blasted upsmash (annoying little rat).

About your list yeah I've been meaning to post about it but I just cant get any quality time with an internet capable pc.

Young link cannot kill ganon and has no range advantage that his older self has or power his power, has lots of spammable projectiles but it's only annoying on the long run.

Link though has a bigger advantage than you think; strong, heavy, skilled links take forever to kill and if you're not careful you'll be either gimped or in pain. Not to mention that the blonde bishounen has great range, shffle speed and killing options. I rather fight a marth than a good link.

Jiggs I found has what seems a impressive advantage. It is VERY stage dependant. Pound is overrated, slow and sweet to punish on a whiff, block, etc. She whiffes that thing she is dead. On the other hand she can move gracefully around your barrage of air attacks and attack when you are open. All the tougher if you can't kill her reliably under 90%. Everytime I can't kill her under that percentage I feel like I lost half my stock and this happens somewhat frequently on large stages. Still if you take your time and keep in mind what you have to do the puff will eventually fall.

That's all for now, I wish I could write some more but alas, the sheiks around her suck to no end. Oh, just keep in mind that if a char can knock ganon of the stage and and kill him easily does not make that character a counter; remember it is a natural defect of the big G , I guess the best technique to master with ganondorf is learning to DI (upwards I mean) and how to edgetech.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

i agree completely, the only thing is i havent played a good link yet. i have played technical links but they have lacked in the mind games department. i'll take your word on link being tough cause your not the only one who has told me that link can be a hassle.

jigglypuff can be a real pain in the ***. her WoP and ganons size insures that once your caught off the ground at a decent percent your getting comboed. her downfall is if she is sent upwards she dead, though she will rarely stay above you like you said its very stage dependant. any platform stages can put her in an ackward position if she accedently whiffs a bair and catches herself standing on a platform. jiggs can be tough but her weight holds her back some.

i came in 8th and got eliminated by falco (who would have thought a blue jay would have owned me ). i played 2 foxes aswell, one fox i barely beat and the other just barely beat me. i would switch fox and falco around but ive had experience with fox players and never falco so i wouldnt wanna make a decision based on inexperience. which would you say has it more up on ganon fox or falco?

gotta dip, i'll try tweaking the list up so it can be more accurate.

 

[DYC]

I'm actually pretty sure Ganon is a Marth counter tom because the backfist eats through EVERYTHING of marths.

 

[maximuspita]

Actually, Ganon is one of the few characters that CAN stand on equal ground with marth but hardly a counter; that aerial disjointed hitbox is no joke.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

ganon evens out with marth pretty well, but matches can get tight so i wouldnt consider ganon a marth counter. i think this can be one of the oddest match ups in the game since both chars arent used to being outranged one way or and other, unless your used to the match up it can feel a bit ackward.

 

[maximuspita]

Tipman, you missed DK, Yoshi and the IC's on your list so we might want to look into them. Anyways either ganon is too high in the tier list or we are overestimating a few of the characters' impact on ganon.

I think roy should be removed from the disadvantage list and moved tentatively to the null one (Im edging for the advantage one). It sounds weird but hear me out. Roy is great and all, with his counter, shffled smash setups and the over b combos; but you must consider this advantages are very situational. What I mean is you'll only be counter around 4 times tops, right guys? He has around 3 knockout moves that he can depend on while ganon has more than twice the ammount. Also considering that Roy is light and a fast faller, killing him below 80% is the norm if the match is played near the edge (which I believe the roy will try to do so he can throw you off and get an "easy kill".)

Hey, what's pikachu is doing there?! He is fast and all but unless he can gimp-o-spike you 100% of the time he has got little else. No range, power? were talking ganon here and the poor rat has some decent lag in his power moves ( except for the up smash, that ****e is broken I swear). Like y Link, he might rack up the damage but if you watch out for his up-smash pikachu is not going to kill you anytime soon. Remember, don't play near the edge if your unsure, he might pull a fast one .

Any thoughts on peach? The guys over at the peach's counter thread pondered on considering Ganondorf a threat ( a la Marth v Ganon). But im unsure on what specific tactics he meant though.

On the marios, do you still consider them counterific or has the tourney given you a new opinion on the matter? Just curious.