Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[TimeSmash]

Okay, so you think he would pose similar to that. I could see that. I could even see him quickly crossing his arms in a kind of "rejected." character manner haha.

The Phalnax Cannon image you linked is more or less what I pictured, albeit more of a sphere. Did you think a little vortex would be in front of Ganon as well??

 

[GeZ]

Giving Ganon a projectile has been discussed before. I'm too lazy to articulate why it wouldn't help him, but it really wouldn't help him.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

I don't really deem it necessary to add a vortex in front of him, it would be kinda misleading as to what the use for the move is don't you think? Simply put any projectile that hits him in his "stance" (I like the crossing arms thing) would just be absorbed.

Edit: I thought you were talking about having a vortex in front of him during his absorbing. The effect on the shot of the projectile can be whatever fits Ganon.

How people don't think this would be a useful addition to Ganon and his inability to approach is beyond me. The way I see it Ganon is currently the number one victim of projectiles being that his jump is so slow and seeing as that Bowser now has armor mechanics. If only flame choke wasn't beat by jabs :/ or other grabs for that matter.

 

[teluoborg]

You can keep talking about a projectile absorber/reflector if you want, the pmbr isn't here to cover your inability to use your shield.

Besides, can you tell me how many characters actually use their reflector/absorber to deal with projectiles at high level ? None. Spacies and earthies use it to combo, Zelda abuses the invincibility frames, Mario uses it to gimp, etc...

So no, this kind of move won't help Ganon,

 

[Yanoss1313]

why not give him a Kamehameha while we're at it?, oh oh! and a tri beam!

edit: The idea of trying to eliminate his weakness to projectile camping is a decent one, but an absorber/projectile wouldn't be the way to do it. how often do you see game and watch fill his bucket (yeah, i know it takes three charges) and on top of that, how often do you see him not get punished for going for it?

 

[GeZ]

why not give him a Kamehameha while we're at it?, oh oh! and a tri beam!

Now I could get behind a tri beam.

You can keep talking about a projectile absorber/reflector if you want, the pmbr isn't here to cover your inability to use your shield.

But in all seriousness, teluoborg is speaking the absolute truth on this.

 

[Spralwers]

The projectile absorption neutral B might be great for match ups with projectile characters, but it still doesn't deal with the rest of his match ups where he is easily outcamped.

Fixing his mobility would be a better buff in the long run. DK, Ike, and Charizard are great examples of heavy hitters (who can often hit just as hard as Ganon) with mobility that complements both their neutral and punish games. I think an inherent balance to being a heavy hitter is a weakness under pressure, so changes to Ganon to help him under pressure have to be really careful and slight tweaks (like a lower reaching grab, lower reaching jab, quicker spotdodge, etc).

PM is a game where tons of characters have very high mobility, and I don't think it cuts it anymore to have terrible mobility unless your moveset is godly, which Ganon's clearly isn't. Ike, DK, and Charizard are proof right now that having decently high mobility and being a heavy hitter will not break you (in this case, you'll be mid tier at best), so I think Ganon's mobility could be buffed to similar levels. I think we should actually discuss what kind of mobility buffs would be good for Ganon.

Ganon's moves are really effective at canceling out projectiles, the issue is that his mobility is so poor he struggles to put himself at an optimal position for that.

Altho, maybe you could take Ganon in a different direction than Ike, DK, and Charizard. Maybe instead of buffing his mobility, you could actually go ahead and make him really good under pressure. Ganon still can't approach people mainly due to his lack of mobility, and that's a terrible weakness to have. Maybe it'd balance out his ability to do well under pressure and make him a mid tier at best.

 

[teluoborg]

In the end it's all about what we want Ganon to be.

Personally I like the idea of the muscle wizard, the brute that uses magic in order to get even more strenght. That's totally Ganon.

So I agree with you Billz, mobility is probably the way to go but it doesn't have to be a big change, and it shouldn't be about his running speed (idk, I just feel like a faster Ganon isn't right).
Imo you can buff both his mobility and his defenses with 2 small things : a shorter jumpsquat animation and a slightly longer WD. With these 2 things Ganon now has a better mobility AND better OOS options

Or you can go crazy and do the portal thing Shadow Ganon was talking about on last page.

 

[ShadowGanon]

In the end it's all about what we want Ganon to be.

Personally I like the idea of the muscle wizard, the brute that uses magic in order to get even more strenght. That's totally Ganon.

So I agree with you Billz, mobility is probably the way to go but it doesn't have to be a big change, and it shouldn't be about his running speed (idk, I just feel like a faster Ganon isn't right).
Imo you can buff both his mobility and his defenses with 2 small things : a shorter jumpsquat animation and a slightly longer WD. With these 2 things Ganon now has a better mobility AND better OOS options

Or you can go crazy and do the portal thing ShadowGanon was talking about on last page.

Speaking of which, you should probably update the OP.

 

[TimeSmash]

why not give him a Kamehameha while we're at it?, oh oh! and a tri beam!

edit: The idea of trying to eliminate his weakness to projectile camping is a decent one, but an absorber/projectile wouldn't be the way to do it. how often do you see game and watch fill his bucket (yeah, i know it takes three charges) and on top of that, how often do you see him not get punished for going for it?

But in PM, isn't he able to empty it out before it takes three charges??

I could see Ganon be a little more mobile, hardly gamebreaking haha

 

[Scuba Steve]

why not give him a Kamehameha while we're at it?, oh oh! and a tri beam!

edit: The idea of trying to eliminate his weakness to projectile camping is a decent one, but an absorber/projectile wouldn't be the way to do it. how often do you see game and watch fill his bucket (yeah, i know it takes three charges) and on top of that, how often do you see him not get punished for going for it?

I've actually seen Nintendude use the bucket really well too stuff laser approaches from Falco. Falco runs in lasering, GnW holds out bucket and empties it as soon as Falco gets too close.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

The projectile absorption neutral B might be great for match ups with projectile characters, but it still doesn't deal with the rest of his match ups where he is easily outcamped.

Fixing his mobility would be a better buff in the long run. DK, Ike, and Charizard are great examples of heavy hitters (who can often hit just as hard as Ganon) with mobility that complements both their neutral and punish games. I think an inherent balance to being a heavy hitter is a weakness under pressure, so changes to Ganon to help him under pressure have to be really careful and slight tweaks (like a lower reaching grab, lower reaching jab, quicker spotdodge, etc).

PM is a game where tons of characters have very high mobility, and I don't think it cuts it anymore to have terrible mobility unless your moveset is godly, which Ganon's clearly isn't. Ike, DK, and Charizard are proof right now that having decently high mobility and being a heavy hitter will not break you (in this case, you'll be mid tier at best), so I think Ganon's mobility could be buffed to similar levels. I think we should actually discuss what kind of mobility buffs would be good for Ganon.

Ganon's moves are really effective at canceling out projectiles, the issue is that his mobility is so poor he struggles to put himself at an optimal position for that.

Altho, maybe you could take Ganon in a different direction than Ike, DK, and Charizard. Maybe instead of buffing his mobility, you could actually go ahead and make him really good under pressure. Ganon still can't approach people mainly due to his lack of mobility, and that's a terrible weakness to have. Maybe it'd balance out his ability to do well under pressure and make him a mid tier at best.

I pretty much agree with all that you said, but I still would like a new B. It would be nice to have another tool in Ganon's arsenal. No projectile or anything, I'll even take somthin like Lucas' B... to charge up the power/range of his smashes (or maybe aerials?) seems like a good thing. It also would force opponent to approach him order to stop Ganon from powering up. Also maybe while he is powering up he gets light armor so weak projectiles don't stop the move forcing an approach.

Also as much as I agree Ganon needs a lower reaching Jab and Grab. The grab should still be buffed horizontally it's the worst feeling missing a grab when the opponent is an inch from your face! And his running grab should be buffed too.

 

[Raddison]

I thoroughly disagree with the whole 'getting rid of the renewed jump with down B". That thing is a life saver, and i couldn't care less about his side-B for recovery.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

I can't really say what would be the best addendum to Ganon, but I do have an idea. What if the PMBR made down-b j-cancelable? It would give him a little bit more mobility without making him OP. If people could recover their dj at any point of the recovery? That wouldn't compromise his playstyle, and it would make his all-too exploitable recovery a little more unpredictable. Like I said, a minor buff, but for the sake of bolstering out favorite king of evil.

 

[Bazkip]

I can't really say what would be the best addendum to Ganon, but I do have an idea. What if the PMBR made down-b j-cancelable? It would give him a little bit more mobility without making him OP. If people could recover their dj at any point of the recovery? That wouldn't compromise his playstyle, and it would make his all-too exploitable recovery a little more unpredictable. Like I said, a minor buff, but for the sake of bolstering out favorite king of evil.

What
That would essentially give him infinite air jumps

 

[BladeOFLucas]

What
That would essentially give him infinite air jumps

I was just throwing an idea out there, and of course the PMBR could place restrictions on it in the air. I was mostly thinking of giving him a mobility option in the event that a grounded wiz-kick gets whiffed.

 

[TimeSmash]

I pretty much agree with all that you said, but I still would like a new B. It would be nice to have another tool in Ganon's arsenal. No projectile or anything, I'll even take somthin like Lucas' B... to charge up the power/range of his smashes (or maybe aerials?) seems like a good thing. It also would force opponent to approach him order to stop Ganon from powering up. Also maybe while he is powering up he gets light armor so weak projectiles don't stop the move forcing an approach.

Also as much as I agree Ganon needs a lower reaching Jab and Grab. The grab should still be buffed horizontally it's the worst feeling missing a grab when the opponent is an inch from your face! And his running grab should be buffed too.

His grab range in general should be buffed haha. SOMETHING about dem grabs needs to be done, and this is coming from someone who doesn't even play Ganon. That range is just abysmal

 

[Bazkip]

I was just throwing an idea out there, and of course the PMBR could place restrictions on it in the air. I was mostly thinking of giving him a mobility option in the event that a grounded wiz-kick gets whiffed.

Even having just the grounded version be jump-cancelable would probably make for a far too safe, powerful move. You could just throw them out willy-nilly and never get punished for it.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Even having just the grounded version be jump-cancelable would probably make for a far too safe, powerful move. You could just throw them out willy-nilly and never get punished for it.

Actually, that is a really good point. To make a move like that work, they'd either have to make it really hard to do a jump cancel (which wouldn't make much sense), or they would have to nerf the damage and knockback of wiz-kick. Either way, it wouldn't really be worth it. Can Ganondorf not have a better approach option? Aargh
Good job catching that, like I said, I hadn't put much time into it.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

What if (I'm trying to redeem my idea) they changed his down-b so that you could only JC out of it after a certain portion of the move had been executed? At that point, the move and all of its possible outcomes have been committed to, so it is forced to be used more for an attack option rather than a retreat option (which is what I intended in the first place), and your opponent could then come up with a response to this. My thought is that it would give Ganon a good debate initiator, so that both parties have the chance to get a solid hit out of it. And if Ganon just uses it as a retreat option, the jump out of it wouldn't be that great going backwards, so if the opponent is worth his weight in tuna he will read where Ganon intends on going. The cancel would be probably past the 2/3's mark, so it would take a little time for people to get it the first frame it's available. It would also make people a even more aware of the dangers of down-b and would encourage them to find more ways around this more mobile Ganon. Many people have been clamoring for something that would help with his very poor mobility, and this would certainly meet that requirement.

 

[ShadowGanon]

What if (I'm trying to redeem my idea) they changed his down-b so that you could only JC out of it after a certain portion of the move had been executed? At that point, the move and all of its possible outcomes have been committed to, so it is forced to be used more for an attack option rather than a retreat option (which is what I intended in the first place), and your opponent could then come up with a response to this. My thought is that it would give Ganon a good debate initiator, so that both parties have the chance to get a solid hit out of it. And if Ganon just uses it as a retreat option, the jump out of it wouldn't be that great going backwards, so if the opponent is worth his weight in tuna he will read where Ganon intends on going. The cancel would be probably past the 2/3's mark, so it would take a little time for people to get it the first frame it's available. It would also make people a even more aware of the dangers of down-b and would encourage them to find more ways around this more mobile Ganon. Many people have been clamoring for something that would help with his very poor mobility, and this would certainly meet that requirement.

Jump canceling it (at any point) would take away your opponents ability to punish you for a whiffed Wiz Kick because you are canceling the ending lag of the move to jump. Not to be rude or anything, but I have to just flat out say that this isn't a very good idea. Wiz Kick is good as it is.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Jump canceling it (at any point) would take away your opponents ability to punish you for a whiffed Wiz Kick because you are canceling the ending lag of the move to jump. Not to be rude or anything, but I have to just flat out say that this isn't a very good idea. Wiz Kick is good as it is.

No, it isn't meant as a buff for wiz-kick, although that's what it is, wiz-kick is a fantastic move, I am just trying to figure out a way to work within the parameters already set by his moveset. You are probably right, but I was hoping my proposal would stimulate further discussion on add-ons to his moveset that would give him at least one more approach option, not to propose the best idea that was ever created. And since we're on that topic, do you think there are any moves that could feasibly be altered to give him another approach option. Any change would alter his playstyle slightly, so trying to maintain what he is now while adding something on would be impossible. I get that the wiz-kick idea is dead, I just didn't want to be one of those guys who made changing neutral-b the ONLY thing that could be done. I'm not saying give him a ton of new ways to approach, I just want a slightly more balanced character. Thanks for telling me my idea sucked, (no sarcasm, I promise) if my ideas suck I want somebody to tell me, both of the major complaints with my idea I hadn't even considered.

 

[ShadowGanon]

No, it isn't meant as a buff for wiz-kick, although that's what it is, wiz-kick is a fantastic move, I am just trying to figure out a way to work within the parameters already set by his moveset. You are probably right, but I was hoping my proposal would stimulate further discussion on add-ons to his moveset that would give him at least one more approach option, not to propose the best idea that was ever created. And since we're on that topic, do you think there are any moves that could feasibly be altered to give him another approach option. Any change would alter his playstyle slightly, so trying to maintain what he is now while adding something on would be impossible. I get that the wiz-kick idea is dead, I just didn't want to be one of those guys who made changing neutral-b the ONLY thing that could be done. I'm not saying give him a ton of new ways to approach, I just want a slightly more balanced character. Thanks for telling me my idea sucked, (no sarcasm, I promise) if my ideas suck I want somebody to tell me, both of the major complaints with my idea I hadn't even considered.

Ummm... Well... Other than his neutral-b, none of his other specials can be modified to the point of being better at approaching without making them terribly OP. Wiz Kick is perfect where it is (Powerful, yet punishable). Up-b should never, ever be used as (or made into) any sort of approach tool (Duh). Flame Choke... Well, now that I think about it, you could give his invulnerability to projectiles on his side-b from Melee back to him. Has that been discussed before?

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Ummm... Well... Other than his neutral-b, none of his other specials can be modified to the point of being better at approach without making them terribly OP. Wiz Kick is perfect where it is (Powerful, yet punishable). Up-b should never, ever be used as (or made into) any sort of approach tool (Duh). Flame Choke... Well, now that I think about it, you could give his invulnerability to projectiles on his side-b from Melee back to him. Has that been discussed before?

I don't know, but that's a good idea, a really good idea actually. And yeah, up-b turned into an approach option would be absoluhtelay herreble.

 

[Coastward]

that feel when pm ganon boards are more active than melee ganon boards.

anyways, sup? i think this is my second time here, but i plan on staying this time. you guys have any videos that i can watch? trying to improve my pm ganon and i'm wondering if there's any hidden techs that i haven't found yet.

thanks in advance.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

that feel when pm ganon boards are more active than melee ganon boards.

anyways, sup? i think this is my second time here, but i plan on staying this time. you guys have any videos that i can watch? trying to improve my pm ganon and i'm wondering if there's any hidden techs that i haven't found yet.

thanks in advance.

Here's the video thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/gannondorf-videos-where-art-thou.342323/

I just posted my NWM VI stuff, with me playing Oreo's and SFAT's Falcos. I'd love to get some critique on it, especially from someone as well versed in the matchup as you are (even though this is PM).

As far as hidden techs go, let's see... Flame Choke can grab the ledge from the stage for quick ledge-hogs, pivot tilts are easy, aerial Wiz Kick will cancel if you aim it at a ledge, grounded Wiz Kick end-lag cancels if you manage to end it right on the ledge, footstools are a thing, autocancel nairs are phenomenal, Flame Choke does some crazy stuff if you get it to clip you onto the stage... and I'm sure there's other stuff, but that's what immediately comes to mind. If anyone has a nice video to showcase this stuff, they should post it. It'll probably make this a lot easier for everyone involved.

 

[Coastward]

i'll be sure to post some videos soon.

in the mean time, i wanna bring up something that was shown to me. i forget how it was done, but someone showed me that you can punish an opponent's missed grab with utilts OOS. it may seem bad but it works out pretty well. it would look and sound better if i had a video.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Wait... utilts OOS? That sounds insanely awesome.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Wait... utilts OOS? That sounds insanely awesome.

And impossible lol

 

[Coastward]

yeah i need to get a video of it because it definitely wasn't OOS.

 

[M0p]

Where can I find a video showing auto cancelled nairs? I get that you don't need to l-cancel it if you get both kicks off, but what's the utility?

 

[teluoborg]

0 lag is the utility, and if you FF it you get the second hit of Nair at Kirby height. It's probably Ganon's safest move ever.

See at 44s, the first thing Arty does is a SHFF Nair

 

[ShadowGanon]

0 lag is the utility, and if you FF it you get the second hit of Nair at Kirby height. It's probably Ganon's safest move ever.

See at 44s, the first thing Arty does is a SHFF Nair

Well, technically, it has 5 frames of lag from empty landing.

 

[Spralwers]

When I first saw the arty vortex, it mostly flew over my head. But watching it now, I realize he is doing the arty vortex for essentially the entire first game (didn't rewatch the rest of the games). He also extends the vortex to sh autocanceled bairs. You could probably also extend the vortex to sh autocanceled reverse uairs and sh autocanceled dairs, but the dairs are probably less practical. you could combine the autocanceled bairs and uairs with wavelands too.

 

[teluoborg]

Rule #1 of the Arty vortex : you do not call it the Arty vortex
Rule #2 of the Arty vortex : you do NOT call it the Arty vortex

Also you can SHAC Fair and Dair, but you can't FFAC them. And yes you can SHFFAC Bair and Uair, and you can SH waveland them.

 

[Scuba Steve]

One thing that I haven't seen a lot of is using auto-cancelled nairs on people's shields and then jabbing immediately afterwards. If you're doing it deep into someone's shield, most people will instinctively go for the shield grab, but just get stuffed by the jab. The jab can also serve as a shield poke if you've been whittling down their shield a bit. If they start to adapt and just hold their shield instead of grabbing or jumping out of shield, you can just grab them while they sit in shield waiting for the jab. I also do this a good bit with spaced bairs to f-tilts. A well spaced bair on shield leading to f-tilt seems to be relatively safe against most characters that don't have tether grabs.

Examples of the nair -> jab:
http://youtu.be/9U8OrbtSCwY?t=6m15s
http://youtu.be/kWaHC-O8DLM?t=9m5s

Examples of the bair -> f-tilt:
http://youtu.be/9U8OrbtSCwY?t=4m46s
http://youtu.be/9U8OrbtSCwY?t=55s

 

[Spralwers]

Could also try dtilting out of a spaced bair. When I know the opponent is either gonna get hit or have to shield it, I love throwing out dtilts at max range. It pressures them a little bit and the shield stun with Ganon's fairly decent endlag make it impossible to punish. I've had success with this on Marths so I know it works. Sometimes you can go right for another dtilt, or mix it up with ftilt, but I prefer dtilt because you can actually start combos with it. Sometimes you can chain two at lower percentages.

 

[CORY]

i can confirm, as well, that you can sh-bair-wland. been messing with that myself last night. in theory, you can use it as a sort of shield pressure, against taller characters, just to stay safe. you can probably manage to wland away-ftilt their oos option?

 

[GeZ]

I like using it to space while I pressure and sneak behind opponents who get used to me WL'ing away from them. It's some good ****.

 

[Doctor Pink]

While I do not main Ganon, I have been playing him lately, to practice punishing mistakes(I main Peach and Samus). I have begun to fall in love with his techchase game and Ftilt. I find myself landing a lot of SHFFL Dairs on my local competition, and was wondering what the optimal followups are? Right now, I do Utilt when I can, and Fair/Uair when I can't.