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G&W Competitive Discussion (Casual Gametype discussion welcome)

A2ZOMG

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^title.

Videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atMQtxGQruE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3IbNd7z7LE

Quick things I saw:
F-air has a lot less landing lag.
DA has less commitment and sends people forward with greater knockback
D-tilt MIGHT be nerfed in terms of active frames
Smashes are still safe on block
U-tilt still has really small hitbox making it useless for hitting grounded opponents
F-smash actually seems to require spacing to sweetspot
Recovery is still amazing
Universal Rapid Jab buff where you get a final hit that knocks people back

Overall G&W didn't change too much from what I've seen, outside of his F-air becoming better which is actually a pretty significant buff. Any other thoughts?
 
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mini paincakes

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He kept the brawl N-air. I liked the melee/PM one a biy more, but I guess it looked similar to his recovery so they kept it as the fishbowl.
 

Dax

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not sure I agree with Fair being way less laggy... needs to be tested by a human player in short hop.
 

A2ZOMG

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not sure I agree with Fair being way less laggy... needs to be tested by a human player in short hop.
Check 0:54 in the first video. Old F-air had closer to half a second endlag. This version looks like SSBM L-canceled F-air.
 

Dax

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Yeah I just watched Gimr's stream... Melee Fair is a bit too much but it's better. My main concern is how useless the F Smash now looks... very slow and limited in range :(. Char still looks solid overall.
 

2SR

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gimr's been playing him, and it seems like he doesn't have any good kill options. Too bad, cause he seems pretty decent otherwise.
 

Metmetm3t

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Got to spend a decent amount of time with the game today, so here's my breakdown of the character so far. I'll go move by move.

Jab:
Damage: (jab1 3 damage, rapid jabs 1 damage, final jab 2 damage)

Jab 1 is still great. Feels like the same coverage and frame data. As for rapid jab, you have to do at least four of them before you cancel into final jab. Which, by the way, is amazing. The final jab has a huge hitbox and G&W even leans forward it may only do 2 damage (I think), but It has incredible knockback at all percents, so his Rapid jab will almost always be safe instead of being completely punishable.

Forward Tilt:
Damage: 10

Despite the slightly different animation, I am pretty sure it has the same hitbox. I have no way of measuring frame data, but I think it has reduced cooldown. Seems like this move might have a lot more utility than it ever had in Brawl. But it doesn't really fit into the same niche it has in PM.

Up Tilt:
Damage: 7x2

This move kind of makes me sad. The front and back hitboxes are noticeably smaller so it won't really be useful fpr poping up grounded opponents. The other major change is that it is now multi-hit. I think if you can find a spot to hit with it it'll be a solid combo or juggle starter. Maybe out of the (spoilers) new Down Throw.

Down Tilt:
Damage:6

Um, woah. This move is VERY different. The knockback is pretty weak. You aren't going to be getting many gimps or combos with this thing. But more than that, it has a windbox. That's right a big ol' gust of wind comes gushing out of the manhole. This really messes with trying to use the move for edgeguarding, but in theory it might be a solid counter to some short hop approaches, because it would just push them back. The jury is still out on this crazy change, but it's certainly interesting.

Forward Smash:
Damage: Sour Spot (14>19) Sweet Spot (18>24)

No more lingering hitbox, and the sour spot is big and has priority. You could complement it on having a little more horizontal disjoint, but at the same time he loses the valuable diagonal coverage. It can certainly kill well if you use it right.

Up Smash:
Damage: (16>22)

Basically the same move with a damage nerf. It has long startup, low cooldown and a 90 degree angle. Just like FSmash it'll be a solid move if you can hit with it.

Down Smash:
Damage: Sour Spot (13>18) Sweet Spot (15>21)

Look at those giant hammers! I would say the hitbxes are a little smaller than the animation would lead on, but still huge. This is going to be his go-to smash simply on the coverage. Otherwise it's the same move.

Neutral Air:
Damage: 4x3

I know we were all looking forward to this move being broken with hitstun added and air dodges nerfed and I would say it doesn't disappoint too badly. It hits one less time, which is a noticeable nerf, but this is move is back with a huge buff from system mechanics.

Forward Air:
Damage: Sour Spot 6 Sweet Spot 11

The sweet spot does less damage, but the landing lag has been cut down a decent amount. That's a pretty decent trade I think. Otherwise it's the same move, though. Sour Spot is still awful and the landing lag cut isn't so much that it's going to suddenly start working on sheilds.

Up Air:
Damage: First Hit 7 Second Hit 9

Same move here. Giant windbox. Second hit has tremendous knockback.

Down Air:
Damage: Air Hit 11 Landing Hit 3

Significant damage nerf, but the arguably more important change here is that he can no longer slow fall the move. He has to dedicate to the fast fall now.

Dash Attack:
Damage: Sour Spot 6 Sweet Spot 10

The knockback of this has gotten some serious buffs as well as the angle being forward instead of back. I think the animation change also has him sliding a little bit more. All pluses.

Up, Forward, Back Throws:
Damage: 8

They seem the same.

Down Throw:
Damage: 4

This is like a little Melee Down Throw. I haven't tested all the combo potential here, especially since all I have are CPUs, but It almost certainly is going to be an easy free combo starter.

*!!Note before I go on to specials!!*
I haven't unlocked all the customizations so my impressions are just based off the default functionality.

Neutral B:
Damage: I don't care

This move sucks. I don't think it'll have any practical use. It's spam factor has been toned down, but nothing has be compensated. It doesn't land cancel and it's natural lag is tremendous.

Side B:
Damage: Brawl

Um. Same move as brawl, follows all the same rules.

Up B:
Damage: 6

Two noticeable changes. For starters, the invincibility in the middle appears to be moved to the startup. I'm not 100% sure on this one but I'm pretty confident that's what has happened. The second is that If you cancel it into an aerial you do not automatically fast fall. This should be an advantage because it gives him the option to fast fall or not.

Down B:
Damage: plenty

Bucket Braking is out. Bucketing has a significantly smaller impact on G&W's momentum if any at all, but they've buffed absorption. If G&W buckets anything "huge" (for lack of a better word) it will instantly fill the bucket. I tested it with Corneria's laser and with fully charged Samus charge shot. It does not work with mario's fireballs (he still has to absorb three). Later on I guess we'll have to test exactly what projectiles are big enough to cause this but I imagine it's safe to say things like PK Flash and Thunder will fall into this list.
 
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Valdens

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He is nerfed. As I expected, GnW seeming like a god to casuals resulted in him getting toned down way too much.

All of his smashes are significantly weaker, none of his aerials can really kill anymore until ludicrous percents. Just did some messing around in training mode - usmash and (the now very hard to hit) dsmash sweetspot killed Greninja off the top at 95. That's with no DI and without the new hold-down momentum cancelling technique. With those, he'd probably live til 105ish.

His bair stays out way less long and no longer has the ground hit.

His dtilt has a weird wind effect now but starts slower and has huge ending lag.

His nair which would have been awesome for comboing seems to have just a tiny bit of extra lag at the end that makes it less consistent for comboing.

dair has ENORMOUS landing lag and doesn't kill until like 180.


GnW is going to be low tier this game. =\


His saving grace is that he can combo pretty well with his new dthrow, but it's tough for him to get in to do that. His dash is buffed alongside almost everyone else in the game, which is also nice.


Sigh... he's sort of just a glass cannon without the cannon now.
 
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JustKindaBoredUKno

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Have we seen any custom moves?

I played the Japanese version yesterday and my buddy had two unlocked.

-A judgement hammer that only hit 1's and 9's with slightly weaker 9's, which at first I thought was awesome, except 9's didn't show any more frequently. And 1's do 5% each time.

-An up-b that almost instantly shot him to his peak. It may have hit for less, but that's not much of a sacrifice
 

Splice

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Hopefully he can secure strong Fair hits offstage or something? For GnW to lose his devastating kill power is very sad.

I just hope his Nair can still be chained together effectively with platform cancels, apparently the SDI is nerfed in this game from Brawl so hopefully that benefits our Bair and Nair a lot.

It's really cool to see old Brawl GnW's, who disappeared ages ago, posting in this thread :reverse:
 
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Valdens

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His nair can still be chained together - it covers double jump and airdodge well.

You'll be hard pressed to get an actual KO with fair offstage that isn't a gimp unless they're at like 150.
 

A2ZOMG

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Well, that's lame. Overnerfing G&W simply because he seemed too good in casuals. Let's hope they do in fact decide to go with balance patches in the future. I remember Sakurai saying he wasn't against balance patches.
 

Dax

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damn. I swore it looked like Back Air now could kill... guess I was wrong.
 

Pazzo.

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I wouldn't count Mr. G&W out just yet. A proper metagame has yet to develop, so we don't quite know how his low landing lag could help.

I'm sure with some work, he'll be a decent competitive character.
 

Valdens

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Only fair has reduced landing lag. Every other aerial has more.

His nerfs far outweigh his buffs. It hurts my heart to be so certain of this, because I LOVE Game and Watch and was adamant about maining him in this game, but he is going to be in the bottom echelon of characters without a doubt. :\
 

Pazzo.

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Only fair has reduced landing lag. Every other aerial has more.

His nerfs far outweigh his buffs. It hurts my heart to be so certain of this, because I LOVE Game and Watch and was adamant about maining him in this game, but he is going to be in the bottom echelon of characters without a doubt. :\
I'd say that f-air is important for chasing, no?

After my hands-on with the demo, I can say that G&W will benefit from the new mechanics.
 

Born in 1839...

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Do any of you think he is going to be awful in this game? Also, is his weight even worse? It seems he weighs even less than he used too... Can anybody confirm this? Also, in terms of custom moves, is he going to have his neutral air parachute attack? :4gaw:
 
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san.

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I'm interested in how he performs as an anti-projectile character. I'm guessing he can only bucket energy projectiles?
 

Splice

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Even though he's killing at higher %'s than Brawl, everyone's killing at higher percents. Watching some games and asking my friend to test kill %'s it looks like GnW can still rock surprise "early" KO's better than most characters in smash 4. In this game I'd define 100% as early haha
 

FrameImperfect

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If it helps, it's easier to learn how to auto-cancel with G&W, especially his bair.
 

_hunt

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Even though he's killing at higher %'s than Brawl, everyone's killing at higher percents. Watching some games and asking my friend to test kill %'s it looks like GnW can still rock surprise "early" KO's better than most characters in smash 4. In this game I'd define 100% as early haha
I hope you're right... this is all I'm holding onto right now. The smash zones are huge in this game, I'm hoping we just need to adjust expectations of KOs.
 

Rakurai

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The only nerfs that are really bugging me from watching gameplay are the increased lag on his down tilt and the increased sourspot size on his forward smash.

I'm satisfied by the KO percents of smashes still.
 

_hunt

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I'm remaining optimistic. Do you know if the sweet spot of the fsmash is still as strong as Brawl and as consistent at KOing?
 

Rakurai

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I've seen it KO uncharged at sub 100% numerous times despite the increased blast zones, so I'd say it's still strong.
 

_hunt

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Really?! I wonder if the reviews of him have been wrong. Really, if that move still kills sub 100% then I think G&W has a good chance to be as good as last game. Especially with his buffed fair and dash and even with the nerfed dair.
 

Alphicans

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Gonna have to agree with Valdens on this one :/. Really didn't want that to be the case.

HOWEVER I think he'll retain his godlike status in teams, so I am going to reserve my GaW play to teams only.
 

Rakurai

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I'm remaining optimistic.

Mostly hoping having his Melee down throw back will at least give him some hit confirms that could make easier to score KOs.
 

SFA Smiley

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A Robin survived yesterday until 220

I started off sandbagging but near the end I JUST COULD NOT kill him

Anyway i'm gonna make a highlight vid and try to release it before the american release of the game. Some sick GW stuff and Rosalina stuff (my new primary)

It was supposed to be a full SFA combo video but the other members are too stubborn to use MY 3DS as it has the capture card >_>

it still might be a group thing but they need to hurry up and get replays on my 3ds

Also: GW is definitely bad, everyone says i'm trying to play him "like brawl" he doesnt play any different. He still gets camped, he still doesnt really have any safe approaches. Range isn't really an issue in this game so that's nice, but he's still weaker. The extra lag on landings doesn't help as much as I thought it would because the only real punish you can get from a distance is dash attack. His nerfed hitboxes are the main culprit. I never really noticed how vital that was for him to get kills.

You do have followups out of dthrow. Up-B and nair are good ones. Aerial dair to punish greedy jugglers is buffed because the ranged characters are laggier now. So if they whiff the up-air (metaphorically but just insert marth as an example) you will punish them more reliably.

Dash attack is super awesome... at racking damage, it'll always be stale because it's the most reliable move in your moveset by far. I'm gonna try playing some matches and keeping it fresh though. Maybe thats the secret.

will test tomorrow and let you know if that's a more reliable way to KO

Also I want to apologize for seeming so pessimistic. It's just frustrating to get these nerfs when a bunch of character's who didn't need or deserve buffs, got them. And then to see characters like greninja get killing movesets and us (THE GLASS CANNON) just get knocked down. It's really irritating

When I use GW it's apparent to me he is a lacking character. You know that feeling when you can tell this character "is just bad"? I feel it so I just know.

I don't know how much, but he is a comparatively weaker character. Maybe I'm not the chosen one, though. I'm excited to see who pushes this character to his limit. I'm still using him, for now, but I find rosalina much less frustrating to use.
 

Rakurai

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Maybe he'll be a little better off if they permit custom moves in tournaments. Pretty much all of them look better then his defaults.

The Fire customs in particular would give him a stronger follow-up after a down throw, and the High Fire is apparently a stronger KO move then any of his aerials.
 
D

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Crossing my fingers that balance patches get added. I can't bare all the pointless nerfs this character has seemed to go through. :(
 

Rakurai

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Making his hitboxes more accurate was a dumb nerf when considering that other characters have hitboxes that are now or still as disproportionately large as his were.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Yeah like, I'm kinda disappointed observing that G&W especially just doesn't have the potential KO power he used to. His options for edgeguarding are worse. And his Smashes not only are still hard to land, they just don't kill as early as they should. Your opponent SHOULD die at 80% when you land a G&W Smash. That was the appeal to G&W's Smashes, and it isn't there anymore, and his hitboxes and damage racking are also worse.

I'd like to know who thought it was fair to make G&W's D-air less safe when Pac Man gets out of juggle traps COMPLETELY FREE by throwing down the Fire Hydrant. I mean, given how much worse G&W's D-air was made mechanically, you'd hope that move would be an amazing kill move. But it isn't. Like...would it be out of the question now to make G&W's D-air spike all the way down given Mega Man basically gets exactly that with his D-air and also does that at lower risk?
 
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