Future Charizard buffs that you want/nerfs that you fear

[Pentao]

IMO, increasing Charizard's air speed would fix most of his issues. His low air speed makes him have so few options when getting juggled, and it forced him to try and reach the edge or do something risky and laggy like a falling Rock Smash or Flamethrower. His air speed is too slow for follow ups, and too slow to get anyone off of him.

Things like making his up-throw do more is more of a nice bonus, but it's that better air mobility he really needs.

 

[Braydon]

IMO, increasing Charizard's air speed would fix most of his issues. His low air speed makes him have so few options when getting juggled, and it forced him to try and reach the edge or do something risky and laggy like a falling Rock Smash or Flamethrower. His air speed is too slow for follow ups, and too slow to get anyone off of him.

Things like making his up-throw do more is more of a nice bonus, but it's that better air mobility he really needs.

Charizard has inferior damage, priority, and kill power to other heavies, a little air speed will not bring him out of bottom tier.

Also he needs decent air attacks to go with an air speed increase, especially his Fair is awful, it has extremely low priority, and the hitbox needs to be extended vertically because right now it starts about a third the way up his body and only goes a tiny bit above, leaves him with problems hitting diagonally. It only hits 11% it shouldn't be so hard to hit.

Charizard has generally mediocre damage, small hitboxes, low priority, and low kill power, a bit of air speed is not enough.

 

[ggamer77]

Low kill power? He can kill pretty early. Its just a matter of being fast enough to get the kills.

 

[Braydon]

Low kill power? He can kill pretty early. Its just a matter of being fast enough to get the kills.

Yes low kill power! He has by far less kill power than any other heavy.

 

[Davregis]

Yes low kill power! He has by far less kill power than any other heavy.

Less damage, but his killing power is much higher! See Uair, Bair, Fly, USmash-- compare them to Ganondorf's Bair - Fair or Bowser's FTilt/Fair

 

[ReturningFall]

Nah, if Charizard got the airspeed of jiggly, he'd be top tier. He badly needs some airspeed and height on his jumps (slowest in the game? pretty sad for a flying type). How much airspeed and compared to other changes is tricky. Some safe pokes would be nice.

 

[Steeler]

Tbh if he is changed, he'll probably just get random damage buffs to the moves that aren't easy to hit in the first place... I doubt they will change the speed for much of anything (for any characters).

 

[ZephyrZ]

Yes low kill power! He has by far less kill power than any other heavy.

He's got a pretty nifty set of KO moves, actually.

F-Smash is his risky one. It won't land often, but it's pretty awesome when it does.
Flare Blitz is super situational, but having a long-ranged punish can be really valuable at times.
Rock Smash has scored me the occasional surprise KO, though sometimes the pebbles mess it up.
D-Smash is slow, but hits under the ledge.
Up-Smash comes out super fast. It may not kill as early, but it can be used out of shield, and also be used during a juggle. It's my single favorite one of his KO moves.
D-Throw doesn't kill early, but it can kill reliably near the edge; especially with that awesome grab range of his.
Fair has low priority, but can easily kill an offstage opponent if you land it.
Bair has a lot of lag, but can be a devastating edge guard tool due to its range and power. It can even stage spike.
U-Air is pretty nifty as well, especially with all of Charizard's juggling options. I've gotten a good handful of KOs from this one.
Even his super-speedy U-Tilt has scored me a good handful of KOs.

Zard has a lot of weakness, but kill power definitely isn't one of them.

 

[Steeler]

Fly is also amazing, and even better than usmash in shield situations because it has super armor and you can angle it to hit someone behind you. It's also surprisingly fast in juggle situations, with a bigger, more mobile, and longer lasting attack than uair. It's a very strong punish for airdodges and whiffed aerials. Of course, it's way more punishable than pretty much anything else, but that's not a problem if you are good at landing it.

Also dthrow kills insanely early near edges when you have rage, 100% is curtains for some characters.

Charizard just needs a better neutral game. There's a lot of different things that could accomplish this, I am just doubtful that any of them will be implemented.

 

[Braydon]

Less damage, but his killing power is much higher! See Uair, Bair, Fly, USmash-- compare them to Ganondorf's Bair - Fair or Bowser's FTilt/Fair

Kill %s for getting mario into the blastzone from stage edge:

charizard:
Fair: 143%
Bair, sweetspot: 79%
Fsmash: 60%
Dsmash: 98%
Usmash: 111%

Bowser:
Fair: 121% -22%
Bair: 78% -1%
Fsmash: 48% -12%
Dsmash: 126% +15%
Usmash: 91% -20%

Low kill percents. Bowser's are way better. Plus that Bair sweetspot is basically the hardest attack to sweetspot.

Nah, if Charizard got the airspeed of jiggly, he'd be top tier. He badly needs some airspeed and height on his jumps (slowest in the game? pretty sad for a flying type). How much airspeed and compared to other changes is tricky. Some safe pokes would be nice.

Why would he get jiggly's air speed? He's a heavy character. Plus that speed would allow perfectly safe pokes with flamethrower.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Kill %s for getting mario into the blastzone from stage edge:

charizard:
Fair: 143%
Bair, sweetspot: 79%
Fsmash: 60%
Dsmash: 98%
Usmash: 111%

Bowser:
Fair: 121% -22%
Bair: 78% -1%
Fsmash: 48% -12%
Dsmash: 126% +15%
Usmash: 91% -20%

Low kill percents. Bowser's are way better. Plus that Bair sweetspot is basically the hardest attack to sweetspot.



Why would he get jiggly's air speed? He's a heavy character. Plus that speed would allow perfectly safe pokes with flamethrower.

There are other things to take into accout when it comes to kill power. Who care's if Bowser's F-Smash kills early, for instance, when it's near impossible to land?

And just because we don't have Bowser levels of kill-power doesn't mean Charizard doesn't have any reasonable amount of kill power. Charizard isn't Bowser. We don't need to be Bowser. Bowser is all about power; Zard is about jabbing and juggling, and I'd say our kill moves compliment that style well.

Charizard needs air speed because of, ya know, wings and all. He's running animation is fast, and his running animation features him flying, so it's kind of silly that he's slow in the air. And safe pokes is just what Zard needs; he's got nothing safe. Unfortunately, I really doubt we'll get an air speed buff, as much as we can really do one.

We just need buffs to our neutral game; not buffs to our kills(though those would be appreciated to, I guess).

 

[Braydon]

There are other things to take into accout when it comes to kill power. Who care's if Bowser's F-Smash kills early, for instance, when it's near impossible to land?

And just because we don't have Bowser levels of kill-power doesn't mean Charizard doesn't have any reasonable amount of kill power. Charizard isn't Bowser. We don't need to be Bowser. Bowser is all about power; Zard is about jabbing and juggling, and I'd say our kill moves compliment that style well.

Charizard needs air speed because of, ya know, wings and all. He's running animation is fast, and his running animation features him flying, so it's kind of silly that he's slow in the air. And safe pokes is just what Zard needs; he's got nothing safe. Unfortunately, I really doubt we'll get an air speed buff, as much as we can really do one.

We just need buffs to our neutral game; not buffs to our kills(though those would be appreciated to, I guess).

Why would I not compare to bowser? He is the most similar character to charizard and probably the most viable heavy, seems a pretty good standard to compare char to. Also bowser's smashes are really not much harder to land than charizards at all.

And it's not just Bowser, Charizard has a harder time finishing than other heavies, DK has the single best kill move in the game, super punch, and a surprisingly easy meteor to up air kill combo, plus his smashes are easier to land, Dedede has the strongest Fsmash in the game, slow as it may be, good kills from arials and a pretty good Usmash, Ganon may kill at higher %s but his smashes are faster, his tilts are viable for kills, and he is the king of damage.

He needs air speed because wings? So you're basing your balance ideas on the characters appearance and expecting it to work? Charizard doesn't need to be poke king he's a heavy, what are you comparing him to when you get these ideas? Pit?

And flame thrower is really pretty safe. I'm not saying he couldn't use a small increase to air speed but if you just buff his air speed he will never become balanced he'll just be as fast as a med char...

 

[ZephyrZ]

Why would I not compare to bowser? He is the most similar character to charizard and probably the most viable heavy, seems a pretty good standard to compare char to. Also bowser's smashes are really not much harder to land than charizards at all.

Because, as similar as they are, Charizard is still not Bowser. He's got a similar play style, but it's still not the exact same one. If you play a Charizard just like a Bowser, you're probably playing Charizard wrong.

Up Smash and D-Throw are crazy easy to land. Up Smash comes out super, super fast and has a good hitbox that can catch both aerial and grounded opponents, while D-throw just requires a good grab.

'Zard's F-Smash is certainly not easy to land, but it's definitely far, far easier then Bowser's F-Smash. He's not as good at killing as other heavies, but he's still good enough that I don't think it's a problem.

He needs air speed because wings? So you're basing your balance ideas on the characters appearance and expecting it to work? Charizard doesn't need to be poke king he's a heavy, what are you comparing him to when you get these ideas? Pit?

He's a flying type with base 100 speed in his own game; that's faster then Pikachu, I mind you. Meanwhile, Pit, in his own game, isn't even able to fly on his own.

I'm not saying he ever will get a speed buff. I kind of doubt they'll do that. But canonically, it would still make sense to have a flying-type with fast air speed.

 

[Braydon]

Because, as similar as they are, Charizard is still not Bowser. He's got a similar play style, but it's still not the exact same one. If you play a Charizard just like a Bowser, you're probably playing Charizard wrong.

Up Smash and D-Throw are crazy easy to land. Up Smash comes out super, super fast and has a good hitbox that can catch both aerial and grounded opponents, while D-throw just requires a good grab.

'Zard's F-Smash is certainly not easy to land, but it's definitely far, far easier then Bowser's F-Smash. He's not as good at killing as other heavies, but he's still good enough that I don't think it's a problem.

I don't play charizard like bowser... But comparisons are relevant to a balance discussion. Plus actually hitting the full damage Fsmash on zard is about as hard as landing bowsers Fsmash, the end of zard's hitbox is a sourspot that won't kill till later so the actual effective range for a kill in the 60% range is about as big as bowsers range.

Plus I'm not saying he should kill as early as bowser, all I said is he has a bit of an issue finishing so increase flare blitz knockback, and maybe a few others slightly. This was my list of changes:

• Improve air speed
• Increase height of second and third jump slightly
• Increase shield damage on rock smash
• Increase shield damage on flare blitz a lot, should break shields in 2 hits so it can't just be tanked like crazy
  
• Increase priority on Fair vastly so it isn't overpowered by so many other arials
  
• Have the hitbox on Fair reach lower, currently it only goes sideways and up, leaving him unable to hit diagonally down.
• Slightly increase fly hitbox, it's to easy for it to whiff instead of chaining hits now if you hit with the side.
• Remove sourspot on Fsmash, it's already weak compared to other heavies' Fsmashes so it doesn't need a sourspot on the tip
• Increase flare blitz knockback to kill reliably around 90%

Though I think I also want more shield stun on rocksmash and for flare blitz to push shielding enemies further.

He's a flying type with base 100 speed in his own game; that's faster then Pikachu, I mind you. Meanwhile, Pit, in his own game, isn't even able to fly on his own.

I'm not saying he ever will get a speed buff. I kind of doubt they'll do that. But canonically, it would still make sense to have a flying-type with fast air speed.

Yes but charizard is just flat out better than pikachu in his game, he couldn't be introduced with everything superior to pikachu in smash, and seeing as he's heavy he gets slow speed. Would you rather they had made him light and fast? This is as close to canon as he can be with balance really. I mean he can get some air speed but he can't out speed pikachu.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I don't know; the way Zard is now, I don't see any buff to speed making him broken, and I certainly don't see any buff to kill power making him balanced either.

Though your list of buffs there isn't a bad one at all. I think I could actually agree on that.
I just wouldn't consider 'Zard's kill power a weakness.

 

[Davregis]

patch drops tomorrow

let's hope for increased airspeed

 

[Damianos]

Yes but charizard is just flat out better than pikachu in his game, I mean he can get some air speed but he can't out speed pikachu.

Dude, with all due respect, just stop. I could repeat what everyone else is saying about how easy it is to get punished for even thinking about being offensive, but surely there's no need..
To top it off, chari runs (dashes) faster than pikachu does on flat ground, and hell cannonically charizard is a 3rd evolution while pikachu is barely a second. With pokemon battle tech like thunder wave and such aside, charizard should be able to nearly 1HKO pika with one flare blitz in those games. Granted, smash couldn't be farther from cannon.

 

[Braydon]

Dude, with all due respect, just stop. I could repeat what everyone else is saying about how easy it is to get punished for even thinking about being offensive, but surely there's no need..
To top it off, chari runs (dashes) faster than pikachu does on flat ground, and hell cannonically charizard is a 3rd evolution while pikachu is barely a second. With pokemon battle tech like thunder wave and such aside, charizard should be able to nearly 1HKO pika with one flare blitz in those games. Granted, smash couldn't be farther from cannon.

On the other hand you could learn to read because I wasn't saying charizard is op... I was responding to someone who said he should be faster since he has a speed of 100 in his game by pointing out that if we went by his stats in his game we would break the game...

 

[Damianos]

On the other hand you could learn to read because I wasn't saying charizard is op... I was responding to someone who said he should be faster since he has a speed of 100 in his game by pointing out that if we went by his stats in his game we would break the game...

Ironic you say that. I'm not sure how this pertains to my comment.

 

[Braydon]

Ironic you say that. I'm not sure how this pertains to my comment.

What the hell are you reading? It's not ironic that I'd say that, it's what I said in the first place, you're the one who comes in and starts telling me off for something I never said.

You're not even reading what I'm saying are you? How can you not understand this?

 

[Damianos]

What the hell are you reading? It's not ironic that I'd say that, it's what I said in the first place, you're the one who comes in and starts telling me off for something I never said.

You're not even reading what I'm saying are you? How can you not understand this?

Chari needs a buff on all fronts. If not, he needs better frames at the very least. Simple. Let's get back on topic.

 

[Braydon]

Chari needs a buff on all fronts. If not, he needs better frames at the very least. Simple. Let's get back on topic.

I've been saying that the whole time! Who the hell are you arguing with?

 

[Damianos]

Anyone figure out a solid set up for the newly buffed up throw? I find it's harder to get that fAir off now.

 

[Davregis]

Anyone figure out a solid set up for the newly buffed up throw? I find it's harder to get that fAir off now.

Oh yeah, the BKB was increased.... On the plus, BThrow still does the same combo :D
really, the abysmal ending lag on UThrow is a bit much