Fsmash or knee?

[DunSkies]

whats better to end a combo with you think? if i have the opportunity to do a forward smash instead of a knee should i take it?

 

[JonnyW]

Depends on how fast you need to get out of where you are. If you u-throw you can get spacies at high percents (like 100 up) with f-smashes. Its a pretty safe time to use it. When you are tech chasing and are trying to punish a read I would use a knee. The knee has a lot less lag and less punishable. You just gotta learn when the perfect time for each is.

 

[DunSkies]

no no thats not what im talking about im just sayn like if i have a down air on a fox what is just a better move if your guaranteed the hit.

 

[Jeapie]

guaranteed knee or fsmash.

Fsmash for sure

 

[taylosun]

Splitting hairs. You'll go bald if you worry about things like this.

 

[Walt]

If I miss my l-cancel I fsmash, if I don't then I knee.

fsmash is less likely to be DI'd well, but knee has less lag time afterward.

personally I very rarely comob into fsmash and just use it out of pivots/randomly/to push people in shield be to the ledge. but it rarely gets shielded, fsmash is seriously an unblockable.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Knee is overrated

 

[McNinja]

Definately use knee. It looks and feels way cooler than Fsmash when it lands. (If Falcon punch is an option go for it every time. That move has the most style points)

But all that's just if you want to look cool. Fsmash does more damage though so technically that's the best option if you know it will hit.*

*Unless you are looking to combo somebody. Then knee is better.

 

[Windrose]

guaranteed knee or fsmash.

Fsmash for sure

Why?

I thought Knee was usually better because you can L-cancel it and follow up easier afterwards.

Also, doesn't f-smash have a higher trajectory than knee so it is easier to get a good survival DI on f-smash than knee?

Pretty sure that based on these two reasons you should knee instead of f-smash if given that both are guaranteed in the situation you're in.

 

[Juggleguy]

Stomp fsmashes are underrated. Nobody DIs them correctly.

 

[Jeapie]

+Because of that what juggleguy says above me
+ You can charge them.
+You`ll never hit more then 1 or 2 fsmashes each of your stock.
You`ll hit multiple knees.
This saves up power for the knee for that stock.

Im still curious what kind of guaranteed situations we are talking about though.
When its down air - make a cup of tea - knee/fsmash.
Then fsmash is def better. charge*

 

[unknown522]

F-smash all day!

 

[Citizen Snips]

I feel like a better selection is Raptor Boost or Elbow?

Elbow surprises people and is safer on shield.
Raptor boost sucks in every way except how it sets up for combos.

Knee is an aerial, so I mean... The situations in which you use them tend to not overlap very often.

 

[Deleted member]

up angled f-smash is freakin strong

reverse f-smash is good cuz falcon mains are usually the only ones that can tell

 

[Wizzrobe]

Definately use knee. It looks and feels way cooler than Fsmash when it lands. (If Falcon punch is an option go for it every time. That move has the most style points)

But all that's just if you want to look cool. Fsmash does more damage though so technically that's the best option if you know it will hit.*

*Unless you are looking to combo somebody. Then knee is better.

Falcon punch is never a safe or guaranteed option unfortunately.

 

[JonnyW]

Its cause falcons hitboxs hit from behind more than people realize.

 

[Wolfy!]

I should really combo into F-smash more often...

 

[Penguin_ftw]

Falcon punch is never a safe or guaranteed option unfortunately.

The key is to fight a character that has such a bad recovery, he has no choice but to run into your punch.

 

[McNinja]

Falcon punch is never a safe or guaranteed option unfortunately.

What about when jiggs misses a rest? Or stomp to punch at some percents on fast fallers?

 

[Psychoace]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hewet3zRLZA

Also if you don't know you aren't playing falcon right.

 

[Windrose]

What about when jiggs misses a rest? Or stomp to punch at some percents on fast fallers?

If she misses a rest and she already has some percent. A charged f-smash is the best option but most of the times a falcon punch is fine too.

If she's really low percent (i'd say...less than 10%), you should probably just stomp her and try to get a double stomp jab to reset (won't work against smart people because they'll just crouch cancel your first stomp)


======

Okay, I agree with you guys on that a charged f-smash is better than a knee.... but a non charged one... doesn't anyone think that the trajectory of f-smash is much easier to survival DI well compared to a knee?

 

[Wenbobular]

Wow why are you guys misleading the poor guy so much

Stomp charge Fsmash is like, alright ... but the trajectory is so crappy

Knee actually leads into stuff (more knees) at combo % where Fsmash won't come anywhere close to killing them, and at kill % you won't be able to land Fsmash because they fly up too far

The only time I can think of where Fsmash would be better is at weird mid % where you probably can't combo double knee (not even sure if said situation exists...), or if somehow charge Fsmash is a guaranteed kill (rather unlikely)
Even if you can't double knee, knee / Uair mixups are better disguised than knee / Fsmash mixups

The question makes more sense when talking about Uthrow, because hitting a knee can be legitimately hard while Fsmash is a flick of the Cstick, and even though guaranteed knees are basically strictly better at the % Fsmash can be used it, Fsmash will generally kill anyways so you can afford to be a little lazy

@Jeapie - staling knees is so irrelevant when it comes to either guaranteeing a kill because knee has a much better trajectory or giving you the opportunity to combo off it ... and besides, staling your knee once is not going to make a difference when your opponent comes back at 0 <__<

 

[Citizen Snips]

Falcon punch is never a safe or guaranteed option unfortunately.

False. It is a legitimate combo sometimes (Sacred combo)

But in essence you're right, cause that's pretty damned situational.

Also, yeah, I'm agreeing with Wenbo on this. The two moves are entirely different in their uses. Elbow is a spacing move, as it pulls your hitbox back a bit. It's useful for baiting things like shieldgrabs. Knee is a more aggressive move, used for finishing and starting combos, and it has decent shield pressure potential coupled with gentleman. The only really common overlaps are maybe pivot f-smash vs pivot knee or uthrow knee vs uthrow fsmash.

Once again though, I think everyone should almost entirely drop raptor boost and replace it with fsmash. That's another topic though.

 

[Windrose]

Wow why are you guys misleading the poor guy so much

Stomp charge Fsmash is like, alright ... but the trajectory is so crappy

Knee actually leads into stuff (more knees) at combo % where Fsmash won't come anywhere close to killing them, and at kill % you won't be able to land Fsmash because they fly up too far

The only time I can think of where Fsmash would be better is at weird mid % where you probably can't combo double knee (not even sure if said situation exists...), or if somehow charge Fsmash is a guaranteed kill (rather unlikely)
Even if you can't double knee, knee / Uair mixups are better disguised than knee / Fsmash mixups

The question makes more sense when talking about Uthrow, because hitting a knee can be legitimately hard while Fsmash is a flick of the Cstick, and even though guaranteed knees are basically strictly better at the % Fsmash can be used it, Fsmash will generally kill anyways so you can afford to be a little lazy

@Jeapie - staling knees is so irrelevant when it comes to either guaranteeing a kill because knee has a much better trajectory or giving you the opportunity to combo off it ... and besides, staling your knee once is not going to make a difference when your opponent comes back at 0 <__<

This is what I was trying to say.

 

[Wenbobular]

Once again though, I think everyone should almost entirely drop raptor boost and replace it with fsmash. That's another topic though.

Raptor boost gives Falcon a very strange hurtbox that is very useful (in combination with the uppercut style attack) for scooping people out of stuff (and getting under lasers)

Not to mention it combos into knee / uair, which can combo into other moves at most %

 

[Citizen Snips]

Raptor boost gives Falcon a very strange hurtbox that is very useful (in combination with the uppercut style attack) for scooping people out of stuff (and getting under lasers)

Not to mention it combos into knee / uair, which can combo into other moves at most %

I worded that poorly. Every move has its use.

It's just that raptor boost's uses are very few. The startup animation is basically "HEY WOAH LOOKOUT I'M GONNA RAPTOR BOOST NOW DON'T GET HIT BY THIS **** MAN IT REALLY HURTS"

But yeah, I shouldn't have said entirely drop it.

 

[adechrist]

Dair>Fsmash works against fox as low as 35% which is sooner than you can hit with the knee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Xksn2M3P8
It works up to 80% and at that high of a percent I think Fsmash might be better (if the opponent doesn't go up at an angle) Falcon punch also works around 70-80%

As for punishing Jiggs for missing a rest. A fully charged Fsmash is the best if you're near an edge. An upward angled Fsmash would be even better. But I think walking slowly into jiggs, pushing her towards the very edge of the stage and then falcon punching is the best. I believe this is called the "Darkrain Escort". The falcon punch is faster than fully charging a Fsmash which is why you'd want to use it rather than the Fsmash after escorting Jiggs to the edge.

 

[S l o X]

Raptor boost combos into raptor boost and that's all you really need, just infinite raptor boosts.

Knee is more versatile.

 

[Scar]

This is such an easy question to answer. I'm surprised no one has gotten it right.

Fsmash sends people UP
Knee sends people DOWN and has followup potential

Fsmash if you can kill UP (light characters at high %s or if they will DI up/in)
Knee vs all else (fastfallers especially). Knee is strictly better if neither will kill because you can follow it up.

 

[Wenbobular]

How can an Fsmash possibly kill a floaty off the top at kill %? <___________<
He's asking about out of stomp, and it's not like you can reliably Fsmash floaties at kill % anyway

 

[Scar]

i re-read the thread and he was talking about the general case, if both are guaranteed, how to finish the combo, to which i'm pretty sure the above is a more/less definitive answer.

But at like 40% vs fastfallers if you get the stomp fsmash can be good, but in my experience is unreliable (some people DI all stomps, so you have a 50/50 of missing), so if you can hit both i recommend knee, especially if you're good at edgeguarding

the only times i think stomp fsmash is strictly better are the following:
1) if you did it by accident and it happened to work
2) if you are way worse than the opponent and you're on yoshi's story

 

[Scar]

i re-read the thread and he was talking about the general case, if both are guaranteed, how to finish the combo, to which i'm pretty sure the above is a more/less definitive answer.

But at like 40% vs fastfallers if you get the stomp fsmash can be good, but in my experience is unreliable (some people DI all stomps, so you have a 50/50 of missing), so if you can hit both i recommend knee, especially if you're good at edgeguarding

the only times i think stomp fsmash is strictly better are the following:
1) if you did it by accident and it happened to work
2) if you are way worse than the opponent and you're on yoshi's story

 

[Wenbobular]

It's so implausible that you're ever comboing into an Fsmash that will kill off the top though ... unless it's a space animal, but at that point there's just no point in not kneeing them

I guess "being unexpected" is an alright reason, but you can surprise them by mixing up Uair and knee so I don't see how Fsmashing is better ... ever really

 

[Aber]

Falcon punch is never a safe or guaranteed option unfortunately.

Incorrect.

 

[BairJew]

Incorrect.

It's so situational that he was seeing it as a reasonable response to say it isn't safe or guaranteed. If you look at big name falcon players in big national tournaments, you don't see them throwing falcon punches out at situational stomp %'s or punishes for misplaced recoveries. Therefore he has the right idea. Besides not sure why this was even brought up as an option anyways. In the question he asked between fsmash and knee. So whoever dcided to throw falcon punch into this honestly didn't review the question fully. Wizzrobe is a sweet man, he got his general point across.

 

[Scar]

@wenbo, however it's totally possible that you have a guaranteed hit (non-combo) where you can choose one or the other, like a hard read on a down-dodge or roll, or a missed rest, or a hard punish on a whiff. it's a legitimate question.

anyway i see what you're saying, the only plausible combo into fsmash (in your opinion) is dair fsmash on low/mid-weight characters. legitimate point, and my answer is knee is strictly better for all the reasons i already listed.

 

[Jeapie]

Well Fmash is still cooler so heh!

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

You can jab reset > f smash. To really know which is a better option we would need to compare the knockback growth on both moves although I'm not sure you have the info for that kind of comparison. Down smash is also a doable option as I think it send people on a lower trajectory.

 

[Wenbobular]

Falcon's jab reset is terrible, I don't think it guarantees a stand on anyone

Downsmash's trajectory is like 45 degrees (i.e. it also sucks)

 

[Citizen Snips]

Falcon's jab reset is terrible, I don't think it guarantees a stand on anyone

Downsmash's trajectory is like 45 degrees (i.e. it also sucks)

Jab reset's still useful though. Forces them to roll without really having time to think about it.

Dsmash also is useful when you corner your opponent and they have to tech


But you're Wenbo, so you already know all of this <3