FOX's MATCH UPS

[Zelkam]

Numbers in the OP are pretty extreme. I feel like most of the 70:30 matchups listed are closer to 60:40 or even 55:45.

The one I do have input on is Falco, however. I just spent a decent amount of time playing against a good Falco yesterday, and the matchup felt about 55:45 Fox. Falco has very limited options against Fox, but what he does have is amazing against us. His Jabs actually clank with ours, but he tends to win any up front boxing match because his jabs have much higher priority and a larger hitbox (I think). We can actually gimp him, but one Fair from him means we also die off the ledge easy.

This doesn't help when Falco has a killing Bthrow and excellent spacing tools. It becomes hard to deal with a campy Falco in his shield at the edge when you are near death.

That being said, as usual, Fox runs circles around Falco, has far better kill setups and racks damage quicker. We punish his mistakes really hard, and I got the feeling from my matches yesterday that if you avoid the grab and getting tossed offstage, he has a real hard time landing any killing attack (Smashes, Bair, Uair) against us, and we can exploit that easily by playing elusively.

Feels pretty even, but Fox can force Falco into bad spots when Falco makes a mistake, and Fox is a better punisher. Definitely feels 55:45.

My brother mains Falco so I have a bit of experience in this matchup and I would have to say I agree with most if not all of this.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Hello Fox Boards!
The Bowser Jr. Boards now have a thread discussing our match up with Fox. If any of you have the time to stop by and weigh in, it would be greatly appreciated!
http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-fox.392514/

 

[DavemanCozy]

Lil Mac (70:30) - Was already talked about a bit in this thread. I feel like anywhere that Mac is ever mentioned shows praise for Mac being a good pick against Fox though.

Yeah, it's definitely in Mac's favour. I played my training partner last night in GF at a local tournament, this MU is bad for Fox.

Some more suggestions regarding stages I have in this MU:

• Don't take Little Mac to Halberd nor Castle Siege. His dash has him running very close to the ground, which makes it annoyingly difficult to hit him if you're in the higher part of a sloped stage section.
• If you're banning stages vs him, definitely ban Castle Siege, as the 1st transformation gives him lower ground to work with and he can KO you easily, the 2nd transformation has no edges and is massive (so he's basically un-killable), with the 3rd having more slopes.
• Good stages to take Little Mac to are Smashville (thanks for this tip before), Delfino Plaza (some parts of the stage are in our advantage, while some are in his advantage), and Lylat Cruise (even though it tilts and creates slopes, recovering for Mac goes from difficult to absolute hell).

Nair offstage is good against Little Mac recovering horizontally. Forget about using it if he's about to use his UpB.

I tried what you said about trading our D-smash with Little Mac's Up-B, btw. It's beautiful: I shielded right near the ledge, waited for the final hits to end, and hit him in the face. Just be careful not to get caught in his barrage of punches.

Ike (80:20) - This is another MU I'm targeting due to numbers and lack of any high level gameplay to consider it so one-sided. I guess I'm mostly uncertain why Ike is listed as 80:20 and Shulk is 60:40. Ike actually has an aerial game that needs to be respected, in that his bair alone is more threatening than any of Shulk's telegraphed options. Strong grab game and combo potential. He's susceptible to jab lock, but so is Shulk. I actually feel Shulk is a much easier MU than Ike in this regard, and would (if anything) put Shulk around 70:30 and Ike at 60:40, but that's just my opinion and something that should be discussed further.

I think both don't like Fox. More tempted to say:
30:70

Shulk is one of the characters I play, I'm also acquainted with Jerm from Toronto (he plays in Anther's Ladder, and I've beaten him before too). Shulk's air game definitely demands respect too, I wouldn't go jumping at him with the threat of his F-air and his N-air.

Anyways, the Shulk boards don't like this MU, along with Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, and basically any character that is fast. I agree that this matchup is bad for Shulk. He's definitely more telegraphed than Ike overall, he has really high cool-down in most of his moves and no reliable move to get him out of pressure sans jab and Vision (which is awful in the air). What's worse, Shulk is one of the characters who has his combination of weight and falling speed that gets him trapped in our Jab lock, unless he's in Shield monado in which case he's combo food anyways.

Positives that Shulk has are his edgeguarding game is unreal good with Jump vs Fox letting him go deep offstage, and Speed letting him match Fox in movement.

35:65
I've also played this MU before, beat Blitz at Neo Canadia 5. This is definitely bad for him, same issues with combo food and Jab locking come into play, Fox having reliable ways of covering Ike's options and his return from offstage. Ike does have faster options vs him at least (jab, tilts, Counter, u-air, f-air and b-air demand respect), and once he gets going on Fox the pain won't stop.

 

[misterbreadcrum]

How do you play the Sonic match-up against some one who is basically (like everyone does) spamming his side-b? I don't think I can dash into it, i haven't been able to sh-nair, shielding -> jumping -> anything doesn't seem to work. What do I bait him into to get good strings out?

 

[luke_atyeo]

against little mac, stages with platforms that he cant hit you with usmash from under them work really well and give you 'safe zones' of a sort to help you catch your breath and reset situations back to neutral when ****s going back for you.
So smash ville is good, battlefield is good (the lower platforms he can usmash you but not the top platform of course) town and city works, and of course duck hunt, where you can sit in the tree and mac cant do much about it. Its probably quite possible to time mac out on duck hunt if thats your thing.
just dont fight him on FD

 

[SnowballBob33]

Numbers in the OP are pretty extreme. I feel like most of the 70:30 matchups listed are closer to 60:40 or even 55:45.

The one I do have input on is Falco, however. I just spent a decent amount of time playing against a good Falco yesterday, and the matchup felt about 55:45 Fox. Falco has very limited options against Fox, but what he does have is amazing against us. His Jabs actually clank with ours, but he tends to win any up front boxing match because his jabs have much higher priority and a larger hitbox (I think). We can actually gimp him, but one Fair from him means we also die off the ledge easy.

This doesn't help when Falco has a killing Bthrow and excellent spacing tools. It becomes hard to deal with a campy Falco in his shield at the edge when you are near death.

That being said, as usual, Fox runs circles around Falco, has far better kill setups and racks damage quicker. We punish his mistakes really hard, and I got the feeling from my matches yesterday that if you avoid the grab and getting tossed offstage, he has a real hard time landing any killing attack (Smashes, Bair, Uair) against us, and we can exploit that easily by playing elusively.

Feels pretty even, but Fox can force Falco into bad spots when Falco makes a mistake, and Fox is a better punisher. Definitely feels 55:45.

pretty much this. wario, kirby, duck hunt, olimar, pacman, sonic, pikachu, falco, peach robin are all closer to 50-50. fox is good but hes not that good where its 70:30

 

[misterbreadcrum]

pretty much this. wario, kirby, duck hunt, olimar, pacman, sonic, pikachu, falco, peach robin are all closer to 50-50. fox is good but hes not that good where its 70:30

The only 50 50 I think you just listed is Olimar. Sonic has favor, and the rest of the gang is at least 60:40 in fox's favor. He's pretty easily a top-tier character in my opinion.

 

[Element_Demon]

The only matchup I seem to have trouble with is Captain Falcon. My brother always seems get a grab on me, and the combos just start from their. And since Fox is a fast faller, Falcon can do some pretty nasty strings on him. Any pointers against Falcon ? Thanks !

 

[Cocoa Brova]

is the Ness matchup really 60:40 for fox? whenever i play ness' i have trouble being zoned out with PK fire or thunder, then if I try to come in with Nair or Dair, his Nair has priority, and of course the throws

 

[DavemanCozy]

is the Ness matchup really 60:40 for fox? whenever i play ness' i have trouble being zoned out with PK fire or thunder, then if I try to come in with Nair or Dair, his Nair has priority, and of course the throws

Personally, I think it's 60:40... in favour of Ness, that is. Maybe a bit better for Fox.

He's got all our angles covered:
Pk fire for stuffing ground approaches and covering the ledge. It's also harder to DI out of because of our falling speed, gives him a free grab or other follow up.
Short hop, fade away fairs wall us.
Pk thunder above and to cover landings, even helps him offstage vs Fox.
His double jump lets him chase us high and push us far offstage.

Bthrow, the bat, Uair and Bair are also brutal on Fox. The ranged battle is a mindgame of our lasers vs his PSI magnet. His Nair also lets him get out of pressure quickly.

Ness is good vs Fox, in my experience. I'm tempted to say
60:40

 

[Cocoa Brova]

How do you play the Sonic match-up against some one who is basically (like everyone does) spamming his side-b? I don't think I can dash into it, i haven't been able to sh-nair, shielding -> jumping -> anything doesn't seem to work. What do I bait him into to get good strings out?

If you're not on FG, u can try the custom lasers (the laser 2 should stop him as he rolls, and troll him), u definitely can't beat his spin dash with ur dash attack. Otherwise, it's a matter of just keeping from getting hit too much and catching Sonic in the air, it's an annoying matchup i feel for any character, especially the spamming players.

 

[G-Sword]

is the Ness matchup really 60:40 for fox? whenever i play ness' i have trouble being zoned out with PK fire or thunder, then if I try to come in with Nair or Dair, his Nair has priority, and of course the throws

Personally, I think it's 60:40... in favour of Ness, that is. Maybe a bit better for Fox.

He's got all our angles covered:
Pk fire for stuffing ground approaches and covering the ledge. It's also harder to DI out of because of our falling speed, gives him a free grab or other follow up.
Short hop, fade away fairs wall us.
Pk thunder above and to cover landings, even helps him offstage vs Fox.
His double jump lets him chase us high and push us far offstage.

Bthrow, the bat, Uair and Bair are also brutal on Fox. The ranged battle is a mindgame of our lasers vs his PSI magnet. His Nair also lets him get out of pressure quickly.

Ness is good vs Fox, in my experience. I'm tempted to say
60:40

I have no idea what you guys are doing in this match up. But this is 60/40 in fox's favor. Ness use to give me a hard time but I have figured out a way to punish this match up every time. Ness is way too slow and can be punished heavily by fox. Keep away from the grab and punish him for using aerials, punish with lasers often before he gets absorb up and you win the fight. Here are two videos I have of the match up and I have more coming. Not high quality but gets the job done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjnQaiaYtC0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOWtgQunIVs

I fought a real good ness player at a tourney as well. Had no problem beating him as well and used the tactics.

 

[luke_atyeo]

^ not to take anything away from you, but those ness's were not very good.
Airdodging constantly (letting you frame trap them)
throwing out moves that were clearly not going to hit you, just for the sake of throwing out moves
bad spacing, not reading or adapting to you at all etc

I'm not saying you're wrong, I dont know that matchup at all, but the ness's in those videos dont make them very good evidence.
Can you get some tourney vids?

 

[Timbers]

pretty much this. wario, kirby, duck hunt, olimar, pacman, sonic, pikachu, falco, peach robin are all closer to 50-50. fox is good but hes not that good where its 70:30

This is correct. We probably have advantage on Pac, DHD, Wario, but nothing more excessive than 60:40. There's serious under representation of Kirby and Peach but both of these characters force air-to-air, which is not Fox's most strong suit. Kirby in particular, and his usual low range I'd imagine is not a huge loss for him in a match against Fox.

Personally, I think it's 60:40... in favour of Ness, that is. Maybe a bit better for Fox.

He's got all our angles covered:
Pk fire for stuffing ground approaches and covering the ledge. It's also harder to DI out of because of our falling speed, gives him a free grab or other follow up.
Short hop, fade away fairs wall us.
Pk thunder above and to cover landings, even helps him offstage vs Fox.
His double jump lets him chase us high and push us far offstage.

Bthrow, the bat, Uair and Bair are also brutal on Fox. The ranged battle is a mindgame of our lasers vs his PSI magnet. His Nair also lets him get out of pressure quickly.

Ness is good vs Fox, in my experience. I'm tempted to say
60:40

This is also correct. His airspeed, nair, and doublejump get him out of pressure for free. Hesitant to place numbers on the MU though, it could be closer to even. I think the biggest bane for Fox is should he lose percent lead he actually needs to approach Ness, which is stupid to deal with.

^ not to take anything away from you, but those ness's were not very good.
Airdodging constantly (letting you frame trap them)
throwing out moves that were clearly not going to hit you, just for the sake of throwing out moves
bad spacing, not reading or adapting to you at all etc

I'm not saying you're wrong, I dont know that matchup at all, but the ness's in those videos dont make them very good evidence.
Can you get some tourney vids?

Looked like roll wars tbh.

 

[G-Sword]

^ not to take anything away from you, but those ness's were not very good.
Airdodging constantly (letting you frame trap them)
throwing out moves that were clearly not going to hit you, just for the sake of throwing out moves
bad spacing, not reading or adapting to you at all etc

I'm not saying you're wrong, I dont know that matchup at all, but the ness's in those videos dont make them very good evidence.
Can you get some tourney vids?

Yes i already know that these guys are just decent nothing special. Im just showing the tactics i use to beat ness players. Of course i have to change it up a little depending on how good the player is the tactics are mostly the same.I wish I could get the fight's between me and the ness player. He beat a player named tech chase at the tourney and he is a pretty big name in the smash community in Michigan. We don't have too many ness players at our tourneys and we have big turnouts as well. But once again I don't have any trouble fighting ness. I understand that you guys have trouble with him because I did. But I changed how I handle him and probably lost 1 or 2 fights out of around 40-50 against ness now. Ness is too slow to fight fox and you can punish his aerials pretty easily. Deny the grab u got most of the fight won.

 

[DavemanCozy]

For the record, I do know what I'm doing in the Ness MU, at least with Ness's around / below my level:
http://youtu.be/vrn3YGH1frw?t=4m2s

It doesn't change it for me that Ness is hard for Fox.

 

[Foster J.]

For the record, I do know what I'm doing in the Ness MU, at least with Ness's around / below my level:
http://youtu.be/vrn3YGH1frw?t=4m2s

It doesn't change it for me that Ness is hard for Fox.

Man this list is Bogus, and we know IT.
Heck yeah Ness is dangerous, one Bthrow at 60 and you're potentially out

 

[G-Sword]

For the record, I do know what I'm doing in the Ness MU, at least with Ness's around / below my level:
http://youtu.be/vrn3YGH1frw?t=4m2s

It doesn't change it for me that Ness is hard for Fox.

Wasn't trying to diss you in anyway I apologize if you were thinking that. But for me the match up just not 60-40 ness. If you asked me that a month or so ago than I would agree with you. Just my 2cents.

 

[misterbreadcrum]

As an ex Ness main I think it's more important (playing as Fox) to focus on not getting read than any other single aspect of the matchup. Ness, while fast, still genrally only has a few more startup frames than fox, but tends to have much larger hitboxes on his moves. While I usually find it easy to kill with Fox, a good Ness will easily read those kill moves and tends to punish with a death-grab.

I agree that this is a match-up in favor of Ness, and if you lose momentum, you get into a dangerous spot. Your best bet is not to engage in the air too much, and make sure you're reading his shields because you definitely don't want to get grabbed.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Not to make a rant but NO WAY do peach and Kirbys matchup makes sense at 70:30
I would say that both peach and Kirby have slight advantages against fox.
Peach out ranges fox, and has more KO power, while being able to combo him easily, avoid his projectile slightly because of her float, easy gimp him with her projectile and overall makes him almost unable to recover back to the stage because of her Nair alone.
Overall Peach has trouble dealing with a lot of pressure from fast characters like falcon and sonic, but you can predict how they move and space well and use turnips, you can get the upper hand.

For Kirby, He has more KO power, one of the best edge guarding games, possibly the lowest crouch to easily avoid his lasers, which forces fox to approach, and better combo ability.
We all know Kirby has bad approach options, but because fox's projectile will be near useless in this fight, He's forced to approach Kirby, and Kirby can hold his ground against a fox. Better on the ground then in the air, but even then he has some fast attacks that can be very helpful.

 

[misterbreadcrum]

Not to make a rant but NO WAY do peach and Kirbys matchup makes sense at 70:30
I would say that both peach and Kirby have slight advantages against fox.
Peach out ranges fox, and has more KO power, while being able to combo him easily, avoid his projectile slightly because of her float, easy gimp him with her projectile and overall makes him almost unable to recover back to the stage because of her Nair alone.
Overall Peach has trouble dealing with a lot of pressure from fast characters like falcon and sonic, but you can predict how they move and space well and use turnips, you can get the upper hand.

For Kirby, He has more KO power, one of the best edge guarding games, possibly the lowest crouch to easily avoid his lasers, which forces fox to approach, and better combo ability.
We all know Kirby has bad approach options, but because fox's projectile will be near useless in this fight, He's forced to approach Kirby, and Kirby can hold his ground against a fox. Better on the ground then in the air, but even then he has some fast attacks that can be very helpful.

Lately I have been playing a lot of really well versed, practiced, and obvious Kirby mains. I have to agree. At the very most, it is 50:50 for Fox.

Peaches though, seem to have a pretty good advantage over Fox. I find it incredibly hard to get in on Peaches, and I think it's a pretty clean 60:40.

I'm beginning to find that Fox actually has a lot of really crappy match-ups.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Not to make a rant but NO WAY do peach and Kirbys matchup makes sense at 70:30
I would say that both peach and Kirby have slight advantages against fox.
Peach out ranges fox, and has more KO power, while being able to combo him easily, avoid his projectile slightly because of her float, easy gimp him with her projectile and overall makes him almost unable to recover back to the stage because of her Nair alone.
Overall Peach has trouble dealing with a lot of pressure from fast characters like falcon and sonic, but you can predict how they move and space well and use turnips, you can get the upper hand.

For Kirby, He has more KO power, one of the best edge guarding games, possibly the lowest crouch to easily avoid his lasers, which forces fox to approach, and better combo ability.
We all know Kirby has bad approach options, but because fox's projectile will be near useless in this fight, He's forced to approach Kirby, and Kirby can hold his ground against a fox. Better on the ground then in the air, but even then he has some fast attacks that can be very helpful.

50:50 imo.

Kirby's got a low crouch, but Fox's tilt's can all hit Kirby fine (angle f-tilt down) and are all very quick follow-up starters. Kirby's advantage in this matchup is that he, unlike other characters, doesn't mind being right above Fox with all his multiple jumps and options to come back down safely. Both characters can combo each other fine, Kirby probably does more damage but that's the Fox life.
What you said about Fox being forced to approach Kirby can be true the other way around as well: Fox doesn't have to approach Kirby either. Both characters lack a projectile to pressure each other at range, so unless you've copied lasers, one of them is going to have to make a move eventually. Fox's movement in the ground and falling speed are also much better than Kirby's, he's got more angles to work with than Kirby onstage.
Kirby does win offstage for sure. Fox's linear recovery is easily intercepted, it's very hard to make it back safely at this point.
Each others U-smashes, b-airs, and u-airs KO each other. I wouldn't say Kirby has more KO power, both are equal in that regard.

60:40 feels more accurate.

Fox beats Peach. She's fairly easy to juggle as she lacks a good move to protect herself while coming back down. Easy to keep her up with U-tilt and U-air.
Her range vs his speed, Fox's speed wins as long as he doesn't get cornered, which isn't hard to avoid vs a slow character like Peach. Her turnip is meh for approaches and control, it's been that way since Brawl when it started disappearing upon hitting shields.
Peach definitely wins when it comes to edge-guarding. Stitchies also make me salty.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Lately I have been playing a lot of really well versed, practiced, and obvious Kirby mains. I have to agree. At the very most, it is 50:50 for Fox.

Peaches though, seem to have a pretty good advantage over Fox. I find it incredibly hard to get in on Peaches, and I think it's a pretty clean 60:40.

I'm beginning to find that Fox actually has a lot of really crappy match-ups.

EXACTLY and I would have said that, but it's this guys opinion anyways, and frankly I doubt he would change it, but I hope he learns that obviously this many match ups are NOT in his favor..... He has significant flaws, yet I'm surprised some consider him high tier... Would you?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

50:50 imo.

Kirby's got a low crouch, but Fox's tilt's can all hit Kirby fine (angle f-tilt down) and are all very quick follow-up starters. Kirby's advantage in this matchup is that he, unlike other characters, doesn't mind being right above Fox with all his multiple jumps and options to come back down safely. Both characters can combo each other fine, Kirby probably does more damage but that's the Fox life.
What you said about Fox being forced to approach Kirby can be true the other way around as well: Fox doesn't have to approach Kirby either. Both characters lack a projectile to pressure each other at range, so unless you've copied lasers, one of them is going to have to make a move eventually. Fox's movement in the ground and falling speed are also much better than Kirby's, he's got more angles to work with than Kirby onstage.
Kirby does win offstage for sure. Fox's linear recovery is easily intercepted, it's very hard to make it back safely at this point.
Each others U-smashes, b-airs, and u-airs KO each other. I wouldn't say Kirby has more KO power, both are equal in that regard.

60:40 feels more accurate.

Fox beats Peach. She's fairly easy to juggle as she lacks a good move to protect herself while coming back down. Easy to keep her up with U-tilt and U-air.
Her range vs his speed, Fox's speed wins as long as he doesn't get cornered, which isn't hard to avoid vs a slow character like Peach. Her turnip is meh for approaches and control, it's been that way since Brawl when it started disappearing upon hitting shields.
Peach definitely wins when it comes to edge-guarding. Stitchies also make me salty.

Keep in mind peach has fast attacks as well, maybe not as fast as foxes, but are quick nonetheless
Her projectile is overall better because of multiple reasons that I should not have to explain.
I don't think peach will have to chase fox too often and even then(Keep in mind I'm referring to Onlin matches from my experience)
He won't have very far to run. His falling speed doesn't always help him come back down either, it just makes him even easier to combo for peach and get on a lot of damage.
Peachs Uair and Utilt would do the same to fox, only hers actually have more range, utility and combo ability and are both disjointed making them safe.
Unless fox players do however, pressure peach with constant moving and attacking, peach would generally win the matchup.
Like I said before, characters like captain falcon and sonic are good at applying pressure to peach and can get in those quick, hard to hit attacks.

 

[Foster J.]

60:40 feels more accurate.

Fox beats Peach. She's fairly easy to juggle as she lacks a good move to protect herself while coming back down. Easy to keep her up with U-tilt and U-air.
Her range vs his speed, Fox's speed wins as long as he doesn't get cornered, which isn't hard to avoid vs a slow character like Peach. Her turnip is meh for approaches and control, it's been that way since Brawl when it started disappearing upon hitting shields.
Peach definitely wins when it comes to edge-guarding. Stitchies also make me salty.

Peach's Nair will actually cover a lot of options, as it more rapid than our Nair. And I wouldn't say she's easy to keep juggling with the range of her Dair.

Her edge guard is monstrous, but the thing that worries me most is her options. Fact is Peach has more kill options than Fox. Dthrow will set up for a lot of kills, Such as Dthrow to Bair, or Fair, so you have to DI correctly.

The fact that her throws are that dangerous means at 60-70 you have to avoid getting grabbed in most cases. I swear her Fair has more priority than Usmash sometimes, but maybe that's just the wifi lag that's messing with me.

But due to her being more defensive, with a better edge guard, and more options, IMO the MU is 45:55 Good Peach players are not fun to try, if you can take Peach to Battlefield, then it becomes 55:45, but in an open scenario like FD, she's a real pain.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Peach's Nair will actually cover a lot of options, as it more rapid than our Nair. And I wouldn't say she's easy to keep juggling with the range of her Dair.

Her edge guard is monstrous, but the thing that worries me most is her options. Fact is Peach has more kill options than Fox. Dthrow will set up for a lot of kills, Such as Dthrow to Bair, or Fair, so you have to DI correctly.

The fact that her throws are that dangerous means at 60-70 you have to avoid getting grabbed in most cases. I swear her Fair has more priority than Usmash sometimes, but maybe that's just the wifi lag that's messing with me.

But due to her being more defensive, with a better edge guard, and more options, IMO the MU is 45:55 Good Peach players are not fun to try, if you can take Peach to Battlefield, then it becomes 55:45, but in an open scenario like FD, she's a real pain.

This sounds better than what I said, though I still lean towards Fox having the advantage in this MU. For the amount of KO options Peach has, what Fox has is enough to KO her as well.

F-air and D-air have punishable cooldown, d-air being the much safer one. You shouldn't be trying to trade with the moves, it's better to wait for it to end and punish it.

I don't think online matches are representative of the MU, honestly.

Granted, this is an MU I've seldom played in tournaments, since there are very few Peach players around, kinda makes me want to pick up my Melee main again. I'm going to wait to see what others watching this thread have to say regarding this MU.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

True as long as you can space with peach and auto cancel then really she won't have too much of a tough time.
But like I said before she's not great at dealing with fast characters in general, so captain falcon for instance can get in quick hits(that Uair is rediculouse.)
Fox clearly has less reliable KO moves and peach is better for that in general.

Up smash from peach KOs pretty early if sweet spotted.

Fsmash has great range and is fast, best to hit with tennis racket because of its insanly high base knock back that can easily get fox offstage.

Fair it's somewhat fast startup and excellent range and hits far and it can be lead into from a DThrow, Dtilt, Ftlt, Utilt(possibly).

Dsmash while not too reliable is very quick and can KO when used near the edge.

Nair can KO at like 130 and it is extremely helpful when gimping fox with both fire fox and fox illusion, I swear I think I had times where it hits them even if they angle it upwards while your above them.

Bair I wouldn't consider this extremely reliable because it's ending lag and it's short range, it's power isn't really any better then Nair

Peach parasol you would be surprised how this can KO, and because fox is so easily juggled, you can get in some up air strings then finish your combo with this move.

Toad is actually surprisingly helpful because fix is mostly going to come in for some hits and wil often play aggressive at some points, this is where toad comes in if you are having trouble dealing with pressure, it deals almost 20% damage and KOs below 150 , situational, but worth it.

So yea peach has a wide variety of KO moves, I know her Up and Ftilts can KO but they require you to be at least like 140

Btw my NNID is smashdemon, add me sometime so we can play, if you see me online, just keep a game open and I should eventually see it. I main both Peach and Kirby with my secondaries being yoshi(not too great, trying to learn to egg throw without SOMEHOW using his jump) jigglypuff and Zelda(Need to learn more about her AT to fully utilize her)
Playing with the game pad is not like the GGC

 

[Timbers]

It's very hard for me to form an opinion on Peach. There's a lot of potential in this character that is not being utilized by like 99% of Peach mains. I'm inclined to place the MU in Fox's favor, but stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd8fjsvzvlU gives Peach some incredible movement, and I'm anxious to see what else can come from Peach.

I'm still of the opinion that any character that can force air-to-air with Fox is going to have a good time (Jiggs, MK, Kirby) but Peach not having multiple jumps does help Fox a lot here.

Peach's ability to float+nair is stupid good at intercepting Fox's sideB.

 

[misterbreadcrum]

It's very hard for me to form an opinion on Peach. There's a lot of potential in this character that is not being utilized by like 99% of Peach mains. I'm inclined to place the MU in Fox's favor, but stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd8fjsvzvlU gives Peach some incredible movement, and I'm anxious to see what else can come from Peach.

I'm still of the opinion that any character that can force air-to-air with Fox is going to have a good time (Jiggs, MK, Kirby) but Peach not having multiple jumps does help Fox a lot here.

Peach's ability to float+nair is stupid good at intercepting Fox's sideB.

From what I've seen online (streams and tournies) there aren't a lot of dedicated Peach mains, and that really excites me. While I don't think this game is as competitively rich as some others, I think there is a LOT that is yet to be explored.

Pikachu is both an example of what I just described, and of what you described in forcing air to air. She also wins the air to air in my opinion. I wish more people played Pikachu so that I could emulate them and learn the character, because I think she's also top tier.

 

[Timbers]

From what I've seen online (streams and tournies) there aren't a lot of dedicated Peach mains, and that really excites me. While I don't think this game is as competitively rich as some others, I think there is a LOT that is yet to be explored.

Pikachu is both an example of what I just described, and of what you described in forcing air to air. She also wins the air to air in my opinion. I wish more people played Pikachu so that I could emulate them and learn the character, because I think she's also top tier.

I definitely don't believe that she's top tier. A good character, but anyone that can disrespect her float/range with a good sh aerial game or great zone options will wall her out pretty easily. The fact that Diddy can just sh fair spam to great effect at keeping her out is a testament to her flaws. Fox doesn't have either of these though, and so I wouldn't be surprised if she winds up having a good MU with Fox.

But I can't possibly imagine she can hold a place as a top tier. High tier? Maybe, but this isn't really the place to discuss Peach's future.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

True as long as you can space with peach and auto cancel then really she won't have too much of a tough time.
But like I said before she's not great at dealing with fast characters in general, so captain falcon for instance can get in quick hits(that Uair is rediculouse.)
Fox clearly has less reliable KO moves and peach is better for that in general.

Up smash from peach KOs pretty early if sweet spotted.

Fsmash has great range and is fast, best to hit with tennis racket because of its insanly high base knock back that can easily get fox offstage.

Fair it's somewhat fast startup and excellent range and hits far and it can be lead into from a DThrow, Dtilt, Ftlt, Utilt(possibly).

Dsmash while not too reliable is very quick and can KO when used near the edge.

Nair can KO at like 130 and it is extremely helpful when gimping fox with both fire fox and fox illusion, I swear I think I had times where it hits them even if they angle it upwards while your above them.

Bair I wouldn't consider this extremely reliable because it's ending lag and it's short range, it's power isn't really any better then Nair

Peach parasol you would be surprised how this can KO, and because fox is so easily juggled, you can get in some up air strings then finish your combo with this move.

Toad is actually surprisingly helpful because fix is mostly going to come in for some hits and wil often play aggressive at some points, this is where toad comes in if you are having trouble dealing with pressure, it deals almost 20% damage and KOs below 150 , situational, but worth it.

So yea peach has a wide variety of KO moves, I know her Up and Ftilts can KO but they require you to be at least like 140

I definitely don't believe that she's top tier. A good character, but anyone that can disrespect her float/range with a good sh aerial game or great zone options will wall her out pretty easily. The fact that Diddy can just sh fair spam to great effect at keeping her out is a testament to her flaws. Fox doesn't have either of these though, and so I wouldn't be surprised if she winds up having a good MU with Fox.

But I can't possibly imagine she can hold a place as a top tier. High tier? Maybe, but this isn't really the place to discuss Peach's future.

Yea I agree with what you say. peach has many options and a great recover, but characters that can SH ariels, especially fast characters can easily apply alot of pressure to her, which is one of her flaws, but if you can predict the movement, sometimes the tilts and smashes can save you

 

[DEHF]

All of the match ups listed here should be discussed before a ratio is decided . Moyshe or whoever is going to control this thread, organize a discussion for each individual match up. For the time being, I would recommend taking off all of the ratios on thread, it will help deter off topic discussions about different match ups.

The design for the chart looks awesome btw

 

[DavemanCozy]

All of the match ups listed here should be discussed before a ratio is decided . Moyshe or whoever is going to control this thread, organize a discussion for each individual match up. For the time being, I would recommend taking off all of the ratios on thread, it will help deter off topic discussions about different match ups.

The design for the chart looks awesome btw

I started a thread in the hopes of refining these numbers:
http://smashboards.com/threads/all-...read-week-1-toon-link-link-little-mac.393061/

 

[Gunslinger]

Numbers in the OP are pretty extreme. I feel like most of the 70:30 matchups listed are closer to 60:40 or even 55:45.

The one I do have input on is Falco, however. I just spent a decent amount of time playing against a good Falco yesterday, and the matchup felt about 55:45 Fox. Falco has very limited options against Fox, but what he does have is amazing against us. His Jabs actually clank with ours, but he tends to win any up front boxing match because his jabs have much higher priority and a larger hitbox (I think). We can actually gimp him, but one Fair from him means we also die off the ledge easy.

This doesn't help when Falco has a killing Bthrow and excellent spacing tools. It becomes hard to deal with a campy Falco in his shield at the edge when you are near death.

That being said, as usual, Fox runs circles around Falco, has far better kill setups and racks damage quicker. We punish his mistakes really hard, and I got the feeling from my matches yesterday that if you avoid the grab and getting tossed offstage, he has a real hard time landing any killing attack (Smashes, Bair, Uair) against us, and we can exploit that easily by playing elusively.

Feels pretty even, but Fox can force Falco into bad spots when Falco makes a mistake, and Fox is a better punisher. Definitely feels 55:45.

Falco outspaces us and has better stage control while we have more mobility and kill moves, yet both of us have ridiculous punish game? Sounds like Melee.

 

[M@v]

Hey guys, we should keep the matchup discussion to one thread. Therefore, I'm going to lock this thread. The thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/all-...read-week-1-toon-link-link-little-mac.393061/ is doing things week by week, so we will be able to get the most accurate numbers as possible. This thread is also linked in that thread. So, if you need to reference this thread for any reason, use the link in there