Fox patch 1.10 changes

[leesinger]

Ok, serious question. Did fox's lasers have shield pushback prepatch? I seriously don't remember them having knockback on shield. Cause they do now, (if they didn't already).

 

[Luig]

Yes, lasers have always pushback in shield.

Shine has always come out on frame one, but the hitbox lasts one frame longer now.

1 frame- 2 frames

 

[Yogehi]

Yes, lasers have always pushback in shield.

Shine has always come out on frame one, but the hitbox lasts one frame longer now.

1 frame- 2 frames

you sure? going by http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Fox the hitbox on shine was active on frame 6

 

[Luig]

It is? Well, I just thought it was Sanic fast. Well, what we do know is that its hitbox lasts for 2 frames.

 

[Kofeezy]

I'm legit salty guys. They should have made it so after a set of jabs you can't cancel the move into another set of jabs, not ruin the move altogether. I'd even take jab-jab, shield grab over what we have now. Would have given us Fox mains something to work with. Very unfortunate the way they chose to deal with this.

 

[Rhus]

I'm legit salty guys. They should have made it so after a set of jabs you can't cancel the move into another set of jabs, not ruin the move altogether. I'd even take jab-jab, shield grab over what we have now. Would have given us Fox mains something to work with. Very unfortunate the way they chose to deal with this.

While I'm upset about how they handled it, there are some redeeming things about the change.

He can Jab>Jab>running Usmash at the tip of his jabs (not sure who this works on right now, works on Mario in any case).

Fox can footstool out of the tip of his jabs and follow up with a falling Nair/Dair into pivot Ftilt or running Usmash.

At low percents, Jab>Jab>turnaround Utilt still works. Ftilt still works at mid percents.

Finally, he can Jab>Jab>Dash attack which opens for Uair.

Try not to be salty, everyone. There's things we can still do, we just have to rethink how we do it and (sadly) forget what we knew before about it. If we explore every avenue of it and it ends up being awful, then everyone's allowed to be sour.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So, how much worse is Fox now? Is this nerf like Diddy's nerf, or like Sonic's nerf, or in the middle, or better than those nerfs?

 

[Foster J.]

So, how much worse is Fox now? Is this nerf like Diddy's nerf, or like Sonic's nerf, or in the middle, or better than those nerfs?

Uhhhh... Hard to say? I mean we lost a tool we use in neutral, now hitting Kirby is a lot harder because we can't scoop him up in the air as easy anymore. So no more JabJab Pivot Utilt or JabJab Grab. Basicly Fox lost a lot of stage control, and didn't get any throw follow ups /sigh

 

[Wintermelon43]

Uhhhh... Hard to say? I mean we lost a tool we use in neutral, now hitting Kirby is a lot harder because we can't scoop him up in the air as easy anymore. So no more JabJab Pivot Utilt or JabJab Grab. Basicly Fox lost a lot of stage control, and didn't get any throw follow ups /sigh

How badly does this affect him in viability? For example, if Fox was in 6th place in a tier list (FOR EXAMPLE. I'M NOT SAYING FOX IS 6th) where would he be now?

 

[Tenretsujin10]

How badly does this affect him in viability? For example, if Fox was in 6th place in a tier list (FOR EXAMPLE. I'M NOT SAYING FOX IS 6th) where would he be now?

They don't shove him down the standings in my opinion, Fox can still do some jab techs. Fox still has plenty of trusty kill setups.

 

[Wintermelon43]

They don't shove him down the standings in my opinion, Fox can still do some jab techs. Fox still has plenty of trusty kill setups.

So does he even go down a little, or does he stay the same?

And, why do I sound like an interviewer?

 

[Bread on the Table]

Zero tweeted that he thinks Fox was overall buffed?? Perhaps he knows more applications for the new jabs? Anyone have any insight on this?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Probably would just stick to listening to Fox mains about whether he got buffed or not lol. Also I don't think the jab thing is a HUGE hit. Just requires a bit more work on our end in some areas and I still want to see where the shine buff goes, because I was stage spiking people with it yesterday lol. As for Fox moving up or down on the tier list it's hard to call so early given the changes that everyone got. I think some of the Luigi changes could maybe help us out a bit in the grand scheme of things tho and Sheik getting additional landing lag frames on fair makes utilt OoS even better against her, so there's those things.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Zero tweeted that he thinks Fox was overall buffed?? Perhaps he knows more applications for the new jabs? Anyone have any insight on this?

Yeah, don't take anything Zero says seriously.

 

[Foster J.]

Fox is going to fall a few placements until ZeRo presents why he thinks he was buffed. I've just spent an hour playing a Sonic main and not being able to get the KO at any point is such a huge turnoff playing this character.

 

[FirahDingo]

Why didn't they just remove the infinite without taking away our ability to follow up with other stuff rather than another set of jabs? This is really making me sad.
Does anyone know if it's still possible to follow up with anything after a jab?

 

[Steam]

Fox could jabjab Lucario, but Lucario just needed rage to kill Fox, so really, what can we do against Lucario now?

Still win the matchup easily because lucario has almost no tools against fox at neutral. Rage makes lucario's killpower incredible, but it doesn't make it any easier to to land kill moves on fox (nearly impossible unless fox makes a big mistake). The matchup is a little more even now but still incredibly lame because lucario will just continue to sit in shield til megahigh% then try to kill fox at 40% http://gfycat.com/UltimatePreciousBlackbird

 

[Ralph Cecil]

It is with the right spacing lol. I think the increased window to rapid jab would've been enough of a nerf to remove what they wanted, but they kind of went with overkill.

 

[Foster J.]

Still win the matchup easily because lucario has almost no tools against fox at neutral. Rage makes lucario's killpower incredible, but it doesn't make it any easier to to land kill moves on fox (nearly impossible unless fox makes a big mistake). The matchup is a little more even now but still incredibly lame because lucario will just continue to sit in shield til megahigh% then try to kill fox at 40% http://gfycat.com/UltimatePreciousBlackbird

Fox is light, and dies to rage, making Lucario one of his worst MU's IMO. Now it's easier for Lucario due to Fox having lost a tool. So.... it's basicly just in your favour as we can't combo you as much, and you can counter in jabs if he tries going for more? Who cares no more JabJab Dsmash

 

[Logo12]

So, how much worse is Fox now? Is this nerf like Diddy's nerf, or like Sonic's nerf, or in the middle, or better than those nerfs?

I feel like it's much worse than their nerfs. Basically they took one of our most useful tool and shoved some random shine buff to us, when the shine was already overkilled to nothing other than reflecting or stalling fall.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

HONESTLY, after labbing some Fox tech on the 3DS while waiting in line for the Dark Pit amiibo, I found that while Fox has lost some options with jabs, he also gained some!

Example: You can Jab 1-2 (Sourspot that pushes them horizontally), D-tilt (Sweetspot), into Up-Air. Tested on Wii U against my friend shortly after and it seems legitimate!

So does he even go down a little, or does he stay the same?

And, why do I sound like an interviewer?

He stays the same, His pre-patch jabs didn't make the character. Only significant thing he lost was Jab-jab down smash on the ledge, but that's no big deal.

 

[Foster J.]

Been working a bit with the lag, it seems perfect spaced Jab Jab to Usmash is a true combo in some scenarios.

I was able to make it a true combo against Sheik at 130 and Mario at 140. Haven't tested anything else... is this actually a big buff?

This is DI'able though, if they DI towards you it's like a true combo from lower percentages, but away you'll need to chase

It seems, if you hit them in the back, and due to you hitting them as they turn around mid air and thus gets a pixel closer to you, you can do a standing Usmash which will connect and be the true combo part.
Meaning it's frames away on the chase way

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Been working a bit with the lag, it seems perfect spaced Jab Jab to Usmash is a true combo in some scenarios.

I was able to make it a true combo against Sheik at 130 and Mario at 140. Haven't tested anything else... is this actually a big buff?

This is DI'able though, if they DI towards you it's like a true combo from lower percentages, but away you'll need to chase

My friend couldn't get out of this combo today. The biggest buff to these jabs is that it helps a lot against fast fallers who can combo break you.

 

[BradLeeTee]

I really have mixed feeling towards this change. Trying to shine spike was actually the first thing I tried when I hit the lab and when it worked I got extremely hyped, but then I tried to jab and almost died inside. I thought perfect pivots might help make jab jab utilt work again but I can't confirm if this works or not since I suck ass at pp's, has anyone tried this yet?

 

[Tenretsujin10]

I really have mixed feeling towards this change. Trying to shine spike was actually the first thing I tried when I hit the lab and when it worked I got extremely hyped, but then I tried to jab and almost died inside. I thought perfect pivots might help make jab jab utilt work again but I can't confirm if this works or not since I suck *** at pp's, has anyone tried this yet?

Jab Jab U-tilt still works. even without Perfect pivot.

 

[Foster J.]

Jab Jab U-tilt still works. even without Perfect pivot.

It's another spacing thing though

 

[Tenretsujin10]

It's another spacing thing though

It feels that this works at different percentages between both sweetspot and sourspot.

 

[SUPERJEM94]

I'm able to jab>jab>turn around>utilt>uair around 80% seems to be a true combo on some characters. You just have to do it fast.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Why didn't they just remove the infinite without taking away our ability to follow up with other stuff rather than another set of jabs? This is really making me sad.
Does anyone know if it's still possible to follow up with anything after a jab?

yes you can still follow up with things after a jab.
I dont get this thread, people keep complaining/asking about no more jab follow ups, then someone will post some new jab followups they found, and seeminlgly get ignored and people go back to complaining about no followups again. Are people not reading this thread?

End of the day, this happened, we lost some things, we gained some things, give it time and new options will emerge, even if this makes fox worse overall it wont be by much in a game where he already most likely isnt top 10, just work hard and play hard with fox and you'll do fine.

Also its so easy to get people to start shielding against fox, if he'd gotten a kill throw he'd be overpowered and that would make me sad

 

[Bread on the Table]

he was definitely top 10 before the patch

 

[Comorant]

he was definitely top 10 before the patch

Fox being top ten is kinda a iffy claim. He was viable for sure and he had good results behind him, but in all honesty he had a lot of slightly unfavorable to pretty bad matchups. He just happened to have good enough tools to make a lot of those manageable. Where he goes now we'll have to see. He still has some interesting followups to his jab, but a good number are significantly harder to pull off.

EDIT: Also interesting to note is Larry Lurr also talks about the new Jab kill setups potentially being a buff against his bad matchups, particularly Sheik. Perhaps it isn't too bad?

 

[tears in rain]

This really sucks bad, it's not just the jab combo but it's everything it leads into. It really helped control the pace of the game and combo'd into so many variations for big damage. Welp, time to get more creative....I guess.

This right here. They have crippled the play style of Fox for what reason, exactly? Somebody tell me, because it doesn't make sense. Smash Bros. Wii U has been out for 11 months; until now he'd remained mostly untouched - why the big change? He wasn't broken or imbalanced; he was a very technical character that could do amazing things when in the hands of the right person(s).

I can understand wanting to remove the infinite jab lock combo - Nintendo went too far with the changes, though. Here's hoping it was an honest mistake; they weren't thinking of the bigger picture when they made the call. That, or they gutted him on purpose for reasons unknown.

Edit: reading more of the comments here, it seems like they might be trying to steer the character into something vaguely resembling Melee Fox. Reducing end lag on lasers, buffing shine spike's knockback slightly and its hitbox duration.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Fox is still good, even with these changes. Jabs are still great (rapid jab is actually useful).

 

[Underhill]

Why did they have to nerf his jab lock? Without it, its hard to create kill set ups to up smash and also to set up for a grab. There was nothing wrong with Fox and now, they decided to take it away from him which I wasn't happy about. The other buffs, good for him, but the jab lock, WHY?

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Okay, enough. This thread became nothing except for people whining because they can't do jab combos like prepatch. It's pathetic.

 

[Steam]

Fox is light, and dies to rage, making Lucario one of his worst MU's IMO. Now it's easier for Lucario due to Fox having lost a tool. So.... it's basicly just in your favour as we can't combo you as much, and you can counter in jabs if he tries going for more? Who cares no more JabJab Dsmash

Pre patch the general consensus was that fox won the matchup quite hard since he shut down lucario completely at neutral. Even with jab changes fox still dominates neutral and definitely still wins. Aura means nothing if luc can never hit the opponent. Luc loses to sheik for the same reasons and she doesn't negate lucario's best move (aurasphere) like fox does

 

[Foster J.]

Pre patch the general consensus was that fox won the matchup quite hard since he shut down lucario completely at neutral. Even with jab changes fox still dominates neutral and definitely still wins. Aura means nothing if luc can never hit the opponent. Luc loses to sheik for the same reasons and she doesn't negate lucario's best move (aurasphere) like fox does

No MU is unwinnable in this game. And Lucario v Fox is no different. I don't know who the Lucario players are claiming it so, but we've got 3 JungeBug videos showing that he only lost against Phenom at Aftershock in those 3.
As a matter of fact he took Snowballbob and Shofu for a ride. Cause ya know, just 1 single read of any kind kills Fox if Lucario has rage.

So no, Fox didn't win the matchup back then, but you could argue it was in his favour due to him being faster and having fast frame data. However he is the fastest faller so Fox gets combo'd to ****.

So if your argument is that a close range jab wins neutral due to how it worked extremely well against Lucario, then I don't know what to tell ya mate, cause if you're missing jabs and not getting punished, then it's the Lucario goofing.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

No MU is unwinnable in this game. And Lucario v Fox is no different. I don't know who the Lucario players are claiming it so, but we've got 3 JungeBug videos showing that he only lost against Phenom at Aftershock in those 3.
As a matter of fact he took Snowballbob and Shofu for a ride. Cause ya know, just 1 single read of any kind kills Fox if Lucario has rage.

So no, Fox didn't win the matchup back then, but you could argue it was in his favour due to him being faster and having fast frame data. However he is the fastest faller so Fox gets combo'd to ****.

So if your argument is that a close range jab wins neutral due to how it worked extremely well against Lucario, then I don't know what to tell ya mate, cause if you're missing jabs and not getting punished, then it's the Lucario goofing.

Actually, prepatch jab shut down lucario. Post patch jabs are also still super good against lucario. Also, I've seen steams lucario perform at tournaments uploaded on youtube and I'd consider him a top lucario player in the states.

 

[GLaDOS 3000]

Okay, enough. This thread became nothing except for people whining because they can't do jab combos like prepatch. It's pathetic.

Dude, chill. People are right to be concerned. Fox's jab combo was a seriously good tool, and it's a shame to lose it, especially since fox was in no way overpowered before this patch. Larry was the only fox in top 32 at CEO and he and Bloodcross the only two at Evo.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

Fox will be fine, personally I like the idea that he's not easy to use. He was always a smart character; meaning that he rewards good play and not being reckless. He's light but fast, and has the tools to get by. Is he overpowered of course not and I will admit that he does have unfavorable matchups but unfavorable doesn't necessarily mean impossible