Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Made this post over on the tier list thread, but then everyone remembered they were stupid and started discussing Pichu>Kirby again. Would like discussion plz.
I haven't made a long post on smashboards in a while and it was either this or study for a med school admissions test next week, so this is where my priorities lie. I know everyone likes KK's ties idea of Fox/Falco because it's easier due to how close they are, but the fact is that they aren't, one's better then the other. For years I've thought Fox>Falco, recently I've re-evaluated and can't come to a conclusion. So here it is, laid out for us to make a judgement.
Game play elements: Who is better at what?
Edge guarding – Tie. Fox's shine spike is about as amazing as Falco's lasers here (might not seem it, but stealing second jumps and forcing your opponent to recover in the position YOU want is awesome). Both have invincibility frame renewable ledge hop B Air taking out anything and everything and both can also on stage F Smash/D Smash/whatever if they want. Falco's D Air is awesome too, but it doesn't really accomplish what couldn't be done by listed above.
Outright kills – Fox. Don't get me wrong, Falco never has a problem killing with super strong F Smash and B Air and spike and edge guards and whatnot, but Fox's U Smash is better then anything Falco has on the ground and U Air is a better aerial finisher then anything Falco has (SDI isn't consistent yet and B Air in place of it gives screwed up DI fun). Vertical killing is just better these days and Falco doesn't have it as good.
Shield pressure – Falco. Fox's is more air tight frame wise and more difficult to get out of, but Falco's punishment disparity more then compensates. If Fox's N Air/D Air breaks through, he can't react in time to continue guaranteed, the opponent can implement defensive options, and the same is true of the shine. Fox's shine breaking through near the edge is awesome because it knocks the opponent off, but this makes it situational, something Falco's is not. Falco's shine's monster stun means you can react and continue a combo consistently from a hit, if D Air hits it leads straight into shine anyway. Both are about as good at escaping, with super awesome aerials and shine OOS being gay and broken. Shine grab is equally retardedly good for both.
Stage control – Falco. Fox has the best mobility in the game as well a lovely gun himself, but Falco has a gun which stuns and is thus lovelier. Powershielding isn't a particular threat as long as you don't laser in the “can be attacked following the PS range” and Falco has a lot of options avoiding PS'd lasers. The fact is he controls the movement game where as Fox is just the best at the movement game.
Comboing – Falco. Falco combos everyone (yeah, actually everyone) with the best launcher and spike in the game with loads of gay finishing from the likes of B Air, spike and quirky smash combos. Fox is so close with the lameness of a set knockback move with always guaranteed ish after (including possibly the best kill smash in the game) but falls back a bit against characters like Puff and Samus and generally people who fall down from the shine. His combos are also effected more by SDI, not just the fact that one day D Air (I'm sceptical but maybe) and U Air could be consistently avoiding the latter hits, N Air also starts to send too far. Falco is comparatively unaffected.
Grabs – Fox. This section kinda ties in with comboing but I thought it deserves its own. Both are amazing at forcing them with shield pressure and the aforementioned awesome of shine grabs, as well as both D Airs comboing into it (maybe Falco's slightly better at forcing due to lasers), but Falco's tricksies with messed up DI hits don't compensate for the cold hard gay of Fox's U Throw. Guaranteed combos on large portions of the cast with either edge guard or straight out kill from B Air/U Air. While Falco has grab combos against FFers sometimes, Fox still wins due to U Smash and CG, and later B Air/U Air.
Matchups:
These are all kinda my opinion, but I'll try to exercise conservatism when necessary. I've probably argued all of them in depth at some point but currently cba. It's fine if you have a differing view(though doubtless it's because I'm like 5 off yours and not worth debating), but if it's actually a view that opposes mine pretty drastically I'll discuss it in the MU thread gladly.
vs Themselves – Even. I might lean towards 55-45 Falco because of how much easier execution for him in the matchup is (Fox has to react to loads of **** with pinpoint accuracy while Falco can do some easy auto combos) but it's really close whatever.
vs Puff – Fox. I think Puff goes even with Falco because Falco still retains comboing, lasers (Puff is the best in the game at getting round these, but lasers are lasers) and high priority aerial awesome, but yeah Fox beats Puff like 60-40.
vs Sheik – Even. I think both go 50-50 with her, though the consensus is that Fox does better.
vs Marth – Even. Pretty much the same as above, though if anyone does better it's Fox by 5 or something negligible.
vs Peach – Fox. By like a lot. I think Falco wins 55-45, Fox on the other hand molests Peach. I won't quantify it, but it's ****.
vs Falcon – Even. I like Scar's 65-35 for both idea, though it often doesn't pan out this way because Falcon can punish mistakes pretty drastically and spacies players are often stupid.
vs IC's – Fox. Fox exploits everything that's fundamentally flawed about Icies pretty well (not the unholiness of Peach vs IC's but yeah). Falco wins slightly, people arguing 50-50 underrate that Falco has a one frame super separator that leads to him comboing the balls off which ever he chooses + he kills Nana sooo well.
Dr Mario, Ganondorf etc. (aka meh they can do OK in tournament tier) – Even. Both have advantages on all, though no greater then 60-40. Samus doesn't beat Falco, <3 Hugs but no.
Not tournament viable tier – Not worth debating, no real effect on tier position, suffice to say both always have the advantage.
Tournament representation:
I've gotta give this to Falco. Fox is extremely common and there are more decent Fox mains then any other character, plus he's probably the most common secondary, nearly every top player has a Fox. However, at the very highest level the only real Fox main representation is Jman who consistently places top 10 at nationals (not Lucky really, though I guess you can make an argument for him). He also probably places higher then any Falco on average (though don't quote me on this, I haven't checked). Jman could be thought of as an outlier player in this regard. Falco's representation on the other hand has Zhu, Shiz, Dr Peepee and arguably Lamchops all consistently placing very high. Overall, Falco does better. I think you can attribute this mainly to Fox's very high necessary precision, making him the more inconsistent of the two in tournament.
Would love to hear everyone's views, unless it's regarding my screwed up priorities.
I haven't made a long post on smashboards in a while and it was either this or study for a med school admissions test next week, so this is where my priorities lie. I know everyone likes KK's ties idea of Fox/Falco because it's easier due to how close they are, but the fact is that they aren't, one's better then the other. For years I've thought Fox>Falco, recently I've re-evaluated and can't come to a conclusion. So here it is, laid out for us to make a judgement.
Game play elements: Who is better at what?
Edge guarding – Tie. Fox's shine spike is about as amazing as Falco's lasers here (might not seem it, but stealing second jumps and forcing your opponent to recover in the position YOU want is awesome). Both have invincibility frame renewable ledge hop B Air taking out anything and everything and both can also on stage F Smash/D Smash/whatever if they want. Falco's D Air is awesome too, but it doesn't really accomplish what couldn't be done by listed above.
Outright kills – Fox. Don't get me wrong, Falco never has a problem killing with super strong F Smash and B Air and spike and edge guards and whatnot, but Fox's U Smash is better then anything Falco has on the ground and U Air is a better aerial finisher then anything Falco has (SDI isn't consistent yet and B Air in place of it gives screwed up DI fun). Vertical killing is just better these days and Falco doesn't have it as good.
Shield pressure – Falco. Fox's is more air tight frame wise and more difficult to get out of, but Falco's punishment disparity more then compensates. If Fox's N Air/D Air breaks through, he can't react in time to continue guaranteed, the opponent can implement defensive options, and the same is true of the shine. Fox's shine breaking through near the edge is awesome because it knocks the opponent off, but this makes it situational, something Falco's is not. Falco's shine's monster stun means you can react and continue a combo consistently from a hit, if D Air hits it leads straight into shine anyway. Both are about as good at escaping, with super awesome aerials and shine OOS being gay and broken. Shine grab is equally retardedly good for both.
Stage control – Falco. Fox has the best mobility in the game as well a lovely gun himself, but Falco has a gun which stuns and is thus lovelier. Powershielding isn't a particular threat as long as you don't laser in the “can be attacked following the PS range” and Falco has a lot of options avoiding PS'd lasers. The fact is he controls the movement game where as Fox is just the best at the movement game.
Comboing – Falco. Falco combos everyone (yeah, actually everyone) with the best launcher and spike in the game with loads of gay finishing from the likes of B Air, spike and quirky smash combos. Fox is so close with the lameness of a set knockback move with always guaranteed ish after (including possibly the best kill smash in the game) but falls back a bit against characters like Puff and Samus and generally people who fall down from the shine. His combos are also effected more by SDI, not just the fact that one day D Air (I'm sceptical but maybe) and U Air could be consistently avoiding the latter hits, N Air also starts to send too far. Falco is comparatively unaffected.
Grabs – Fox. This section kinda ties in with comboing but I thought it deserves its own. Both are amazing at forcing them with shield pressure and the aforementioned awesome of shine grabs, as well as both D Airs comboing into it (maybe Falco's slightly better at forcing due to lasers), but Falco's tricksies with messed up DI hits don't compensate for the cold hard gay of Fox's U Throw. Guaranteed combos on large portions of the cast with either edge guard or straight out kill from B Air/U Air. While Falco has grab combos against FFers sometimes, Fox still wins due to U Smash and CG, and later B Air/U Air.
Matchups:
These are all kinda my opinion, but I'll try to exercise conservatism when necessary. I've probably argued all of them in depth at some point but currently cba. It's fine if you have a differing view(though doubtless it's because I'm like 5 off yours and not worth debating), but if it's actually a view that opposes mine pretty drastically I'll discuss it in the MU thread gladly.
vs Themselves – Even. I might lean towards 55-45 Falco because of how much easier execution for him in the matchup is (Fox has to react to loads of **** with pinpoint accuracy while Falco can do some easy auto combos) but it's really close whatever.
vs Puff – Fox. I think Puff goes even with Falco because Falco still retains comboing, lasers (Puff is the best in the game at getting round these, but lasers are lasers) and high priority aerial awesome, but yeah Fox beats Puff like 60-40.
vs Sheik – Even. I think both go 50-50 with her, though the consensus is that Fox does better.
vs Marth – Even. Pretty much the same as above, though if anyone does better it's Fox by 5 or something negligible.
vs Peach – Fox. By like a lot. I think Falco wins 55-45, Fox on the other hand molests Peach. I won't quantify it, but it's ****.
vs Falcon – Even. I like Scar's 65-35 for both idea, though it often doesn't pan out this way because Falcon can punish mistakes pretty drastically and spacies players are often stupid.
vs IC's – Fox. Fox exploits everything that's fundamentally flawed about Icies pretty well (not the unholiness of Peach vs IC's but yeah). Falco wins slightly, people arguing 50-50 underrate that Falco has a one frame super separator that leads to him comboing the balls off which ever he chooses + he kills Nana sooo well.
Dr Mario, Ganondorf etc. (aka meh they can do OK in tournament tier) – Even. Both have advantages on all, though no greater then 60-40. Samus doesn't beat Falco, <3 Hugs but no.
Not tournament viable tier – Not worth debating, no real effect on tier position, suffice to say both always have the advantage.
Tournament representation:
I've gotta give this to Falco. Fox is extremely common and there are more decent Fox mains then any other character, plus he's probably the most common secondary, nearly every top player has a Fox. However, at the very highest level the only real Fox main representation is Jman who consistently places top 10 at nationals (not Lucky really, though I guess you can make an argument for him). He also probably places higher then any Falco on average (though don't quote me on this, I haven't checked). Jman could be thought of as an outlier player in this regard. Falco's representation on the other hand has Zhu, Shiz, Dr Peepee and arguably Lamchops all consistently placing very high. Overall, Falco does better. I think you can attribute this mainly to Fox's very high necessary precision, making him the more inconsistent of the two in tournament.
Would love to hear everyone's views, unless it's regarding my screwed up priorities.
