Fox moveset tier list!

[viparagon]

why is shine so high?

 

[M@v]

Don't flame me, I just joined this site, I don't know any better. ;]

I know how to play fox, probably a lot better than you, just a heads up.

One thing is for sure though. You know a hell of a lot less about fox than he does.

why is shine so high?

It may not be the offensive Combing machine it was in melee, but shine is fox's best defensive option.

-It is the best reflector in the game; it comes out the fastest and covers all of fox

-It can be used to shine stall, which an excellent defensive move to throw off opponents attacks. It is also useful for mindgames.

-Due to its speed, shine can stop a potential combo. It is fox's fastest move along with uptilt.

-Shine spiking

-It reflects projectiles. NO WAY!!!!

 

[Zhamy]

One thing is for sure though. You know a hell of a lot less about fox than he does.

See, I'm not sure if that's a compliment or an insult, the fact that I'm being compared to him. But <3 M@v <3

Don't flame me, I just joined this site, I don't know any better. ;]

Then lurk and learn before you post.

 

[KheldarVII]

Isn't Fox's jab faster than shine and U-tilt?

 

[B%B]

It was a joke, my old account got banned, I've been lurking since 05, and started posting in 07.

I know a lot about fox, everything there is to know about him.

Anywho, besides all that ****. Would any of you like to play me on Wifi? I want some match-up experience for my newly picked up Yoshi.

I can use my Sonic too, if you'd like.

 

[Shadow_Bane]

Who the f*** are you? It's overused because generally most Fox players think it's some sort of God-tier move and use it as thier primary aerial.

If Fox didn't have utilt, his moveset would be mediocre. Utilt and usmash are Foxs' two best moves.........period.

I'm a Fox mainer...duh...[again].

Anyway without his dair it would be the same there too.

Hey what do you guys/girls think of his fsmash being higher.
Cause it covers part of the top.
And you can KO some stuff if they're 100%+.

 

[KheldarVII]

I think the reverse U-smash might KO better than the F-smash. F-smash barely goes anywhere at 100%.

 

[Mi1oo]

Who the f*** are you? It's overused because generally most Fox players think it's some sort of God-tier move and use it as thier primary aerial.

If Fox didn't have utilt, his moveset would be mediocre. Utilt and usmash are Foxs' two best moves.........period.

I could write another 2 pages of dialog of why dair is better than utilt and get people to back me up but I don’t think it’s worth convincing you.

Except that Uair is much more difficult to hit than Bair, does little for spacing, and you can't shorthop bait with it, punish bad approaches, and gimp.

You can’t just name Bair advantages and not Upairs.. Upair kill at low percent on many stages off high plat forms, You CAN short hop bait with it against characters like MK than like floating above you since you can auto cancel short hop just like bair, also it has 2 hits, the 1st hit is only 2 damage but can sets up quicker and can still stun them into a tilt or smash attack if the ground is near. Fast falling upair also works wonders if you can time it right..

 

[PhilMcCloud17]

The lasers aren't important. It's like an instant teleport above you. It's a better mindgame than the D-throw approach.

And somebody tell me why B-throw is higher than U-throw? Honestly. Can you F-air after a B-throw? I didn't think so.

I agree 100% with these statements.

 

[PhilMcCloud17]

I think the reverse U-smash might KO better than the F-smash. F-smash barely goes anywhere at 100%.

well that depends on how u connect with the move doesnt it?? Because Marth cant kill you at 150 with a fully charged fsmash with the middle of his blade. (the tip will kill u at 80 though).

 

[-Mars-]

I could write another 2 pages of dialog of why dair is better than utilt and get people to back me up but I don’t think it’s worth convincing you.

Uhhhh......no you couldn't.

 

[Mi1oo]

Pfft what have proven utilt=>power shield and juggle and stops some approaches from top.

 

[-Mars-]

Pfft what have proven utilt=>power shield and juggle and stops some approaches from top.

English please.

 

[Mi1oo]

Lol you going to use grammar and punctuation references now? Or actually give a decent reason why utilt>dair

 

[-Mars-]

Utilt is better than dair. That little kick has a ****load of priority and can stop a number of aerial approaches. It also clanks with moves such as Snakes ftilt and utilt. Comes out on frame 3, has little cooldown time, and combos into itself for around 30-40% every stock. If Fox didn't have this move he would be low tier.

Dair is just overused by most of the Fox players so it's overvalued. In theory, it should only be used for punishing. It has crappy priority, most characters utilts can hit you out of it. It's also never safe on shield, in the air it can be DI'ed out of, and it has little range.

Here are my reasons already previously stated in the thread.

Lol you going to use grammar and punctuation references now? Or actually give a decent reason why utilt>dair

Why don't you give reasons as to why dair>utilt? The only previous thing you have mentioned is that dair leads into kill moves.

 

[Mi1oo]

Why Dair>Utilt

Utilt is foxes best tilt

Its uses and advantages

It can juggle characters to around 30 or 40 percent if they don’t DI
Stop a number of aerial approaches with it’s decent priority.
Combos into Bair or Dair on certain characters and percentage
Great for stopping rising jump recovery off edge


Disadvantages

In many match ups your opponent will have a move that is faster e.g. fox mirrors you will find jab will come out faster and you will only be using utilt when your opponent has some lag or is right above or after Dair.
Becomes predictable that you are going to juggle at look percentages or follow utilt up with aerial at high percentages. Making it easier for the opponent to plan their DI
Is hard to find a use for it at higher percentages can sometimes be follow and does not usually lead to kill moves, although it can kill its self if high enough percentage

Dair

Its uses and advantages
Can be followed up by Dsmash, Upsmash, Utilt, Ftilt, Dtilt, shine, jab, grab, Shine
Dsmash can kill or gimp at mid low percentage
Dair into Upsmash is foxes best Ko move
Dair into Utilt listed above
Dair into Jab, jab to grab, grab leads to maybe combo or gimp
Shine out of dair if close to edge to knock off stage and lead to another shine or nair
Dair off stage, this can drill your opponent down enough that when you shine many characters wont recover, can be done at 0 percent and end up gimping.
Short hop or full hop dair is great for punishing a predicted attack or the lag after a move from your opponent
Great to mix up with short hop, if your opponent approaches while you are short hop lasering you can quickly change it to a short hop Dair.
Can be used out of rising Fair to shine stalling to a fast fall dair for great mix up
Can sometimes retreat with it if short hoped dair into opponents shield.
Can jump and perform quickly out of shield.

Disadvantages

Can be punished by shield if expected
Possible to be SDI out of
Can be out prioritized my a number of aerials if times right



You can bait your opponent with shine stalls and blaster or anything eles you can think of to make a hole for drill. Utilt doesn’t have more uses really… and jab can replace utilt in many situations or even be better than utilt if you expect a shield. Utilt can juggle sure. But after juggling percentage it’s just like another utilt. And juggling can also be DI out of just like drill. Utilt is crazy in slow pace games. Fast pace games where the momentum is going drill becomes the better move with more uses.


U tilt does have high priority but still gets beaten by some dairs and a lot of nairs. It can be easily out range also and it not always a great attack for people falling towards you. Utilt is a good move but really dair is more important to fox.

 

[Zhamy]

You can’t just name Bair advantages and not Upairs..

Okay, let's go through the supposed advantages.

Upair kill at low percent on many stages off high plat forms,

It can, but how do you plan to hit with it that high off a platform? Anyone with half a brain can see an Uair coming and airdodge through it - a ton of the cast falls fast enough so that they can airdodge through both hits of the Uair.[/quote]

You CAN short hop bait with it against characters like MK than like floating above you since you can auto cancel short hop just like bair,

Uair has substantial lag after landing, no way around it. Also, short hop baiting Uair? That has a hitbox of |, while Bair has a hitbox of [===], comparitively. MK Dair outprioritizes first hit of Uair.

also it has 2 hits, the 1st hit is only 2 damage but can sets up quicker and can still stun them into a tilt or smash attack if the ground is near.

This is not Smash 64, where you can pseudo-infinite with the first hit of Uair, or any crazy things like that. The first hit of Uair doesn't set up into anything except the second hit. It has no hitstun, you come out of with ridiculous lag, and you will get punished.

Fast falling upair also works wonders if you can time it right..

I heard that a Bair gimp also works wonders if you can time it right...(Durh, everything works if you time it right), except that Bair is so much easier to land than Uair.

In conclusion, Bair is more useful.

I think the reverse U-smash might KO better than the F-smash. F-smash barely goes anywhere at 100%.

That's not a move, that's a technique.

It was a joke, my old account got banned, I've been lurking since 05, and started posting in 07.

You were probably banned for a reason. And if so, what was your account name?

I know a lot about fox, everything there is to know about him.

Really? What's the maximum number of free frames your opponent gets from a Dair->Utilt? Minimum? What about Dair->Jab? Or Dair->Shine? What direction should you DI Sheik's tilt lock to maximize chances of survival? What's the earlist percentage you can get out from Pikachu's chainthrow, and with what SDI? What frame does the second laser of an SHDL come out, assuming you laser as fast as game mechanics allow?

Answer or STFU.

 

[Mi1oo]

Also you can combo out of Dair at any percentage, and when it does combo it usually does more damage or kills.

Zhamy you can auto cancel a short hop upair what do you mean theres no way around it…. About the platform comment I kind of meant that higher platforms help you combo with upair allowing you to get a kill easier and at lower percentage

Edit:

This is not Smash 64, where you can pseudo-infinite with the first hit of Uair, or any crazy things like that. The first hit of Uair doesn't set up into anything except the second hit. It has no hitstun, you come out of with ridiculous lag, and you will get punished.

I know it doesn’t combo into anything, but it does have enough hitstun to put you at
a-non disadvantage

 

[KheldarVII]

Alright, I didn't really mean the reverse U-smash, but the secondary knockback/hitbox it has. You know, when you hit them when Fox's foot is coming down.

 

[SCOTU]

I'm bored.

TOP:
Up smash
Up tilt
D air
N air

HIGH:
F air
d smash
D throw

MID:
Shine
Up air
b air
illusion
blaster
F tilt
Neutral A

LOW:
fire fox
F throw
Up throw
B Throw

STUPID:
dash attack
D tilt
Rapid A
f smash

 

[KheldarVII]

F-smash below D-tilt huh. I seem to recall your crusade against the dash attack so that's understandable. That's almost what mine would look like except N-air being top. That I don't get.

 

[C.R.Z]

Fair should be top next to drill -_-

 

[SCOTU]

nair is too god**** good. it's fast on comeout, putaway, and covers you better than the drill in every direction, and covers you better from below than the fair, trades or beats the shuttle loop on way up/top, can trade w/ tornado, and is otherwise, your safest aerial.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Wow, the amount of ignorance in this thread is disgusting. Please, don't everybody get mad at me from that, I will single out points I would like to make as I make them.

First of all, my first thought was that this idea is mostly useless, but I've changed my opinion. Whereas it is very difficult to rank moves against each other due to the situational nature of each move and its uses, this thread has opened up some good arguments on when and where to use different moves.

First of all, D-air is not a godly move. it leads into everything, has a lasting attack effect, and as such is a very good punisher. HOWEVER, if used in any other manner, you get shield wrecked. mostly, they don't have to predict it... Brawl is a very defensive-based game, so when a Fox approaches, the opponent will naturally shield or dodge, whether they guess a dair or not.

I would go as far to say that Nair is a much better move than dair MOST of the time. It is a much safer approach, and leads into quite a bit of stuff in its own right. at low %s, you can nair into jab or utilt same as dair...if not lower than dair can...and at higher %s, the weak dair can combo into dsmash and then usmash... similar to dair. you can fade behind a shield with it. it has lasting hitboxes similar to dair, and has a bit more priority and range, imo.

Utilt is the perfect defensive move as it has very good priority, it's very fast, has decent range, beats a LOT of aerials, and can't be shield punished, usually. Used correctly, it will allow you to escape from combos and pressure techniques fairly easily. Also, against shield, the first hit will usually, at least in my play, push them too far away from a grab, or the second utilt will hit their grab attempt. It's VERY safe when you are facing the opposite way as your opponent.

The upper part of Scotu's list isn't bad. I would move bair up as a VERY good walling tactic, and shield pressuring tool. The bair can be autocanceled into a dsmash or turn around usmash to hit a shield grabber quite well... it can kill early, it has good range, and combines with utilt to make a very good defensive/offensive pressure tool. It's not the fastest move he has, but its power, range, and autocancelability are quite nice.

Uair doesn't even approach this level of usefulness. uair only has one use, and that is to attack your opponent as they are above you. If your opponent simply airdodges, it is completely taken out of play... And not only that, but the opponent can SDI out of the first hit of it, and completely avoid the killing threat... : / Therefore, it is VERY situational, and usually a bad idea to use. bair is useful mainly for its use as a pseudo-ground game moreso than for it's aerial uses...although in the air, it is still more useful than an uair.

Shine is Mid or above easily due to its mindgaming nature, and defensive uses... it's a very useful tool.

Also, Jab and rapid A should be separated, as they have two different uses. Jab is around Mid...
Rapid is slightly below it. It's a good damage dealer from dair or nair in the very low %s, where nothing else really combos out of dair. Yes, they can DI out, but you can end it and shield or roll before almost anything they try to pull against you.
*** alone simply keeps your opponent in their shield, leading to another grab. it's a VERY good and safe tactic when you can't really continue a combo against your opponent. It keeps them from grabbing you out of shield... Rapid jab is usually usable to put at least 10%, and up to 30%, depending on placement, on your opponent.

Blaster is not Fox's core game. it's useful, but mid seems to suit it quite well... good move refresher, and reminder that they usually have to approach you, but It's not like GOD...

Fsmash has one use, and that's punishment. I agree that it's pretty low in the list, but not bottom... It has a high, and fairly lasting hitbox, along with deceptively small lag after it. It's not great, but still usable.

Dash attack is also quite useful for a couple purposes... It can punish dodges, and if timed correctly, it can fade behind a shield to utilt. meh. not bottom, but not great.

Dthrow and Fthrow are by far the most useful throws he has... Bthrow and Uthrow are both pretty useless in most cases... both situational...but meh.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah I noticed there is no dash attack in the Original Post. Could you fix it?

 

[cakecontrol]

The jab should be higher up there.

 

[M@v]

Scotu I am just wondering why you think dthrow is so high?

 

[SCOTU]

Because Grab is so high, and dthrow just happens to be the best throw. I figured i'd rate the dthrow as if it were grab.

 

[@CE ftw]

I say d tilt is the worst it like has almost no use

 

[-Mars-]

I'm bored.

TOP:
Up smash
Up tilt
D air
N air

HIGH:
F air
d smash
D throw

MID:
Shine
Up air
b air
illusion
blaster
F tilt
Neutral A

LOW:
fire fox
F throw
Up throw
B Throw

STUPID:
dash attack
D tilt
Rapid A
f smash

I agree with most of this list.

I would move shine and bair up, drop uair, and put jab above ftilt. I actually think fsmash should be above dtilt as well.

 

[JuanTendo]

i'm not a fox player but i believe that uair should be higher.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Personally I believe that the back air deserves to be higher. Other than that I like the list.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Up taunt should be above up smash.

 

[M@v]

added dash attack, and jab. Re arranged the low tiers a little. Ftilt is mid now. Fsmash is low.

 

[-Mars-]

Oh and just to emphasize how good utilts' priority is..........it clashes with G&W's dtilt after some testing I did.