Fox Matchup

[The Truth!]

This is fairly similar to Falco, Ill just say this again:

Keys to this matchup are 1) being able to shut down Fox's camping, 2) not overly relying on the chaingrab, and 3) not getting destroyed against Fox in normal 1 on 1 fighting. Anything short of being destroyed and youll still probably be able to win.

Of course being able to differentiate between when a fox is camping and baiting vs playing without focusing on your grab is essential.

Also the reason over b is mentioned is because lots of fox's will naturally try to camp, so being able to stop that is important.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think this match-up is as "LOL" as people often say. Pikachu's grab range ain't all that and Fox is very very good at avoiding grabs. Fox camps Pikachu well, is very mobile, kills Pikachu early. Definitely Pikachu's advantage though, 6/4 or 6.5/3.5.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

if you know there baiting you, you dont have to grab. personally i think you can fight fox just fine on even footing. considering hes light and we die at like 80 from up smash.

or rather

with out the CG i think its even, and with the CG boosts it in our favor. im either wrong or right shrug

How come he has even footing without the grab. You basically just said why Fox would do good in this match, and yes he may be light but our kill moves are a bit limited with him as well. It's easier said than done with Fox for avoiding the baiting though. If you could would you add more clarity as to why Pikachu can keep up with him? Why is it even without the CG what does Pikachu have to keep himself at par with Fox?

This is fairly similar to Falco, Ill just say this again:

Keys to this matchup are 1) being able to shut down Fox's camping, 2) not overly relying on the chaingrab, and 3) not getting destroyed against Fox in normal 1 on 1 fighting. Anything short of being destroyed and youll still probably be able to win.

Of course being able to differentiate between when a fox is camping and baiting vs playing without focusing on your grab is essential.

Also the reason over b is mentioned is because lots of fox's will naturally try to camp, so being able to stop that is important.

How do you really shutdown his camping is what I don't get. You're basically stuck there, and he doesn't have to stop for any reason whatsoever(Unless there's some weird rule at some tournament making something against that). I understand the whole not relying on grab too much because it can just lead him into some ridiculous combo. I don't really get the 3rd part though because that could really fit any match up.

I don't think this match-up is as "LOL" as people often say. Pikachu's grab range ain't all that and Fox is very very good at avoiding grabs. Fox camps Pikachu well, is very mobile, kills Pikachu early. Definitely Pikachu's advantage though, 6/4 or 6.5/3.5.

Why is it definitely in Pikachu's advantage. The way you described it Pikachu get's obliterated by Fox.

I don't mean to sound like a douche bag or something, i'm just trying to figure out why the match up is the way it is.

 

[The Truth!]

I think I explained the camping thing in the Falco thread, thats basically the same for fox except that you have to worry about his laser for several reasons.

For the third part I mean that if the Falco is significantly greater than you are in skill than youre probably still going to lose. I play an amazing falco regularly and even if I get the chaingrab twice in a match he can still win.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Well yes, but isn't Fox lighter than Falco, and i'm not completely sure but I don't think Fox and Falco get taken to the same damages, and also need different CGs required to get them to those damages. Also the big problem that i've also been trying to see with this match up is how does Pikachu kill Fox since he shuts down a few approaches. I know in this match up you can u-smash him on the last throw, but how do you kill if he doesn't die then? He doesn't let you use thunder, unless you feel like hurting yourself, and his dair can help him get safely to the ground where he can go right back to doing whatever and now you don't have a CG.

 

[Ussi]

Fox is feather weight, Falco is upper light weight, wolf is mid weight...

 

[Roller]

Well yes, but isn't Fox lighter than Falco, and i'm not completely sure but I don't think Fox and Falco get taken to the same damages, and also need different CGs required to get them to those damages.

eh, they both go to 100+%. Difference is Fox is just buffered D-throw. Falco is as well, except his doesn't start until ~19% which you can get to just by Fthrow CGing him twice if you want. Then it is pretty much exactly the same as Fox. So Fox is slightly easier to CG, but it's not a big difference.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Buffered CG to 100%+ then U-smash to Thunder. After that he'll try to be really campy, but one slip up by him = either lose 1-stock or close to losing a stock.

This. Nothing more. I got a fox down to his last stock, (out of 3,) with only taking, less then 10% from his lazors

 

[Ralph Cecil]

That must have been either a bad Fox you went against, or he had no prior knowledge of the CG.

 

[gamesuxcard]

get in close and avoid his ****. you'll get the grab eventually.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

get in close and avoid his ****. you'll get the grab eventually.

He can kill you with a uncharged u-smash at 90%, he can get you caught in a u-tilt lock for a pretty good amount of % that gets you just that much closer to that nice little kill %. He can reflect your t-jolt, you can't gimp a decent Fox with thunder, just because he can also reflect that on you. Also the few kill moves that you have available have to either have to follow up from the CG (Which they should see coming and punish you for it), or don't kill him for quite a while, because he can DI out of them fairly well.

 

[King~]

you know how fox can bait grabs right?

pikachu can bait upsmash lol. almost all of his kill moves are broadcasted, you just gotta not get hit like they gotta not get grabbed

its a battle of playing dangerously imo

 

[Ussi]

not only does shine take 10 extra frames than an AD to come out but thunder is also a true combo dependent on your DI

 

[Ralph Cecil]

you know how fox can bait grabs right?

pikachu can bait upsmash lol. almost all of his kill moves are broadcasted, you just gotta not get hit like they gotta not get grabbed

its a battle of playing dangerously imo

I'll agree Pikachu can bait an u-smash, but if it's a campy Fox (and yes I know the laser don't phase you, but regardless) you'd have a hard time suprising him with that kill move which doesn't have much range to it. It's broadcasted if it's a aggressive Fox, and with this matchup it shouldn't be. He can just camp and wait you out. If you approach a nice hyphen smash could come to your face and if you punish that enough times to make him stop you can still expect him to start baiting your punishment, then just rinse and repeat the cycle I guess if you want.

not only does shine take 10 extra frames than an AD to come out but thunder is also a true combo dependent on your DI

If you're right above a Pikachu you should probably be expecting a thunder, which means it wouldn't be a bad idea just to predict the thunder and cause the Pikachu more damage.

 

[Ussi]

I'm saying utilt/smash > thunder I wouldn't actually try to shine against that cause shine would take 10 frames longer than an AD to come out

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I know and i've been shined and damaged every time i've tried that, and it's a bit predictable what comes next when a Pika knocks you right above them. Most of the time when a Fox or Falco does AD instead of shining me the end up beating themselves up over it knowing they could've made it backfire.

 

[KayLo!]

Lots of times Fox'll be in too much hitstun to shine before thunder comes out. B moves come out significantly later than airdodges and aerials out of hitstun, so if they immediately try to reflect, they'll get hit by thunder first.

The best way for Fox to avoid thunder after utilt/usmash is to DI sideways so that Pika can't simply thunder in place. Even then, Pika can string into it guaranteed with a good read..... but the chances are much less likely since Pika will have to predict where Fox is gonna go and get there quick enough.

Without good DI on utilt/usmash, you're pretty much ****ed at high percentages...... there's just too much hitstun to avoid thunder.

 

[Pikabunz]

Wouldn't using the reflector kill Fox anyways since it boosts him upward during knockback? lol.

One thing I want to add is that air dodging and aerials will always come out on the same frame during hard knockback. Having a higher percent will not delay the air dodge/aerial one bit. I think the higher percent/more hit stun only applies to b moves and jump. Not too sure about the last part.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Lots of times Fox'll be in too much hitstun to shine before thunder comes out. B moves come out significantly later than airdodges and aerials out of hitstun, so if they immediately try to reflect, they'll get hit by thunder first.

The best way for Fox to avoid thunder after utilt/usmash is to DI sideways so that Pika can't simply thunder in place. Even then, Pika can string into it guaranteed with a good read..... but the chances are much less likely since Pika will have to predict where Fox is gonna go and get there quick enough.

Without good DI on utilt/usmash, you're pretty much ****ed at high percentages...... there's just too much hitstun to avoid thunder.

I tested it for myself and Fox can shine thunder right back into your face unless you smash/tilt him at around 80%.

If you hit Fox at around 40% or higher with a u-tilt he shouldn't be able to DI out of it. If you u-smash Fox at about 65% he shouldn't be able to DI.

From what i've seen the stun affects AD, & DI more than just shining.

Also I tried some other things. Fox's dash attack, & d-til, beat Pika's d-tilt. His f-tilit and dash attack also beat our f-tilit. Basically Fox's dash attack beats alot of Pika's ground game. For Pika's f-smash it's dash attack and either a well timed phantasm or just a phantasm period. Pika's d-smash is beaten by f-tilt it doesn't beat it if it's gone on for too long but it can beat his start up, and ending of it.(Also I tested these on FD)

 

[KayLo!]

Uhh, obviously you wouldn't try to utilt/usmash > thunder until high percentage. Anybody who tries to do it ~40-60% is ********, lol.

I was speaking about utilt/usmash > thunder purely as a kill combo, as in well over 100%.

 

[The Truth!]

Fox's dtilt doesnt outrange ours. On top of that he cant crawl. As for dash attack...just dont be dumb. (Its a super risky move for fox vs pika anyways).

 

[KayLo!]

Ralph, I think you might need to brush up on the mechanics of the game a bit. Some of what you're saying simply isn't true.

 

[Katakiri]

I personally don't play "cat & mouse" with Fox. I play "Tom & Jerry." I hide in my mouse hole (crouching) while he tries to bait me out (lasers.) If he doesn't give up within as certain amount of time, I play games with him (crawl slowly closer) until he loses his cool and does something stupid (side-b; which I'm expecting and ready to shield and buffer a dash to grab.) Then, when the house is a wreck, Big Mama comes home and beats him into oblivion with her shoe (the CG.)

And those Japanesque ledge-hopped lasers won't help Fox stop Pika from crouching since he can only fire 1 round of 2 every 2.5 seconds unless he wants to SD. Which is very easy to shield or even just jump over since it's a ledge-hop.

^Years of my old Kirby's gayness paying off for my Pika.

But that gayness aside, everything Fox can do is as telegraphed as G&W's.........yea...everything. Side-B is Fox's only safe option against a crouching Pikachu since from a crouching position you can do any of your offensive or defensive options and, once again, Fox practically yells his next move in Dragonball Z fashion when he jumps or runs forward.

Idk, I've always considered this the "Marth vs Mewtwo" of Brawl. It's not quite as bad as that MU (which is 100-0 Marth's favor. look it up.) but like, as much as I hope the best for Fox, what can Fox really do?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Fox's dtilt doesnt outrange ours. On top of that he cant crawl. As for dash attack...just dont be dumb. (Its a super risky move for fox vs pika anyways).

I didn't say it outranges, I said it beats it. If dash attack beats moves why not try it?

Ralph, I think you might need to brush up on the mechanics of the game a bit. Some of what you're saying simply isn't true.

Would you mind giving me and example?

 

[The Truth!]

i.e. moves dont beat each other on the ground unless they have a 10-11% damage difference, theyll clash. That includes dash attack and dtilt. Its understandable if you have questions, but I agree with kaylos statement. It's normally not an issue if you have questions about how pika and the game works, but if you say something thats incorrect and someone doesnt come in here and correct it, people who come to look for info will get something wrong.

 

[Syko_Lemming]

I didn't say it outranges, I said it beats it. If dash attack beats moves why not try it?

Would you mind giving me and example?

But seriously. Things like suggesting dash attack. Have you ever watched a video with an amazing fox that used dash attack in the manner you're describing? It's just not practical.

 

[M15t3R E]

Fox is more scared of Pikachu than IC's. He's a close-range fighter so he'll have to get up in yo grill at some point. Especially because we can duck the lasers.
When he does... D-throw CG til he ragequits.
End analysis.

 

[Ussi]

If Fox really could damage Pikachu fast and avoid all his **** it would be his advantage. But time and time again... Pikachu gets that grab, Fox gets combo'd hard as it is by Pikachu. Pikachu has A grab setup on Fox (utilt > grab at 0%)