Fox - Guide and Discussion Thread

[Sangoku]

Adding what was mentioned, here's a little summary (in no order).

1) Shine jab to rack up damage and potentially help you get to the upsmash killing percentage (when a jab alone wouldn't suffice I mean).

2) Shine out of shield to escape pressure.

3) Shine to reflect projectiles.

4) Shine to gimp (offensively or defensively, as mixa showed).

5) Shine to stall in the air (either to recover, or as a mindgame when edgeguarding).

6) Shine to something (usmash, aerial if on a platform, etc) to look cool.

7) Shine-> grab on shield (guaranteed if the shine lands on the shield).

8) Shines shieldbreak if you want techskill.

9) Shine to land perfectly on a platform (or from a ledge hop, in theory).

10) Shine if you feel you're going to get grabbed (as mixa showed), after an early aerial on shield for example.

 

[mixa]

I play Falco in Melee so I love the shine

me too. closest thing you can get to the falco shine on the ground → waveland on plat → punish
is first uair hit → jump shine-cancel on the plat → punish

on dream land it works on pika going to the side plat (at all %s because of fixed knockback)
and on puff going to the top plat. of course, with the double jump perfect landing the shine is no longer necessary ):

 

[Chaostatic]

me too. closest thing you can get to the falco shine on the ground → waveland on plat → punish
is first uair hit → jump shine-cancel on the plat → punish

on dream land it works on pika going to the side plat (at all %s because of fixed knockback)
and on puff going to the top plat. of course, with the double jump perfect landing the shine is no longer necessary ):

Fox has a double jump perfect land on DL? Lol what?

 

[mixa]

^

http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-guide-and-discussion-thread.288187/page-25#post-16040256

 

[Chaostatic]

And by perfect landing I just mean when you jump in a way that when you land, you have no landing lag. The most common example in the U version would be Kirby's slanted C-jump from the ground to DL's sideplat.

Falcon doesn't have one ):

But Fox does! The jp Fox who won the jp online tournament used it a lot. J-SNAKE.

Wait, why do some characters have lag after their jumps and others don't? What the hell is going on?

 

[mixa]

it's not about characters, it's about the landing. if you barely surpass a surface, you'll have no landing lag. all characters can do this.
but for most characters, a very weird combination of double jumps would be necessary in order to achieve that perfect landing.

in other words, 'fox has a perfect landing on DL' really means 'fox has a simple/feasible combination of jumps which yield a perfect landing on DL'

my kirby comparison is off, btw. i don't remember why i used that instead of dk lol

 

[Chaostatic]

what the hell lol

i learn new stuff about this game everyday

Can you z cancel the landing lag of a jump? Do z cancels take away ALL the lag of an arial attack? If so, and you can't z cancel the landing lag of a jump, does that mean that doing an arial attack and z canceling it is actually faster than simply jumping up and down??

Edit: i bet the answers to these questions could probably be found in Sangoku's technical frame data thread, i'm such a bum

 

[mixa]

z cancel does not cancel the landing lag, otherwise 'perfect landing' wouldn't make much sense, wouldn't you agree

yeah you could read the good threads. you could also frame advance, i mean, it's very simple to figure out that kinda stuff.

Just had an idea: we could easily find the timing of various things and make a video with something beating at that specific rhythm, maybe it could help? I was thinking of SHDL, teleport usmash, shine jab, that kind of things. Tell me if you guys think it might be useful.

hey sangoku is it true that the CPR rhythm is the same as the song 'staying alive'?

 

[Chaostatic]

dammit i've been telling myself to hook up this mupen frame advance thing for weeks

am i going to be able to play in hit box mode??????

 

[mixa]

am i going to be able to play in hit box mode??????

with mupen and madao's table the sky is the limit

 

[Chaostatic]

omg i'm so excited

 

[M!nt]

dammit i've been telling myself to hook up this mupen frame advance thing for weeks

am i going to be able to play in hit box mode??????

wait what?? You can already play in hitbox mode with pj64 and gameshark.

From madaos thread

Hitbox Display (crashes in fighting polygon team loading screen)
810F2C04 2400

Projectile Hitbox
81167578 2400

Red Hitbox (requires Hitbox mode to be on)
810F33BC 2400

Purple Hurtbox
810F2FD0 2400

Red Projectile (requires Projectile hitbox code to be on)
81166F34 2400

Unless you're talking about something else.

 

[rjgbadger]

If you play online I'll play with you and can show you a myriad of uses in which shine is available. Actually now that I'm back from tour/vacation, I'll start work on my videos again. I've a few movement-guide clips in the works but never dedicated :\

 

[Chaostatic]

Guys... Oh my god.

I just set up this hitbox mode thing and it is literally the coolest thing I've ever seen in my entire life.

It even shows the green and blue invincibility hurt boxes. I'm going to learn so much like this. This is so amazing. I can't wait.

 

[Chaostatic]

Things I've learned so far:

All grabs get invincibility frames
You get invincibility after hitting a wall or DIing a ledge

Fox's up tilt is huge
Fox's head is invincible during up smash
Fox's bottom is invincible during down smash
Yoshi is invincible during like all of his "head" attacks ahaha
Yoshi's hurt box doesn't change color during super armor
Ness' head is invincible during up tilt
Ness' hit boxes are tiny lol
Pika's Forward air is huge
Pika can plank the ledge with up b and be invincible like 90% of the time lol
DK is invincible during the beginning of his up b
DK's head is invincible during his up smash
Puff's bottom is invincible during down smash
Puff's up b hit box isn't constant, it flashes
Puff's up tilt is AMAZING it's so big and fast
Puff gets maddddd invincibility frames during rest
Mario's/Luigi's head is invincible during up smash
Luigi is NOT invincible during down b
Kirby's up tilt is absolutely ridiculous
Kirby's bottom is invincible during down smash
Samus' up b is hella weird
Samus gets mad invincibility frames during down b
Samus' up air is really big
Samus' forward is similar to Puff's up B, it flashes
Falcon's forward air is huge
Falcon's up b hit box is smaller than one would think
Despite Link being able to double down air, the hit box goes away??? idk


Guys, this is so ****ing awesome.

EDIT: My bad for double posting, I'm just really excited lol.

 

[Cobrevolution]

All grabs get invincibility frames

what? last i checked at http://www.ssb64.com/hitbox there were 0 grabs that got invincibility frames

and samus's downb is deceptive. i remember thinking it had all these invincibility frames but i've experienced it as, her body morphs into a ball and is thus invulnerable, but because her appendages are anchored to her vulnerable hurtbox, she isn't actually invincible

 

[mixa]

imagine if we could somehow capture all this frame data info from the hitboxes

what if we could do it frame by frame. you'd see everything!!

hoho

and then we could make sort of a library with that

like

every smasher could browse all the moves in the game with utmost detail

all of this free of charge!!!!


damn

 

[The Star King]

what? last i checked at http://www.ssb64.com/hitbox there were 0 grabs that got invincibility frames

I'm guessing he meant throws.

 

[Sangoku]

I'm happy @ Chaostatic is having fun discovering hitboxes, but we're getting really offtrack here. And don't forget Framedisplay has everything lol.

Oh and mixa, yeah staying alive has almost the same BPM as what we want for CPR, and since it's a catchy song with a name fitting, we like mentioning it.

 

[Mr Bushido]

@ mixa should make gifs with 8:23 and 14:39 to demonstrate the usefulness of Fox's perfect land and laser's potential to increase combo opportunities respectively

 

[mixa]

double jump weak nair → u-smash: http://gfycat.com/HelpfulDesertedHare I figure single-hit-uair → u-smash is possible too (style pointz)

shield drop laser → shine: http://gfycat.com/AmusingAppropriateBeardeddragon (nice tech-chase)


——————————————————————————————————

And I'm gonna go ahead and say some things about some moments in the match because I feel like discussing smash brus.


I like those retreating sh laser → u-smash, (5:45) though it's probably hard to hit-confirm the laser, so you kinda have to throw the u-smash anyway instead of an f-tilt or something (14:48)

At 9:20, not sure if that was smart DI or if blue Fox was already at that stage position in which simple inward DI gives ledge DI.

Zig-zag with the Z

Drill shine offstage - I wonder if blue could've come back from that.

Coming back to the laser shine combo, it's good that blue Fox didn't ledge DI the d-tilt. At that % the usual ledge DI is easier to punish, but with no ledge DI blue Fox went higher and orange Fox couldn't do much.
It's not rare that a Fox will edgeguard, say, Mario, with the d-tilt, and then not be able to punish because the attack sent Mario too high (though not high enough to kill). I've noticed this doesn't really happen in the J version. The weaker d-tilt is really good: ledge DI or not, the Fox edgeguarder can keep on going.

At 14:10 (applicable vs Fox and Mario, mainly), orange Fox should DI up and away from the edge, as to try to avoid hitting the stage altogether.

Regarding the gimpfest, like in Sheik dittos when the players agree not to chaingrab each other, maybe in Fox dittos on DL players could agree not to shine offstage. Or at least, not to shine anything else other than the moving up-B from the other Fox (you must interrupt the up-B). I usually play with this rule myself because I find it fun to have to time the shine or find other ways to edgeguard.

 

[Mr Bushido]

Thanks for the .gifs mee-shuh. I didn't really pay attention to the zigzagin with the z until you gif'd it. It's actually pretty cool. IMO the horizontal juggling meta is really backwards in this game. The physics allow you to do it with most chars, shame it's so unpopular.

 

[Sangoku]

I learned something the other day: if Fox Up B's without using his second jump, he can be hit anytime during the loading animation and his second jump will remain. It's similar to Kirby's Up B (more leniency for the latter though).

 

[mixa]

S uploaded a shine combo on nicovideo (alternative link)
It's the first legit waveshine I see.

I couldn't get the combo meter to 6. ):



I went to eat something, came back, sat down, tried it, and got it first try.
Ofc, it wasn't recording. ;-;
Originally I wanted to copy that combo to get it with sound.

 

[rjgbadger]

S uploaded a shine combo on nicovideo (alternative link)
It's the first legit waveshine I see.

I couldn't get the combo meter to 6. ):



I went to eat something, came back, sat down, tried it, and got it first try.
Ofc, it wasn't recording. ;-;
Originally I wanted to copy that combo to get it with sound.

YOU CAN DO MORE THAN ONE?

I learned something the other day: if Fox Up B's without using his second jump, he can be hit anytime during the loading animation and his second jump will remain. It's similar to Kirby's Up B (more leniency for the latter though).

You won't believe how many times I've tricked scrubby pikas into hitting my UpB while still having my jump, so they run off nair/uair and I end up jumping and upB-ing to safety

 

[mixa]

Yeah: https://mediacru.sh/bE3hhULc7kyW but Samus didn't up-B.

I don't know why, but in J this seems a lot easier.




edit: Someone make the beginning of this combo pls.

 

[Han Solo]

It's easier to do utilt ->shineland -> upsmash. The timing is more lenient, and it's still cool as balls.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

It's easier to do utilt ->shineland -> upsmash. The timing is more lenient, and it's still cool as balls.

Welcome back, Brolo.

 

[mixa]

It's easier to do utilt ->shineland -> upsmash.

it's easier to play kirby. but we're not doing that are we

 

[Han Solo]

No one is ever going to play this game and do some of the things you've shown Fox can do with 100% consistency. I did that combo, but it took about 10 minutes of trying. There's no way I'm going to attempt it in a competitive match unless I can see frames like M2K.

 

[mixa]

yeah i agree with you let's be pals etc

 

[Han Solo]

no i h8 u pls die

 

[mixa]

i'll comply only bcuz u said pls

 

[mixa]

Kero, I am not good at egdeguarding Falcons at low %s so I was hoping you'd teach me through your tournament play, but you missed a bunch too.

How are you gonna be the guardian of us all if you keep doing that.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Kero, I am not good at egdeguarding Falcons at low %s so I was hoping you'd teach me through your tournament play, but you missed a bunch too.

How are you gonna be the guardian of us all if you keep doing that.

stranded's falcon is too damn hard to edge guard

i was hoping players like you would give me advice on how to improve lol

 

[Cobrevolution]

dtilt shine ledgehog or is that too simple

 

[mixa]

The way I see it, if players have problems being consistent at it, it's never simple, especially considering it doesn't rely on tech skill that much. We're messing up our choices most of the time. And while Fox can be a TRICKSTER with his recovery, Falcon rarely is. It's more like his up-B is dumb.

D-tilt has problems: https://mediacru.sh/5s6mnKGSN9pG - not much you can do here. Falcon was at that % where a r-Ledge DI is super good. I guess it feels easy because in retrospect, with Falcon being at 40%, Fox could've just d-smashed, and even with a (normal) ledge DI there would be enough time to attack again (I just tested this one).

Another DI instance: http://i.gyazo.com/c78313f8757c13584615546f31ee8979.mp4 (featuring are favorite Fox hero)

D-tilt → shine → edgehog is ehhh. For instance, I don't agree with this shine: https://mediacru.sh/PV1-B4GK8zT1 - as far as I can tell, there is no safe ending to that scenario after the shine. If Fox tried to attack like in the video, hugs could happen; if Fox tried a ledgehog, hugs would definitely happen; and if he tried landing on the stage, there wouldn't be enough time to attack again. Again, in retrospect he could've not d-tilt'd and instead grabbed, shine-canceled, stuff. But sticking with the d-tilt, I like the run offstage jump nair back onto the stage. If Falcon were higher in %, Fair → shine would connect.

I think shines are better when you'll land back on stage: https://mediacru.sh/v7Djpe7lfXkR | https://mediacru.sh/FO4p603BXIWt - unless you're doing the dropzone shine ofc.

 

[rjgbadger]

~most~ of the time when people reverse ledge DI like that, they tech into the stage. The first clip you showed, fox failed the edgeguard by doing a standing shine. Even if you don't predict the inwards tech, on console it should be pretty easily followed with a grab or usmash/dsmash/whatever.

in the third clip(The one where fox got hugged) He should have shined, then double jumped and shined back on stage, ready for a jab/dtilt/dsmash/ftilt/whatever. No use in trying to hit falcon at risk of hug-zone. Also as mixa pointed out you can shine up high and still land on stage with a pretty high level of safety

 

[Han Solo]

Kero's Fox is bad, and you shouldn't watch it to learn things. After that shine, Falcon looked like he was dead so he should have just double jumped back on stage. If he wanted to be sure, he could've jumped straight up and fast-falled to grab the ledge while Falcon was in that hitbox-isn-t-out-but-falcon-can't-grab-ledge timeframe.

 

[SilentShottt]

I'd like anything and everything you guys care to offer about winning the neutral game vs pika as fox