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Fox - Guide and Discussion Thread

rjgbadger

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shine is crazy good for exactly reasons like that kabutox

another GREAT use i've gotten out of shine is using it to turn around in a full dash, like a pseudo-pivot out of full dash without doing that dash-turnaround thing. full dash-shine pivot-bair is nice situationally, as is using it to stop and bait the reaction, similar to the use you described.

also another shine thing i just started to do, that i don't see a lot of other fox's online do is shine-grab on shield. i like to pressure a shield with a single jab, then dash pivot into the shine-grab. often times they are still shielding trying to figure out what you're doing, so it generally works in my experience.
 

Sangoku

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also another shine thing i just started to do, that i don't see a lot of other fox's online do is shine-grab on shield. i like to pressure a shield with a single jab, then dash pivot into the shine-grab. often times they are still shielding trying to figure out what you're doing, so it generally works in my experience.
I've been doing that too. And I've also said on these boards that it was a guaranteed grab.
 

rjgbadger

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i knew the shine grab was guaranteed, i meant i didn't believe the jab1-dash shine pivot was guaranteed(it might be but it just looks and sounds like it isn't, but i've had it work before several times online)
 

mixa

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I think shine grab is something that everyone has thought about, even if you don't Melee much. but I personally can't resist the urge to shine again.
 

rjgbadger

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I think shine grab is something that everyone has thought about, even if you don't Melee much. but I personally can't resist the urge to shine again.
i will almost always keep shining a shield unless it is a super-serious/tournament setting

i can never break i always get to excited and **** up the timing
 

Barbs Jr

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i will almost always keep shining a shield unless it is a super-serious/tournament setting

i can never break i always get to excited and **** up the timing
Anyone have tips for practicing this?

I'm getting better at perfect / close to perfect shines but I always lose it after 4 or 5, and I rarely land a shine on shield in the first place (usually aerial -> grab).
 

clubbadubba

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lvl 9 cpu, stand in front of them so that they roll behind you, let them get their shield up and begin shining. If you mess up they'll break out.
 

clubbadubba

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Hey you, yea you, little boy, pick up sticks *****, I'ma break yo mother ****in shield
 

mixa

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Beware when practicing shield breaks with CPs. They leave their shield on more than players. For example, I know that sh hop double dair works with Ness on a shielded CP, but it never works against peeps.

What I've tried to do is: I shield with player 2 with a key close to the ones I use, and go from there. Though I guess even in this method is not great. I think letting the shield drop is slower than jumping OoS.

But yeah save state CP rolling is pretty good.
 

Sangoku

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Play against GDK (or DK if console) controlled by nobody with handicap and 50% damage. Then simply shine them (since hitlag=shieldlag). This is only a training for multishining, but once you know how slow you can be, it shouldn't be a problem.
 

Sangoku

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1) I don't know what you mean, I thought you were trying to break a shield.

2) I just meant that you didn't need to train to be fast, you only need to train to chain them consistantly. And I have a few doubt concerning your "friend mashing up" method, since I don't think he will input up at the precise timing needed to escape faster than releasing the shield button.
 

Sedda

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What should I do when I'm forced to tech roll after I get hit (particularly nearby a wall)? I get grabbed too often after doing it ESPECIALLY by the faster characters, and if I don't I eat a down smash or something like that. Sometimes I feel like jabs come out too slow and shines too fast, so they catch me anyway, or maybe MY jabs are slow. Any tips?
 

clubbadubba

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Against a perfect tech chase, in lots of situations you're at the mercy of your opponent messing up. If its possible to roll away from your opponent so that they cannot possibly get to you, that's obviously your best bet. If that's not possible (and it rarely is), I think teching in place is more often than not the best option. It is much faster than rolling so it puts more pressure on them to think quickly and you have a better chance of getting away.

You should also think about the situation. If you roll right, what options does he have? For example, say you are teching on the left side of hyrule vs falcon. A common tech chase for falcon is to grab. If you are at high percent, you might want to end up between falcon and the edge, since a grab at that position gives you a better chance to recover than if he were to back throw you off the stage.

I'm no expert on fox so I can't attest to actual move selection, but remember that jumping (and doing a quick aerial) is always an option as well.
 

Han Solo

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Techrolls and teching-in-place in this game aren't good for Fox or really anyone. A smart player will just react to your techroll, and if they're character is fast enough, you won't be able to do anything. Having said that, it's still possible to escape in certain situations. In the following scenarios, assume it's a nice flat level like DL or middle of Hyrule unless I specifically say otherwise.

-IMO it's almost always better to second-jump out (if you can) than doing a tech roll. Doing this means you won't get grabbed, but this doesn't happen often. This happens to floatier characters a lot.

-Against slower characters, you should almost always tech away from them so they can't grab you. Works well against Puff, DK, Ness. Kirby too sometimes.

-If you're playing a good Ness, and they're trapping you with dair on the side platforms of DL, you need to hard left or right DI so you go past the platform onto the bottom level of the stage. Techrolling on the side platforms means death for Fox.

-Characters like Pika, Falcon, and Fox are fast enough to run you down. If they hit you/throw you away, and you see them sprint towards you, you have three options:
  • Tech away, and hope beyond hope that you're far enough away that you can get a jab out before they grab you. This works ok against Pikachu, and jab can lead into an upsmash (or jab-shine-jab like me), Falcon will grab you 95%. Fox will most likely grab you, or laser you then grab you.
  • Tech in place and jab/shine. This isn't really a good option when your opponent isn't near you. It's just less ground that they have to cover. I'll talk about this later.
  • Tech towards them. This works pretty well if they're sprinting towards you because it's hard for them to stop sprinting and punish your tech in the time it takes you to get up. I can't prove this, but I feel like people are naturally inclined to tech the same way they're thrown which is why I see Falcons always trying to run down their opponent.
-Teching in place is usually good when your opponent is on top of you, and you're facing them when you get up from the tech. You can usually just jab them before they do anything. I'll do this against Ness a lot when Ness is spamming dair and you're just low enough that you don't bounce up in the air.

-So, now to your question about techrolling near walls (and it applies to ledges too). Don't do it. If you're right next to the wall, tech in place or tech away. You'll probably get punished either way, but teching towards the wall is just...so free to punish. You'll feel stupid for just rolling in a ball not going anywhere while you're opponent laughs at you quietly thinking to himself that you're a scrub who techrolls into walls.

-In the rarest occasions, you can even not tech at all. Fox's getup attack isn't terrible unless it's on shield (but that's everyone's getup attack). Or you can roll away and get away sometimes. This isn't Fox, but it's the same idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJEPllJpbrA&feature=player_detailpage#t=703s
You can see Boom was totally prepared to run him down, and he ran past Isai just a little bit. When he saw the no-tech, he jumped backwards. Seeing this, Isai rolled away from Boom leading to a jab. Isai got punished after that, but that was his fault not Mario's.

There isn't ONE good way to techroll for every scenario. 80% of the time you're going to get punished no matter what. In that remaining 20%, 15% of the time you chose the wrong way to get out of the situation and you're getting punished.

Lastly, it's important to remember that when you techroll, it's because you made a mistake and you got hit. If you can figure out why you got hit, and avoid that, then there's no need to techroll. So, don't get hit.
 

The Star King

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-IMO it's almost always better to second-jump out (if you can) than doing a tech roll. Doing this means you won't get grabbed, but this doesn't happen often. This happens to floatier characters a lot.
Not the only two options. You can do an aerial to cancel your tumble animation, so you can fall without needing to tech. Sometimes jumping is a bad idea. But yeah either way you shouldn't tech if you can avoid it.
 

Sangoku

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I would add that crouching and running through SHDL is bad against good Fox. Fox's low laser (including the second one from SHDL) should hit a running/crouching Falcon.
 

rjgbadger

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1) I don't know what you mean, I thought you were trying to break a shield.

2) I just meant that you didn't need to train to be fast, you only need to train to chain them consistantly. And I have a few doubt concerning your "friend mashing up" method, since I don't think he will input up at the precise timing needed to escape faster than releasing the shield button.
1. the slow shines, while effective, aren't very awesome compared to how quickly you can shine to shieldbreak

2. i get them to go overhand with their fingers, and mash c buttons really fast in an alternating fashion(like pressing jkjkjkjkjkjk really fast, or lijlijlijlijlij really fast) just to be super obvious in where i screwed my shine up. it doesn't really matter so long as i have someone to shield for me, its pretty obvious when you do a bad shine on shield
 

mixa

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I've recorded a few Fox-only moves for Frame Display:

• Shine cancel; shine cancel hitting a shield; shine cancel hitting a character​
• Running short hop double laser​
Frame Display is 'basically a program that allows you to view each character's attacks frame by frame with the hitboxes superimposed (in a continuous fashion from all hitbox to all normal.' (Sangoku's articulate description, and thread). If you wanna see what's like, watch this demo video by the those who made it.

[collapse=here's a snippet (nevermind the gif's bad quality)]
[/collapse]

The program is light, but it also comes with 1GB worth of pictures, and this might make people refrain from trying it.
Since I think it's a really cool tool, I decided to delete everything but the software itself and those Fox moves so more people can see it, and if you think it's cool, get the whole thing in the aforementioned thread.



So here it is, less than 15MB: download link



You don't have to install anything. Here's all you need to know to use it:
[collapse=instructions]Click SSB Framedisplay Pro
On that list, click on the 10th name - which is Fox.
Select a move
Use the keys A and D to frame advance, and W and S to vary hitbox visibility.
Use the key Start to pause/resume the replay of the move.[/collapse]



I'm looking to do more moves like this. Don't know what else I can do with Fox.
 

Han Solo

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mixa, I...I think I love you more than Sangoku.

Seeing as how you can make the opponent shield, can you make them do any other things like shield-grab? I have a TON of things I'd love to see.

Here's a list of everything I can think of:

  • you're grabbing the ledge, shoot two lasers, and regrab the ledge all without touching the stage (I have never been able to do this in game)
  • On DL from the top platform, do this technique https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5EfeCsLyaI&feature=player_detailpage#t=379 (fastfall turn around laser basically)
  • Similar to the above except do a platform drop fastfall laser
  • one jab on shield against pika. which frame can they shield-grab
  • one jab on shield against pika. which frame can they roll away
  • one jab on shield against pika. which frame can they jump out
  • one jab on shield against pika. then attempt a pivot-jab behind pika while pika tries to shield-grab
  • same as above three except for two jabs on shield. And after doing the second jab, attempt another jab (not flurry). I know if you do it as fast as possible, two jabs is safe. I just want to see how many frames after the second jab Fox is vulnerable.
  • same as above except for one and two ftilts
  • same as above except for one and two dtilts
  • hey might as well throw utilt in there
  • I'd also like to see the above done against falcon's upsmash out of shield and DK's up-b out of shield
  • Doing a shorthop dair against a yoshi doing a parry upsmash (parry the first hit)
  • Doing a shorthop dair into a grab against a pika attempting to shield grab. I'm convinced pika will be able to shield-grab every time.
 

Sangoku

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mixa, I...I think I love you more than Sangoku.
Wat. We've all spent hours working on that framedisplay program while nobody cared and mixa gets all the LUV? FINE

More seriously though, what do you want exactly with that list? You want these moves to be recorded in FD? That won't help you with timing nor will it tell you the frame window for inputs though, which I believe is more what you need.
 

Han Solo

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You know I'm jk, Sangoku. I'll always love you the most.

If I could see what happens in the perfect scenario, e.g. frame perfect jabs (attempting the third jab instead of a flurry as fast as possible), pika shield-grabbing on the first frame, that would be more than enough. I reckon Fox is going to come out on the bad end of most of these scenarios, but I want proof instead of just "jab is good on shield sometimes".
 

mixa

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mixa, I...I think I love you more than Sangoku.
You're just confused by all the light. We all love Sangoku more.




And now to the Fox discussion.

I did some new moves for the FD: Fox update 1


Disclaimer: I'm not 100% of what I'm saying.​

you're grabbing the ledge, shoot two lasers, and regrab the ledge all without touching the stage (I have never been able to do this in game)
This is really hard because you need too many perfect inputs (away; up/C; B; B), and there is only one loose frame -- it's a 4 input sequence that's 1 frame close to being frame perfect. You can see the this loose frame because I'm able to fastfall (7-point star) one frame before grabbing the ledge.



On DL from the top platform, do this technique https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5EfeCsLyaI&feature=player_detailpage&t=379 (fastfall turn around laser basically)
Similar to the above except do a platform drop fastfall laser
I didn't record the plat drop one since it's the same thing as the other one, with the difference that it's harder if you shield drop: If you shield drop, it's frame perfect; if you normal drop, 1 loose frame.



• one jab on shield against pika. which frame can they shield-grab
• one jab on shield against pika. which frame can they roll away
• one jab on shield against pika. which frame can they jump out
• one jab on shield against pika. then attempt a pivot-jab behind pika while pika tries to shield-grab
The answer to 'which frame' is the same for all: after the lag ends. And I made a table for comparing the scenarios: Fox one jab vs Pika - I hope it's not confusing. I had also made one for shine cancel

Table assumes a fresh jab, and that frame 1 is when the jab hits the shield.

Pika will be free to input anything out-of-shield on frame 15.

Fox will be free to input on frame 19.
- If Fox inputs jab anytime before frame 33, jab 2 will come out. You must wait until frame 33 to get another jab 1.​
You cannot pivot behind Pika, because as you can see, the run animation would start after the frame delay, one frame before getting caught -- I did test having them extremely close to each other, and Fox gets grabbed all the same.

I ignored jab 2 from the scenarios. You either input jab 1 at f. 33, or anything else at frame 19.
I picked shine because it's the fastest thing Fox has (faster than Pika's shieldgrab). That is also the example that was recorded.



Later I'll test what's left from your list and the jab 2 stuff.
 

The Star King

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This is a human vs human game. Even if something *can* be punished, if nobody takes advantage of that fact it can still be effective, though perhaps its effectiveness is subject to change. It depends on what your opponent does.

Not necessarily saying jab is good on shield. I'm just pointing out you gotta take advantage of your opponents' flaws.

JUST SAYING
 

The Star King

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The SK damage control is glorious.
I have to admit I laffed and you're probably kinda right. I still am sticking to what I said, though, because in my experience jab goes unpunished most of the time, and you happen to play someone who actually punishes you should... stop.
 

Han Solo

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Star King: "Luigi's taunt is good on shield."
Han Solo: "No it's not. Here's frame data that shows it's bad, but it seems pretty obvious anyways."
Star King: "This is a human vs human game. Even if something *can* be punished, if nobody takes advantage of that fact it can still be effective..."

Obviously, that example is a little extreme, but what you said can be applied to any move. You *can* do jab on shield, and your opponent *can* choose not to punish, but that doesn't make jab on shield a safe move. Safer than Luigi's taunt? Sure. As safe as Kirby's utilt? Nowhere close.
 

mixa

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I'm not disagreeing with SK, but if we just get a little more precise on the statement, things will clear out.

1. Jab is bad on shield when in close range. Since jab has more range than Pika's shieldgrab, Fox will be safe if well spaced.

1.5 Jab is bad on shield when in close range and when Pika is facing you. We can see Malva jabbing Kefit's shielded back several times here (oh wait there's no link because they deleted the stream)

2. When Han Solo says on commentary that jab on shield is bad, if I recall correctly, it's after some Fox does like 5 consecutives jabs on shield thinking that, eventually, he'll win¹. This mentality exists, and it's simply a bad habit. So even if your opponent is dumb, you shouldn't do it.

And by shouldn't I of course mean if you're serious and are looking for the best option. Several Fox players do whatever they want (which is fun to do) and there nothing wrong with that. You might not get out of pools, but who cares. Fox is free bruh.

¹ this is what the tier list is for. if in doubt, don't engage in a frame war against a character who's higher than you.


edit: I'm still gonna finish that and whatever else comes up.
 

Sangoku

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Agree with mixa. This is what I showed a while back: close range jab is bad (gets beaten by everything, even OoS aerials), but spaced jab is good (ie not directly punishable).
 

The Star King

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Star King: "Luigi's taunt is good on shield."
Han Solo: "No it's not. Here's frame data that shows it's bad, but it seems pretty obvious anyways."
Star King: "This is a human vs human game. Even if something *can* be punished, if nobody takes advantage of that fact it can still be effective..."

Obviously, that example is a little extreme, but what you said can be applied to any move. You *can* do jab on shield, and your opponent *can* choose not to punish, but that doesn't make jab on shield a safe move. Safer than Luigi's taunt? Sure. As safe as Kirby's utilt? Nowhere close.
I don't understand the point this post is trying to make.

IF, hypothetically, nobody punishes Luigi's taunt on shield, then yeah it is safe on shield in practice. (That wouldn't save it from being bad, because it's hard to land, you would gain very little from landing it, and there isn't really a reason to use it over other moves, but none of those are your main argument for Fox jab being bad on shield ("it's punishable") so that's beside the point).

No, what I said cannot be applied to any move, because if you do something like a Luigi taunt on peoples' shields you will probably get punished pretty much every time. I'm pointing out you will rarely get punished for a Fox jab.

Obviously the hypothetical here isn't true. Everybody will pwn you for trying to use Luigi's taunt, so it is bad both in theory and in practice. But in my experience, this is not the case with Fox's jab
 

Han Solo

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You *can* do X on shield, and your opponent *can* choose not to punish, but that doesn't make X on shield a safe move. Just because in your experience you rarely get punished for using Fox's jab on shield doesn't make jab safe on shield. All that means is whoever you were playing didn't punish you. Jab on shield is a risk. The frame data says that (if I'm reading it right) pika has a 4 frame advantage to do what he wants while Fox is still in hitlag. This is different than moves like frame-perfect shine cancel, second hit uair, bair, and fair where Fox comes out of hitlag before the opponent comes out of hitstun. Those moves are safe on shield. Jab is not.
 

Cobrevolution

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so if a fox is jabbing my shield when i'm falcon, should i just be mashing a? seems like i always get caught in the middle and get jabbed or dtilted anyway.
 
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