Fox and Stages

[Omega_Knight]

Is there any solid information for the stages that Fox is good/bad on? Personally, I do really well on battlefield because of the under-the-platform pressure Fox can apply and Halberd seems to really help Fox with that single long platform in the middle. Duck Hunt I feel sucks for Fox because of the more narrow blast zones and Delfino works if you are not playing against a Diddy. Also, I try to avoid BF and DH against Villager because of that dam bowling ball from platform drops. I think Fox can do really well on Lylat because of the three level platforms as long as you master recovering on the stage when the map tilts. Thing is, it is almost always banned.

What other stage advantages have you guys noticed? Any stages/matchups I should always avoid?

 

[tru.]

I think pretty much everything you stated above seems accurate, and you covered the majority of the stages you should consider while using Fox. Basically, like you said, stick with platform-present levels to apply pressure. Even on Omega stages, Fox can handle a variety of opponents due to his quick but strong attacks, good recovery, and great aerials. Not to mention, but his neutral-special can drive opponents insane on Omega stages, due to the fact that there are no platforms to hang out on to avoid the attack. Fox is an all-around good character, so you shouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[Timbers]

It's pretty character dependent I think. Battlefield is probably overall his most solid stage, but it's definitely not a stage I'd take like..ZSS, Diddy, etc. to if I can help it. Halberd is also a decent stage for Fox, but again would not be a place I'd take characters that can abuse the floating stage's layout or low ceiling even moreso than Fox. Same breath, Duck Hunt could potentially be a good pick for Fox. Not a solid stage for him, but he does have reliable options in jab cancels to dsmash or bairs...if the opponent has trouble killing from the sides then I think it's an okay pick.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Battlefield is Fox's best stage because of the pressure you mentioned he can apply with platforms present. He's got the fastest vertical mobility, letting Fox jump through them with any of his aerials and apply pressure like this. It's always a solid pick unless I'm fighting Zero Suit Samus, as I feel she can use the platforms to her advantage better.

I like Halberd unless I'm vs Little Mac. The low ceiling lets Fox net earlier KOs and he can use the dip to avoid linear projectiles and attacks.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Duck hunt is both good and bad, having all that room to maneuver and run away if need be helps in a lot of matchups, and the tree on the side can give you another recovery option (and gives you good juggle strings if you catch the opponent above you on the tree)

Town and city to me feels like a pretty good fox stage, I'm not entirely sure but I think the ceiling is lower than average there which is great for fox, and you can use the platforms better than a lot of characters.

I agree with what timbers said about it being match-up dependent, I feel there is less of a 'best stage for fox always pick it' and it comes more to what stage works for you against X character.

 

[Omega_Knight]

Yea I guess what I wanted to ask was are there any noticeable matchups where you should definitely avoid this particular stage? Im just trying to build a comprehensive list and any anecdotal advice from other Fox mains would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Timbers]

Yea I guess what I wanted to ask was are there any noticeable matchups where you should definitely avoid this particular stage? Im just trying to build a comprehensive list and any anecdotal advice from other Fox mains would be greatly appreciated.

I don't think there's an instance where Fox definitely suffers from a neutral stage choice. Town & City/SV/Battlefield/FD can all work well for him. Definitely do not take Diddy/ZSS to Halberd, and probably not MK either. As far as Delfino/Castle Siege...I try to avoid these stages. Fox has no gimmicks lol, and your opponent will usually pick these stages because they have some dumb low % uair/throw kill, or spike, etc etc. there. I'd prioritize banning Delfino over Halberd against Diddy, Ness, or ZSS, but this is where you just have to do some digging and see which stage your opponent prefers. Duck Hunt can be alright if you're playing against one of the few characters who have a hard time killing off the side. Definitely don't take characters with strong back throws here (Ness/TL/Sonic/etc.)

 

[Skarfelt]

Fox is good on pretty much every stage besides Castle Siege and Duck Hunt. Personally, you should be aiming to go Battlefield nearly every game against everybody but ZSS, Rosalina and so on. Town and City is an equally awesome stage for Fox, though, so I'd say Town and City is your best bet if you're not too familiar with the matchup. Ceiling is smaller (as far as I know) and the platforms let you abuse your mobility well. Honestly, Fox is definitely a character who doesn't need to care too much about stage choice. It's very hard to counterpick him stage-wise so I wouldn't be too concerned on this front.

 

[DtJ S2n]

Have to agree with Battlefield as the #1 choice but we're so versatile a character it'd be criminal to not try and pick a stage maximizing the opponent's weakness more than our strengths. I also particularly like Smashville, more so than with other characters. The moving platform matches up with our jump heights really well for easy landing on it and is high enough to really get up there and threaten easy u-air kills. It also can help in making our recovery less predictable, which is always nice.

Castle Siege is definitely the one stage in particular to avoid if you can.

 

[SnowballBob33]

Lylat = worst. The ledge is bad for alot of recoveries that aren't villager,olimar etc. Linear recoveries are simply at a disadvantage. Omega lylat is an amazing counterpick against fox simply because of the ledge, chances are you'll mess up the recovery. Lylat also tilts and causes lasers to miss. Ban worthy.

This will probably be an unpopular opinion but I'd avoid smashville as well. Offensively, Fox can apply alot of ledge pressure and smashville grants people free passes back to the middle of the map. Typically cornering someone by the ledge and forcing them to roll/hold their shield and get grabbed/ spotdodge etc. is ideal. Smashville though has a moving platfrom to safely transport people across the map.There is no option (like a command grab for example) that can beat someone holding their shield on the platform. It also allows characters like samus, shiek, lucario etc. to safely charge projectiles while essentially leaving the map. When the platform moves farthest to the sides, there risk/reward is terrible for fox. He has no kill throws like falcon/sonic/ness etc., and tilts wont kill. Being as light as fox is, its easy to die messing around out there. One whiffed smash attack and your potentially dead at 30%. Thats not to say the stage is bad, it isn't worth banning, but you may want to strike it to force BF/FD/Town.

FD is great. Plenty of space to run around and be fast. The opponent's only option of landing is on the ground or ledge which is easy to punish.

Battlefield is amazing due to follow up possibilities, but more importantly you're less likely to get harassed. Once off the map you have the option to illusion to various platforms to make an escape. Fox's aerial illusion has little to no landing lag and is difficult for slower characters to punish.

Town and City is also great. It turns into FD half of the time. Fox also has a very high jump,fast fall speed, and illusion meaning he can take advantage the platforms more easily that other characters can. After connecting aerials, you can continue pressuring them high into the blast zones by jumping from the elevated platforms.

Kongo jungle is another map I like because of the high blast zones and cannon. Fox's biggest problem is his weight and dying early. It gives you the chance to survive MUCH longer than normal, surviving Diddy uair etc. Then the rage mechanic kicks in and you can kill with bair, uair etc. Shine stalling into cannons is a good option.

Id avoid walk off ledges like delfino and castle siege. Theres no benefit while characters like falcon with his gentleman combo, or anyone with a strong throw can kill ridiculously early. Falcon can jab you at any percent and if you're too close to the ledge you die no matter what, no reason to introduce that. The water on delfino can get you spiked and the pillars on siege stop lasers. Theres no reason to choose these. I'd ban them since you have nothing to gain.

Halberd gets you early kills but your susceptible to sharking and stage hazards.

These are just general impressions not every specific matchup. Keep in mind the blast zones are the same for both characters in a match so taking diddy to halberd will get you earlier kills but chances are he'll be the one killing off the top first. Same with kongo, living longer is cool until you're fighting yoshi living to 180%.


Summary: Pretty much what everyone else's been saying
Good: BF, Town, FD
Eh: Smashville
Bad: Lylat, Delfino, Castle
Maybe(matchup dependent): Duck hunt, halberd, Kongo

 

[Timbers]

*snip*

Thanks for the write up. If I may pick your brain, I had a few questions in regards to your post:

1) You mentioned that opponents who land on the ledge are "easy to punish." What makes you feel that people reseting to ledge is a good thing for Fox? I feel like the popular opinion is that Fox has bad options for opponents who choose this, as Fox has a weak offstage game and his punishes for getup options are pretty crappy outside of a bair read on a ledgejump/ledgehop. A lot of characters can abuse standing get-up with lingering hitboxes or threatening throws, which Fox sadly lacks. What do you feel Fox has going for him that constitutes a strong ledge punish game?

2) I can see where you're coming from on the idea of Smashville's platform being a good place to give charge characters room to breathe, but I feel that even a moving platform is better than no platforms. The bair and uair opportunities become very real once platforms are introduced. A moving platform also helps Fox reach difficult zoning characters, as his sh approach options are not amazing. Fox also has difficulty following people in the air, and an additional platform gives him the ability to use his run speed to continue pressure on aerial opponents. FD gives Fox a lot of movement, but the lack of platforms makes for a much harder time in setting up kill opportunities and alleviate Fox's pressure, allowing opponents to reset to ledge more easily. Am I wrong here?

 

[SnowballBob33]

Thanks for the write up. If I may pick your brain, I had a few questions in regards to your post:

1) You mentioned that opponents who land on the ledge are "easy to punish." What makes you feel that people reseting to ledge is a good thing for Fox? I feel like the popular opinion is that Fox has bad options for opponents who choose this, as Fox has a weak offstage game and his punishes for getup options are pretty crappy outside of a bair read on a ledgejump/ledgehop. A lot of characters can abuse standing get-up with lingering hitboxes or threatening throws, which Fox sadly lacks. What do you feel Fox has going for him that constitutes a strong ledge punish game?

2) I can see where you're coming from on the idea of Smashville's platform being a good place to give charge characters room to breathe, but I feel that even a moving platform is better than no platforms. The bair and uair opportunities become very real once platforms are introduced. A moving platform also helps Fox reach difficult zoning characters, as his sh approach options are not amazing. Fox also has difficulty following people in the air, and an additional platform gives him the ability to use his run speed to continue pressure on aerial opponents. FD gives Fox a lot of movement, but the lack of platforms makes for a much harder time in setting up kill opportunities and alleviate Fox's pressure, allowing opponents to reset to ledge more easily. Am I wrong here?

whaaatt?? alot of his moves have long lasting active frames, dash attack, fsmash, nair and dair all cover the stand up option. it comes down to reaction/anticipation but you can cover a lot of options very quickly. nair and dash attack especially. dash attack also combos into fair. if timed right, which isn't hard to do, you get kills often from fsmashing someone on the stand up option. fsmash lasts very long as well, so throwing it early may result in a weaker hit, but you still do get the punish. the safest and my favorite option is ftilt. if you watch some of my matches you can see how its not hard to land ftilts on people standing off the ledge. if someone jumps from the ledge, they become commited to the ground because they can no longer retreat to the edge. if they go back then they get a guaranteed down smash with their invulnerability gone. this is the reason why I sometimes get rid of smashville so they cant abuse a high priority aerial to safely get the ride back/camp that platform. i 100% agree fox has tools/shield pressure and followups, but personally id rather avoid that specific scenario. also, often ive gotted jabbed by luigi/falcon or backthrown by megaman/sonic etc. on smashville and died because i got caught on the edge of the platform. fox can't capitalize nearly as well as alot of the cast can.
its not hard to set up kill opportunities either. nair->usmash, dtilt->uair, illusion->uair, utilt->uair/bair, ledge trump->dsmash. and dont forget JAB JAB USMASH. fox is fast and one of the best at punishing landings so fd doesnt leave them anywhere to retreat to.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I find also that going to the ledge sucks.
I can frametrap and juggle the **** out of people, but once they start escaping to the ledge its pretty tricky.
The chances of them getting hits on you become higher, and you dont get much off reads most of the time.
Fsmash is good but dangerous.
Ftilt and nair are great and I land them constantly which puts people back onto the ledge, but one, two or even three ftilts/nairs isnt spectacular and it almost seems like the opponent doesnt need to care since they take maybe 15% and with a bit of smart play can get back onto the stage in neutral after a few trys.
I wish fox had good offs-stage punish options :<

also

Halberd gets you early kills but your susceptible to sharking

If you read a shark, you can shield it. In brawl it didn't matter if you shield it because you couldn't do anything back to them so they could **** around with you all day, but now without having ledge invincibility, usually when people try to shark me they end up dead.
Shield > Dsmash when they regrab, EZ.
I feel like this is a point in halberds favor against almost all the cast rather than a negative, because people still are at the point where they will try things like that (things that worked in brawl) and get punished for it.

 

[KentaKurodani]

Not entirely sure about this, but another reason that Smashville could be less than preferable is because the platform could grab your opponents and move them out of your range from the ledge. Don't quite remember the name for it, but the new ledgehugging AT where you run off the ledge and roll the stick quickly along the lower half to the opposite side to quickgrab sets us up for great ledgetrump Bairs, which kills closer to 90%-100% because of how close to the blast zone you are, even earlier with rage. If the platform is low enough that the "jump" from someone being ledgetrumped intercepts it, they could glide right out of your range and possibly even punish if you were mid-bair when he landed. IIRC all the platforms on T&C are higher than the smashville one.

 

[YGK]

I agree with a lot of the analysis so far, but I think Fox's ledge game is a lot better than some of you seem to think, it just requires a bit of extra work to really make the most of.

Timed correctly, Down smash can really mess with some characters attempts to grab the ledge; If you're good enough you can hit during the 1 frame of the grab animation before invincibility sets in, watch this video of Larry Lurr's Fox against Falln's Rosalina: [apparently I can't post links until I've made 10 posts, so just search "SSS - Larry Lurr (Fox) Vs. Falln (Rosalina) SSB4 Winners Round 5 "]

Not many people can be that consistent with a 1-frame punish, but it can end a stock quite early and if you miss most players aren't able to punish you for it, just shield and react to their get-up option (some players who really want to punish you will tend to bash A and do a get-up attack, if you shield it you can usually get a free grab. At higher % consider B or F throwing them to set up another attempt at smashing their edge grab, or to fake them out into landing on stage)

Also, there are characters who will frequently overshoot the ledge when using their Up-B (Diddy, Captain Falcon, Ganon, Marth/Lucinia, Shulk), when this happens they are very vulnerable to a lot of different attacks, if you see you opponent doing this a lot, be ready to punish it. (against some characters you may need to shield the attack first)

Also, without invincibility frames, Fox's D-Smash and U-Tilt are very good, practice dropping onto the ledge as your opponent grabs it, if they don't immediately use their getup option, they are in a very bad spot. Most characters can only choose between re-grabbing the edge, or landing on stage. U-Tilt covers both options pretty well, and a partially charged D-Smash will kill most of the cast above ~80%

 

[DavemanCozy]

Halberd gets you early kills but your susceptible to sharking and stage hazards.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really mind the hazards in Halberd. In fact, I find I can use Fox's movement to set up the hazards in my favour. For example, if the homing laser cannon is locked in on me, I just jump and dash around my opponent's range, then move out of the way when the cannon fires. That laser lasts a long time, enough to set up a deadzone that you know your opponent won't want to get near.

 

[Timbers]

whaaatt?? alot of his moves have long lasting active frames, dash attack, fsmash, nair and dair all cover the stand up option. it comes down to reaction/anticipation but you can cover a lot of options very quickly. nair and dash attack especially. dash attack also combos into fair. if timed right, which isn't hard to do, you get kills often from fsmashing someone on the stand up option. fsmash lasts very long as well, so throwing it early may result in a weaker hit, but you still do get the punish. the safest and my favorite option is ftilt. if you watch some of my matches you can see how its not hard to land ftilts on people standing off the ledge. if someone jumps from the ledge, they become commited to the ground because they can no longer retreat to the edge.

Perhaps I'm just underselling these options, but dair/nair/ftilt are just chip damage and a ledge reset for the opponent. Fsmash works as kill opportunity but is also pretty weak as far as fsmashes are concerned, and should you miss then you're likely dead to bthrows or usmash/upB OoS, as Fox has one of the few VERY unsafe fsmashes in the viable roster. Enough options to put Fox offstage, and then he has to deal with (what I consider) stronger ledge options against Fox (kill throws. sh kill aerials. kill tilts. safe fsmashes on shield. etc.). Stronger, safer, lethal options. This is to assume Fox makes it back to the stage, as edgeguarding Fox's linear recovery is not the hardest thing in the world.

 

[luke_atyeo]

yeah, to me it kinda feels like foxes ledge game is good, if your opponent doesn't know how to play around your ledge game, if they do you are very limited.

Edge trumping can work, but again if your opponent knows what to do, most of the time they can just double jump with an aerial that beats out our options or something along those lines.

 

[YGK]

I can agree that Fox isn't especially well equipped for abusing the ledge at higher levels of play, and in general he is more vulnerable to other high-tier character's off-stage game than they are to his, but I don't think he's in such a bad spot; he can stay off stage a lot longer and recover from farther away than most, so you can wait out a smash attack waiting for you on stage, and once fox grabs the ledge he has the same options everyone else has, plus a few extra tricks like ledge jump into shine/firefox/illusion. While some characters can follow him off stage with confidence, any attack that doesn't kill you leaves you with a fresh side-B and up-B, which is a lot more recovery power than most characters will have after hitting you.

With an opponent who knows how to play around your ledge game options, Fox does seem a bit weak, but if we are considering that level of play then we should also consider just how good fox can be when you hit those 1-frame punishes (an aspect of smash 4 I think is very under explored and under exploited). Ledge-snap Dsmash can kill at high% (or mid% w/ rage), and Utilt can convert into Uair or Bair in some scenarios (I haven't played with this too much on the ledge, but Utilt sets up a lot of things on stage, I would expect it to offer some of the same opportunities off stage)

Looking at punishing get-up options offers a lot of interesting possibilities. Fox might lack especially powerful lingering hit boxes, but his jab is super fast (Jab 1 has a hitbox on frame 2, IDK the numbers on his continuous jab, but it's fast), as is Utilt (hitbox on frame 3 according to Thinkaman's frame data spreadsheets), with these Fox can cover everything but ledge jumping on any character without a crazy deep ledge roll like Captain Falcon, both of these have amazing follow up options (double jab into Usmash is guaranteed at kill % on several characters, search youtube for "Fox's Double Jab Combo! (Wii U/3DS)" to see what else it can do). As for the ledge jump option, it's not that bad of a position for fox, they are down a jump so if you follow them with an aerial it could end the stock, if you stay where you are they can only land on one side of you since re-grabbing the ledge is basically suicide. Once my opponent ledge jumps I just prepare to shield their aerial, or attack if they try to land. If they go for the safe option and move across stage to reset to neutral, I usually send a few lasers their direction, if my attempts to ledge punish only result in 5% damage, slightly fresher moves, and a positional reset, I think it was still a profitable exchange.

I realize I've spend a lot of time talking about frame-perfect play and hypothesizing about situations with the assumption that the other player doesn't bait you into anything or simply beat you to the punch, this is a high-paced game and even a good player isn't guaranteed to win an exchange when the situation favors them. The important part is that Fox's bag of tricks is deep, and with good technical skills he can capitalize on just about any situation.

Now then, this has turned into a discussion about Fox's ledge game instead of his general stage preferences. Despite what my position on his ledge game may imply, I usually try to keep the game in the center of the stage, since I'm a very momentum based player and when the fight moves closer to the edge the opponent has more of a reason to back off and slow the game down. I know battlefield creates a lot of kill setups for fox, but I actually don't like fighting there as much, partially because I'm simply not as good at using platforms to my advantage as more experienced players are, and partially because I like to minimize the options I need to consider from my opponent at any given moment. I like FD, but against any opponent with projectiles I think it's a bit too much space to cover without any platforms, so I'd prefer town and city. When picking an omega stage, put some thought into the mild differences, like wall hanging. Also, be wary of stages with grass, I haven't done much testing, but I've heard that you slide less on stages like Windy Hill Zone, so you will have a hard time landing a fade-back into DACUS, my preferred center stage kill move. (also, avoid grassy stages against villager, his tree sprout thingy can be hard to spot).

 

[Probalo]

Smashville seems to be a very neutral stage for Fox. The single platform allows for pressure and possible kills at low percents.

 

[Xiivi]

I've honestly found myself very comfortable with Fox on Duck Hunt. Ledges with wall is great; he can control the weird platform layout well. No real issues with the blast zones. Halbred and Delfino I avoid; because Fox is paper pretty much the advantages he gets from a low ceiling are moot considering it usually helps like Diddy/Sheik/ZSS/Rosalina kill you easier and you end up with lame ledges that limit you in your already limited recovery mix-ups.

 

[YGK]

I think the decision to go somewhere with closer blast zones like Duck Hunt depends more on how you feel about your opponent than anything else; if you think you can effectively avoid the kill opportunities it creates for your opponent, it can really simplify things for fox. One of the toughest aspects of playing fox in my experience is finishing off an opponent who's got great recovery and over 125% damage, they take enough knock-back that a lot of setups for kill moves don't work, and while I'm fishing for the kill they are tacking on damage. I often find myself losing a strong lead in games where I can reliably outplay my opponent in neutral, but I just can't finish the stock, this is the sort of game Duck Hunt is great for, the stage will do some of the work for you.

I don't like Delfino for a couple reasons, it's usually not big enough to make use of your speed advantage, a stage transition can end combo's prematurely, and in my experience there's just something about Delfino that makes people follow you off stage more often.

 

[jr22]

Battlefield is still the best stage for him because the platforms give him a number of recovery options, Duck hunt and halberd are good stages because of the close blasts zones for both of the stages.