Fox 3.0

[Mr.Random]

While he didn't get nerfed directly the ceiling raises give people more counterpick options. Am I ok with this? Yes. I feel Fox isn't broken for one reason and one reason only (same thing for Falco). One ****ed up input means you die or take 60-80%. Now I think the ceiling raises + the 2.6 nerfs are enough at this point. I love Fox the way he is now. (I hate Falco though).

 

[Nemiak temp]

Focs is breaked moar nerfz pls

 

[Giygacoal]

I don't think Fox is super broken, just a bit overpowered. He's not overpowered because of the up-smash. The effectiveness in the neutral game is likely the culprit. His dash dance is too good.

 

[Alex Night]

Can't let you do that, Star Fox...

Still, Fox is Fox and that will never change for as long as Project M stays true to the whole Melee aspects with a sprinkle of Brawl.

 

[Mr.Random]

I don't think Fox is super broken, just a bit overpowered. He's not overpowered because of the up-smash. The effectiveness in the neutral game is likely the culprit. His dash dance is too good.

If Fox is played perfectly then yes he's unstoppable (again best character on paper). But since we are human, we are going to make mistakes eventually, and that's when Fox gets destroyed. You want proof? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8oAxxHPmlc

 

[Mr.Random]

Can't let you do that, Star Fox...

Still, Fox is Fox and that will never change for as long as Project M stays true to the whole Melee aspects with a sprinkle of Brawl.

Not to mention that Falco was the start of PM. I just find it frustrating that instead of outplaying opponents and learning different MUs that they need to nerf spacies to beat him. Did you see PMBR Strong Bad's temper tantrum over Spacies at Big House 3? That was embarrassing. They had to edit it out of the video and delete the comments involved with it.

 

[Giygacoal]

Not to mention that Falco was the start of PM. I just find it frustrating that instead of outplaying opponents and learning different MUs that they need to nerf spacies to beat him. Did you see PMBR Strong Bad's temper tantrum over Spacies at Big House 3? That was embarrassing. They had to edit it out of the video and delete the comments involved with it.

Damn, what did SB say?
Also, this isn't ONLY about nerfing spacies to beat them. It's about good design as well. True, Fox is a lass cannon, but why leave the balance up to error?

 

[dRevan64]

Fox is the exact same, you just have to play slightly longer before you win.
Yo and if anyone has strongbad's temper tantrum anywhere I NEED to see that

 

[DMG]

Strongbad basically said what we all know: people go bat**** over any Spacie changes and despite both characters deserving nerfs, people would rather burn Mother Teresa at the stake than tune either of them

 

[G13_Flux]

wow M2k has honestly bested mango in several of the last tournaments theyve faced in recently. pretty funny how mango used to destroy M2k back in the day.

the only nerf fox and falco received were the loss of invincibility on shines and less laser damage at distances. and honestly, both of those really only apply to fox, since he had the speed before to just run in and shine blatantly and would use it to shine spike. falcos laser really isnt as much about building up damage as it is locking opponents down, and his shine wasnt used as frequently in the same situations as fox's that involved the overkill use of the invincibility. with the re-addition of melee shield mechanics, its actually a subtle buff to both of them (from previous PM versions at least, since shine OOS will connect more and less characters will be pushed out of their on-shield pressure. dRevans statement is really correct, since none of their character dynamics have changed a bit, theyve only slightly (and by slightly, i mean very slightly) reduced their ability to build up quick damage, and made it so that instead of winning most of their direct challenges, now they will trade/clank with a higher percentage of those, and lose a small percent of them.

 

[Mr.Random]

Damn, what did SB say?
Also, this isn't ONLY about nerfing spacies to beat them. It's about good design as well. True, Fox is a lass cannon, but why leave the balance up to error?

The video was SB vs. SFat at Big House 3. At the end of the match it abruptly cuts because it was edited out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DtzIF7zyOA Look at the comments

 

[Mr.Random]

wow M2k has honestly bested mango in several of the last tournaments theyve faced in recently. pretty funny how mango used to destroy M2k back in the day.

the only nerf fox and falco received were the loss of invincibility on shines and less laser damage at distances. and honestly, both of those really only apply to fox, since he had the speed before to just run in and shine blatantly and would use it to shine spike. falcos laser really isnt as much about building up damage as it is locking opponents down, and his shine wasnt used as frequently in the same situations as fox's that involved the overkill use of the invincibility. with the re-addition of melee shield mechanics, its actually a subtle buff to both of them (from previous PM versions at least, since shine OOS will connect more and less characters will be pushed out of their on-shield pressure. dRevans statement is really correct, since none of their character dynamics have changed a bit, theyve only slightly (and by slightly, i mean very slightly) reduced their ability to build up quick damage, and made it so that instead of winning most of their direct challenges, now they will trade/clank with a higher percentage of those, and lose a small percent of them.

No I'm saying I like the nerfs they have now and they should stay like they are in 3.0

 

[Giygacoal]

How could people NOT think Falco deserves to be nerfed? That last match is silly.
DK's still got some powerful combos though.

 

[Strong Badam]

The stage blastzones were changed to be more in line with Melee. If you have a problem with Melee, we could oblige by reverting Fox to Brawl. Your choice. I think we both know which one you prefer, though.

The video was SB vs. SFat at Big House 3. At the end of the match it abruptly cuts because it was edited out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DtzIF7zyOA Look at the comments

If you really have nothing better to do than this, you've got far bigger problems than I do. I moved on from this the day after it happened, you should be able to do the same. Leave me alone.

 

[Oracle]

Temper tantrum over spacies? Who said it was about spacies? More likely sb was upset at getting 13th which is his worst pm placing literally ever. Most people would be pretty steamed after something like that regardless of who the opponent played.

Also spacies are obviously broken lmao and this is coming from someone who has never lost to a fox besides m2k. Ive given up on hoping for nerfs ill just use the fact that most spacie mains are bad players to win anyways

 

[ArtehFX]

PM players still ***** about spacies? lmao

 

[Oracle]

Fite me irl ill rek ya m8

 

[Mr.Random]

How could people NOT think Falco deserves to be nerfed? That last match is silly.
DK's still got some powerful combos though.

Exactly his performance was solid so why be mad? If he got a couple more grabs he would've won.

 

[Giygacoal]

Exactly his performance was solid so why be mad? If he got a couple more grabs he would've won.

I'm not mad, it's just that Falco has so much control.

 

[1MachGO]

Temper tantrum over spacies? Who said it was about spacies? More likely sb was upset at getting 13th which is his worst pm placing literally ever. Most people would be pretty steamed after something like that regardless of who the opponent played.

Also spacies are obviously broken lmao and this is coming from someone who has never lost to a fox besides m2k. Ive given up on hoping for nerfs ill just use the fact that most spacie mains are bad players to win anyways

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg-U_HsP84Q

 

[Mr.Random]

I'm not mad, it's just that Falco has so much control.

No I'm talking about SB being mad not you lol.

 

[foxygrandpa]

fox and falco are definitely at the top of the tier list, because in the end, they do have the best neutral games out of everyone. However, literally every character in this game can 0-death combo them with a grab, and has plenty of tools for gimping. Falco is not any more unfair than fox is, because literally all you have to do is wait for him to make a single mistake near the edge, force him off and hit him once. The reason that space players dominate is because the spacies are the same as they are in melee. Most melee characters can execute better, especially since the fox tech skill is slightly simplified in project m. I main fox, but hate the fox ditto, and usually play with pit or sheik against fox. It seems to me like a lot of the community cannot execute well enough and are simply playing with fox for no other reason that people saying that he is top tier, and these players are easily wiped out. With the spacies punishment being so hard, it should make sense that they dont have much room for error. Fox and falco are extremely good characters, but a good player would be able to capitalize off the other players weaknesses.

 

[1MachGO]

^Yes. People need to learn that picking Fox and Falco doesn't mean you'll win. If you lose to a space animal, it means they are better than you. The skill floor to be competitively effective with Fox/Falco is way higher than most characters.

 

[Mr.Random]

fox and falco are definitely at the top of the tier list, because in the end, they do have the best neutral games out of everyone. However, literally every character in this game can 0-death combo them with a grab, and has plenty of tools for gimping. Falco is not any more unfair than fox is, because literally all you have to do is wait for him to make a single mistake near the edge, force him off and hit him once. The reason that space players dominate is because the spacies are the same as they are in melee. Most melee characters can execute better, especially since the fox tech skill is slightly simplified in project m. I main fox, but hate the fox ditto, and usually play with pit or sheik against fox. It seems to me like a lot of the community cannot execute well enough and are simply playing with fox for no other reason that people saying that he is top tier, and these players are easily wiped out. With the spacies punishment being so hard, it should make sense that they dont have much room for error. Fox and falco are extremely good characters, but a good player would be able to capitalize off the other players weaknesses.

You are like the voice of reason I needed <3. I have nothing else to say lol.

 

[Mr.Random]

I don't think Fox is super broken, just a bit overpowered. He's not overpowered because of the up-smash. The effectiveness in the neutral game is likely the culprit. His dash dance is too good.

If we went by that logic then Marth and Capt. Falcon are too good because they have better dash dances.

 

[Yurya]

I don't think Fox is super broken, just a bit overpowered. He's not overpowered because of the up-smash. The effectiveness in the neutral game is likely the culprit. His dash dance is too good.

Its not the dash dance, it is his falling speed combined with a good jump height and shorthop. He along with Falco and Falcon can take up so much space in the air with relatively little punishment. Floaty characters like Jiggz/Peach can only make up the difference with some brokenly good moves themselves. And even though they can be comboed easily with certain moves; on low angle kb they can land much earlier and tech safely (not shared by Falcon) which actually makes them harder to kill.

 

[Mr.Random]

I feel Fox's up smash needs to do 5 more damage. lol

 

[dRevan64]

And even though they can be comboed easily with certain moves; on low angle kb they can land much earlier and tech safely (not shared by Falcon) which actually makes them harder to kill.

Not inherently a strength, since they can then be techchased to hell and back. None of the spacies have great tech rolls. And off a throw that's a lot better than getting maybe a single hit then watching your floaty opponent just kinda leave because they're too far away to get anything off on.

 

[Deleted member]

^Yes. People need to learn that picking Fox and Falco doesn't mean you'll win. If you lose to a space animal, it means they are better than you. The skill floor to be competitively effective with Fox/Falco is way higher than most characters.

shhh your join date is showing. and i don't mean under your name.

 

[1MachGO]

shhh your join date is showing. and i don't mean under your name.

My join date is deceptive. My first account was on Smashmods over two years ago and I was lurking longer than that.

 

[Deleted member]

that's a bad thing, not a good thing. if you lose to a space animal while you are not on a space animal, you could make a case that the other player was smarter than you for picking a space animal. but that's about where it ends.

 

[Mr.Random]

I still think the fact that the spacies have gimpable recoveries and get combo'd by EVERY character + the laser and shine nerfs AND the ceiling raises balance Spacies out.

 

[DMG]

Higher ceilings is gonna push for more shine spikes! THIS IS MY DREAM

 

[Mr.Random]

Higher ceilings is gonna push for more shine spikes! THIS IS MY DREAM

DMG you da bess

 

[DMG]

I am real cheesy when it comes to Shine with Fox offstage. I will die trying, for the glory

 

[1MachGO]

that's a bad thing, not a good thing. if you lose to a space animal while you are not on a space animal, you could make a case that the other player was smarter than you for picking a space animal. but that's about where it ends.

Unless the MU involves a hard counter/not viable character, player skill will ultimately determine who the better player is.

 

[DMG]

I don't have to be better than a guy, to run around and shine him to death

 

[Yurya]

Not inherently a strength, since they can then be techchased to hell and back. None of the spacies have great tech rolls. And off a throw that's a lot better than getting maybe a single hit then watching your floaty opponent just kinda leave because they're too far away to get anything off on.

It is a deceptive strength but I would argue that it is a significant strength nonetheless. Arguing by frames yes there tech rolls are slower but the large amount of frames they gained in reaching the ground early more than makes up for it. While with the right KB angle an opponent will take advantage of the falling speed, in the midst of a fight that isn't always happening.
And floaties aren't free and safe once you knock them away; most of the time they are at a disadvantageous "staggered" position. Granted that while some top tiers floaties like Jiggz, Peach, and Samus have the tools to survive or even thrive while airbourne, the staggered state still applies.
It is a shame that there isn't a value chart for character traits as I believe that certain traits are more valuable than others and that falling speed is by far the most significant.

 

[Foxy K]

Higher ceilings is gonna push for more shine spikes! THIS IS MY DREAM

Preach it, brother!

 

[TKD]

higher ceilings just makes them the same as melee ceilings lol