For Glory mode was not made for the competitive community

[Aninymouse]

If I could be a mod, I would both lock this thread AND sticky it, because amidst all the pig-headed bickering, there have been quite a few posts which I found intriguing.

@ Acadian Flycatcher , I agree with the premise of your thread, and I'm grateful for it, because for a while there I couldn't make my mind up as to exactly why they made For Glory like they did. But, like some have said, using the term "competitive community" as a broad term for the tournament/professional scene has caused problems. Although I think @ Chimera is a poor communicator (sorry buddy, nothing personal), he and others have a valid point in that the OP made a fatal flaw in pointing at "competitive players," as the term is too broad.

That aid, OP, I knew what you meant. I agree with your assessment and am grateful for helping me solidify my own thoughts on the For Glory mode.

At the same time, I too would be annoyed at people complaining about "no battlefield and smashville too, Sakurai is ignorant of how WE do things, etc." The sentiment about Sakurai's ignorance or unwillingness to design a mode that allows "EVO in my living room" are, to be blunt, annoying. As for "battlefield and smashville too," others have stated why this would be ultimately worse: if the stage was decided through RNG, it wouldn't be fair; if the stage was decided through voting, it would make things take longer and would basically be Brawl online all over again; if you expect Sakurai to design, say, 10-20 different versions of final destination, battlefield AND smashville, well, that's just unnecessary and quite a lot of developement time spent on a mode played with RANDOMS.

But yes, despite the salt, I liked this thread. If nothing else, I hope both sides learned something.

 

[Tristan_win]

We've seen consistent (across multiple characters in the plentiful footage we have) increase in distance on throws, including input from higher tier players, the increase being so significant that grab chains are impossible.

Zero spoke extensively about the projectile nerfs for almost every character in the demo roster.

Your doing it again, you can't make claims for things we haven't seen/play yet. Just because every character we been able to play so far hasn't been able to chain grab doesn't mean it wont return for the characters we haven't seen.

 

[Aninymouse]

Your doing it again, you can't make claims for things we haven't seen/play yet. Just because every character we been able to play so far hasn't been able to chain grab doesn't mean it wont return for the characters we haven't seen.

You are correct, however, based on what we have seen so far, it is not unreasonable to postulate on "projectiles and chain grabs being nerfed" being the way that Smash 4 will go. Will it be absolutely that way? We don't know yet. But so far, it looks that way.

As long as you understand that, there's no harm in postulating on stage balance while making that assumption. I mean, otherwise, there's nothing to talk about, other than, "oh, this stage has a OHKO hazard/walk-off, it's banned." Well, no duh. Y'know? So yeah, I don't see the harm.

 

[Tristan_win]

You are correct, however, based on what we have seen so far, it is not unreasonable to postulate on "projectiles and chain grabs being nerfed" being the way that Smash 4 will go. Will it be absolutely that way? We don't know yet. But so far, it looks that way.

As long as you understand that, there's no harm in postulating on stage balance while making that assumption. I mean, otherwise, there's nothing to talk about, other than, "oh, this stage has a OHKO hazard/walk-off, it's banned." Well, no duh. Y'know? So yeah, I don't see the harm.

Speculation sure, those are fine and I understand why we shouldn't always go the way of 'You can never know for sure until the game comes out' because as you said there wouldn't be anything to talk about. However with the person I'm arguing against I don't think he understands this due to his response to Red Ryu

Platforms can in turn favor others a lot stronger than FD can.

The reason FD becomes a "not balanced" stage are grab shinanigans.

Which we've already covered in a wealth of topics has been modified (along with projectiles) so I can't possibly understand how that's still an argument.

This post shows he doesn't understand the differences between speculation and facts. 'The argument is over, this is how things are now' is how I read his response which is so very wrong. I'll admit that how things look right now chain grabs might be out and projectiles might not be as dominate but if in the final built of the game they are shown to still exist and are good I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.

 

[Fishbowl]

If I could be a mod, I would both lock this thread AND sticky it, because amidst all the pig-headed bickering, there have been quite a few posts which I found intriguing.

@ Acadian Flycatcher , I agree with the premise of your thread, and I'm grateful for it, because for a while there I couldn't make my mind up as to exactly why they made For Glory like they did. But, like some have said, using the term "competitive community" as a broad term for the tournament/professional scene has caused problems. Although I think @ Chimera is a poor communicator (sorry buddy, nothing personal), he and others have a valid point in that the OP made a fatal flaw in pointing at "competitive players," as the term is too broad.

That aid, OP, I knew what you meant. I agree with your assessment and am grateful for helping me solidify my own thoughts on the For Glory mode.

At the same time, I too would be annoyed at people complaining about "no battlefield and smashville too, Sakurai is ignorant of how WE do things, etc." The sentiment about Sakurai's ignorance or unwillingness to design a mode that allows "EVO in my living room" are, to be blunt, annoying. As for "battlefield and smashville too," others have stated why this would be ultimately worse: if the stage was decided through RNG, it wouldn't be fair; if the stage was decided through voting, it would make things take longer and would basically be Brawl online all over again; if you expect Sakurai to design, say, 10-20 different versions of final destination, battlefield AND smashville, well, that's just unnecessary and quite a lot of developement time spent on a mode played with RANDOMS.

But yes, despite the salt, I liked this thread. If nothing else, I hope both sides learned something.

After reading through four pages of this tragedy, I almost cried because of the clarity of your comment.

 

[Aninymouse]

After reading through four pages of this tragedy, I almost cried because of the clarity of your comment.

Haha, thanks. I don't see a benefit to bragging, but I have been told I have a gift for communicating things clearly. At least sometimes. Glad to see I was of service.

 

[Soul.]

Wasn't For Glory made because the developers thought the players spent most of their time in Final Destination?
I think that's why almost all stages will have a Final Destination form.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Speculation sure, those are fine and I understand why we shouldn't always go the way of 'You can never know for sure until the game comes out' because as you said there wouldn't be anything to talk about. However with the person I'm arguing against I don't think he understands this due to his response to Red Ryu





This post shows he doesn't understand the differences between speculation and facts. 'The argument is over, this is how things are now' is how I read his response which is so very wrong. I'll admit that how things look right now chain grabs might be out and projectiles might not be as dominate but if in the final built of the game they are shown to still exist and are good I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.

Or, or...maybe...just maybe...I believe it's simply implied that what I'm saying on an internet gaming forum is my opinion so just because I'm speaking in a way that asserts absolution doesn't mean I'm not open to other possibilities.

Niny hit the nail on the head, what is there even to talk about if there's no changes to speak of? Nothing. Yet, there is evidence of change...so discussion on the premise of said change is more valuable than discussion on the premise of an assumption of something that seems less likely at this point (absolutely zero changes).

This happens so often on this forum for some reason, people battling to make sure other people know that what they're saying is just an opinion or subjective. Yes. I'm aware. Moving on.

Your doing it again, you can't make claims for things we haven't seen/play yet. Just because every character we been able to play so far hasn't been able to chain grab doesn't mean it wont return for the characters we haven't seen.

Also, in the post you quoted I'm not even making claims, I'm just stating factual things that have been observed. We HAVE seen many characters with their throw ranges increased significantly (on 0% characters), and Zero DID address a consistent projectile nerf across the cast. Those things have simply happened.

 

[Aninymouse]

Wasn't For Glory made because the developers thought the players spent most of their time in Final Destination?
I think that's why almost all stages will have a Final Destination form.

At the least, it is part of it, yes. It's also just smart game design to have a random online mode that has some modicum of structure, e.g., no items, only one kind of stage, no hazards, etc. The fact that they picked FD is definitely debateable as to whether it was the best choice, but it is a reasonable choice.

And again, no one should reasonably expect major tournaments to run under For Glory mode exclusively, if at all. It should be taken for what it is: a fun matchmaking mode with random people.

If the FD-like stages are available outside that mode, though, many of them could be viable tournament stages. You would be able to choose any set of rules you liked, at that point, which should suit everyone's needs.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

This thread has become a mess.

I didn't create it to start a riot.
I created it to raise a awareness that you shouldn't get upset over a mode that wasn't made specifically for you.

Sakurai made this mode for casuals who want to play a more serious match against 1 other person.
The average joe who goes to work, comes home, has a beer, and wants to unwind and play a few matches before he watches Netflix.
He's never heard of people getting together from around the country to have a Smash Bros. tournament.
He has never seen M2K play.
He still thinks Chad playing as Pikachu is the best Smash Bros. player he will ever see.
He loves playing 1 on 1, but he is tired of playing against a computer. He wants a human brain to fight against. He doesn't have many other friends with Wii U's, so he's limited to playing against strangers online.
He got tired of playing 4 for all item matches with Brawl online, so now he wants something more serious.
He doesn't want to get ****ed over by Pokemon on Spear Pillar, or get hit by a Shy Guy driving a car. He wants a flat service that is just him and some other stranger.
Luckily now he gets that option.

The EVO/competitive/tournament/etc. player is different.
They always want a 1 on 1, no bull**** match.
That's all they do everyday.
They practice to get better. They practice to win tournaments. They practice to travel to fight the best players in the country.
They know every technique, ones that the average joe will never hear of.
Sure they can compete against their friends at home for fun, but that's not where they thrive.
They thrive under the pressure in the immense community.
This is when they pour their heart and soul into the match to win.
There is actually a prize, aside from just glory.
They get money, fame, and a future.
A chance to continue to work their way up the rankings of the best Smash Bros. players in the world.
They can't remember the last time they've played someone who didn't know how to wavedash.
Meanwhile average joe has never heard of it.
These players don't want to be tied down just to Final Destination.
They have gotten over the cliche that Final Destination is the place to go for 1 v 1s.
But average joe hasn't, it's still his #1 choice.
These players want options, variety, carefully selected stages that are fair.
Options to choose and the ability ban certain stages.
They want to set their own rules. Best 2 out of 3, stock.
They want and NEED a lot more than just Final Destination to keep their interest.

Sakurai knows this.
Everyone at Nintendo knows this.
It's impossible for you to not be aware of such a huge community for your own game.

Sakurai himself doesn't really deal much with that community for whatever reason.
So he made this mode for the average joe in mind.
Because he knows EVO isn't the only place where people play competitively.




@ Chimera sure technically I used the denotative meaning of the word "competitive" in a way that contradicted itself. But I think I already made it clear in the first post what I meant, and everyone else understood.

If you are still going to argue after this about the literal meaning of the word "competitive" than you are too stubborn for your own good. You would rather see Smash 4 delayed 3 years than admit that in a connotative way, you are wrong.

 

[Greda]

I have a hunch that this is going to continue into an argument.
Still, before that happens, I want to restate some key points to everyone.

-For Glory is made for players who want to play on a competitive standpoint, and that's fine. It is also for players who don't want to deal with Items, nor Stages other than FD. Some people will actually want to test their skill in this way.

-The main objective of For Glory is NOT to hold tournaments, nor cater to this "tournament competitive" crowd.

-Everyone will dislike and like features of the game. It should be respected if someone does not like For Glory, but please, if you are saying you dislike it, don't announce it as if you were giving someone who likes For Glory a slap to the face.

-For Glory isn't perfect, nor is For Fun. No one should be arguing over these types of features of the game. It's enough that we have it, and it's better for us if we had these types of online than not at all. (Though, I'm not saying Criticism is bad.)

 

[Hero of the Winds]

Idk why people are complaining about For Glory...I mean, it's a competitive players paradise, and a casuals challenge. Anyone can plat For Glory, and I love that fact! You don't need to go to these big tournament things, and now we get extra scenery with Final Destination for most stages.

 

[josh bones]

For glory is not for the pro players.
For glory is for the competitive players
huge difference, one is the guys who do this as a job, the other is the people who think their good.
Also, this is a with anyone mode so, this can't be used to settle anything.

 

[Chimera]

This thread has become a mess.

I didn't create it to start a riot.
I created it to raise a awareness that you shouldn't get upset over a mode that wasn't made specifically for you.

Sakurai made this mode for casuals who want to play a more serious match against 1 other person.
The average joe who goes to work, comes home, has a beer, and wants to unwind and play a few matches before he watches Netflix.
He's never heard of people getting together from around the country to have a Smash Bros. tournament.
He has never seen M2K play.
He still thinks Chad playing as Pikachu is the best Smash Bros. player he will ever see.
He loves playing 1 on 1, but he is tired of playing against a computer. He wants a human brain to fight against. He doesn't have many other friends with Wii U's, so he's limited to playing against strangers online.
He got tired of playing 4 for all item matches with Brawl online, so now he wants something more serious.
He doesn't want to get ****ed over by Pokemon on Spear Pillar, or get hit by a Shy Guy driving a car. He wants a flat service that is just him and some other stranger.
Luckily now he gets that option.

The EVO/competitive/tournament/etc. player is different.
They always want a 1 on 1, no bull**** match.
That's all they do everyday.
They practice to get better. They practice to win tournaments. They practice to travel to fight the best players in the country.
They know every technique, ones that the average joe will never hear of.
Sure they can compete against their friends at home for fun, but that's not where they thrive.
They thrive under the pressure in the immense community.
This is when they pour their heart and soul into the match to win.
There is actually a prize, aside from just glory.
They get money, fame, and a future.
A chance to continue to work their way up the rankings of the best Smash Bros. players in the world.
They can't remember the last time they've played someone who didn't know how to wavedash.
Meanwhile average joe has never heard of it.
These players don't want to be tied down just to Final Destination.
They have gotten over the cliche that Final Destination is the place to go for 1 v 1s.
But average joe hasn't, it's still his #1 choice.
These players want options, variety, carefully selected stages that are fair.
Options to choose and the ability ban certain stages.
They want to set their own rules. Best 2 out of 3, stock.
They want and NEED a lot more than just Final Destination to keep their interest.

Sakurai knows this.
Everyone at Nintendo knows this.
It's impossible for you to not be aware of such a huge community for your own game.

Sakurai himself doesn't really deal much with that community for whatever reason.
So he made this mode for the average joe in mind.
Because he knows EVO isn't the only place where people play competitively.




@ Chimera sure technically I used the denotative meaning of the word "competitive" in a way that contradicted itself. But I think I already made it clear in the first post what I meant, and everyone else understood.

If you are still going to argue after this about the literal meaning of the word "competitive" than you are too stubborn for your own good. You would rather see Smash 4 delayed 3 years than admit that in a connotative way, you are wrong.

Please just stop posting. Your generalizations are extremely offensive. Generalizations and nonsensically biased comparisons like:
Your definition of casual:

The average joe who goes to work, comes home, has a beer, and wants to unwind and play a few matches before he watches Netflix.

And Competitive:

That's all they do everyday.

These offensive generalizations are just stupid, and have no place here. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and decided to post a thread because you had a kneejerk reaction to a comment. Again, just stop posting.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Please just stop posting. Your generalizations are extremely offensive. Generalizations and nonsensically biased comparisons like:
Your definition of casual:


And Competitive:


These offensive generalizations are just stupid, and have no place here. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and decided to post a thread because you had a kneejerk reaction to a comment. Again, just stop posting.

Well, to be fair his generalization of casuals fits me pretty well. And his generalization of the pro players or hardcore competitives, based on what I've seen and heard here, doesn't seem that off the mark.

 

[pizzapie7]

Please just stop posting. Your generalizations are extremely offensive. Generalizations and nonsensically biased comparisons like:
Your definition of casual:


And Competitive:


These offensive generalizations are just stupid, and have no place here. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and decided to post a thread because you had a kneejerk reaction to a comment. Again, just stop posting.

You've been equivocating his usage of competitive this entire thread lol. You should just stop posting.

 

[JabbatheHutt]

I don't give a crap about the competitive community. Maybe its just me, but casual ftw

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I don't give a crap about the competitive community. Maybe its just me, but casual ftw

Except you aren't casual.

 

[Chimera]

You've been equivocating his usage of competitive this entire thread lol. You should just stop posting.

He's been using the word "competitive" in a manner that is incorrect, and continues to make terrible generalizations because he got upset about a comment. So thanks for the advice, but I'll pass.

Edit: I take it back, I will take the advice of not posting. I'd rather not continue arguing in circles. You know, gotta practice smash for the next 24 hours and all.

 

[pizzapie7]

He's been using the word "competitive" in a manner that is incorrect, and continues to make terrible generalizations because he got upset about a comment. So thanks for the advice, but I'll pass.

When everyone but you understands his definition of the word, he's clearly not using it in a manner that's incorrect. Language is fluid, his use of competitive is valid because everybody (but you, apparently) understood clearly what he was describing.

 

[Chimera]

When everyone but you understands his definition of the word, he's clearly not using it in a manner that's incorrect. Language is fluid, his use of competitive is valid because everybody (but you, apparently) understood clearly what he was describing.

I understood his definition just fine. I'm saying his narrow definition is condescending, petty, and incorrect. There is a difference. And accepting his definition as he describes it, the topic is just a whiney rant. So there's no real good way to describe the topic. You can PM me if you have anything else you want to say. I'm done here.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Well, now that that is sorted out, is there really anything more to say? I think it's pretty clear what the purpose of for glory is at this point. If you still don't like, go make some friends or use your current ones and kick their asses on Battlefield and Town and City.

 

[JabbatheHutt]

Except you aren't casual.

This is true, Im Fabulous like a valley girl.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

This is true, Im Fabulous like a valley girl.

Like, so am I, girlfriend. Like, Fabulously casual.

 

[JabbatheHutt]

Like, so am I, girlfriend. Like, Fabulously casual.

Gurl thats so fantatsic. You're nails are so awesome by the way.

Casual is sooo much cuter than those Competitive Jocks. ohemjay

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Gurl thats so fantatsic. You're nails are so awesome by the way.

Casual is sooo much cuter than those Competitive Jocks. ohemjay

Like, totally. So much work. It's not, like, attractive. At all. Ugh, just, like, play For Glory or For Like Fun or something. Or shoes. Play For Shoes.

 

[Chiroz]

This is true, Im Fabulous like a valley girl.

I think he might be getting at the fact that anyone who spends their time posting opinions about an arbitrary topic in a video game forum isn't very "casual" about said video game at all.



Anyways this topic has run most of its course.

I think we can all agree that For Glory wasn't made for the "Smashboards" community (or any other "tournament" community for that matter). It was made for the semi-casual competitive players who just want to play 1v1 without items and if given a choice they would have picked FD anyways.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

He's been using the word "competitive" in a manner that is incorrect, and continues to make terrible generalizations because he got upset about a comment. So thanks for the advice, but I'll pass.

Edit: I take it back, I will take the advice of not posting. I'd rather not continue arguing in circles. You know, gotta practice smash for the next 24 hours and all.

I really hope for humanity's sake that you are just really committed to trying to get me to snap and say something bad.
Because there cannot be a human being so dense, self absorbed, blind, and straight up ignorant as you are acting right now.
I just refuse to believe any human being right in their mind would still be arguing on this subject.
I have even admitted to the denotative meaning of the word "competitive" causing contradiction to my post.
But I cannot continue to try and hammer the notion into your god damn mind that DENOTATIVE and CONNOTATIVE are two completely different ****ing meanings of a word.

You literally have not read anything myself or any others in this thread have said.
You continue to stick to the same stupid argument about the literal meaning of the word "competitive" even when I flat out told you technically you are correct.

You continue to get "offended" by accurate generalizations.
How hell can anyone possibly be offended by my definition of a casual player?
Sure competitive players don't literally play 24/7, but they do play a **** load. How else are they supposed to get good at the ****ing game if they don't play a lot of it?
If you are offended by my generalizations, you really have some pretty thin skin for a guy with such a thick skull.

You are literally adding nothing to the discussion by sticking to your one argument you can come up with.

I'll give you this:
You won. When I say "competitive" and you take it as a denotative meaning of the word, sure it contradicts itself.
But if you can agree that as a connotation, which everyone else on this forum took it as, makes sense, then I will know you are a real genuine human being.
Because right now I can't even fathom how someone like you could exist.

You are the worst person I have ever met on the internet.
Because any other sensible person takes the win when the other flat out says "you were right."
But here you are. Still going on about denotative meanings.

You better get used to For Glory mode, because nobody in their right minds would want to be in the same room with you.


There.
You got your ****ing wish.
I finally broke.
You win.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Yeah, I think we're done here.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I think he might be getting at the fact that anyone who spends their time posting opinions about an arbitrary topic in a video game forum isn't very "casual" about said video game at all.

That is exactly what I'm saying.

Sup Nick.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Well, if that's the case then I have no idea what I am.

 

[JediLink]

We CAN choose Temple in tournaments if both players agree on it. It's legal to do that. But do we?

Options mean nothing if the other option is something people don't choose.

And you just missed the point entirely. Let me try to make it more clear.
"Who was For Glory designed for?"
"Sakurai made it a 1v1 only mode, therefore it must have be designed with 1v1 players in mind."
The problem is that the initial premise is untrue, and therefore doesn't lead to the conclusion you say it does.
And by the way, I saw Temple played at a tournament only about a week ago.

It's FD only because yadda yadda yadda balance reasons blah blah blah consistent stage selection yackity yack yack not dealing with stage legality.

You guys weren't listening anyway. It's going to be fun when FD is declared the most neutral stage.

I know what you're talking about, man. You bring this up in every single thread. However, I daresay that if the game is balanced around FD, that would be a worse reality than BF being the most neutral but For Glory still being FD only. Platforms are a big part of what separates Smash from other fighting games. Stripping that out will only homogenize it, as well as perpetuate the unfortunate No Items Fox only stereotype.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Well, if that's the case then I have no idea what I am.

You're hardcore, just not in the sense one would typically be perceived as "hardcore" on this forum.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

You're hardcore, just not in the sense one would typically be perceived as "hardcore" on this forum.

Okay, I needed that laugh. Thank you.

 

[Greda]

I finally broke.
You win.

This thread looks like it's going to get off topic (it already has) and just cause more wars.

Waiting for this to get closed already.

---

On an off-topic note, how many of you are actually going to use For Glory just for fun or casually? We keep talking about competitive players for this, but I'm curious.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

This thread looks like it's going to get off topic (it already has) and just cause more wars.

Waiting for this to get closed already.

---

On an off-topic note, how many of you are actually going to use For Glory just for fun or casually? We keep talking about competitive players for this, but I'm curious.

I will be using it to compete for fun.

That comment probably set back the progress of this thread by a few pages.

 

[Senario]

This thread looks like it's going to get off topic (it already has) and just cause more wars.

Waiting for this to get closed already.

---

On an off-topic note, how many of you are actually going to use For Glory just for fun or casually? We keep talking about competitive players for this, but I'm curious.

Eeeeeeh fun. Competitive matches still will deal with the whole stage picking stuff and banning and all that good stuff.

 

[Chiroz]

You're hardcore, just not in the sense one would typically be perceived as "hardcore" on this forum.

Yea, EPF has it right.

I think the problem stems from people overgeneralizing "hardcore" and "casuals" or using them in a wrong manner. Anyone who actively reads or posts in these forums or any other fan forums is basically a "hardcore" player (at least a "hardcore" smash player), even if he doesn't play by tournament rules.

The greatest problem is we normally classify players as "hardcore" only by their skill and use the term "competitive" to describe them. This isn't technically correct. As has been expressed, anyone can be competitive, even casuals. Hardcore players don't have to be competitive by law either. Also, you can be extremely competitive and still suck at the game and, in the same way, you can be hardcore die-hard fan of the game and still be extremely bad at it.

In conclusion the terms "competitive" and "hardcore" shouldn't be considered synonyms of skill or social status to/in the game, they should be synonyms of a player's mindset and commitment toward the game.




Sup Zenas.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

This thread looks like it's going to get off topic (it already has) and just cause more wars.

Waiting for this to get closed already.

---

On an off-topic note, how many of you are actually going to use For Glory just for fun or casually? We keep talking about competitive players for this, but I'm curious.

I will. That's how I roll in Smash.

 

[κomıc]

My concern are people on that dated 1995 America Online dial-up connection that I see these days playing on 3DS, Wii U and PS4. Get with the times and stop using a potato to power your internet.

Carrots are the better option if you're that cheap. SMH.