For anyone questioning why everyone flies so far after getting hit.

[Katy Parry]

Very possible solution. Respectable even.

But it doesn't change how Kirby can kill ZSS at sub 70% with an up throw on the lower platforms of BF and then attempt it again on the top platform at 90% and not kill.

It's also been stated, but not proved, that DK's up tilt was able to kill at 40%.

The specifics of this kill is not certain however. It could've been a stage spike, ceiling/wall spike.

I was just bringing up for the sake of Bowsers move. Maybe the KB increases the father he drops. Makes sense to me.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I'm a little indifferent towards that property since I decided Bowser would be my main ever since the first trailer.

But I'm not trying to disprove you through my bias

Since both players have control over the Flying Slam(at least in Brawl, when I did it I didn't really ask or notice if my opponent had control) depending on percent the move could end up being garbage since your opponent can just aim for the closest landing point.

 

[SuperDS64]

Interesting, but it may also bring up another question.

Is knockback now dynamic to the situation (stock/time) or is it still just an algorithm based on percentage.

I really hope not, or else it will be come like Mario Kart's rubber-banding(?).

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Wow, you're absolutely right. I never noticed that.
I just looked it up myself:

This is enough to make me inclined to agree with you.
Direct on the left, E3 on the right.

What I find odd here is that in the direct Megaman.EXE is emotionless while in the demo he isn't. But of course another thing to note about the direct is that the fairy bottle is functional there and the Ore Club has gust sounds (from my experience it was just playing the star rod effects in the demo). I think I agree that this build was pre-direct.

 

[ImaClubYou]

One of GameXplain's videos features Bowser killing Fox off the top with his Down B on the Coliseum at 43%.

 

[Katy Parry]

What I find odd here is that in the direct Megaman.EXE is emotionless while in the demo he isn't. But of course another thing to note about the direct is that the fairy bottle is functional there and the Ore Club has gust sounds (from my experience it was just playing the star rod effects in the demo). I think I agree that this build was pre-direct.

I think the Direct was more of a concept/CGI where the E3 Demo is just him in the actual game, and I think that's what they're gonna keep.

 

[Warchamp7]

Interesting, but it may also bring up another question.

Is knockback now dynamic to the situation (stock/time) or is it still just an algorithm based on percentage.

I really hope not, or else it will be come like Mario Kart's rubber-banding(?).

This was a somewhat feasible thought that scared me so I went through the videos.

Watching the first video, Bowser does the throw and doesn't send Greninja very far. At that point in the match, Greninja was up 3 points on Bowser and they end up tied in points at the end (Sudden Death). Greninja big lead, didn't go far.

Second video, Bowser does the throw and kills Greninja. At that point in the match, their scores were tied.

Myth thankfully busted.

 

[SuperDS64]

This was a somewhat feasible thought that scared me so I went through the videos.

Watching the first video, Bowser does the throw and doesn't send Greninja very far. At that point in the match, Greninja was up 3 points on Bowser and they end up tied in points at the end (Sudden Death). Greninja big lead, didn't go far.

Second video, Bowser does the throw and kills Greninja. At that point in the match, their scores were tied.

Myth thankfully busted.

Oh thank god. Thanks for testing that.

 

[Pazzo.]

As expected, the game is still unfinished... maybe this will stave off the haters.

 

[Hong]

The e3 forum is no more, but this thread shall live! ( ' ▽ ')/

As expected, the game is still unfinished... maybe this will stave off the haters.

The thing is, a demo build compiled of selective assets would be even worse than the build they operated on at the time it was compiled. All things can go wrong in the assembly process. Unless they've really been snoozing since March all the way until release, I think the overall tuning will be drastically improved.

 

[mygamecube]

As I've been telling countless people, a demo is an early build of a game that is allowed to be deemed playable.

What was at E3 and distributed at Best Buys across the nation was simply an unfinished game. People jumping the gun saying "well it's Brawl 2.0, looks like I'm passing on this Smash" are completely missing the fact that the game is simply not done yet. Both versions.

A better example would be the E for All demo of Brawl. It is well documented that the game played entirely different than the finished product, and that demo was a few months before the final version of Brawl.

Let's wait until the final product before passing judgement.

 

[ImaClubYou]

As I've been telling countless people, a demo is an early build of a game that is allowed to be deemed playable.

What was at E3 and distributed at Best Buys across the nation was simply an unfinished game. People jumping the gun saying "well it's Brawl 2.0, looks like I'm passing on this Smash" are completely missing the fact that the game is simply not done yet. Both versions.

A better example would be the E for All demo of Brawl. It is well documented that the game played entirely different than the finished product, and that demo was a few months before the final version of Brawl.

Let's wait until the final product before passing judgement.

Agreed.

Though I'm hoping you aren't directing that statement towards anyone in here, since we're all on the same page(and hopefully read the OP).

The statement is a little bit shrouded in who it really is directed to or if you're just making a general statement.

 

[mygamecube]

Agreed.

Though I'm hoping you aren't directing that statement towards anyone in here, since we're all on the same page(and hopefully read the OP).

The statement is a little bit shrouded in who it really is directed to or if you're just making a general statement.

It's generalized. I'm talking to no one in particular in this thread, haha.

 

[Impmacaque]

As I've been telling countless people, a demo is an early build of a game that is allowed to be deemed playable.

What was at E3 and distributed at Best Buys across the nation was simply an unfinished game. People jumping the gun saying "well it's Brawl 2.0, looks like I'm passing on this Smash" are completely missing the fact that the game is simply not done yet. Both versions.

A better example would be the E for All demo of Brawl. It is well documented that the game played entirely different than the finished product, and that demo was a few months before the final version of Brawl.

Let's wait until the final product before passing judgement.

If you wait until the final product to voice your concerns, it will be too late for them to mean anything. The entire point of criticizing the games many flaws is in the hopes that they can be changed before the game is finalized for release.

A demo can tell you plenty about the trajectory of a game's design. If it feels like Brawl 2.0 in the demo, that's because the game had been built from the ground up to play like brawl 2.0, and you'd be foolish to expect that the finished product will be somehow completely different from the demo you played. There may be some tweaks in the few months before release, sure, but by-and-large the major game mechanics and game physics will largely be unchanged unless the development team feels a need to change them.

 

[mygamecube]

If you wait until the final product to voice your concerns, it will be too late for them to mean anything. The entire point of criticizing the games many flaws is in the hopes that they can be changed before the game is finalized for release.

A demo can tell you plenty about the trajectory of a game's design. If it feels like Brawl 2.0 in the demo, that's because the game had been built from the ground up to play like brawl 2.0, and you'd be foolish to expect that the finished product will be somehow completely different from the demo you played. There may be some tweaks in the few months before release, sure, but by-in-large the major game mechanics and game physics will largely be unchanged unless the development team feels a need to change them.

I agree with all the points you bring up, and it's good that Nintendo reps were taking feedback for good measure. But I feel that with Smash 4's demo being an earlier build of the game (and we're talking pre-Direct early) it's a little silly to be condemning the game at this juncture.

Again, I bring up the Brawl E for All demo. I wish I can remember the source of proof but I remember hearing that the game played shockingly similar to Melee. Now, as I know, there are lot of different developers between the Smash Bros. games, so it's not exactly going to play out the same way past developments have gone, but if the E for All Demo is any indication, the parallels match up almost too perfect.

Smash 4 demo seems like a build up directly from Brawl, but will end up being technically different. That seems like a more hopeful direction.

 

[Impmacaque]

I agree with all the points you bring up, and it's good that Nintendo reps were taking feedback for good measure. But I feel that with Smash 4's demo being an earlier build of the game (and we're talking pre-Direct early) it's a little silly to be condemning the game at this juncture.

Again, I bring up the Brawl E for All demo. I wish I can remember the source of proof but I remember hearing that the game played shockingly similar to Melee. Now, as I know, there are lot of different developers between the Smash Bros. games, so it's not exactly going to play out the same way past developments have gone, but if the E for All Demo is any indication, the parallels match up almost too perfect.

Smash 4 demo seems like a build up directly from Brawl, but will end up being technically different. That seems like a more hopeful direction.

I don't mean this as a personal insult, but I would really need a source in order to take your word on the Brawl demo. Sakurai's own statements express regret for making Melee too fast and too mechanically complex, and I would find it unlikely that Brawl approximated Melee at any point in its development.

Not to say that it isn't possible, just that it would contradict Sakurai's own words with regards to Brawl's development.

 

[mygamecube]

I don't mean this as a personal insult, but I would really need a source in order to take your word on the Brawl demo. Sakurai's own statements express regret for making Melee too fast and too mechanically complex, and I would find it unlikely that Brawl approximated Melee at any point in its development.

I don't think it was anything speed wise, but some of the mechanics present in that demo felt more Melee-esque apparently. (Minus L cancel, wavedash)

I swear I read it somewhere though, I'm not crazy. I just can't remember the source.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I don't think it was anything speed wise, but some of the mechanics present in that demo felt more Melee-esque apparently. (Minus L cancel, wavedash)

I swear I read it somewhere though, I'm not crazy. I just can't remember the source.

There was talk of it in many, many, many threads about Brawl being similar to Melee during the demo days and I've read some similar posts in different forums and YouTube.

I know a link was posted somewhere, but I can't find it, lol.

 

[Rhus]

This is very interesting, and means I wasn't losing it when watching some of the demo matches and noticing inconsistency with knockback.

The best example I saw is during the invitational, Fox's Usmash was struggling to kill Megaman (a couple times) at over 115%, but almost killed Kirby off the top during the treehouse event at 64% and Marth during the invitational at I think around 75%.

I guess I wasn't just completely over analysing things.

 

[StarshipGroove]

I agree with all the points you bring up, and it's good that Nintendo reps were taking feedback for good measure. But I feel that with Smash 4's demo being an earlier build of the game (and we're talking pre-Direct early) it's a little silly to be condemning the game at this juncture.

Again, I bring up the Brawl E for All demo. I wish I can remember the source of proof but I remember hearing that the game played shockingly similar to Melee. Now, as I know, there are lot of different developers between the Smash Bros. games, so it's not exactly going to play out the same way past developments have gone, but if the E for All Demo is any indication, the parallels match up almost too perfect.

The E for All builds played almost exactly like Brawl, everyone who played them claimed that Brawl would be different from Melee but still competitive, and people believed that tripping, aerials cancelling out of fast fall and airdodging out of attacks were new techs because of mass hype.

Want proof? Watch the E for All matches. No hitstun, floatiness, slowness and no techniques,

What we are seeing with the demos here is the game we're gonna get. But that's not a bad thing, SSB Wii U looks already better than Brawl in the demos at least.

Unless if Sakurai implemented critical attacks or random knockback on moves. In that case SSB 4 = Straight into the trash

 

[Exaggeratedhonesty]

Was the 3DS version even this buggy? I'm sure the 3DS version would be the game that's closer to the final product.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

Any ideas about what a "critical hit" bonus is? I hope it's not some random double-knockback attack because that would interfere drastically with the fairness of the game in the same way that tripping did.

Sorry if it's been covered already.

Edit - And while this is an amiibo screen, I'm pretty sure those upgrades are the same ones that playable characters can equip.

 

[Lozjam]

Any ideas about what a "critical hit" bonus is? I hope it's not some random double-knockback attack because that would interfere drastically with the fairness of the game in the same way that tripping did.

Sorry if it's been covered already.

Edit - And while this is an amiibo screen, I'm pretty sure those upgrades are the same ones that playable characters can equip.

Good lord if it's random....... That would be a little detrimental, but the way I see it. Pokemon has critical hits yet manages to be very competitive. But I think it would be things like sweet spots, maybe characters have one detrimental spot that cause critical hits as well. We will find out come September.

 

[The Curious Volnutt]

Any ideas about what a "critical hit" bonus is? I hope it's not some random double-knockback attack because that would interfere drastically with the fairness of the game in the same way that tripping did.

Sorry if it's been covered already.

Edit - And while this is an amiibo screen, I'm pretty sure those upgrades are the same ones that playable characters can equip.

Feed equipment. Feed him what? Some spaghetti and meatba- *shot*

 

[ChikoLad]

The E for All builds played almost exactly like Brawl, everyone who played them claimed that Brawl would be different from Melee but still competitive, and people believed that tripping, aerials cancelling out of fast fall and airdodging out of attacks were new techs because of mass hype.

Want proof? Watch the E for All matches. No hitstun, floatiness, slowness and no techniques,

What we are seeing with the demos here is the game we're gonna get. But that's not a bad thing, SSB Wii U looks already better than Brawl in the demos at least.

Unless if Sakurai implemented critical attacks or random knockback on moves. In that case SSB 4 = Straight into the trash

The thing about the Brawl demo is that it can be deduced as much closer to Final Build than the Smash 4. Sonic was a last minute addition to Brawl - yet, he's in Brawl's E for All demo. Plus, that demo was available October 18th, 2007. The game released in Japan on January 31st, 2008, which is a pretty small gap.

While the game came out much later elsewhere, that's only for localisation reasons, and probably had something to do with getting online play up and running in the West. The game itself was finished for the Japanese release.

 

[DraginHikari]

The thing with the E for All demo compared to the one we got at E3 is I don't remember Sakurai and the other saying that the game is still under development to the point of driving the point into the ground. You generally don't make that so apparent unless you know there are things you are still working on that couldn't be included in the demo build. Which makes me think we're dealing with a different situation.

 

[SmashWolf]

Looks like the rumor about the E3 build being a January build was correct....

So this means Sakurai's current demo is like 6 development months ahead of the E3 build! That really does give one alot of hope. With a few extra months more time, and having taken criticism, plus some footage from pro's playing their game....if Sakurai stays true to his word, we should get a fine game. I have faith in Smash 4.

And hey, if something does go horribly Metaknight-like wrong, they'll be able to patch things up this time.

 

[D-idara]

The E for All builds played almost exactly like Brawl, everyone who played them claimed that Brawl would be different from Melee but still competitive, and people believed that tripping, aerials cancelling out of fast fall and airdodging out of attacks were new techs because of mass hype.

Want proof? Watch the E for All matches. No hitstun, floatiness, slowness and no techniques,

What we are seeing with the demos here is the game we're gonna get. But that's not a bad thing, SSB Wii U looks already better than Brawl in the demos at least.

Unless if Sakurai implemented critical attacks or random knockback on moves. In that case SSB 4 = Straight into the trash

Sorry to burst your hate-bubble, but this Demo was from before the Direct, buddy.

 

[Calibrate]

About the randomized knockback,
Does nobody else kind of worry that knockback having a random variance maybe intentional?

If that's the case, then I seriously will have lost all of my faith in Sakurai.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Sorry to burst your hate-bubble, but this Demo was from before the Direct, buddy.

DAMNIT! Now I need to find some new excuse for me to hate the game! Curse you d-idara!

No actually I'm happy to hear that build was from january, no hate from me.
I just wanted to correct mygamecube about the Brawl demos playing like Melee

 

[D-idara]

DAMNIT! Now I need to find some new excuse for me to hate the game! Curse you d-idara!

No actually I'm happy to hear that build was from january, no hate from me.
I just wanted to correct mygamecube about the Brawl demos playing like Melee

Oh, well, the early Brawl demos played like Melee! :D
I really doubt knockback scaling will become random, if Sakurai removed random tripping, why would he add that? It also goes againist the very concept of the series, build up your opponent's damage meter so you can launch them farther and farther until you achieve a ring-out.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

Any ideas about what a "critical hit" bonus is? I hope it's not some random double-knockback attack because that would interfere drastically with the fairness of the game in the same way that tripping did.

Sorry if it's been covered already.

Edit - And while this is an amiibo screen, I'm pretty sure those upgrades are the same ones that playable characters can equip.

Wow I never realized that before. Wonder what it means.

 

[Coonce]

Any ideas about what a "critical hit" bonus is? I hope it's not some random double-knockback attack because that would interfere drastically with the fairness of the game in the same way that tripping did.

Sorry if it's been covered already.

Edit - And while this is an amiibo screen, I'm pretty sure those upgrades are the same ones that playable characters can equip.

Maybe critical hits are sweet spots? So this would maybe improve damage and knockback on something like Marth's tipper.

On a side note...an explosion when you perfect shield sounds friggin' rad.

 

[Shaya]

And hey, if something does go horribly Metaknight-like wrong, they'll be able to patch things up this time.

The Zero Suit Samus nerfs could not come any faster.

 

[Tristan_win]

The Zero Suit Samus nerfs could not come any faster.

..But is Zss worthy of a nerf? I didn't study the videos deeply but she looked to be just a bit weaker then her Brawl version (only due to lack of grab combo game) and the Kirby vs Zss match up has never been really even so wouldn't a nerf be a bit unjust?

 

[Shaya]

We've gotten the opportunity to see a lot more videos than just the E3 tournament.

 

[LancerStaff]

Personally, I think ZSS's range-game hasn't been nerfed because it isn't projectile-based like everybody else's. ZSS probably needs a nerf, but I wouldn't do anything major until I see more.

 

[Venks]

It seems knockback/knockback scaling is not yet official to the game.

There are many many examples of this in other matches, some may remember Grand Finals at the invitational where Hungrybox(Kirby) killed Zero Suit Samus(ZeRo) at 90% with an up throw but lived a different up throw at over 100% on the top platform.

You might think that on the first look, but actually this is consistent with Brawl. On Kirby's second to last life he down throws three times, but only up throws once. The move KOs.
On Kirby's last life he up throws three times. Diminishing returns reduce the potency of the knock back. Give it a rewatch and count the throws.

I played the demo myself at Oz Comic Con and noticed a lot of consistent results with the knock back. I don't think it's been finalized for every character, but the results are not as random as everyone is making it out to be. Playing as Little Mac I was able to predict every single time my up smash would land a KO based off of percentage. The one time I was off was due to the hit being on Link. The Hyrulian Warrior is REALLY heavy and requires an additional 20% compared to most of the cast. With that in mind I consitently KO'd Link with my up smash every single time after that.

 

[ImaClubYou]

You might think that on the first look, but actually this is consistent with Brawl. On Kirby's second to last life he down throws three times, but only up throws once. The move KOs.
On Kirby's last life he up throws three times. Diminishing returns reduce the potency of the knock back. Give it a rewatch and count the throws.

I played the demo myself at Oz Comic Con and noticed a lot of consistent results with the knock back. I don't think it's been finalized for every character, but the results are not as random as everyone is making it out to be. Playing as Little Mac I was able to predict every single time my up smash would land a KO based off of percentage. The one time I was off was due to the hit being on Link. The Hyrulian Warrior is REALLY heavy and requires an additional 20% compared to most of the cast. With that in mind I consitently KO'd Link with my up smash every single time after that.

Sure, but it doesn't explain why 2 fresh Flying Slams had absolutely different knockback.

 

[Venks]

Sure, but it doesn't explain why 2 fresh Flying Slams had absolutely different knockback.

Actually I found these results to be the same for me as well. When I upSmash a Greninja with Little Mac at 96% he surprisingly didn't go very far, however at 102% he would be KO'd. Like I was saying in my last post all characters except for heavy weights get knocked out by LM's upSmash at 100% or higher. But anything lower then that does not work.

This is completely consistent with results. I played around 140 matches over 14 hours. I won the majority of my matches with three to six KOs. The main reason I was winning so much was because of my understanding of KO percentages. 100% or over was a guaranteed KO without any doubts. Knock back isn't random, small differences in percentages have a larger effect in this game. Certain thresholds have to be met.