Flow vs optimization

[kupo15]

Ok, it is clear that we are split on this issue in regards to character and the gravity settings. People thinking it should be more or less float.

Some people want to optimize the characters by making the gravity really conservative. Wolf for example is floatier than he was in vbrawl. We also have to look at ppl like ganon and dk who have not changed from their vbrawl setting to preserve their thunderstomp and SH double bair. (I think some changes in gravity can still keep this)

The trade off is the flow of the game. if you keep characters really floaty, it tends to go away from the "fun speed activate"

Another option is to make things heavier (faster jump speed will counter act the heavier feel a bit) and accept that some characters may lose certain things but don't forget that they still play relatively the same and have more to offer AND flow better. B2 for example is a kickass code set and it flows really well and it is fast.

So what are we after? Do we want to have characters play at their absolute best even if it means making them even more floaty than they were before which also hurts the speed of the game, or will we accept certain changes and settle for them being pretty darn good while having excellent flow?

My vote goes to the latter. I think we need to have more fun, speed activate and flow to the game then what necessarily "better" for the characters. I can't even think of how being really floaty is better for the characters anyway. Why double bair in a sh when you have hitstun to touch down and perform another?

I think flow and speed is more important as long as the side effects are really negative. B2 did an excellent job in balancing out this flow vs optimization and I think we need to keep this mind set in place


EDIT: All characters should feel as good as falcon in their own way and when you have characters who have not changed or is even more floaty than before, I don't see how that benefits the game's flow and speed in any way

 

[shanus]

This is an important post, but at the same time I don't think we should make the decision. Now that people like Chibo, NC-Echo, and Foxy are hosting tournaments, I think we really need to keep an ear to what the community wants from this project. We get alot of mixed feelings here while I think things are perfect and so do some others, its a game for a lot of players and it needs to be what they want. However, from what Ive observed in the IRC and the Plussery thread so far, most people seem to be enjoying the characters metagame as present. I say lets not treat our current sets as an ends all decision. These are starter points. I think our new focus should be on how to get this game the exposure it needs and the tournaments it deserves.

 

[Almas]

A while ago I would have said that the flow of the game was a very important thing to focus on. But recent experiences are beginning to make me think otherwise.

Drastic gravity changes etc. tend to create many little quirks and flaws we don't want, such as making Sonic's jablocks even easier to pull off, or creating combos which are ridiculously powerful and easy for the hitstun setings. We risk digging a hole of things that must be made, must be fixed, such that we always need another code to make sure the game remains balanced.

I think at times the essence of what Brawl could be is very intruiging - the idea of a game built around counterpicks and the heavy mindgames of it's predecessors works very well. For example - Captain Falcon gets owned by people with priority or disjointedness. We shouldn't be trying to fix things like that, but rather rejoice in it. The decreased technical skill intensity of Brawl allows for players to master several characters at once, and this should be a necessary component of a succesful player. Trying to increase the intensity of the game just by speeding it up seems somewhat alien. We must consider that many slow moves (D³s smashes, Falcon Punch etc.) are worthless enough as it is, and it seems we may never be able to truly change the time they come out. By increasing the speed of the game you make them even more worthless as moves.

I'm all for mechanics which generally and universally add to gameplay, and facilitate better strategic options for mindgames. But just ramping up settings to make the game feel faster is just too alien for the system. Our objective should be trying to cluster the tiers as effectively as possible, and ensure that every character has other characters that they can counterpick, or be counterpicked by.

That said I wouldn't mind a small increase in the speed, but the emphasis is most notably on small.

 

[kupo15]

I personally feel that we should use the b2 character settings for the tourney starting place. Its no doubt how solid that code set was with those changes. We should see if its truely that heavy for certain characters because with this current settings, most characters and harder to combo (the ones whose values didn't really change) and you have characters like falcon who is easier comboed because he is heavier.

I say we present beta 2's character values with some of b3's additions to the tourney scene