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Flavorless Mafia II: Gave over. Who won?

~ Gheb ~

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It's just not possible for me to take Zen serious. The amount of flip-flopping makes it impossible to know whether he is for real this time or if he's just going to change his mind completely on the next page. One time Bardull is definitely town, the next IRL day he's scum because he doesn't get to post and moves from "town" to "55% scum" or something. First he thinks I'm scummy, then leaning town and then back to "hey guys lynch Gheb with me" - just after admitting a few posts ago that I'm correct about him being wrong more often than right on average.

If you think that slot deserves any pro-town credit for his play you're completely insane.

mac needs to go
Why?

soup probably needs to go unless i missed something important
Why?

:059:
 

~ Gheb ~

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I'm willing to buy the latter reasoning I guess but your reads aren't good either.

:059:
 

~ Gheb ~

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Case in point: you say Mac and soup have to go because the former has bad reads and the latter hasn't hunted scum. Fine.

Then explain to me why you're so unwilling to lynch Ryker when he has neither presented good reads nor truly attempted to find scum. That still doesn't add up. Especially since you have Maven, who has done more than Ryker - perhaps insignificantly so but still - as your secondary lynch choice. That adds up to you well enough to happy with your reads? At this point I feel very much justified in calling your reads bad.

:059:
 

Vult Redux

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Then explain to me why you're so unwilling to lynch Ryker when he has neither presented good reads nor truly attempted to find scum. That still doesn't add up. Especially since you have Maven, who has done more than Ryker - perhaps insignificantly so but still - as your secondary lynch choice. That adds up to you well enough to happy with your reads? At this point I feel very much justified in calling your reads bad.
im pretty sure he has scumhunted?

he's been present much more than eg bardull/soup. fluctuates like ryu, but i remember him asking questions whereas i remember there was a notable period of time where ryu was just answering things.

idk i'll reread him tomorrow but like mac's point about ryker's rvs whatever stuff was just so silly to me and i'm surprised you bought into it
 

Xivii

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We should get the lynch candidate to L-1 now with a hammer ready so we can have time to switch if they claim Mason.

#HBC | Ryker #HBC | Ryker #HBC | Red Ryu #HBC | Red Ryu

Vote: Gheb

@#HBC | Mac I know you have a town read on Gheb for some reason, but if you vote him with me, I swear I will give you my vote tomorrow if I'm wrong. I know you what that double vote boi.
 

Xivii

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wow there are too many typos I'm sorry guys.

in short bardull is out of his mind but might be town, zen is tentatively still on my good side, gheb is okay but losing points, mac needs to go, soup probably needs to go unless i missed something important, maven i like and dislike simultaneously, ryu bothers me a little bit but could get redemption and also there are bigger fish to fry
I really, really would have liked for you to look at soup deeper.
 

Xivii

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I'll try to show this once more, hopefully without Maven's interference this time around. Please read the bolded yellow lines. Any additional quotes and anything not bolded is just to give context to the chain of events.

Vote: Bardull
Votecount 1.4

Red Ryu
Mars™
Gheb: Red Ryu
Ryker: Bardull
Maven: Ryker
Bardull: Maven, Gheb, Vult Redux, Xivii (L-1)
Xivii:
Soup:
Vult Redux


Not voting:
soup, Mars™

Important Links:
Game links and Vote Counts

Notes:
Mars has replaced Darkpit.

*= Currently being replaced
**= V/LA

With 9 players, it takes 5 votes to lynch
The deadline for Day 1 is September 21, at 11:59 PM
.
Unvote

I hadn't actually read Bardull's / soup earlier when I made that vote. I like him. I think soup is a scummer still.
I feel stupid and contagious for it but I can't draw anything from the exchanges between soup, Bardull and Zen. It's like a giant, messy circle-jerk of nit-picking irrelevant points in hopes of getting something started but nobody dares to actually put out their neck over a point. Like, you guys should read your own posts froman outsider's position, it's completely ridiculous. Vult honestly isn't helping much either.

My contribution? At this point I honestly just hope that either #HBC | Ryker #HBC | Ryker or Maven89 Maven89 show up and drop a quick hammah on Bardull. That'd be like 10x more helpful than all this pointless brabbling.

:059:
To use Vult's words, The infamous post: Gheb calling for a quick hammer. I call this out, but Maven quickly appears in thread and starts attacking me for my Bardull vote.

Vote: Gheb
That's the most overtly malicious post that's been made so far. A genuine attempt at a quick lynch and continued attempt to stifle discussion. Gheb is scum.
Current Scum Probability Chart:

Gheb - 85%
Maven - ?
Mars - ?

soup - 55%
Bardull - 53%

Ryker - 45%
Ryu - 20%
Vult - 15 %

I would lynch any of those first three. Ryker should probably be in the null section and Bardull as a town lean, but I'm partially basing those two reads on their relation to Gheb so far.


---

soup, I really have no hidden agenda with my questions towards you. Throughout the game, I just want you to address your (apparent) inconsistencies and to address any actions that myself or others might take suspicion of. I want to get a better understanding of you and for my suspicions to be relieved.

Side note: I keep meaning to compliment you on how much you've improved since we've last played. Your posts in general are a lot more cool-headed and analytic. I enjoyed reading your posts in pyp a lot and I'm really glad to be playing with you again.



Does anyone have a problem with Bardull's #64? It seemed perfectly townie to me, his explanation made sense and nothing about it seemed scum. It just looked like a town player explaining his early game RVS and actions to people who were taking it all too seriously. I read him town for it and I'm surprised that Bardull was almost lynched.

Vote: Xivii



Well that's ****ing suspicious, especially considering Bardul was put to L-1 by the vote.

I don't like most of his content in between that vote and the following vote. It seems really small and not very relevant.



And then there is this. Gheb's post is pretty clear to me, he can't read what's going on and wants a flip to help him. Really selfish, sure, but that's Gheb's play most of the time. What I have trouble seeing is why Scum!Gheb or any scum player would openly post that if they were scum. I also have trouble believing Xivii really thinks this is scumGheb, especially not to 85% certainty that he gave him in the following post.

So right now I'm voting Xivii because I hate his recent content. I'm interested in seeing what Vult has to say on this.
Random thoughts before I disappear until Monday:

Zen - Disliked that he put Bardull at L-1, but do like that he backed off.

Maven - Essentially working off one post. Need to see more reads evolve.

Vult - I like him more than most of the thread. Is pushing to move things along.

Bardull - I actually like him, believe it or not. I don't think he's one anything to warrant a lynch.

Mars - Post, bruh. I got nothing.

Gheb - ^

Ruy - I've seen some posting but none of it reads as meaningful.

Soup - IGMEOY. You take a party pooper stance on things and are looking at Bardull who I have no problem with. What are your thoughts on Gheb right now?
Here I just want to show that there was discontent expressed with me putting Bardull at L-1. This is to give added context to Gheb's second line below.



Unvote Vote Red Ryu

Bardull's not a play toDay. Not sure why anybody'd put him at L-1.


:059:
Gheb suddenly makes a shift in his tone with regards to lynching Bardull. The "not sure why anybody'd put him at L-1" expresses that the idea of lynching Bardull would be ludicrous.

I'd like to point out again here that Gheb not specifically referring to me in this statement is extremely telling. I'm not sure how to explain it any further without going into the mess that Psychology is. I think it's something that you either get or you don't. If you don't get it, then ignore this, re-read the first two sentences above and go on to the next point.

He's not the play toDay. What more reasoning do you want to hear?

:059:
More clarification that he does not want Bardull lynched.


Vult Reduxe said:
not sure how i feel about recent posts; I'm not a fan of gheb #97 but I can't say it makes me hate him. ironically it actually does make him look more likely like a partner for Bardull.
.... you genuinely think gheb actually even remotely slightly at all a little bit wanted Burdull lynched??? :V
I got a better understanding of Soup's interactions but no read on him. Dislike Gheb. Like Zen. Ryker looks like catchup mode but his catchup mode seems slightly more town/productive than a scum catchup mode. Nothing on specific on Maven though it looks like we disagree and i guess that's not a good sign.

unvote; vote: gheb


Most of these conclusions - while I don't deny that they're likely accurate - aren't very strong and they fit each player's respective meta enough to make me think that one could've drawn them one way or another in a pretty much any given scenario. Soup often starts off nit-picking in the early game phase hoping to get something going. Oftentimes he gets lynched for it and he also got a bit of suspicion for it this time around. That's pretty null to me. Zen pushing directions also isn't new but I wanna take the opportunity to say that this is not necessarily a good thing. Not that I wanna discourage him but he has a tendency to be wrong on these things and, as in soup'd case, I don't think that's enough to give him pro-town credit for it.

The only somewhat conclusive info I think we got from the whole thing is that Bardull is likely town but that's mostly based on the fact that most of the accusations brought up against him have not been very strong at all.

Given how dominant their menage a trois has been I wanna say that it has been largely a waste of time. Most of the reads I get of from it are null with Bardull leaning null-town. I still think just hammering Bardull would've been worth the risk though apparently I'm the only one who thinks so [and supposedly I tried to "rescue" him and am his scmmbuddy nor or something].

...

I will give you credit though for your summary. I feel that post alone has more useful content in it than most of the posts we've had so far [which admittedly include mine].

:059:
THIS RIGHT HERE.

Gheb is reverse reversing his tone in regard to lynching Bardull. This is in his serious, non-fluff, back-and-forth with Ryu. This is absolutely contradictory to his previous tone. And his previous tone was completely contradictory to his original tone.

The reason why Gheb does this is because he is being pushed for two different reasons. He needs to appeal to Me, Ryu and others by making it appear that his hammer comment was not serious but rather just him trying to get something going. On the other hand, the third person pushing his wagon -- Vult -- is going him at on a different basis. As shown in the spoiler tags above, Vult is pushing him because he believes that Gheb was actually trying to derail the Bardull train and distance himself from Bardull at the same time.

Even though Bardull probably isn't Gheb's scum mate, it still did not look good for him. Vult believed it (or at least made it out as though he did) and that's all that matters. Gheb needed to show Vult that he was serious -- he wasn't derailing the Bardull wagon, he wanted him lynched!

Oh yes, this is despite the fact that Bardull was his only town read, which he states in the very same paragraph.
 

Xivii

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Part 2: Staged? I'll Show You Staged!

Plot Summary:

A man in a bear suit and the Egyptian God of Earth become best friends after realizing they both like to murder innocent villagers.


tl;dwrite

Order of Events:
  • Maven is absent from the game.
  • I call out Gheb scum.
  • Maven appears. Defends Gheb from call out. Attacks me for putting Bardull at L-1. In the very same post defends Gheb for wanting to genuinely lynch Bardull. Rather than me quoting it, scroll up, it's in the quote above.

  • Maven and Gheb have an awkward interaction that is never concluded.
  • Maven disappears.

  • I call out Gheb's contradictions.
  • Maven appears and attacks me for the contradictions not existing.
  • The contradictions exist. Maven is speaking nonsense.


Do you guys want to claim Masons so we can get the counter claim? Or should we just end it. Sorry if this has all come off a bit abrasive. I'm a little sleep drunk.
 

Vult Redux

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Zen I follow your case and I get it. I saw you talk about Gheb's flip-flopping earlier this game during my reread last night. I think your case has merit.

but you're avoiding my question (unless i missed it, in which case sorry) and i think it's important
 

Maven89

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Zen we already went through all of that...

I know I've been absent, I coast a lot on Day 1. Whenever I've attempted to drive early game discussion I always just end up confusing people and almost getting lynched. I've been popping up so much for Gheb because I feel I actually have insight into it, it's worth talking about and Gheb seems to be pushed Day 1 in every game. He's antagonistic and doesn't expand on his reads (most of the time), this makes him good mislynch material. I chose to defend Gheb because it seemed clear to me what he was saying, I still think it's clear. He didn't see why Bardull was put to L-1 but since he was he'd rather the guy die and we'd have a flip because all the bantering going on was pointless. I don't see how that is a contradiction at all or how you seem to have so much trouble understanding it. Everything else is you assigning motives based on feelings and nothing else. Don't play like J.

The "lie" for Zen I'm pretty sure was just grammar mistake. Zen used parenthesis incorrectly and put the subject of his sentence in them, then didn't use a comma. What apparently was meant to say "he even said #121, haha" said "he even said (#121) haha", which does not mean the same thing at all. I read his post correctly he just wrote it poorly. Even though I'm suspicious of Xivii I think he is telling the truth because I don't see why he would attempt to lie about it. I mentioned confusion over this in previous posts.

To see Xivii peace out for so long, only to come back when he's brought up as a lynch candidate, only to push Gheb again is troubling. For him to claim I was spouting nonsense even though he chose to drop half of his arguments after I had responded is troubling. Xivii has mentioned us having a history, to be honest if we do I'm not aware of it. I didn't even realize Xivii was Zen until this game, so I've never been keeping any sort of meta on him. If this is normal for him, I'm not aware of it.

I'm keeping my vote. Second choice would be Ryker.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Well for one I agree with him that Ryker is a very solid play toDay so you're not helping me much with this response. Second I've already questioned your stance on Ryker, which you also haven't responded to - even if I disagreed with Macman on Ryker's case I still wouldn't actually know where you're coming from at all still.

Also why is Ryker a non-option when Maven is a good "second choice" to you? Where's the big difference between them two that makes you OK with Maven going but refusing to lynch Ryker?

:059:
I'm gonna flog you. I'm about done with this ****. You and Mac can both eat **** if you want to lynch me over slots that have contributed far less.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Case in point: you say Mac and soup have to go because the former has bad reads and the latter hasn't hunted scum. Fine.

Then explain to me why you're so unwilling to lynch Ryker when he has neither presented good reads nor truly attempted to find scum. That still doesn't add up. Especially since you have Maven, who has done more than Ryker - perhaps insignificantly so but still - as your secondary lynch choice. That adds up to you well enough to happy with your reads? At this point I feel very much justified in calling your reads bad.

:059:
What the ****? I've done less than MAVEN? All Maven has done is suck your ****.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Okay. I need two hours. I can't get into this right now. Be back then, then we'll launch into this tirade.
 

Vult Redux

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He didn't see why Bardull was put to L-1 but since he was he'd rather the guy die and we'd have a flip because all the bantering going on was pointless.
I get this is what you think and Gheb did saying this to you to support this.

Here's the issue that Zen is bringing up: Gheb told me, when I questioned him from a different angle, that he made the comment about wanting the lynch to go through to add pressure to the wagon.

That's the contradiction that Zen is talking about.
 

Vult Redux

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Which is why I specifically asked people to hammer him?
he wrote this when I whined that we missed an opportunity to have a player sit at L-1 and have people react to it.

this is why I back off him after that:
i like his infamous post a lot more when it's framed as adding pressure to get other players to react to the wagon

it's like... i would do that lmao
 

Vult Redux

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bottom line is gheb said something different to appease me than to appease everybody else
 

Maven89

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What? That was in response to you saying he was scum with Bardull, he pointed out that he asked people to hammer Bardull, not that he wanted to force people to respond to it. That's what you said, Gheb didn't say that at all

Am I going crazy or something? If I'm really wrong on this please explain to me like I'm ********, because I don't understand it at all
 

Maven89

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Here you're saying you left it at L-1 to get reactions, and said Gheb was Bardull's scumbuddy.

uuuuuh so that Bardull's scumbuddy (GHEB) would come to his rescue and we could figure them out and win the game? (i'm an optimist)
Here's Gheb's response.

Which is why I specifically asked people to hammer him?

So on the one hand I'm scum because I asked people the drop the hammer.
But I'm also his scumbuddy because I supposedly came to his "rescue"?

So which one is it?

:059:
Here's the issue that Zen is bringing up: Gheb told me, when I questioned him from a different angle, that he made the comment about wanting the lynch to go through to add pressure to the wagon.

He never said anything like that.
 

Maven89

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Like, do you guys get why I'm pushing on this? Saying "Gheb contradicted himself let's lynch him" is either a horrible mafia push or lack of reading comprehension. I'm thinking for Xivii there's a chance it's both.
 

Vult Redux

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What? That was in response to you saying he was scum with Bardull, he pointed out that he asked people to hammer Bardull, not that he wanted to force people to respond to it. That's what you said, Gheb didn't say that at all

Am I going crazy or something? If I'm really wrong on this please explain to me like I'm ********, because I don't understand it at all
the way I worded it was a facetious way of saying that we get reads from having someone under high pressure. When Gheb said "Which is why I specifically asked people to hammer him?" I took it as him saying that he was supporting that.
 

Xivii

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Maven, if you are town I would take the time to sit down and really read through. I think it would be fair to your fellow players.

Just a pop-in. Just got up and out to work. Vult I'll answer you in a bit.
 

Vult Redux

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Maven just so you know I think you're being straight-up with me and I'm just trying to level with you. I can tell you're not trying to twist things intentionally. I'm not saying you're ******** or anything and I can understand why we have different interpretations of what Gheb said. And it's partly my fault because I was dumb and used humor in the post gheb had responded to
 

Maven89

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the way I worded it was a facetious way of saying that we get reads from having someone under high pressure. When Gheb said "Which is why I specifically asked people to hammer him?" I took it as him saying that he was supporting that.
Vult Redux Vult Redux You saying Gheb was his scum buddy was meant to be facetious? Is this correct?
 

Maven89

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and therefore Gheb's response was only directed towards your real meaning and not the "gheb is is scumbuddy" joke?
 
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