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Flames of Pherae: The Roy Video Thread

Gamegenie222

Space Pheasant Dragon Tactician
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Does anyone here know how to deal with the Kirby MU as Roy and what stages to counterpick as such? My experience is limited against Kirby and hate dealing with dash attack and inhale gimmicks and one of our players in our has been giving people fits with this character. I have one match against Kirby with Roy sadly cause I counterpicked with Charizard so here ya go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...=Bqw1ByhtYMo&feature=player_detailpage#t=2335 at the @38:55 mark.
 

Azureflames

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@ Gamegenie222 Gamegenie222 :
First thing i noticed is that you use DED side-b a bit more than you should. That was probably the most frequent move i saw you use. In this instance it helped you get some of the hits to take a stock but he seems like he was fairly new to the matchup and spacing for Roy's side-b moves. I did really like the flow of the last stock, Saw some good throw combo followups going on.

I think what would help is adapting to read when he's going to Dashattack and learning how to space close enough to get a punish out of it. Bait out his approaches more and punish him for it. I think Fullhop crossup Nair approaches would work well against this guy as well as good spacing with Fair. A good Dair out of Shield could probably do well too. I also noticed that you tend to throw out a lot of random hitboxes with hopes that he'll just run into them. Against a smart player it's really punishable and usually means roy takes a lot of unnecessary combo damage. Its better to either defensively space a retreating Fair swat, Crossup Nair, or bait out an attack to get a grab from what i had to judge on this video. Also for an added tip, I'd recommend the regular dash grab cause it can grab targets lower than his standing grab or JCgrab. Its useful for enemies that can duck like kirby or short enemies in general.


So more mix ups and variability on approaches, a little bit less DED, work on shielding his dash attacks, and work on spacing and walling out opponents.
 
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Gamegenie222

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@ Gamegenie222 Gamegenie222 :
First thing i noticed is that you use DED side-b a bit more than you should. That was probably the most frequent move i saw you use. In this instance it helped you get some of the hits to take a stock but he seems like he was fairly new to the matchup and spacing for Roy's side-b moves. I did really like the flow of the last stock, Saw some good throw combo followups going on.

I think what would help is adapting to read when he's going to Dashattack and learning how to space close enough to get a punish out of it. Bait out his approaches more and punish him for it. I think Fullhop crossup Nair approaches would work well against this guy as well as good spacing with Fair. A good Dair out of Shield could probably do well too. I also noticed that you tend to throw out a lot of random hitboxes with hopes that he'll just run into them. Against a smart player it's really punishable and usually means roy takes a lot of unnecessary combo damage. Its better to either defensively space a retreating Fair swat, Crossup Nair, or bait out an attack to get a grab from what i had to judge on this video. Also for an added tip, I'd recommend the regular dash grab cause it can grab targets lower than his standing grab or JCgrab. Its useful for enemies that can duck like kirby or short enemies in general.


So more mix ups and variability on approaches, a little bit less DED, work on shielding his dash attacks, and work on spacing and walling out opponents.
Thanks for the info. The DED thing was an old habbit I had from playing Melee Roy cause he didn't had that much going for him outside of DED delays and mixups, flare blade, d-tilt, grabs and f-smash. A few of those mistakes were on my part due to slight nerves and misjudging my ranges. I should of played more defensive but oh well next time and need to learn the in's and out's of the options Kirby have with it.
 

Scuba Steve

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Mar 30, 2014
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Austin, TX
Sup y'all. I've been playing Roy in friendlies for a while and even pulled him out in tournament couple of times now. Definitely wouldn't say I main him, but I find him really fun to play and want to get better with him. Any critique is appreciated.

http://www.twitch.tv/austinpm/b/561954077?t=1h30m4s

http://www.twitch.tv/austinpm/b/561954077?t=2h2m10s

http://www.twitch.tv/austinpm/b/561954077?t=38m40s

http://www.twitch.tv/austinpm/b/561954077?t=1h6m25s

Only have a bunch crappy twitch archive **** because I doubt that we're going to bother uploading a bunch of friendlies
 

Azureflames

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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ITa0ZJOi898ITa0ZJOi898

Hey guys I need some critique some samus stuff I won the set but I still don't know if I full understand how to fight her.
First off, i really like the Uair>Utilts i didnt know that it came out that fast for that combo. Second, i saw some great pivot grabs. Overall you look really solid, i think all that i really noticed where a little too many style attempts on Dair meteors offstage when you probably could've just stuck with a sweetspot Bair. Also noticed a lot of misspacing in a number of Dtilts and grabs during techchases as well as some misspacing when she went into ball form. Felt like that balldash threw you off a few times.

I'm not one to really give much advice since i consider myself a bit lower than you skillwise. The MU is really weird from my experiences, although that samus played a lot different from the one i played against. The samus i played against was all about charge beams, Nair outprioritizing, Dair, and that ball form attack, but i digress. I think it all comes down to playing extremely defensive/reactionary while trying to get past projectiles. Maybe more Flare blade and some more Ftilt spacing could have been useful when you had him under pressure? (just some thoughts, i struggled pretty bad in this matchup myself)
 

Ghetto Blush

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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ITa0ZJOi898ITa0ZJOi898

Hey guys I need some critique some samus stuff I won the set but I still don't know if I full understand how to fight her.
Were those whiffed grabs boost grabs? If not you could be a bit tighter with your JC grabs, the same goes for your pivot grabs. Over all I think you played solidly, though. I think Samus is kind of weird because of how hard it is to kill her via horizontal blast zones, something that Roy excels at. You got some pretty good mileage killing her off the top with d-smash; you might want to try utilizing that more in the match-up.
 

Eagle Smash

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Jun 15, 2014
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49
Does anyone here know how to deal with the Kirby MU as Roy and what stages to counterpick as such? My experience is limited against Kirby and hate dealing with dash attack and inhale gimmicks and one of our players in our has been giving people fits with this character. I have one match against Kirby with Roy sadly cause I counterpicked with Charizard so here ya go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...=Bqw1ByhtYMo&feature=player_detailpage#t=2335 at the @38:55 mark.

http://www.twitch.tv/eaglesmash/c/4721183

Maybe you can glean some things from this?
 

Smolder

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Messages
124
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ITa0ZJOi898ITa0ZJOi898

Hey guys I need some critique some samus stuff I won the set but I still don't know if I full understand how to fight her.
I don't have much experience in this MU myself, but one thing I did notice (that you probably already know) is that her missiles are very easy to power shield. All you have to do is crouch, and as soon as the missile flies slightly over your head, you shield. This will (in most cases) guarantee a power shield. If you miss the shield input, the missile will deflect. Really, there isn't much danger in doing this unless the Samus is fast on a grab.
Edit: That ending was awesome. I was wondering why you were doing a lot of aerial DED's, and now I know why.
 
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Binary Clone

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Hey guys. Pretty new Roy here looking for a video analysis from any who have the time. Here's the link!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYpKbUvi-Cc
If any of my fellow Roys can take a look at this and give me some pointers, that would be much appreciated.
First of all, your movement looks really good, and generally your aerials are great. You're definitely a better Roy than I am.

But there's a couple tools that I noticed you just weren't really using. The first thing I'll mention is your options from the ledge. You tend to regrab ledge whenever there's someone pressuring you, and that's not necessarily a good idea. Sometimes it's best to act right after you grab ledge to punish as they're approaching or needlessly throwing out a hitbox. Ledgehop nair is a great option for Roy, and there were a lot of points in this set where you definitely could've used it to start a combo or even just tack a little damage on. If you're quick about it, you'll still have some invincibility while you're doing it, too, so it works well to punish people tossing out hitboxes to try to catch you.

Second, your ftilt. I don't think you really used it at all, and it's a really great tool. Your fsmashes are really good, but sometimes you get a bit too hungry for them. In game 3, (around 13:20), Zelda was at over 150%, up to, eventually, 174%. At about 150% on Dreamland, Zelda will die to ftilt, which has a bit better forward range, less startup, and is less punishable than fsmash. The hunger for the fsmash probably cost you the stock she took at fairly early percent. Also against Zelda, ftilt is a safe and easy way to get rid of Din's Fires.

And then you're also doing next to nothing to edgeguard. Almost exclusively you were dashdancing by the edge and trying to connect an fsmash on their recovery. Zelda can try to cover the ledge with Din's Fire, but you can typically destroy those with a downward angled ftilt so that you can grab ledge. Against Zelda, grabbing ledge late could've gotten you a couple of stocks this set, but it also forces her to recover onstage, which you can often take advantage of with a ledgehop uair or nair. Also, don't be afraid to edgeguard offstage. A lot of Zeldas won't expect an offstage Flare Blade edgeguard, and with Zelda's weight and the startup on her upB, if they're not expecting it it'll often connect and lead to early stocks. If nothing else, it can net you extra damage and keep you in an edgeguarding situation. Also remember that the downward angled ftilt can hit enemies that are on the ledge, and can often be used to hit people attempting to sweetspot or recover to the ledge.
 

Smolder

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You know how we were talking about how the dair hitbox is smaller? Well could somebody please explain this to me? In this video it looked like I was way off, but I got the dair regardless. The dair is near the end of this combo. Do you think it could be due to the dolphin emulator? http://www.twitch.tv/oldetobeh/b/590722300?t=1h53m32s
 

Smolder

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Hello friends, I was hoping to get some feedback on my Roy and what I can do to improve myself. Thanks! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPWKdAR1Sh0
On a side note: That is an awesome venue. You are lucky to have such a spacious venue. o.0 Okay, so I guess I will start with the pros, then the cons, then the muddy areas that are both good and bad.
Pros: 1. Your punish game is pretty good. Almost every time the Ganon did something stupid, you made sure he paid dearly. 2. You did some pretty good crossups on Ganon's shield. From what I remember, (And I may be wrong because Ganon has been changed) Ganon has little to no OOS options, so when you cross him up, you take his only decent (but still not great) option, which is shield grabbing. 3. You have a solid dash dance. I don't think I need to tell you this, but DDing is very integral to Roy's mobility. It is amazing at baiting out attacks from enemies and can even cause some people to panic.
Cons: (Before I start this, it is guaranteed that there will be more cons than pros because I believe you want to hear what you can improve on and not what you already do well.) 1. Going to Dreamland. When fighting a Ganon, this wasn't too bad of an idea because it gave you plenty of room to run around. However, if you find yourself fighting a D3, Charizard, or MK, you may be in for a long match. 2. Refine your combo game. This isn't to say that your combo game isn't good, of course. This usually comes with time though. You kind of develop your combo game naturally, after many, many matches. One suggestion I have is that every time you can get a bair on an opponent who is above a platform and is not at kill percent, you can instead use a super sweet spot dair to force a tech chase on the platform to then continue the combo. 3. Your fairs were not spaced to their fullest potential. Luckily, this Ganon did not shield many of your fairs, which allowed you to get some pretty good mileage off them. However, an opponent who does, will get a free shield grab unless you hit their shield with the absolute tip. 4. Grab the ledge more. Especially against Ganon, because if he is under the stage and Up-B's, there is literally nothing he can do to stop you from grabbing that ledge and taking his stock. Him and Captain Falcon have VERY ledge-hoggable recoveries. 5. Speed up your ledgedashes. I didn't get to see you grab the ledge much in this set, because you had the Ganon on the defensive most of the time, but from what I did see, it seemed as if your ledgedash was a tad bit slow. It could be that your ledgedash was just a little slow that time around, but remember, the faster you can ledgedash, the more invincibility frames you have! 6. Ledgehop fair can be punishable. Once again, this worked on your opponent a lot, but more often than not, all they have to do is shield and grab. If you find it to work well, then by all means, keep using it until you start getting punished.
Grey areas: 1. Your movement is very controlled. This is good in the way that you have a stronger grasp of your movement options, and you have an easier time reining in your movement when needed. However, this also means that you are not moving as fast as you could be. You demonstrated a very fast DD and you also demonstrated that you know how to waveland on platforms. Now take that knowledge, implement it more, and try using it as fast as possible (Especially with wavelanding on platforms. You would be surprised how fast you can traverse the stage with just that technique). A lot of times, you can trip up your opponent with shear movement. The squirmier you are, the harder you are to hit! 2. Dsmash ad Fsmash are awesome ... and bad. Both of these moves are staples in Roy's ability to kill his opponents, but they are very punishable. I, myself am guilty of throwing these out on shields as well, but I learned personally when I fought Sethlon. All he would do is eat them with his shield, then wavedash OOS --> Fsmash or Dsmash.
Conclusion: You're pretty good man. Your reaction time is great. Your combo game is pretty awesome. You have a solid punish game. And you even have decent fundamentals. Just work on polishing some small parts in your playstyle and you'll be golden.
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
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Would anyone like to watch my set from yesterday that knocked me outta the tournament. Minus game 3 I think I played pretty good but I got some issue vs Lucario (always had). Any feedback in the match up from me would be nice. http://www.twitch.tv/smashnl/b/594438593 Starts at 1:52:30.
 

Binary Clone

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Would anyone like to watch my set from yesterday that knocked me outta the tournament. Minus game 3 I think I played pretty good but I got some issue vs Lucario (always had). Any feedback in the match up from me would be nice. http://www.twitch.tv/smashnl/b/594438593 Starts at 1:52:30.
Just so you know, you can link to specific times in Twitch VODs by appending "?t=1h52m30s" (or the like) to the URL.

So, your biggest problem in the Lucario MU is that you're overcommitting way too much. Lucario thrives on combos, but he has a lot of trouble approaching and starting combos because of his poor neutral game.

One thing I was noticing in your game against his Sheik that kind of carries over a bit is that there were a lot of points where you would have benefitted a lot from just a little bit of extra patience given to reading your opponent or evaluating your options. For example, you had Sheik lying on the edge of the stage after a combo and prematurely put out an fsmash, allowing her to roll in and get better positioning than she would have had otherwise, while avoiding getting hit by what would have been a deadly attack. If you'd waited just a small extra moment, you would've closed out the stock right then.

In the Lucario MU we see this less in the staggered game and more in what's closer to the neutral game. You're throwing out a lot of fsmashes, and that's something you can't afford to do in this MU. As I said before, Lucario thrives on combos, but because of his neutral he has to start them by capitalizing on his opponent's mistakes, whether that's by applying shield pressure until the opponent makes a mistake, or by punishing whiffed attacks. In the case of Roy's fsmash, if it doesn't connect, it will almost always be punished by a good player.

I'd advise rewatching games 2 and 3 keeping in mind and taking note of when you are using smash attacks, when it benefits you, and what situation you were using them in. At least two of Lucario's game 3 kills were caused directly by a smash attack thrown out in neutral that was punished and converted to a KO. Almost all of your power hits, not all of which were kills but the hits that knocked Lucario substantially far offstage, were the result of combos that started with a low-commitment attack, not from a smash attack out of a neutral hard read, which I don't think really happened (at least with a substantial impact on the game). The one big non-combo fsmash kill you got on FoD was the result of a read out of a staggered position.

Also, I don't think I saw you nair once. Why not? Nair is awesome.

And don't counter Lucario's upB. If you can read it hard enough to counter it, you've probably got better options, because Lucario's upB does next to nothing, and since counter strictly scales, counter won't do much either.
 

Binary Clone

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Got another vid for you guys to check out. I have several others of me losing to two other players, but I chose this set solely because it has three matches, rather than just two. Any advice would be awesome! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqC_7Pk2FT8
I'm gonna assume what I said last time was at least a little helpful since you're posting again, so I'll write again.

The biggest thing that I'm noticing is that a lot of the time it looks like you're playing on autopilot. As I said before, your movement is fantastic, but a lot of it is also starting to look a little too automatic. Without fail, whenever you drop through a platform, you do an uair, if you run off a platform, you fair, unless the opponent is positioned so you'd need to do a different attack to hit them. Now, this isn't really that bad, I don't think, but you're still losing frames by doing this, since you always do it, even if your opponent is completely on the other side of the stage. You could be wavelanding to mix up your movement even more or just to get where you're going faster. Especially against Fox, where he can just spam lasers for free damage, fancy footwork on the opposite side of the stage isn't very useful, it's just opportunity for him to spam little bits of percent. Also, a lot of the time when you're high up, you burn your double jump while you're still very high. Don't do that. don't use your double jump unless absolutely necessary. You double jumped at the peak of your ascent during game 3 once, and if Dad had gotten off a bair or another uair or an usmash, there would have been little you could've done to prevent it, and if it knocked you offstage, it would have severely limited your options, and burning the jump did little but extend your airtime. It doesn't do much to mix up your descent when used that high.

Also, and this is kind of the same thing, you should try to keep in mind more what your opponent's options are and which they are most likely to take at any given time. And if you're not sure, don't overcommit to covering any single option. There were multiple moments in this set where you hit or threw Dad to the edge of the stage, where he hits the stage and has very few options. He can tech in place, he can tech towards the edge, he can tech in and past you, or he can just not tech. But you tended to fsmash towards the edge, even though that's one of the least likely options for him to take. In that situation, generally Dad would want to tech inwards, because if he doesn't, he'll probably get hit by your smash attack and die off the side. If he techs in, even if you call it and you fsmash him, he has the entire stage to cross before he's as close to the blast zones as he would be if he didn't tech in. If you don't read, then he now has center stage and better positioning, along with an opportunity to punish if you've committed to a bad read. And those times, that's pretty much what happened. And that's kind of all I mean by that. Take advantage of staggered situations like that to get reads. You know what the options are just as well as he does. If you can cover the best options, those are often the ones he'll be taking.

Otherwise, you know I think you're awesome. Keep it up.
 

Smolder

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I'm gonna assume what I said last time was at least a little helpful since you're posting again, so I'll write again.

The biggest thing that I'm noticing is that a lot of the time it looks like you're playing on autopilot. As I said before, your movement is fantastic, but a lot of it is also starting to look a little too automatic. Without fail, whenever you drop through a platform, you do an uair, if you run off a platform, you fair, unless the opponent is positioned so you'd need to do a different attack to hit them. Now, this isn't really that bad, I don't think, but you're still losing frames by doing this, since you always do it, even if your opponent is completely on the other side of the stage. You could be wavelanding to mix up your movement even more or just to get where you're going faster. Especially against Fox, where he can just spam lasers for free damage, fancy footwork on the opposite side of the stage isn't very useful, it's just opportunity for him to spam little bits of percent. Also, a lot of the time when you're high up, you burn your double jump while you're still very high. Don't do that. don't use your double jump unless absolutely necessary. You double jumped at the peak of your ascent during game 3 once, and if Dad had gotten off a bair or another uair or an usmash, there would have been little you could've done to prevent it, and if it knocked you offstage, it would have severely limited your options, and burning the jump did little but extend your airtime. It doesn't do much to mix up your descent when used that high.

Also, and this is kind of the same thing, you should try to keep in mind more what your opponent's options are and which they are most likely to take at any given time. And if you're not sure, don't overcommit to covering any single option. There were multiple moments in this set where you hit or threw Dad to the edge of the stage, where he hits the stage and has very few options. He can tech in place, he can tech towards the edge, he can tech in and past you, or he can just not tech. But you tended to fsmash towards the edge, even though that's one of the least likely options for him to take. In that situation, generally Dad would want to tech inwards, because if he doesn't, he'll probably get hit by your smash attack and die off the side. If he techs in, even if you call it and you fsmash him, he has the entire stage to cross before he's as close to the blast zones as he would be if he didn't tech in. If you don't read, then he now has center stage and better positioning, along with an opportunity to punish if you've committed to a bad read. And those times, that's pretty much what happened. And that's kind of all I mean by that. Take advantage of staggered situations like that to get reads. You know what the options are just as well as he does. If you can cover the best options, those are often the ones he'll be taking.

Otherwise, you know I think you're awesome. Keep it up.
Great review as always, Binary. I will keep everything you told me in mind for next time. Thanks for the advice!
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Just so you know, you can link to specific times in Twitch VODs by appending "?t=1h52m30s" (or the like) to the URL.

So, your biggest problem in the Lucario MU is that you're overcommitting way too much. Lucario thrives on combos, but he has a lot of trouble approaching and starting combos because of his poor neutral game.

One thing I was noticing in your game against his Sheik that kind of carries over a bit is that there were a lot of points where you would have benefitted a lot from just a little bit of extra patience given to reading your opponent or evaluating your options. For example, you had Sheik lying on the edge of the stage after a combo and prematurely put out an fsmash, allowing her to roll in and get better positioning than she would have had otherwise, while avoiding getting hit by what would have been a deadly attack. If you'd waited just a small extra moment, you would've closed out the stock right then.

In the Lucario MU we see this less in the staggered game and more in what's closer to the neutral game. You're throwing out a lot of fsmashes, and that's something you can't afford to do in this MU. As I said before, Lucario thrives on combos, but because of his neutral he has to start them by capitalizing on his opponent's mistakes, whether that's by applying shield pressure until the opponent makes a mistake, or by punishing whiffed attacks. In the case of Roy's fsmash, if it doesn't connect, it will almost always be punished by a good player.

I'd advise rewatching games 2 and 3 keeping in mind and taking note of when you are using smash attacks, when it benefits you, and what situation you were using them in. At least two of Lucario's game 3 kills were caused directly by a smash attack thrown out in neutral that was punished and converted to a KO. Almost all of your power hits, not all of which were kills but the hits that knocked Lucario substantially far offstage, were the result of combos that started with a low-commitment attack, not from a smash attack out of a neutral hard read, which I don't think really happened (at least with a substantial impact on the game). The one big non-combo fsmash kill you got on FoD was the result of a read out of a staggered position.

Also, I don't think I saw you nair once. Why not? Nair is awesome.

And don't counter Lucario's upB. If you can read it hard enough to counter it, you've probably got better options, because Lucario's upB does next to nothing, and since counter strictly scales, counter won't do much either.
Thanks for the response. Quite helpful. Looking back on game 2 and 3, I played pretty bad. Especially in neutral. Lots of hail mary smashs and dairs, hoping they would connect and do my work for me. I think if I played him in neutral more like the shiek, i'd do so much better.
 

Binary Clone

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Okay, I'm gonna go video by video and see if I notice more as I go along. Prepare for a wall of text.

Video 1:
First of all is your recovery. You're recovering much too high, much too often. It killed you multiple times, and really, it should've killed you more. Roy's recovery is better than most people give it credit for, as long as you have good DI, but the landing lag is extremely easy to punish. Keeping that in mind, you should only rarely be recovering onstage, and then only when you're punishing a mistake on their part using Blazer's hitboxes or when you're forced to due to edgehogging. Recovering high as Roy is extremely risky, since a single poke offstage without your double jump available often means the end of a stock. Almost all of the time, you should probably be recovering to the ledge if it's possible to do so. Don't be afraid to drop down a little bit to get closer to the sweetspot range.

Second is your dash attacking. You are incredibly fond of Roy's dash attack. And, well, it's a useful move. But at one point in the final game I decided to count, and you did four dash attacks in a row. That's pretty much never something you should be doing. There are better options as far as coverage, combo extenders, combo finishers, etc. that would have done much better in those situations. It is a useful move, but you're very much overusing it and neglecting the rest of Roy's toolkit. Roy is very well-designed in that every single one of his moves is useful. Don't get hung up on using just one.

Related to the dash attacking, you should grab more. Roy has one of the best standing grab ranges in the game. Jump-cancelled grabs out of dashdance are your friend. They allow you to punish whiffs effectively, help techchase, and can be very effective at racking up percent early on. Instead of just dash attacking out of your dashes, you should try to start grabbing more often. It'll also help keep your opponents on their toes, as they can't just shield once they catch on to your fondness for the dash attack.

Counterpicks and stage banning. Okay, so this one can be a little tricky. But I found your choice of bans rather questionable. When you're banning stages, you need to think about your opponent as much as yourself. True, dreamland isn't a great stage for Roy. Big blast zones mean that he doesn't kill as early and his recovery doesn't go out that far, so opponents often die later than he does. But against Marth, banning Dreamland typically isn't necessary. Marth is disadvantaged almost just as much as Roy on this stage. He can't tipper through the platforms, and his recovery isn't too much better, and at those distances, is also very predictable and easy to edgeguard. On the flipside, Yoshi's Story is usually a good stage for Roy. Small blastzones mean he kills early, and low platforms are good for his combos. But against Marth, this is one of his strongest stages. He can tipper through the platforms and also gets easy combos out of them, along with fast kills from the blast zones. On Yoshi's, being on a platform suddenly becomes extremely dangerous - that's how your game on Yoshi's ended, in fact, as you were tippered through the platform. The Dreamland ban, then would likely have been better spent on Yoshi's Story, since in that MU, Yoshi's is worse for Roy, and Dreamland is fairly neutral.


Video 2:
Another move you're over-relying on is your Flare Blade. You pop it out much more than you should in neutral and to try to chase people. It's a pretty slow move, and it forces you to overcommit a lot of the time. Overall, you really didn't connect with it that often. You should try to only use it as a guaranteed aerial combo finisher or to edgeguard. A lot of the time you're using it to try to chase people down when they're out of range, and often you miss and the commitment the move requires means that you have no real options to follow up in time. Taking your time a bit more and searching for a safer, more reliable option often would pay off for you. Another way you're overrelying on it is in your edgeguards. You use it on the edge almost without fail. This makes you very, very predictable, and makes it safe for your opponents to sweetspot without fear, or recover high. While Flare Blade may seem at first to be a very good edgeguard, it often covers fewer options than one might think. When enemies are recovering just above the ledge, oftentimes an ftilt or a dtilt into combo is just as, if not more, effective, and also is much faster to come out and requires less commitment to the option, allowing you to be more flexible.

Use your shield, and use your shieldgrabs. You opponent wasn't shield grabbing you nearly as much or punishing a fraction as hard as he should have (or punishing you for your onstage recoveries, either) on your dash attacks. It's slow, it's shield grabbable. This Ness was being pretty bad about it. You dash attacked him multiple times while his shield was up, and he failed to take an easy guaranteed punish and shield grab you. You should be making use of shield grabs too. It's a great way to punish unsafe aerials and other attacks, and helps convert into techchase opportunities or juggles.

I'm gonna have to stress your recovery again here. You're recovering onstage way too much, and you definitely should have been punished much, much harder for it. Ness could've ended several stocks substantially earlier if he had effectively punished, or punished at all, your onstage recoveries.

You're also much too eager to end your combos. I saw a lot of situations where at low percents you popped them up in the air and immediately fsmashed when you could have utilted or dtilted to continue a juggle and use a combo finisher later on. Racking up damage at those percents is more important than putting the game into a staggered state. You may be in a better position than them after that fsmash, but they're in a better position than they would have been if you had continued the combo. At low percents, you can juggle effectively with utilts and uairs, pop them up with dairs or dtilts, extend combos with jabs, grabs, or fairs, etc. etc. Roy is great at combos, and learning to use them will up your game a lot.

Also related to combos, is you should watch out for and pursue conversions into combos. I was puzzles a few times when I saw you neglect to follow up on an attack for pretty much no reason. At 12:59, you hit Ness with a dash attack and then... just kind of... walk away. But this was a great opportunity for a juggle or a combo. Make sure you're aware of how your moves knock people back and how to convert that into more damage.


Video 3:
Game 1 could easily have been a 4 stock if that last section you'd recovered to the ledge instead of pushing onstage into his fsmash.

Is banning Lylat just a personal preference thing? Lylat is a fairly good stage for Roy because of the platforms allowing him to uair and utilt through them. Banning Skyworld would have been a much better choice than Lylat or Yoshi's Island, since Skyworld is one of Roy's worst stages. The platform placement is terrible for Roy, as he can't often recover to them like many other characters can, and he struggle to combo or juggle through them like he can on other stages.

Blazer isn't a combo move, and you shouldn't treat it as such. You've used it a couple of times in the previous videos too, but it doesn't do much damage and minimizes your chances of following up or killing. When you're chasing somebody upwards, it's always better to double jump and uair or wait for them to fall and try to hit them on their way down. Using Blazer does very little damage and opens you up to a punish due to the massive landing lag.

Game 2's huge turnaround was a combination of how bad Skyworld is for this MU and, again, that game-ending high recovery. Especially when your opponents catch on to that tendency, they may just pull a little bit back from the ledge, out of your range, and if they do, they can punish you very hard for it.

Watch game 3 and note how many times Charizard charges an fsmash on the edge as your recovering. Almost every time, if he'd spaced it properly, you would've died.

In all three of these sets, I have yet to see you do a nair. A lot of the times you're throwing out Flare Blade, a nair would be a better option, along with many of your dash attacks. Nair also outlasts spotdodges, so you can often hit people out of dodges with it. It also has great coverage, which means it can be effective for techchases.

Now, Ravioli didn't beat you because of his combos or his tech skill of because of the MU or the stages. Ravioli beat you because he figured out how you play. Watch the set, and you'll see how he catches on to how you recover high, how you tend to roll, how you attacked his shield, and how you move. With that knowledge, he began edgeguarding you the same way every time - because you recovered the same way every time. He started smashing in the direction you tended to roll. He started shieldgrabbing you and converting it to an edgeguard. And he began calling your movement to grab you out of it.

So how do you counter that? By being able and willing to mix it up. Recover low and safe, and punish his edgeguards. Tech in place, spot dodge, grab his shield, make your movement unpredictable. All of these are fundamental skills, but that does not, by any means, mean that they are simple or easy. They are something you have to be aware of and actively try to improve.

Overall:
Recover to the ledge. Practice it. Go on a stage, by yourself, and just jump off and practice the sweetspot range, or play with a friend and have them hit you off, and practice recovering to the ledge. Cut down on dash attacks and Flare Blades. Make sure you use all of your kit, and pay special attention to JC grabs/shieldgrabs, nair, and your tilts (particularly the combo tilts like dtilt and utilt). Grind out your SHFFLs a little bit and practice extending your combos. You should use fair much more than you do. Fair and uair are your bread and butter for extending combos, and if you start using them I think you'll see a lot more success in your combos. Practice uair/utilt juggles. Practice JC grabs and chaingrabs. Figure out what stages are best for Roy, and think about what stages are best or worst for your opponents when you counterpick or ban.

And, most importantly, keep playing, and have fun! Small communities can be tough to grow, but having people to play with is always better than not having anyone at all. I'm sure you guys will all push each other to get better. Good luck! And let me know if you have any questions or want any feedback, or anything at all.
 
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Aminimouse

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Okay, I'm gonna go video by video and see if I notice more as I go along. Prepare for a wall of text.

-wall of text cut-
Thanks a ton, I'll definitely practice all that. Lylat is a personal preference thing, but it's because I've never really played it I don't think (besides brawl). I wasn't really aware it was a good Roy stage but now that you mention it I see why. Maybe I'll go from practicing on BF to Lylat for a whle. I'm suuppeerrr new to the scene and just got my setup like a week ago. I was pretty nervous to post on here because I'm for sure the worst Roy on this forum, but I'm glad I did. Also I had no idea skyworld was that big >.< I realized I was in trouble pretty soon into that game lol.

Also thanks for pointing out the counterpicks against marth. Overall I was always looking for a short wall and high cieling stage (sonic/warioware?) but I didn't think of his recovery being worse than roys, I just wanted quicker kills off the side. I never would have seen that myself.

I knew that I was relying on Dash Attack and Neutral B way too often, but I thought, at least, it was working out decently (because we're all bad.. lol). I was afraid to use fair and nair to approach because I thought Roy was a more grounded character, and could be punished after landing if not spaced super far away, especially if my SHFFL is weak, so I tried to stick to Dash Attack, dtilt, ftilt. How does a Roy approach then?

Also note a good portion of dash attacks were flubs >.< trying to jump and attack too quick I think? Idk. And same with recovering on stage. Maybe that's why I'm afraid of Lylat because of the super thin bottom that I don't want to get caught under. I'll try just sweetspotting 20 times in a row though or something on every stage.

But still, thanks for the advice, I know I've got a lot of work to do D;
 
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TreK

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Basically, I'm new to Roy but not to PM. I'd like feedback so my mistakes don't turn into bad habits. Feel free to gfycat any situation you feel like talking about so we can all know what you're talking about specifically =D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCQMqmkoK8 vs Charby (Marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qchxSh6FUs vs Charlon (Marth) (second match)

What I've picked up irl and on the Roy skype so far :
-fthrow -> tech chase -> repeat has very low damage. If I manage to get a tech chase right, I should go for another, more damaging option
-I suck at landing killmoves
-I put myself on platforms for no reason and get juggled for it
-let's not CP WW against Marth anymore x)
-I don't dtilt enough
-Roy can sweetspot a little bit lower than what I aim for
 
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Binary Clone

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Thanks a ton, I'll definitely practice all that. Lylat is a personal preference thing, but it's because I've never really played it I don't think (besides brawl). I wasn't really aware it was a good Roy stage but now that you mention it I see why. Maybe I'll go from practicing on BF to Lylat for a whle. I'm suuppeerrr new to the scene and just got my setup like a week ago. I was pretty nervous to post on here because I'm for sure the worst Roy on this forum, but I'm glad I did. Also I had no idea skyworld was that big >.< I realized I was in trouble pretty soon into that game lol.

Also thanks for pointing out the counterpicks against marth. Overall I was always looking for a short wall and high cieling stage (sonic/warioware?) but I didn't think of his recovery being worse than roys, I just wanted quicker kills off the side. I never would have seen that myself.

I knew that I was relying on Dash Attack and Neutral B way too often, but I thought, at least, it was working out decently (because we're all bad.. lol). I was afraid to use fair and nair to approach because I thought Roy was a more grounded character, and could be punished after landing if not spaced super far away, especially if my SHFFL is weak, so I tried to stick to Dash Attack, dtilt, ftilt. How does a Roy approach then?

Also note a good portion of dash attacks were flubs >.< trying to jump and attack too quick I think? Idk. And same with recovering on stage. Maybe that's why I'm afraid of Lylat because of the super thin bottom that I don't want to get caught under. I'll try just sweetspotting 20 times in a row though or something on every stage.

But still, thanks for the advice, I know I've got a lot of work to do D;
I mean, stage choice also does come down to personal preference, too! But you should try to practice on stages you don't like or aren't comfortable with so you have a range. There's also the idea of knowing your opponent and what stages they'll pick. I know a guy who will counterpick Lylat as often as possible just because he knows most people don't like it and have little experience there. I also know some people who will never pick certain stages, so I never need to ban them. And hey, for only having a setup for a week, you're doing really well! I hope to see you around here more often.

Having walls is a nice thing for Roy, since you can kind of ride up the sides with your upB. Blast zones are very important too, and you're right in that Warioware and Green Hill Zone are typically good picks. Marth's recovery isn't really worse than Roy's. It can go farther, since Marth falls slower, but it's also more predictable, less flexible, and doesn't have as advantageous of hitboxes.

A Roy's best options are typically punishing his opponent's mistakes. One of the best things you can do is dashdance to bait out attacks, and then punish their whiffs with a grab or a wavedash dtilt or even a dash attack. Dashdance grabs are very, very valuable, though, and are quite simple to execute these punishes with. As far as being more aggressive, nair is a great option, since, if you space it right, they can't shieldgrab you, since you hit with just the tip. If the attack does connect, then it sets up a tech chase situation. Also note than ftilt isn't really an approach - it's a poke. It has great range, but it's pretty much impossible to combo out of it.

That's definitely a good idea for practice. Recovering on those stages is a challenge, and Lylat and Skyworld are pretty infamous for denying recoveries.

I'm glad it helped, and have fun!
 

Binary Clone

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Basically, I'm new to Roy but not to PM. I'd like feedback so my mistakes don't turn into bad habits. Feel free to gfycat any situation you feel like talking about so we can all know what you're talking about specifically =D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCQMqmkoK8 vs Charby (Marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qchxSh6FUs vs Charlon (Marth) (second match)

What I've picked up irl and on the Roy skype so far :
-fthrow -> tech chase -> repeat has very low damage. If I manage to get a tech chase right, I should go for another, more damaging option
-I suck at landing killmoves
-I put myself on platforms for no reason and get juggled for it
-let's not CP WW against Marth anymore x)
-I don't dtilt enough
-Roy can sweetspot a little bit lower than what I aim for
Marth matches. Oof.

Gfys are a good idea, I'll do that.

Okay, so, first, I think you need to work on your punish game. A lot of times where you have the opportunity to punish, things like this ended up happening. If you'd dtilted instead of a jab, or even grabbed, you could've converted into your own combo or at the very least a techchase or edgeguard situation. Instead, he was able to shield your dtilt and take the stock with his punish. In other moments, you neglected to punish where you had the opportunity. Whiffed aerials are a punish opportunity, even if they seem like the lag is too small for anything substantial. Getting a grab to punish those whiffs are still key, even if they do very little damage. They still set up tech chase situations and a staggered playing field, and that can do more than you think.

Also watch out for how you execute your combos at higher percents, where it seems like you struggle to close out stocks sometimes. Here you likely could have used a quick Flare Blade instead of an uair to close out the stock with an edgeguard, but instead it is hard to convert into anything from the uair, and the stock drags until it ends with... a jab. Roy really shouldn't ever be ending a stock with a jab. By the time that's possible, they should've been dead 50% ago. And here you do get a pretty good combo, but you probably should've used a SHFFL'd uair to extend the combo, possibly into utilt -> fsmash or utilt -> fullhop fair -> uair -> fsmash or something, depending on DI. If the fullhop was just an execution error, it would still probably have been better to uair or bair. Flare Blade is much too slow, and even though you were able to get an uair out after he hit you with the fair, he had ample time to predict your next move and DI the fsmash very well.

Another thing is your use of the DED. You seem a bit overly fond of the xxxv combination. Though it can be nice for shield pressure, it's very punishable and doesn't tend to have very much reward. Try mixing it up and using xxx> and xxx< more frequently. xxx> is extremely powerful, and xxx< is a fantastic mixup that a lot of people will fail to expect. xxx^ is faster than all of the other finishing moves, but won't kill often except on floaties. Also note that xxV is also multihit, so you can add on a little extra pressure on shield that way, too.

I was gonna mention not counterpicking WW against Marth, but you already know that. I find it useful to break down why, though, so in case you haven't given it much thought, I'll briefly break down how I see it. WW is typically a good pick for Roy. Tiny blastzones mean that his recovery doesn't hamper him, and he kills very, very early. The platforms allow him to utilt and uair through them and sometimes extend combos, though their positioning isn't the best they could be. The wall also helps Roy's recovery as you can ride up and sweetspot from higher up by tilting Blazer forward, making it less predictable. However, when picking stages you always need to consider your opponent as well. WW is a good stage for Marth in almost every way that it's a good stage for Roy - but he gets the added bonus of being able to tipper through all of the platforms, the upper ones while standing on the lower platforms. With the minuscule horizontal blast zones, that means you'll be dying incredibly early from those platform tippers, especially with bad DI - which is very easy to be caught in through platforms.

A better counterpick, and in my opinion, one of the best stages for Roy, is Fountain of Dreams. FoD is to Roy what Yoshi's Island is to Marth. The low platforms help you extend your combos with the added bonus of allowing you to sweetspot through the platforms. That, combined with the walls of the stage, mean it's a great stage for him, perhaps especially in the Marth MU where he struggles a bit more to get tippers.

As for the things you've noticed yourself:
Fthrow -> techchase -> repeat does indeed have very low damage. On the other hand, it is your fastest and most reliable option for techchasing. That means you can be more reactive instead of relying on your reads. If you have time or reads, you definitely should go for a more damaging move or a better combo starter. But mixing up fthrows and dthrows can do much more than you'd think, in techchases, but also in chaingrabs. Here Sethlon mixes up his fthrows and dthrows extremely effectively, allowing a chaingrab to almost 30%, and then a conversion into a string that brings Dakpo over 80%. There you can see that throws and regrabs can really add up to a lot if you can use them effectively.

Killmoves. Yes. Roy has a lot, though. DED xx> and xxx> both can function as killmoves. Ftilt is great for edgeguarding or catching an opponent with bad DI. If you haven't managed a killmove and they're in late percents, ftilt can be a really great option. Try to combo into bair and fsmash using dtilt or dair to pop them up. Flare Blade is fairly safe to use offstage to edgeguard. Tipper dair is a semispike that can also be great for edgeguarding when you use it out of a ledgehop. If you get a grab near the edge, throw them off and ftilt. That extra poke can make it a lot harder for them to recover, and make it easier for you to edgeguard to close out the stock.

Yep. Just be aware of where you are, what your options are, and what your opponent's options are. Sometimes it's nice to be on a platform. Usually, it isn't.

Dtilt is great. Yep. Use it. Nothin' to say here.

Roy's ledge grab range is huge. But it's also hard to get used to, especially since Blazer can be angled so many ways. Only thing for it is practice.


Overall, though, I think you're doing pretty well. It seems like you're playing pretty skilled opponents. Once you tighten up your game a bit with respect to closing out stocks, I think you'll see some very rapid improvement. Hope to see you playing more Roy in the future!
 

TreK

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Very thorough, just what I needed !
Thanks for your time, I'll put in some work and we'll see how that goes next time :D
 

TreK

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Double post because reasons

Ooh, it seems another replay got lost in the mix (well, two, actually, but I only go Ivy in the other one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJL4TnrB3pA vs Charby (Marth) (match 2 and 3)

Many of the same mistakes (god I suck at killmoves)but still, more footage :V
 

Binary Clone

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Double post because reasons

Ooh, it seems another replay got lost in the mix (well, two, actually, but I only go Ivy in the other one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJL4TnrB3pA vs Charby (Marth) (match 2 and 3)

Many of the same mistakes (god I suck at killmoves)but still, more footage :V
Hey again Trek! Obviously I won't point out the same things as last time, but there's a few things that I noticed here worth mentioning.

First are your techchase options and coverage. I did kind of talk about this previously, but I want to expand on it here. When techchasing, one thing a lot of people fail to do is contextualize the techchase. What I mean by that is that they just go for wherever they instinctively think the player is going to go, instead of actually thinking about where the player can go, and thus, where they are more likely to go. You are going for more combo starters and higher-damage attacks in this set, which is good. But situations like this merit a bit more thought. The very beginning of this gfy is the only important part. The fthrow techchase. Here you go for a dash attack, which can work great to extend or start combos. Marth isn't quite floaty enough or DIing right enough that a dash attack will connect, though, and so Marth techs in place and punishes the whiff. In Marth's situation, though, he has only really three options. He can tech in place, he can tech in, or he can not tech. Teching to the edge really does nothing. This is great for you, though. Three options are fairly easy to cover, especially since all of them are only a roll's distance. You do have an option to cover all of those options - nair. Nair, in my opinion, can be a very good techchase. It has very good coverage, knockback, and even combo potential, along with dealing a good bit of damage. If you nair in that situation, if he techs in place or doesn't tech, you knock him offstage and it's an edgeguard situation. If he techs in, you knock him into the stage and your low ending lag allows you to pursue him and continue a string. It can obviously be hard to think on this level mid-game, but it's definitely worth thinking about.

Now, I want you to watch this gyf a couple times. It's fairly innocuous, so it might be kind of unclear why I want to bring your focus to it. The answer is combo options. In this situation, after the dtilt, a SHFFL'd uair probably wasn't the best choice. One thing to remember in your aerial combos is that one very important ability that Roy has is that after doing a quick fair out of a fullhop, Roy has time to pull out an uair. With forward momentum, this also means that the fair and uair hitboxes overlap a bit, quite nicely, and it'll combo very easily. What can be extra nice about this is that sometimes they get out of hitstun just before the uair - long enough to double jump, as people often do, but not long enough that their double jump gets them out of the way. Now you have them in the air above you, primed for an utilt, another dtilt, or even an fsmash, and you've robbed them of their jump, making continuing the combo even easier. Yesterday during a game with one of my friends I used that technique probably two or three times in a single combo, and it can rack up an absurd amount of damage if you manage to link them with dtilts or other combo moves.

Here I want you to think about how you're recovering. Watch it a couple times, and ask yourself what you could've done better. At first you might just think, well, I should have just rolled on or wavelanded invincibly so I wasn't hit. But there's another mistake that happens before that, which actually causes that next mistake to be fatal. Most people are very used to seeing their double jump as a valuable resource - you want to conserve it and be careful with it. However, a lot of people are unused to thinking the same of their stalls - in this case, Roy's first DED strike. The important thing here is that it only really stalls on the first hit, then a tiny bit on the second hit. And this stalling ability is not refreshed by the ledge. It's refreshed by landing on the stage. Your mistake here is that you instinctively used the stall without purpose when he threw you off, when you could have easily recovered using only your upB and double jump, or even just your upB. Because of that, you lost your ability to stall when he hit you off again, costing you valuable time to circumvent his edgeguard.

I hope that was helpful and I'm not repeating myself or anything. I just woke up, so I may be talking in circles.
 

Binary Clone

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This forum seems so active, i am jealous
Take the initiative! The video thread was pretty dead if you look at the dates of page 2 and the top of this page. I decided that people should get feedback faster in general, so I've decided I'm gonna try to give people prompt, detailed feedback on their videos as often as I can here, because I'd like to see more activity here. A couple other people are doing the same, and it seems like more people are posting in general now, too.
 

Smolder

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Messages
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Take the initiative! The video thread was pretty dead if you look at the dates of page 2 and the top of this page. I decided that people should get feedback faster in general, so I've decided I'm gonna try to give people prompt, detailed feedback on their videos as often as I can here, because I'd like to see more activity here. A couple other people are doing the same, and it seems like more people are posting in general now, too.
Hey, Binary. I'm going to be at a pretty good Oklahoma regional. Make sure to have your pen and paper ready, because I'm gonna need more of those review skills after this tourney. I've been working heavily on cleaning up my playstyle, but old habits are hard to break. I'm still having a hard time wavedashing to ledge and instantly ledge dashing back to stage. I am still having trouble with constantly doing platform drop uairs. But I believe my skill level increased a bit after putting your review to good use. Can't wait to enter "The Salty Runback" today!
 

Binary Clone

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Hey, Binary. I'm going to be at a pretty good Oklahoma regional. Make sure to have your pen and paper ready, because I'm gonna need more of those review skills after this tourney. I've been working heavily on cleaning up my playstyle, but old habits are hard to break. I'm still having a hard time wavedashing to ledge and instantly ledge dashing back to stage. I am still having trouble with constantly doing platform drop uairs. But I believe my skill level increased a bit after putting your review to good use. Can't wait to enter "The Salty Runback" today!
Good to hear! I'm looking forward to watching your games!
 

VishapSlayer

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Sup all. Haven't asked for a video critique in abssolute ages, so this should be fun!
I'm a SoCal Roy, maining him since v3.0 came out last January. A few weeks back I had the pleasure of attending a fest hosted by @AznGamer405 and played a bunch of games on stream - I'm hoping to get some insights on what I'm doing correctly, what I'm missing, and how I can improve in both the short and long term.

Links:

Vs. Crux (Zelda) - PS2
Vs. Crux (Zelda) - BF
Vs. Lobo (DK) - Green Hill
Vs. Lobo (DK) - Norfair
Vs. Lobo (DK) - Skyworld

Shoutouts to Lobo and Crux - two incredible players who are, in my eyes, the best players of their characters in our region. Glad I was able to keep up in my games versus them, however, I know I have a very long way to go. Some areas of focus that I'd like to work on:
-Maximizing punishes off of grabs
-Effective space/air control
-Heightened neutral game awareness (conditioning the opponent, responding reactively)

So with that, thanks in advance all!
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
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Seattle, WA
Man i wish i had a way to record sets so i could also get feedback. what do you guys normally use to record matches or do you usually just happen to go to tourneys where the matches are recorded?
 

Binary Clone

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Evanston, IL
Man i wish i had a way to record sets so i could also get feedback. what do you guys normally use to record matches or do you usually just happen to go to tourneys where the matches are recorded?
I think most of us submit vods from tournaments that were streamed or recorded. Alternatively, though, you can do netplay and record it on your computer using something like OBS.

@ VishapSlayer VishapSlayer , I've been super busy this week (I just got home from TOing a 67-person tournament), and I'll likely be busy most of tomorrow, but I'm going to try to go through your videos and give you a critique soon.
 
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