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Legend of Zelda Fixing the Zelda franchise?

D

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I'm sure some of us can agree that the Zelda franchise is beginning to get stale. I at least speak for myself when I say that with each new Zelda installment I find myself caring less and less about the franchise in general.

So, if you feel as I do, feel free to post ideas and the like you would like to see implemented in future Zelda games, or the direction you yourself would like the Zelda franchise to take.



Anyway, this post will be rather long, so I'll try to make a video in the near future explaining it all if it's tl;dr.



I think they should continue with keeping split entries in the series. The "main" epic quest, and the experimental Zeldas.

For the experimental they should go back to the roots of Zelda 1,2 and 3, and work with that. A well fleshed out, Zelda 2-esque game would be amazing today. Especially as a Metroidvania game.

For the main quest, last night I gave it some thought before going to bed, but taking Zelda and making it a Sandbox RPG like TES, and adding the "leveling" and crafting mechanics of Monster Hunter would make for an incredible game.

Basically go back to the roots and allow players to take on the main dungeons in any order like in Zelda 1. Make the main quest almost secondary. Like in MM/WW and TES series, and focus on building the world in Zelda. One of the most interesting things in the Zelda franchise is the lore. So just focus on that. Build the worlds, make it fun and interesting to explore, scatter rewarding dungeons ALL across the land. Make enemies tough, so that fighting them is both challenging and rewarding. To this I would also add, add more HUGE common enemies, and make their rewards worthwhile. Bring back the "leveling" system from Zelda II, but elaborate on it. Rather than having an actual 'level up' system like in TES, enemies drop skill points that can be distributed to different things, which determine what sort of equipment you can use. Adding to this, make it so that the mini games actually have a function. For example, the typical Archery mini-game will rewards you with Dexterity Skill points which can unlock more combat skills for that weapon, and allow you to equip and use 'higher level' weapons.

Which brings me to my next point: the crafting system. In Monster Hunter, your character's level is not determined by experience, but rather by the "level" of your equipment. Applying this to Zelda, in dungeons, rather than finding the "item," should instead find the materials necessary, and blueprints for crafting different types of items, which you can then go back and give to a blacksmith (or whatever) to make a weapon for you, which you can then upgrade to different weapons when you find the correct materials. This should apply for combat weapons though (Swords, Shields, Tunics, Armor, Bows, Boomerangs, Bombs, etc...). However, make the system robust. Introduce DOZENS of different swords to craft, for example, and make the weapon crafting a large part of the game, where most of the fun comes from going to different dungeons and exploring them to find different materials to craft into differen weapons and armors. Not just that, but give us different types of weapons. For example, in Zelda, we've seen Sword+Shield, Two-hand Sword, and Hammers, as weapons. Why not introduce other things. Perhaps allow for a split in the inventory, where, when you leave your "hub" town, or one of them, you can only carry so much stuff. Forcing the player to really think what sort of equipment he wants to take with him for his next quest. Not just that, but also allowing the player a degree of customization on what sort of combat style they prefer to use (like in TES and MonHun), also adding to the replay value of the game (especially if you allow players to tackle dungeons in ANY order, every play will be theoretically different). In addition, players should also be responsible for carrying potions, elixirs, and food (for the stamina meter) for the quest, as enemies should no longer drop hearts(or bombs or arrows for that matter, players have to make these themselves now), (they will drop loot though which you can search to take materials for crafting more weapons, and sometimes they'll have potions and food, just not as common as in past Zeldas. However, to balance the fact that you may run out of potions, players should be allowed the ability (if they unlocked the skill), to blend their own potions on the fly, if they find the right materials (a direct rip off from MonHon). This way Link is no longer prepared for every endeavor, but rather has to think carefully about what he needs to take and what is best to leave behind. To balance this however, there should be multiple solutions to the problems ahead. For example say there is a Rock in your path. Well normally, you'd have to blow it up with bombs to get through, and you're SOL if you don't have any, well, if you've chosen to use hammers for combat, you can use that to break it, likewise you could use an explosive spell to blow it up. Or if you have a gap to cross, and there is a tree on the other side, but you still don't have the Hookshot, well, if you have the Bow and have purchased rope, you can easily create a Zip-Line by shooting an arrow tied to a rope, on the other hand, if you went the Magic route, perhaps you've got a Levitation Spell, or you could even transform into a Fairy (like in Zelda II). This way, you're no longer reliant on gimmicky single use items that are very situation, but rather are given a plethora of options to tackle puzzles and obstacles.

Also, in addition to the combat items, I feel the introduction of non-combat items is necessary as well. Now, we've had these in Zelda before, but with a crafting system, I feel it is very important to set what is needed in stone. For example a Pick-Axe to mine for ore is vital (once again like in MonHun), a Bug-Net has appeared before, the Wallet obviously returns, bottles do too, Pouches to carry items found in the field such as weeds and mushrooms and trinkets, a Fishing Rod, the Raft should return, whistles for calling animals, etc... Also the Gear Link can carry should be expanded on, for example, say you're going to a quest to a tall Icy mountain, well, why not take some climbing gear with you? I should certainly make getting up the mountain easier, and allow you to avoid some fights as well (in addition, you can also have a variation of the Hookshot that's adapted for climbing (you have to upgrade your hookshot and and have enough skill points to wield it though), Like a pair of claws, that simply allow you to scale vertical surfaces). However, you'll also need to take warmer tunics, which you'll have needed to make prior to wanting to go to this area, this means killing furry monsters and looting their fur (now as far as looting works, I'd say after you kill an enemy, they drop this orb, which if you choose to pick it up, it brings up a screen of the items that you can loot from that enemy, sometimes it useless stuff, other times it's food and materials for making stuff, and sometimes even whole weapons you can wield yourself, or melt them into valuable material for crafting weapons (this makes the mining process less grindy, however, super-rare materials should only be mineable)). Likewise, if you head into the desert, it's recommend you take the correct items and clothes with you as well. So now you have many options on your attire, and could even have Link wear Armor, however, I feel there should be a limit to customization here, for example, Link's hat is always present in one way or another, even if his face is covered. Also, like I said before you can craft other times apart from the weapons, from tunics to armor, to potions to even your items, you can make everything (I want a very robust item system like in MonHon), just take it to the specialist, and he'll make it for you, for a price. Likewise, you can save Rupees by unlocking the "Alchemy" skill and other similar skills by spending skill point correctly.

In Combat the player is also given options as well. depending on their preference and build, you could choose to be stealthy and snipe opponents with your Bow, or maybe cunning and lay bomb traps all over the place, or just be a hard *** and tackle them head on with your Sword as you've forged some really tough armor (why not give Link the option to actually have Armor?). In addition, like in Twilight Princess, you can combine items. However, this requires you to have unlocked said skill with the skill points system, say you spent enough points in Intelligence and Dexterity and are really good with a Bow and Magic. Well, this is how you shoot Fire, Ice, and eventually Light arrows. Or if you went the explosives route and are keen on making different bombs and explosives, but also use Bows, well, there's your Bomb Arrows. Or, you're good with Bombs and Magic, well you can make Bombs with magical properties (not sure how that would work). The skill system has endless possibilities. With Skill points you can also purchase sword techniques such as the Up-Thrush, Down Thrust, Spin Attack, Bull-Charge, Shield techs, like the Shield Bash, Shield Ram, etc... But also a certain Skill level in something is necessary for certain weapons. Say you want to wear Hylian Armor, well you need to have a certain Level of Strength and Constitution to wear it. Now your skill points don't affect your stats in any way, your 'stats' are determined purely by your equipment, so aside from the function of the weapons, meaning what moves and combos each weapon class has available, the unique stats of each one is also very important. Meaning that you cannot carry that Wooden Sword and shield through the whole game if you want to survive. Also, this is a good time to mention that the Heart Containers obviously return, they are found as they are in all the Zelda games, and have the same exact function. Furthermore, skill points are gathered by killing enemies, whether they drop them or not and how many they drop is purely up to chance, obviously stronger enemies give better yields. However, the weapon or method you used to kill them determines what sort of skill points you get from them (didn't Fable do something like this? I can't remember). The skill points are dropped in a special colored "money bag" like in Zelda II. As far as what stats there are, well I think the basic: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma (for dialogue and animals), Luck, and Agility seems reasonable. Basically, collecting skill points ups your "level" for that category in a tree like fashion where the higher you climb up in a certain branch the more skill you unlock for weapons and stuff related to that, also, this is not just limited to your combat abilities, and some skill require a certain level in multiple categories. However, since some categories aren't combat based, you can also work for them by doing silly side quests, like the Village side quests in Twilight Princess, or playing minigames, Archery for Dex, Gambling for Luck, etc... Also, some actions dialogue options will give you more points in Charisma. However, there should be a limit to how many skill points you can get in one whole run, I feel enough to Max out 2-3 categories while neglecting the others is fair, that way there is not "master of all skills" Link running around, and it adds to the replay value. Likewise you cannot get all the weapons and items in the game in one run. I'll touch on this later on...

Now, I keep talking about Magic, and what I mean is, BRING MAGIC BACK. I dunno what happened to it, but it's been pushed aside in recent Zelda games. Back in Zelda 1,2 and 3. Magic played a VERY crucial role, even to the point that it was pivotal as it was in Zelda 2. Bring THAT Magic back. Allow players to do different things with it. Things such as the basic: Din's Fire, and certain variations of it for projectile Magic. Farore's Wind to warp, but even time based Magic that can take on the properties of the Ocarina of Time from MM, and Transformation Magic that allows you to transform to different things, and even races, essentially doing what the Masks of MM did (but perhaps making them less elaborate than the Masks, as it's not pivotal, you still keep your normal abilities, but your appearance and properties change, maybe you gain a couple of new abilities, but that's it.

Next, Side Quests. LOTS and LOTS of Sidequests. Make the world MASSIVE. If I were to choose a setting. I would say make it a Zelda game quite a bit farther into the future from recent Zelda games. Introduce Link as a wandering traveler who's caught up in something larger than life, and has to choose his destiny. Which means, you have options (and dialogue options (no, Link will still not talk)), in what you can and cannot choose. Now, I would still set a Limit, meaning you cannot go full evil, as Link is a Hero, but Link can choose a unique personality, meaning you can be modest and good-willed, or just be a total ****. The choice is yours, and your choices will have a severe impact in how the world around you is shaped. Take this humorous image of Link for example:


Now, they're all technically Link, however, their personalities are all quite different. This is more akin to what I mean.

[Also, more of this if you want it:
http://archive.foolz.us/v/thread/166137821/#166148740
http://archive.foolz.us/v/thread/165423234/#165428959
http://archive.foolz.us/v/thread/164741112/#164749354]]
Basically, give players the freedom to choose how their Link is perceived in his world, but not to the extent that they make him NOT-Link anymore, and skew the traditional canon. However, like I said, your actions affect the world around you and how it reacts to you. This sort of cause and effect system has already existed in Zelda before, but only on a minor scale, I say make it bigger, more like in TES, where a whole village will hate you if you attack someone. Thus placing a bigger effect on the player and expanding the immersion. But I also say, develop this even further to the point where you will only meet certain characters and unlock certain quests and items, if you behave a certain way and take on certain requests. In TP, Link sorta joins a guild. Well, why not elaborate on this? As I said, the setting I would choose, since this is a world heavy Zelda, would be in the future after TP (or something), after some Great War (Ganon, or a new evil or whatever ****ed **** up, and it stayed that way, with a corrupt central kingdom, Princess Zelda attempting to lead a rebellion, and the different Regions of Hyrule split from the main rule, each as an independent kindom, the reason for this is for that, Goron Village/Mines, etc.. Is now no longer one place. But there's an entire Kindom dedicated to the Gorons in Death Mountain. You have tunnels and networks (think the Dwarves from Lord of the Rings, you remember the cave where Gandalf 'died?'). With many small villages you can visit, and even a Large awe inspiring Goron City. The same is done for the Zora, the Gerudo, etc... However, give us a bit more than the usual 5-6 races. We've seen a bit more here and there, and have seen other Locales (snow, the sky, etc...) in Zelda, so elaborate on that. Therefore, which such and expansive and immersive world, the decisions a player makes have a much heavier impact. Especially if we tie this to what the player can and cannot make (as far as items go), so for example the Goron are really good at making bombs and hammers, so to unlock those weapons, you have to spend a lot of time doing quests for and helping the Gorons, and finding different Blacksmiths (a parenthesis, yeah, I feel the best way to rank weapons is by making Blacksmiths unlockable, once you've done several things for a region you can unlock the highest rank Blacksmith who will make the top tier weapons for that race for you), likewise the Kokiri would be good with Bows, the Hylians with Armor and Shields, and so on... Also, as I mentioned earlier, you should not be allowed to get all the weapons in one run, the reason should be obvious now, but I feel it can be a very fun way of implementing things, by helping some races more than others, you unlock more things for certain races, but at the same time, neglect others more. So you can't get all Blacksmiths, weapon makers, craftsmen and so on for all the races, only a handfull. As for what weapons we should see?
Well in Combat, what we normally see in Zelda:
>Swords
>Shields (in addition to the usual shields, we can also add huge shields that are very defensive and the like, and can be even be used offensively)
>Hammers (now two hand and small Throwable, Imagine crafting a Small Throwable hammer that can be used to both Strike nearby and Hit opponents from afar, the hammer can also be infused with magic to produce lightning, and even Magnet elements to make it return to you.... Thor anyone?)
>Great Swords (Great Fairy and Biggoron are two examples, we can add many more though)
>Bombs (from Bombs, to Bombchus, to Timed Bombs, to Smoke Bombs, and Poison Bombs, to Sonic Bombs, to Barrel Bombs, to Dynamite, etc...)
>Bow and Arrow (the usual, however it can definitely be upgraded increasing its properties, including Range and Power (DESIGN), how many Arrows can be fired, and even give Link the option to slash close range with the arrows (MonHon once again), you can alos have Fire, Ice, Poison, Bomb, Light, etc... Arrows, but also, Razor arrows for more damage, Pierce Arrows for high defense foes, Scatter arrows, and even utility arrows)
>Boomerang (can also be upgraded, magically for one, to give it different properties, but also it's form an design, eventually it can even become a large powerful Shuriken-like disk with blades).
>Slingshot (to differentiate it from the Bow, aside from inferior range and power, it's function is also different, it works as a sort of Summoner, basically, you fire seeds from it that can birth plants that do different things from burning stuff, to trapping enemies, to even eating them flat out (think post time-skip Usopp for those who are keen on One Piece), it can also be upgraded in similar ways as the Bow)
>Hookshot (the usual, includes the Longshot and double upgrades obviously, different up gradable properties can include delay and power (meaning it CAN be upgraded to Pierce anything), but you can also work on neat variations or it, like the one used for scaling I mentioned earlier, but also perhaps as a whip, like Sheik in Smash?)
>Magic Staff (a good one if you go the Magic route, the possibilities are endless here as far as upgrades go, this can also be how Link casts generic Spells aside from the Goddess Spells (Din's Fire, etc...)

As far as new stuff that would be neat, well for one:
>Knives, Needles: could be neat as a Sheika weapon, especially for those who want to go the agility route.
>Dual (Katana) Swords: another one for the Agility route, mostly because it would contrast nice with the Standard Sword and Shield and the Great Sword, being faster and very combo heavy, but lacking in defense, forcing the player to avoid more).
....

....

That's all I got for now, everything else I think of doesn't mesh to well with the Zelda Universe, the Katana thing was kinda pushing it. And I feel expanding on what we have is better than adding a lot of new stuff that might take away from the feeling. Not to mention there are many weapons already in Zelda that I didn't mention, however, I tried to avoid situational items. Perhaps some of the more fun ones can be found as unlockable items by certain craftsmen. You know, items that fall into that "other category. Also, perhaps this would be a good time to mention, this game would be better off without the Master Sword, as the central focus is not the "story" but the freedom to craft, create and explore. Also, as far as combat goes, Z-Targeting is the best way baby, that combat system is perfect for the Skill Tree and allows for many options. To this day I still find the Combat in Windwaker some of the best in the series. However, because many weapons use combos, I feel motion controls should stay out of THIS Zelda game.

The last thing to touch upon, would be the level scaling of quests. Since your leveling is not determined by levels, and you can tackle the dungeons in any order you choose, I say make it so that certain actions cause reactions in the world around you, thus making future entries into ANY dungeon much more difficult than the last with stronger foes, this forces the player to stay on their toes with the crafting and skill systems, and also adds to the challenge, especially with the main quest, that way it no longer feels like the Endboss is waiting silently for Link to show up and kill him, but rather, is aware of Link's presence and is taking measures towards killing him. This is a factor I feel is really lacking in modern Zelda games, and I think it's the best way to approach it. However, take note that not only the Main Quest actions will up the difficulty as you progress, but also, certain side quests and actions will cause events that increase the difficulty, this way, the post main quest isn't a snore fest, but also, it makes it so that people can't just grind the side quests to blow through the main quest. As for what events cause the difficulty spike? I would look at the game Sengoku Rance as a reference point. In that game, doing certain things will cause certain events to take place, thus severely altering the options available to the player and how the NPCs and world reacts to your actions. Granted, Rance is a Strategy game, however, I feel the same thing can be incorporated into a non-linear RPG like what I'm proposing.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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In other words, you want to turn Zelda into some kind of pseudo MMO
 
D

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In other words, you want to turn Zelda into some kind of pseudo MMO
Yes and no. It would benefit a lot from sandbox RPG mechanics, and a lot more incentive and freedom to explore. But MMO means that it's online. There's no need for that.

I feel that the Zelda lore is a large part of the appeal of the franchise and a game that allows us to explore that with more depth is great. Also, my personal favorite Zeldas are Majora's Mask, Windwaker, and Zelda 2 so, I defintely would like it if it went back to those games and took the best aspects of each one, while drawing reference from TES and MonHun.
 

Jam Stunna

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I read your post OP, but I don't want to directly address it because I'm not familiar enough with TES or Monster Hunter to judge for certain if those changes to Zelda would be good or bad, but they sound interesting at least.

I just finished beating the 5th Dark World dungeon in LttP with my son about five minutes ago, and I'm watching him play OoT now. As I compare the two, I can see alot of what has gone wrong with Zelda, and many of those problems began with the transition from 2D to 3D.

The switch to 3D necessitated some sort of targeting system, and the one implemented for OoT was great, except that it introduced the partner character to the Zelda franchise. Later Zeldas have done away with using your partner character to target your opponent, but they continue to insist on saddling you with a character that follows you everywhere throughout the game. Sometimes this works well (Midna and Ezlo), but more often than not it's been either mildly annoying (Navi/Tatl/King of Red Lions) or horrendously bad (Fi). I'd really like to see Zelda return to just a boy and his wits, receiving the occasional hint from an NPC instead of otherwise dead weight character you're lugging around explaining everything for you (this also includes the camera zooming in on puzzle elements when Link enters a room. Enough of that).

Another big change has been the lack of enemies in dungeons and the overworld, and their lack of toughness. Zelda has always had puzzle solving elements, but in the 2D Zeldas there were also hordes of monsters doing their best to kill you. There was an enemy in the LttP dungeon I just completed that took four hearts if he hit you. Four! And this was just some guy walking around in rooms, not a miniboss or dungeon boss. I don't know if it's a result of the limitations of populating a 3D world with tons of monsters or a philosophical decision regarding difficulty by Nintendo, but the overworld in Zelda games since the switch to 3D have been almost completely devoid of enemies, and totally empty of any enemy that poses a challenge to the player. Likewise, where dungeons in the 2D Zeldas had rooms full of bad guys, the 3D Zeldas have shifted almost exclusively to a puzzle-oriented approach to dungeons, with bad guys appearing as set pieces instead of integrated throughout the dungeon. It's turned Zelda dungeons into a chore instead of a challenge. My son and I can blow through a LttP dungeon in about 15 minutes, provided we don't die. But in the 3D Zeldas, I know we'll beat a dungeon with no real danger, it'll just take an hour.

I must disagree ManlySpirit about the lore aspect of Zelda. In my opinion, it's become a major drag on the series, one which stifles real change and innovation as Nintendo continues to insist on THE Master Sword, THE Hero's Shield, THE Hero's Tunic, etc. This is another trend that started with the 3D Zeldas. Zelda lore has always existed, but only since OoT has there developed a kind of cultish obsession with the lore of the series, and it manifests itself in needing to establish the origins of everything Link has, from the Master Sword to his hat. Closely related to this is the increased focus on the remarkably uninteresting stories in the Zelda games. In LttP and earlier, the story was basically just a framework for moving the player from dungeon to dungeon, but now we have to sit through cutscenes that make no sense or Gaepora go on and on about Link's special red bird. Let's just play the damn game.

I could go on and on, but I have stuff to do lol.
 
D

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I read your post OP, but I don't want to directly address it because I'm not familiar enough with TES or Monster Hunter to judge for certain if those changes to Zelda would be good or bad, but they sound interesting at least.

I just finished beating the 5th Dark World dungeon in LttP with my son about five minutes ago, and I'm watching him play OoT now. As I compare the two, I can see alot of what has gone wrong with Zelda, and many of those problems began with the transition from 2D to 3D.

The switch to 3D necessitated some sort of targeting system, and the one implemented for OoT was great, except that it introduced the partner character to the Zelda franchise. Later Zeldas have done away with using your partner character to target your opponent, but they continue to insist on saddling you with a character that follows you everywhere throughout the game. Sometimes this works well (Midna and Ezlo), but more often than not it's been either mildly annoying (Navi/Tatl/King of Red Lions) or horrendously bad (Fi). I'd really like to see Zelda return to just a boy and his wits, receiving the occasional hint from an NPC instead of otherwise dead weight character you're lugging around explaining everything for you (this also includes the camera zooming in on puzzle elements when Link enters a room. Enough of that).

Another big change has been the lack of enemies in dungeons and the overworld, and their lack of toughness. Zelda has always had puzzle solving elements, but in the 2D Zeldas there were also hordes of monsters doing their best to kill you. There was an enemy in the LttP dungeon I just completed that took four hearts if he hit you. Four! And this was just some guy walking around in rooms, not a miniboss or dungeon boss. I don't know if it's a result of the limitations of populating a 3D world with tons of monsters or a philosophical decision regarding difficulty by Nintendo, but the overworld in Zelda games since the switch to 3D have been almost completely devoid of enemies, and totally empty of any enemy that poses a challenge to the player. Likewise, where dungeons in the 2D Zeldas had rooms full of bad guys, the 3D Zeldas have shifted almost exclusively to a puzzle-oriented approach to dungeons, with bad guys appearing as set pieces instead of integrated throughout the dungeon. It's turned Zelda dungeons into a chore instead of a challenge. My son and I can blow through a LttP dungeon in about 15 minutes, provided we don't die. But in the 3D Zeldas, I know we'll beat a dungeon with no real danger, it'll just take an hour.

I must disagree ManlySpirit about the lore aspect of Zelda. In my opinion, it's become a major drag on the series, one which stifles real change and innovation as Nintendo continues to insist on THE Master Sword, THE Hero's Shield, THE Hero's Tunic, etc. This is another trend that started with the 3D Zeldas. Zelda lore has always existed, but only since OoT has there developed a kind of cultish obsession with the lore of the series, and it manifests itself in needing to establish the origins of everything Link has, from the Master Sword to his hat. Closely related to this is the increased focus on the remarkably uninteresting stories in the Zelda games. In LttP and earlier, the story was basically just a framework for moving the player from dungeon to dungeon, but now we have to sit through cutscenes that make no sense or Gaepora go on and on about Link's special red bird. Let's just play the damn game.

I could go on and on, but I have stuff to do lol.
By all means bro, I made this thread to see all the neat ideas others would post, not to brag about mine, great things can be given birth when people collaborate, in fact in your post you've already pointed out something I didn't notice before.

You're right, we HAVE been tied to an incessant partner since OoT, and we really could do better off without it. Also I agree on the difficulty, that's one thing I'd like to see fixed, more difficult enemies. One of the things that makes Zelda II a great game in my eyes is the constant sense of danger one has as travelling (not)Hyrule, you just never know when you're gonna meet something you simply can't handle. Granted Zelda II took too far with the resetting from the beginning and all, but still. Zelda dungeons today are much more puzzle oriented than Action oriented, when in fact it was the opposite when Zelda started.

Also, what I mean by lore, is not exactly the benign aspects that have been touched on over and over and over again such as the Master Sword and the like. What I mean by lore is, is actually the WORLD of Zelda itself. The landscape, the temples, the history, the legends, the species and races, the Goddesses, more of that. I don't care about the Master Sword and it's origins, or the triforce. Give me the opportunity to explore Death Mountain's caverns and learn about the Gorons and their origins a a species, or dive to the depths of the ocean and see Sprawling Zora villages. Make an expansive world that immerses me and makes me want to discover it. TP kinda felt like this in a way, but felt like it needed more fleshing out. Expand on the Zelda world, but do it in a LotR kind of way, Tolken was a master at world building. LotR is the staple of all of the fantasy lore of modern times, Zelda should approach things in a similar manner, that why I suggest the TES (sandbox approach), don't shove these stories in my face, let my own curiosity to learn about the world around me, COMPEL me to discover.
 

GreenKirby

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How to keep the franchise from going stale:

1) Stop making OoT clones

Mission accomplished.
 
D

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agree with everything jam said.

also, am i the only person infatuated with all of the random **** in the oracles series? i wish there was more of that stuff in the overworld to just go find stuff.
 
D

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Agreed, that's why Zelda would benefit from Sandbox RPG mechanics.

Anyway, just started playing Skyrim for the first time today, and I realized how many of my ideas are in that game... Gahahaha, whoops. And I thought I was being original... Hahahaha
 

Jam Stunna

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Just finished LttP with my son yesterday, and a couple more things have come to my attention, mostly concerning the use of items.

In addition to the better mix of puzzles/enemies in LttP, the dungeons in LttP were designed better from an item standpoint. It's become something of a running joke in Zelda games that the item you find in a dungeon is only useful in that particular dungeon, but this hasn't always been the case, and is once again one of those truisms that only became such in the 3D Zelda era. There were some dungeons that used the item found within as basically a fancy key, as Tim Rogers of Kotaku so perfectly put it, the hookshot being the most egregious example in Dark World dungeon #2 (and the flame rod literally being this in the Lost Woods dungeon in the Dark World). However, later dungeons integrated these items wonderfully for puzzle-solving. Most notably though, there were several dungeons that had items that simply helped Link overall, such as the Blue and Red Mails and the Mirror Shield. There were even some items found in dungeons that only helped Link outside of dungeons, such as the Moon Pearl and Titan's Mitt. Items have become unduly tied to dungeons in the 3D games, and at their worst are totally useless outside of their respective places of origin (Ball and Chain and Spinner, anyone?).

Items are also related to exploration, and I think it's not a coincidence that Skyward Sword, the game which emphasized free-roaming exploration the least, also has the least items of any Zelda game. Below is the item select screen for LttP. Take a look at it, and count how many of those items are actually optional or found outside of a dungeon through exploration:



More than half of Link's Y items aren't found in dungeons, and five of them aren't even necessary to complete the game. They offer the player an incentive to explore the world of Hyrule beyond rupees and heart pieces. Now look at Skyward Sword:



None of those are found through exploration. I suppose you could make an argument about exploration for obtaining the upgrades, but standing around in the desert waiting for tumbleweeds to blow by hardly counts as exploration to me. The only rewards in SS are rupees and heart pieces, both of which become useless to the player as the game progresses. Skyward Sword gutted the item system in Zelda in just about every way: they gave you less, handed you them in dungeons, and made them utterly useless in combat in favor of swordplay. Zelda needs to reverse that trend in the next game.
 

Beat!

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agree with everything jam said.

also, am i the only person infatuated with all of the random **** in the oracles series? i wish there was more of that stuff in the overworld to just go find stuff.
Dude, I love the oracle games. My favourite Zeldas by far. Making new Zelda games more Oracle-like would be freaking awesome.
 

etecoon

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TES suggestions are interesting because honestly at this point a recent game in that series (Skyrim) is more like an evolution of the original LoZ than the most recent Zelda games have been. The fixation Nintendo has had with OoT has been the series' greatest detriment, for the series that has dominated the adventure genre for the better part of a quarter century Nintendo has been extremely unambitious with it for the past decade
 
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I find it hard to see much OoT cloning done in the future games. They all seem to be clones of each other. Only minor in fighting due to differences from 2d to 3d shift.

I do not see what cloning there is going on from OoT. Any element found in that game is found in every single zelda game except perhaps Zelda II for the nes/snes where it was more RPG like. The only change again was the idea of a targeting system to fight enemies.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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Agreed, that's why Zelda would benefit from Sandbox RPG mechanics.

Anyway, just started playing Skyrim for the first time today, and I realized how many of my ideas are in that game... Gahahaha, whoops. And I thought I was being original... Hahahaha
That's basically what I thought you were copying.
 

etecoon

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I find it hard to see much OoT cloning done in the future games. They all seem to be clones of each other. Only minor in fighting due to differences from 2d to 3d shift.

I do not see what cloning there is going on from OoT. Any element found in that game is found in every single zelda game except perhaps Zelda II for the nes/snes where it was more RPG like. The only change again was the idea of a targeting system to fight enemies.
most of what comprises OoT is found in earlier zelda games but what comprises earlier zelda games is not entirely in OoT, save for MM and SS the series has just narrowed in focus repeatedly since OoT(and SS is a showcase of bad game design)
 

Tacel

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Nintendo could continue what they're doing with the Zelda series and I would still love each game that they throw at me. Perhaps I'm just easy to please, or maybe it's because video games are less important to me than they used to be. Either way, I can still manage to agree that the franchise is getting stale, and I truly believe Nintendo has dug (and is still digging) itself into a very deep hole.

Nintendo tends to play off a gamer's nostalgia. Personally, I'm a sucker for that. All they have to do in a new game is reference a previous game and I'm melting like a fool and crying out for more. So yeah, they're currently successful with that particular audience. Obviously that doesn't apply to everyone. Many gamers want Zelda to evolve and grow. They don't want Zelda to keep reusing the same old stuff that is no longer pleasing to them. It's almost as if Zelda is selling out.

You must not forget that young gamers will always be included in Nintendo's target audience. Most likely you'll say that this is an obvious point. Yeah, they want to make as much money as possible. But this must really be considered. Nintendo isn't going to make a TES/MH-esque game because that doesn't appeal to young gamers. And if Zelda doesn't appeal to young gamers, it will eventually die out, and they won't be able to play off a new generation of nostalgia suckers.

Now that we're all past our age of discovery where everything is new and anything could please us, Nintendo thinks nostalgia will keep us coming back to Zelda. Basically, our time is up. Nintendo can use the same old stuff that they know was successful when we were kids on a new generation of gamers. We'll be nostalgic and love it, while the kids will love it because they love anything. Those kids will grow to be nostalgic and love it like we did, and the cycle will continue.

We can't expect the Zelda franchise to evolve and grow with us because it will eventually die with us.

Zelda has a beginning, but it does not necessarily have a definite, already decided end. Allow me to use the Harry Potter series as an example. When she started writing the series, J.K. Rowling had a plan for a beginning and an end. As she wrote and released each book, the story grew and matured with the audience. It was successful for that audience because it always appealed to them Since Zelda has no definite end, it can not do this. Imagine if J.K. Rowling had no definite end to the series and she pumped out each book just like the first so that a new, younger generation could learn to love any one of the books just like the original generation did. The original audience would have grown out of the series because the style of the first book was continuously reused and reused and it no longer suited them. Nintendo can not do what J.K. Rowling did because they don't want Zelda (or money) to end.

This is the hole that the Zelda series has dug itself into. Nintendo feels that it must reuse old content to please an old audience with nostalgia and a new audience with content already deemed successful for a nostalgic future. Pretty much, Nintendo is recycling its ideas.

This really just sucks for those who want Zelda to evolve. People like me who will always be pleased and nostalgic with Zelda will obviously not have a problem.

I apologize for my disorganized thought process. Feel free to as for clarification if necessary to understand my thoughts.
 

Jam Stunna

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You make some very good points about Zelda's target audience, and the fact that we're aging out of it, if we haven't already. I can accept that, but I just wish they wouldn't make bad game design decisions. As etecoon mentioned, SS was rife with bad game design.
 

etecoon

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interesting point about zelda not maturing because it has no end, and nintendo ultimately has to appeal to children to survive. I think it was evolving at some point(LA and MM are good examples of nintendo showing some maturity in the series, and not simply on an aesthetic level with blood and gore like most games that are still essentially childish) but nintendo has to hit the reset button on that every so often because microsoft and sony dominate the adult video game market, I'm just not going to be part of their target audience anymore because that's just what it is. I can think to myself that it's been dumbed down too much and that LoZ and LTTP were good games when I was young and I still like these games, maybe it has nothing to do with age, but maybe they wouldn't appeal to kids as much these days
 

KrIsP!

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I just want to say that I really want to play another side scrolling Zelda game. 2 was meh but they've gotten so much better at it since then. Look at metroid, mario, kirby, donkey kong and yoshi's island. All of them play distinctly different from one another, now imagine a side scrolling zelda with intuitive 2D puzzles and technical combat. Throw in a hookshot and some other functions to make traversing the world more interesting and plenty of secret areas and we've got something unique form the usual top down or 3D lather rinse games.

That's just what I kind of want them to try, along with some combos in the combat and cool use of items in a new plane with a very detailed 2D look instead of 3D, kind of like yoshi's island without the crayon aesthetic. Oh man I want it so bad.

Edit: Nintendo has to realise the danger of ignoring their older audience in favor of their family friendly reputation. Just like when they required a game to be approved for the NES and didn't allow bloody gore, they lost all their third party support to Sega. Now adults play on sony and msoft machines, they'll be showing that to their children instead. We grew up with Nintendo, there's a much larger audience of people who have been here for 30 years than the one who is just starting out and will eventually age it like the rest. Games like Zelda, Metroid and Star Craft don't need to tippytoe around violence.
 

Teran

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Zelda should stay as far away from Elder Scrolls influence as possible. In fact, the gaming industry could do well to stay as free of Elder Scrolls influence as possible.
 
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Zelda should stay as far away from Elder Scrolls influence as possible. In fact, the gaming industry could do well to stay as free of Elder Scrolls influence as possible.
Not that I disagree with you, but why?
 

Teran

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A part of it is actually in my last blog so I'm not going to bother with it here.

Maybe if people keep asking but honestly it should be quite apparent.
 
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Well, that was certainly an interesting read. You brought up a lot of interesting points, and are totally rught about immersion.

Props.
 

etecoon

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Good read, I like Skyrim but it's far from a perfect game itself and I don't think anyone would want Zelda to go fully in that direction(300 dungeons, all of them are exactly the same!), and that's now that Bethesda has streamlined the series a lot, I can't even get into the earlier TES games. I do feel like it could use more RPG elements like SS started to do however(gear upgrades, no leveling and grinding please), and I'd definitely like to see more of MM's influence, I thought that game was a huge step forward and then WW and beyond just went back to really lifeless NPCs that never made me care about them as characters
 

TheKalmarKing

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Does it need to be fixed? Yes and no. It must not be fixed by just ripping off elements from other famous games, because after that, people will just say "Meh, I prefer to kill dragons in TES, thank you Gohma but there's no Fus-Roh-Dah in your game". It must be fixed by giving a proper identity to each of the games, like Wind Waker and Skyward Sword tried to do. Before OOT, each of the games was compelling in it's own way: LOZ was the creator of the franchise and a great adventure game, Zelda II incorporated villages, sidescrolling and magic into the franchise, ALLTP gave us two different yet very similar worlds and many tools, etc.

If Nintendo stopped looking at OOT saying, "Hey, what if we took the general feel of the game and remixed it? It's OOT, everyone will love it!" then it could shine again.
 

FalKoopa

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I just want future Zelda games to return to do away with motion controls.
 

Shaq

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Stop tryna ride OoT's coat tails yo.

All my team mates tried to do dat and when Shaq left well yea **** didn't go too good y'all.

Forreal tho, instead of tryna suck da ***** of all da OoT fans, most of whom is prolly too old to be playin' games now (I mean damn ***** I was in my 20s when dat **** came out), you gots to look at what made the games great at the core, then you use dat zeitgeist to create somethin new.

Zelda aint about 8 DUNGEONS, SMALL KEYS, DIS ITEM GON' KILL DA BAWSS, YO KILL GANON SAVE ZELDA NIKKUH. Nah homie, Zelda is about dat exploration, atmosphere, scope, and freedom.

Make **** mo' organic, and dammit man, give Zelda a phatter ass Shiggy mah niggy.
 

ranmaru

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The items in SS sucked, in my opinion. I mean, by the time I had one item slot left, I was only slightly hyped to see what would be the last item I'd get from the dungeon I was in. I got frickin mole gloves. Great. ****.

None of the items were fun to play with. Like Tacel said, it's just recycled items. I think the highest point was the Bow. That shouldn't be it.

Now, reading Tacel's post, I can drop desires for the zelda series (or even mario series) to ever mature. I think I have realized it won't. But, I do think Nintendo can still bring good contributions.

I mean, another Oracle of Ages/Seasons would be.... MAGICAL. And that, could deff be targetted to kids too.

I was going to write a letter to Nintendo of America demanding for OoA/OoS on the 3DS, but it seems it's already coming out soon (around summer).

Now, here is the problem to just accepting that Zelda won't mature. We won't really have a reason to fight for better Zeldas.
 

ranmaru

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You know what? Why don't we all come together and just play Zelda Four Swords, and whine and complain about how we won't have better designed Zelda's or whatever, and still having fun.

I had it but traded it in because it's no fun playing it solo! :D
 

KrIsP!

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I want them to take a look at items in Arkham City. I felt like that entire game was heavily inspired by Zelda at certain points, especially in Arkham Asylum against the Poison Ivy boss which reminded me of the first boss in TP.

But what I liked about the items in AC was that they were given quick inputs like X+O instead of switching to that item, that way each item helped in combat. None of them were needed for successful combat, I finished the game without knowing about most of the inputs but on my hard mode playthrough they were necessary and I quickly learned them to make longer combos.

As well, each of them had some sort of use in exploration or traversing the world...actually...I might have posted this when I came to this thread, I should check.
 

finalark

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Nintendo tends to play off a gamer's nostalgia.
Jesus Christ this, plus the rest of your post, but mostly this. I haven't played Skyward Sword, so I really can't judge, but I really don't want Nintendo to run Zelda into the ground like they did Mario.

That's my major issue with Nintendo, they find a formula that works for their games then repeats it over and over again until it's stale. I know it makes sense from a business standpoint, but it makes their franchises stale.
 

Bowser D.X

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What I DON'T want: I don't want the series to go in some drastic change by making into s a sandbox game or something, if I wanted that I would just play a sandbox game. And I don't want any of that "decide if you want to be good or evil" crap since in my eyes Zelda (and it's characters) is a series that should be set in stone, if you ad any of the stuff that's in a lot of modern games you would be taking away part of it's charm. If they're gonna change Zelda to be more in touch with the modern times by taking stuff from other games while also reworking the core design etc then they might as well give Link a rifle and call it "Zelda Modern Warfare". I also don't wan't the series to go TOO dark, since Zelda is a series that should be enjoyed by all ages, MM and TP are as dark as things should get.

What I DO want: I simply think they should make a Zelda game that's just like any other but with a few new ideas not seen in any game before then in order to revolutionise not only the series but possibly the entire industry while still keeping it as a Zelda game. Perhaps they could go beyond that and make a Zelda game that goes completely above and beyond while still holding true, sort of what OOT was to ALTTP.
 
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