First Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List

It is common for fighting game communities to create a tier list for their game as a source of reference and debate regarding the tournament viability of the cast. The Smash scene is no exception to this, and all games in the series have had a tier list posted to SmashBoards. More often than not, the website itself was instrumental to the creation of these lists, mainly through projects organized by the so-called Smash Back Room for each respective game.

Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS finds itself in the unique position of receiving patches, DLC characters and stages for more than a year after release, with two more characters still forthcoming. As a result of this, it made sense to hold off on tier list discussion until a period of relative stability came along. The current patch (1.1.3) left the majority of the cast relatively untouched and had Genesis 3 as a major showcase, so we chose this build as a foundation. With the recent launch of the 4BR, we were in a good position for the official tier list project to finally get underway.

The 4BR acknowledges that tier lists are often controversial and won't be perfect at the first iteration, if ever. We do, however, strive to study the game to the best of our ability and give a sincere opinion on the current state of affairs. As such, a tier list can be an important benchmark to look back on as the game progresses.

To illustrate this, compare the first and last tier lists for Brawl. Over the nearly 5 years separating the two, we saw the fall of top tier threats like King Dedede, R.O.B. and Mr. Game & Watch, the rise of supposed mid tiers like Captain Olimar and Zero Suit Samus and the blatant early misjudgment of Zelda's potential. Despite these major shifts, the majority of the cast did not end up that far from where they initially started.

Our community has pushed Smash 4 hard from day one, and we have more resources at our disposal than ever before, be it complete frame data, tutorials, or tournament footage. It will be interesting to see how this affects our accuracy in rating the cast, something only time will tell. All that being said, we are proud to present you the first official tier list for Smash Bros. for Wii U!

Procedure

In late December 2015, 4BR members were asked to distribute all 56 released characters across 20 tiers, with no differentiation within the same tier. Voters could place gaps wherever they wanted and there were no restrictions on the amount of characters in the same group. They had to assume play under the 1.1.3 patch with no custom moves allowed, while Miis had to be considered with their 1111 moveset only, in accordance with tournament reality at the biggest events. The 4BR at this moment has no official stance or recommendation on ruleset matters.

We agreed to let voting run until after Genesis 3, which would hopefully provide us with insights into especially the more recent additions to the cast, most notably Cloud. During the voting process, there was a separate topic for reasoning and discussion. We also asked a small group of non-members to submit a vote, in order to involve more people at the forefront of the metagame. We ended up with 53 votes, of which 34 were American and 19 were international.

These are the people who submitted a vote:

Spoiler: List of Voters

@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster (AeroLink)
@Alphicans
@Amazing Ampharos
@Ambrose (My Smash Corner)
@ASC | Red Ryu
@Camalange
@CHOMPY
@CYVE
@Dabuz
@DtJ XeroXen
@D1
@earth_tyt (Earth)
@False
@Fox Is Openly Deceptive
@gsmVoiD (VoiD)
@istudying
@John123456
@Katakiri
@k9.
@Liberation
Marc
@Meru.
@Mister Eric
@Mr-R
@Myran
@NAKAT
@NickRiddle
@nietono
@qb9b
@Ranai
@Raziek
@Rayquaza07
@Remzi (VABengal)
@rintarosu10 (RIN)
@san.
@Seagull Joe
Shaya
@Slice~ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Spinosaurus
@SS_and_TH (Komorikiri)
@TA~Mav
@The calm tyrant... (Tyrant)
@TheReflexWonder
@Thinkaman
@Trela
@UltimateRazer (GrimTurtle)
@vyQ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Xiivi
@Xzax Kasrani
@Zan-
@Zigsta
@---
@-6WX-

Spoiler: Breakdown by region

USA
Atlantic North: 12
Midwest: 8
Pacific West: 7
Southwest: 4
Atlantic South: 3

International
Europe: 8
Japan: 6
Canada: 3
Australia: 2

Note that we will not release individual votes, but any voter is free to share his own vote with the public. The most notable abstainee was @TSM ZeRo, who felt it was still too early for a tier list.

Results

Shaya processed the votes and found these average placements, standard deviations and gaps between average placements for the cast:

Spoiler: Raw voting data

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Zero Suit Samus | 19.46 | 0.708 | 0.538
Rosalina | 18.77 | 0.87 | 0.687
Ryu | 17.95 | 1.103 | 0.82
Pikachu | 17.86 | 1.065 | 0.099
Sonic | 17.83 | 1.269 | 0.021
Fox | 17.52 | 1.146 | 0.313
Mario | 17.51 | 1.108 | 0.014
Diddy Kong | 17.43 | 0.998 | 0.082
Meta Knight | 17.12 | 1.489 | 0.307
Villager | 16.52 | 1.614 | 0.597
Cloud | 16.5 | 1.657 | 0.023
Ness | 16.39 | 1.502 | 0.11
Captain Falcon | 15.16 | 1.767 | 1.228
Yoshi | 15.15 | 1.893 | 0.013
Luigi | 14.27 | 1.996 | 0.881
Dark Pit | 13.89 | 2.138 | 0.381
Pit | 13.88 | 2.308 | 0.006
Peach | 13.75 | 2.115 | 0.133
R.O.B. | 13.63 | 2.221 | 0.12
Wario | 13.56 | 1.898 | 0.067
Toon Link | 13.2 | 2.416 | 0.357
Lucario | 12.92 | 2.224 | 0.285
Olimar | 12.47 | 2.452 | 0.454
Greninja | 12.25 | 2.633 | 0.215
Ike | 12.12 | 2.425 | 0.126
Donkey Kong | 11.8 | 2.252 | 0.325
Mega Man | 11.41 | 2.159 | 0.386
Pac-Man | 11.29 | 2.278 | 0.124
Bowser | 10.81 | 2.66 | 0.477
Robin | 10.17 | 2.722 | 0.642
Roy | 9.29 | 3.209 | 0.883
Kirby | 9.1 | 3.388 | 0.183
Bowser Jr. | 8.93 | 2.671 | 0.176
Mr. Game & Watch | 8.72 | 2.47 | 0.21
Lucas | 8.65 | 2.993 | 0.071
Mewtwo | 8.35 | 2.666 | 0.297
Falco | 8.12 | 3.026 | 0.232
Wii Fit Trainer | 8.08 | 2.674 | 0.037
Shulk | 7.75 | 2.926 | 0.325
Marth | 7.72 | 2.237 | 0.038
Link | 7.47 | 2.474 | 0.249
Duck Hunt Dog | 7.18 | 3.11 | 0.283
Little Mac | 7.18 | 2.633 | 0.009
Dr. Mario | 7.14 | 2.437 | 0.033
King Dedede | 6.04 | 2.721 | 1.107
Lucina | 5.59 | 2.547 | 0.447
Mii Brawler | 5.01 | 2.952 | 0.584
Charizard | 4.79 | 2.255 | 0.218
Palutena | 4.78 | 2.199 | 0.008
Samus | 4.12 | 1.942 | 0.656
Mii Gunner | 3.6 | 2.153 | 0.525
Mii Swordsman | 3.32 | 2.054 | 0.282
Ganondorf | 3.23 | 1.675 | 0.082
Jigglypuff | 2.79 | 2.035 | 0.448
Zelda | 1.96 | 1.259 | 0.828

A standard deviation of (close to) 0 means that voters generally placed the character close to the mean, while a higher standard deviation means that the character had a larger range of placements. Most standard deviations are over 1, indicating that we are far from a consensus.

We considered all gaps over .50 as tier separation points and those above .75 for a change in label (Top, High, etc.). However, we decided against single character tiers and the C tier occupying a "High Mid" label with just two characters. Finally, we split F tier into two based on the largest difference within that group of 14 characters.

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v1.0 (1.1.3 patch)

Top
S:

High
A:
B:

Middle
C:
D:
E:

Low
F:
G:

Bottom
H:
I:
J:

Text version:

S: Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina & Luma
A: Ryu, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
B: Villager, Cloud, Ness
C: Captain Falcon, Yoshi
D: Luigi, Dark Pit, Pit, Peach, R.O.B., Wario, Toon Link, Lucario
E: Captain Olimar, Greninja, Ike, Donkey Kong, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Bowser, Robin
F: Roy, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Mewtwo, Falco, Wii Fit Trainer
G: Shulk, Marth, Link, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dr. Mario
H: King Dedede, Lucina
I: Mii Brawler, Charizard, Palutena
J: Samus, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Zelda

Graphic version:

Conclusion

The first year of Smash 4 has been an absolute rollercoaster, with players flocking from Bowser to Diddy Kong to Sheik to Luigi to Donkey Kong to Sheik again. With the completion of the cast on the horizon and the nerfs and buffs slowing to a halt, the game can be expected to come to full fruition in 2016. We can't wait to see the Smash 4 tier list evolve over the years as Smashers all over the world rise to the challenge -- and with them, their respective characters.

What do you think of the tier list? Would you have placed any characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will also include a more in-depth analysis of the results with statements by 4BR members.

Major thanks go out to Shaya for processing the votes, @Zigsta and @Liberation for helping with the release and @Xiivi, Shaya , and @Camalange for collecting outside votes and various odds and ends. Finally, a shoutout to all the voters for their time and input. I was proud to spearhead this project and receive help from so many dedicated people.

 

This list will likely become useless, or needs a major overhaul after the next update is released. Also, Rosalina is in the S-tier? Frankly, she's better placed at the top of the A-tier, simply because of the fact that without the Luma, her offensive game is heavily hindered; a weakness that's easily exploited by most fighters.

Idk, Ness is high tier and his biggest problem is getting rid of Luma, plus she comes back fairly fast and cripples a lot of characters, she's good where she's placed imo, especially with rising popularity and better placing. Look at what Vinnie did to FOW, who almost took out ZeRo

 

Marc Shaya
Calculating raw averages and standard deviations of placements isn't a great system, and I'd really like to see what the list would look like if you guys used a more mathematically sound system like the Perron-Frobenius theorem to make it.

Would you guys be interested in releasing the raw votes with everyone's name made anonymous? If you do so, I could run the calculation myself; if not, I could share the code I've written and help you guys run it.

You should probably PM Me+Marc more details, but for the most part I want to avoid numbers for a day or two; and 1.0 wouldn't be re-released but if the model is sound future releases could use it.

 

Will this be the patch after bayo and corrin come out? Also lucas and Kirby are too low on the list.

 

Tears from a Ganon main. I knew he wasn't great. But being only better than Jigglypuff and Zelda really hurt. At least Cloud makes a great secondary main...

 

I strongly believe that Yoshi is at least top 10. He is high tier, not mid. But I am glad that we have a tier list, and I hope to see a new one in a few months, with the characters releasing and all. That way we will have a grip on everything, since nothing new will be added.

 

This list will likely become useless, or needs a major overhaul after the next update is released. Also, Rosalina is in the S-tier? Frankly, she's better placed at the top of the A-tier, simply because of the fact that without the Luma, her offensive game is heavily hindered; a weakness that's easily exploited by most fighters.

That didn't stop the ice climbers, did it?

 

There are a few minor things here and there about this tier list that I disagree on, but over all I consider this list pretty accurate.

Inb4 Bayonetta, Corrin and the inevitable balance patch completely discredit this tier list.

 

Why do people consider Lucas top tier? (In the comments)

He's literally gotten no results, and all the dedicated Lucas mains refuse to just stick with him in tourney, NAKAT tried, hasn't pulled him out for a while, Pink Fresh is going Dark Pit because he's better, MEKOS plays Ness/Mario now because he thinks Lucas is bottom 10, FAE completely quit, Crimchild quit Lucas for Ness because he thinks he feels awful in this game...

Most people I've talked to ask me if he feels clunky in this game, and I agree. The main reason I even play him is because he's my favorite character, as much as I want to solo main him I can't because he doesn't have the tools to compete when it comes to playing to win in an optimal situation.

No, I do not hate Lucas, no I do not think he is trash, I think mediocre better describes him. No character in Smash 4 is truly bad, and when people learn to SDI his nair the footstools will become less consistent than they are currently. Without any auto cancels, and bad aerial frame data, he does not have a place in top tier or high tier. His main think he has going for him is his dthrow, which relies on grab... and he has a tether grab.

His Down Smash also only hits once, so if you shield the first hit the next 2 don't count, and nair has SDI multipliers intentionally added so you can get out of nair. His up smash also does not function as it's supposed to, with misleading tool tips that aren't correct, the move is literally broken (Think Samus U Smash in terms of functionality, but still kills if you're right on him)

This is one of the best tier lists I've seen, and I consider Lucas and Roy to be in the correct spots.

I agree with you that Lucas is placed correctly, but he does have one large benefit, which is that he doesn't get completely bodied by Rosalina like Ness does. It's worth it for Ness mains to pick up Lucas as a secondary for the Rosalina MU.

 

I need an explanation as to why Gunner is at the very bottom.
I'm always seeing it, but nobody ever explains it.

My guess is a mix of lacking results/tourney reps, although I think miis generally should be left off tier lists.

 

Guys, seriously. When was the last time a tier list changed the positions of more than five characters? The only one I can think of is the vectoring patch, and that's because they changed the game engine.

 

Do you want to build a snowman?

 

As soon as anyone actually pulls them off in a big tournament he will rise for sure, same for Greninja, but for now most people have never seen them yet.

He placed 2nd in a 100+ man tournament though. Said tournament had Greninja willing grand finals.

Edit: read "them" as him, my apologies. The footstool combo has been locked in competitive play before, most players just fumble the extension. It's pretty disappointing.

Edit 2: Greninja actually did pull a lock combo off in said tournament, actually.

 

The letter groupings are far too spread out. Like, I find it hard to see Falcon, Yoshi, Peach, Luigi as mid tiers in C and D instead of bottom high tiers at B

Other than that, eh. Not too impressed or disgusted.

 

Lucas should be much higher imo. I feel like underdeveloped characters aren't truly seen. I think this is a result of it being too early.

 

I strongly believe that Yoshi is at least top 10. He is high tier, not mid. But I am glad that we have a tier list, and I hope to see a new one in a few months, with the characters releasing and all. That way we will have a grip on everything, since nothing new will be added.

No, he is not. Yoshi is overrated and I hope the hype dies soon.

I agree with you that Lucas is placed correctly, but he does have one large benefit, which is that he doesn't get completely bodied by Rosalina like Ness does. It's worth it for Ness mains to pick up Lucas as a secondary for the Rosalina MU.

is a much more viable option. He goes even with Rosalina and is simple enough to get into and do well fast.

 

Someone help me understand why Pit keeps ending up below Dark Pit on these lists. Even if it is one place, Pit has superiority in his arrows, recovery, and f-tilt, and his side B is only marginally worse. F-tilt and arrows in particular can be used to harass recovering characters, with f-tilt being able to catch the 2-frame and possibly kill. Pit's arrows can be controlled better for essentially free damage on anyone recovering high while Dark Pit's arrows are like Falco's lasers; limited in utility but cool-looking. Dark Pit's f-tilt can set up jab locks but that's it, it's otherwise a useless midrange attack. I do realize Dark Pit is now much better vs. Rosalina but I'm not so sure that justifies being ranked as an overall better than regular Pit.

From the looks of things Pit is still better than Dark Pit, so why is Dark Pit considered better? Does his back air kill earlier or something? Does side B increase his weight or something? Does he beat Sheik or something?

 

I might have a teeny bit of bias, but I don't think Ganon is bottom 3, and some of the other placements seem off too...

Other than that and the weird organization, pretty cool list. Too bad we're going down to the supermarket on Wednesday for some Corn and Mayo...netta.
Bad puns are bad but don't sue me for reacting to this please

 

Heracross should be in the game.

 

I appreciate the fact that we've made a tier list, even if only for posterity's sake. We'll be able to see what we thought of the metagame at this point in time when we look back on everything.

That said, I would recommend a change to the naming scheme. Because this game is the most balanced in the series since 64, I would argue that the naming scheme is misleading. A character in mid tier is still able to put up a good fight against a character in top tier, and often can pull off a win. It's not until we see lower tiers attempt to fight higher tier threats that the gap is as drastic as from other games.

To remedy this, I would recommend changing the tier system. Keeping the naming scheme of "Top, High, Middle, Low, Bottom", is fine (though I would consider a scheme of "Top, High, Good, Average, Low" as well), but I would completely change the lettering system to represent the tier which the character resides in. If the character resides in the High tier, for example, I would list them as either A+, A, or A-.

This would be satisfactory even for the current middle tier, which contains the majority of fighters and three tiers, C, D, and E. Under this lettering system, the tier would instead be broken up into the B+, B, and B- tiers.

With that naming scheme, the tier list would look like this:

Spoiler: Official 4BR Smash for Wii U and 3DS Tier List v1.0 (1.1.3 patch)

Top
S:

High
A+:
A:

Middle
B+:
B:
B-:

Low
C+:
C:

Bottom
D+:
D:
D-:

I believe this naming scheme would more accurately reflect the opinions of the community as the whole, which tends to claim that the entirety of the cast is viable. If this is the case, then this lettering system is a more natural way to group the characters.

In particular, the lettering system brings to mind a scholarly grading system, which reserves the letter F for a failing grade in certain countries, and a C for an acceptable, albeit not stellar, grade.

Regardless of the above criticisms, I approve of your methods for creating this tier list, and hope to see future iterations of it as time progresses. I'm particularly curious about how Bayonetta and Corrin will shake things up and about ZeRo's opinions, which I hope he will share in the future.

Cheers,
Pacack

 

Outside of the two days away from a patch thing, my only gripe is that Ryu shouldn't be top-5 til he gets close to winning a major. Right now, it's all just potential (Which by no means am I trying to say he is lacking in potential). I haven't seen a single Ryu in Top-8 at a major, let alone winning. Obviously I haven't watched every single tournament so I may have missed something, but my point still stands.

 

Outside of the two days away from a patch thing, my only gripe is that Ryu shouldn't be top-5 til he gets close to winning a major. Right now, it's all just potential (Which by no means am I trying to say he is lacking in potential). I haven't seen a single Ryu in Top-8 at a major, let alone winning. Obviously I haven't watched every single tournament so I may have missed something, but my point still stands.

9th isn't close enough for you?

This game has so many characters that top 8 should be treated like a top 4 and top 16 should be treated like a top 8 when taking results into account.

 

This is looking pretty good! I've some quibbles (Lucario seems too high, though that may be Japan, and seriously does Yoshi have like any results?), but it seems reasonably fair. Quite happy with Robin's placement, too -- maybe people will stop trying to put him in low tier now.

Couple questions, though -- what decides the cutoffs? Like, what makes Falcon and Yoshi stand in a tier of their own? If there's no differentiation within tiers, why's Sheik sharing space with Rosa and ZSS when everyone agrees she's the best by a fair margin?

 

Really good, but a would switch ryu and rossalina

 

I miss killer chaingrabs...


What kind of ZSS players you play? Magnet is unsafe at certain ranges. And it's not a frame 1 move that's used on reaction, it requires a read to ue it correctly. ZSS can just camp out with Side B and run away if she wants. Punishing goes without saying. Any non-fatty can SDI out of ZSS' Up B. PK Flash is the most punishable thing in the galaxy and it will never hit. You better shield or wait and use PKT to mess up ZSS' landing. Good luck touching ZSS when recovering.

Apparently bad ones? To be fair, SoCal doesn't really have any notable ZSS mains. Everything I've mentioned has worked for me though. Shielding her down B and then PKT is absolutely another good option if they use down B too low to reliably flash. If they come at you with it from above though, then Flash is absolutely an answer to it.

 

I am curious. How much effort, now that this is more of an official effort by such a recognized organization (smash boards), has or will be made to get this to Nintendo? I ask because it would be amazing to make some changes to add buffs, even minor ones to the lower cast so more characters are considered viable for true tournament/competitive play. Even locally, I've seen mention of people asking to play with more high tier characters just to win against other regions. This saddens me because you should be able to play with the character you want and have a reasonable chance to win with anyone instead of 10 out of over 50 characters.
It would be different if just 10 were lower tier and the majority fell in A. I know they c ant all be A, but it could be with some surgical approaches at the cast. I would hate that a year from now most people play with 15 percent of the cast because you can't win without one of those characters. Thoughts???

 

I appreciate the fact that we've made a tier list, even if only for posterity's sake. We'll be able to see what we thought of the metagame at this point in time when we look back on everything.

That said, I would recommend a change to the naming scheme. Because this game is the most balanced in the series since 64, I would argue that the naming scheme is misleading. A character in mid tier is still able to put up a good fight against a character in top tier, and often can pull off a win. It's not until we see lower tiers attempt to fight higher tier threats that the gap is as drastic as from other games.

To remedy this, I would recommend changing the tier system. Keeping the naming scheme of "Top, High, Middle, Low, Bottom", is fine (though I would consider a scheme of "Top, High, Good, Average, Low" as well), but I would completely change the lettering system to represent the tier which the character resides in. If the character resides in the High tier, for example, I would list them as either A+, A, or A-.

This would be satisfactory even for the current middle tier, which contains the majority of fighters and three tiers, C, D, and E. Under this lettering system, the tier would instead be broken up into the B+, B, and B- tiers.

With that naming scheme, the tier list would look like this:

Spoiler: Official 4BR Smash for Wii U and 3DS Tier List v1.0 (1.1.3 patch)

Top
S:

High
A+:
A:

Middle
B+:
B:
B-:

Low
C+:
C:

Bottom
D+:
D:
D-:

I believe this naming scheme would more accurately reflect the opinions of the community as the whole, which tends to claim that the entirety of the cast is viable. If this is the case, then this lettering system is a more natural way to group the characters.

In particular, the lettering system brings to mind a scholarly grading system, which reserves the letter F for a failing grade in certain countries, and a C for an acceptable, albeit not stellar, grade.

Regardless of the above criticisms, I approve of your methods for creating this tier list, and hope to see future iterations of it as time progresses. I'm particularly curious about how Bayonetta and Corrin will shake things up and about ZeRo's opinions, which I hope he will share in the future.

Cheers,
Pacack

This would be a better approach for the tier list. But yeah, I feel like it was made too early because we still have a patch coming in a few days along with Bayo and Corrin.

 

Marc Shaya
Calculating raw averages and standard deviations of placements isn't a great system, and I'd really like to see what the list would look like if you guys used a more mathematically sound system like the Perron-Frobenius theorem to make it.

Would you guys be interested in releasing the raw votes with everyone's name made anonymous? If you do so, I could run the calculation myself; if not, I could share the code I've written and help you guys run it.

Dude I've been asking them for YEARS, like 8 years, to do any sort of mathematically sound ranking system but its always just a point-average system because it takes the least effort.

I would like to see an iterative process, even just a single iteration would do well. I thought a simple Euler method would do well where they all vote and average the votes before voting again on the composition of each tier individually.

It would condense the list and allow people to focus on particular areas of concern that the point average method creates, primarily the yoshi and falcon area. They should definitely iterate B, C and D tier again with those characters and see if they end up with the same results.

 

Donkey kong and ike that low?? I mean granted they struggle against sheik but dk will and ryo show their potential, and they get results too..

All that aside tho, i think that over all its a really solid list. Excited to see if my og jiggs gets some much needed jigglyBUFFS (villager is fun and all but come on, jiggs doesn't even help as a secondary at this point). *Crossing my fingers*

 

The tier list looks okay. Top, High, and Mid contain character's that I think have generally been agreed on to be in the viable or semi-viable half of the cast. Lower end of the list feels a bit iffy for me, but I'm not really surprised by that.

I'm not really sure why people are getting so mad about the time they chose to release this, it's not like you put any effort into making this list so if they don't mind potentially having to shift it around a bit in a couple days I don't see the problem.

Fact is even without an incoming patch it's very doubtful that this would be the final tier list, characters are going to be shifted around regardless of a balance patch. At the very least this list will be a nice starting point to work from for the later versions of the tier list.

 

No offense, but S+A~J is far too drastic and insinuates huge differences between top/bottom tiers. I assume it was done this way due to the huge roster needing to be organized. All in all, it seems inaccurate due to the huge battle proficiency gap that S+A~J implies.

Sm4sh is probably the most balanced (even with annoying characters) iteration of Official Smash. So using S, A+, A, A-, B+, B, B-, C+, C would've been more ideal if you really wanted a list that:
1) Sorts all characters on one tier list.

2) Doesn't overcrowd tier segments.

3) Allows for more accurate placing.

4) Implies low tier vs high tier is not a crazy hard or impossible feat.

5) Doesn't use almost 39% of the alphabet.

 

9th isn't close enough for you?

This game has so many characters that top 8 should be treated like a top 4 and top 16 should be treated like a top 8 when taking results into account.

How many majors have Ryus placed 9th though?

 

Shulk not being considered bottom tier is all I could ever ask for, really.

Oh but the whole "let's have a whole tier for like two characters" for anything other than S tier is silly.

 

Apparently bad ones? To be fair, SoCal doesn't really have any notable ZSS mains. Everything I've mentioned has worked for me though. Shielding her down B and then PKT is absolutely another good option if they use down B too low to reliably flash. If they come at you with it from above though, then Flash is absolutely an answer to it.

Fair enough, my local scene doesn't have top quality ZSS either. PK Flash is still too slow to use reliably.

 

Let's not let the SSBWiki take this with viability.

First off, Ganondorf is not in the bottom three characters; he's a low tier, if not a lower middle tier character.

Then they have the audacity to put bottom tier Robin into high tier!?

Ooh, and Link in Low Tier when he's been agreed to be middle tier or upper middle?

Ryu...in top...five...WHAT?!

Game and Watch, Kirby and Little Mac in low tier? Where are their accurate bottom tier placements?

King Dedede's meant to be in the bottom five, you know.

Like seriously, 4BR, you need to really disband and remake yourself.
A tier list like this is actually unacceptable.

"Generally accepted" does not matter. Most of this "generally" (including me) are not high level players. If these high level players (who have more experience and knowledge than you in smash) think differently, it doesn't mean this tier list is bad. In my opinion, I think it's a great tier list.

 

How many majors have Ryus placed 9th though?

He got 9th at TBH5 and Paragon LA, 13th at MLG, and 17th at G3. He also got 5th at Umebura F.A.T.

 

Someone help me understand why Pit keeps ending up below Dark Pit on these lists. Even if it is one place, Pit has superiority in his arrows, recovery, and f-tilt, and his side B is only marginally worse. F-tilt and arrows in particular can be used to harass recovering characters, with f-tilt being able to catch the 2-frame and possibly kill. Pit's arrows can be controlled better for essentially free damage on anyone recovering high while Dark Pit's arrows are like Falco's lasers; limited in utility but cool-looking. Dark Pit's f-tilt can set up jab locks but that's it, it's otherwise a useless midrange attack. I do realize Dark Pit is now much better vs. Rosalina but I'm not so sure that justifies being ranked as an overall better than regular Pit.

From the looks of things Pit is still better than Dark Pit, so why is Dark Pit considered better? Does his back air kill earlier or something? Does side B increase his weight or something? Does he beat Sheik or something?

*shrugs* Just combine the two's placing and be done with it...

No gigantic nitpicks myself besides Captain Falcon and Yoshi.

*scrolls down* And Miis. WTF. Just don't bother placing them if everybody voting doesn't know what to do with them.

 

I still believe Zelda isn't the worst. Regardless whether she is or not she's still fun time

 

Is it relevant whether Jigglypuff or Zelda is the worst? Both are garbage.

 

Ryu.......... I guess I don't pay as much attention to the competitive scene as I thought because I did NOT see that coming. Top 3 were so obvious, it's a bit sad but then Ryu comes in at 4 and I'm just like O_o'. If Ryu weren't there, My top 5 would've been pretty much exactly right.

Also, WTF Bowser is mid tier?!? What's worse is it's low mid tier. I mean, I wasn't expecting top tier but I was expecting maybe Low high tier, not low mid tier.

Also, WTF Brawler is bottom tier?!?!? Have I just been living under a rock all this time? Last I checked he was high tier.

In less surprising but still surprising news, Cloud is much higher than I thought he'd be, as is Palutena strangely. (I thought she was low bottom tier. Like bottom 5) Zelda is the worst character? ........eh..... I'm not sure but in this case I cant really argue.

Overall, this list confuses me in several ways. Otherwise, I don't really have a problem with it. Except maybe that it was to soon to make a tier list.

 

Dude I've been asking them for YEARS, like 8 years, to do any sort of mathematically sound ranking system but its always just a point-average system because it takes the least effort.

I would like to see an iterative process, even just a single iteration would do well. I thought a simple Euler method would do well where they all vote and average the votes before voting again on the composition of each tier individually.

It would condense the list and allow people to focus on particular areas of concern that the point average method creates, primarily the yoshi and falcon area. They should definitely iterate B, C and D tier again with those characters and see if they end up with the same results.

Interesting. The beauty of P-F is that the data they've already collected is all that's needed - once you process what's there, you just calculate the dominant eigenvector and you have your result.

Either way, I'm PMing Shaya and Marc the details, so hopefully they can implement something better than raw averaging for future tier lists.