First Impressions

[andrewajt62]

As an IC main in Melee here are my initial thoughts on Ice Climbers:
- I like how most of the melee desyncs work. I have no idea how to do the Brawl desyncs. The nanapult (jumping forward blizzard) seems harder to do but works
- Handoffs timing is very strange and tighter
- Glad up throw to reverse f smash works
- Nana seems pretty much the same, although she can grab the ledge with Popo, has the brawl up b, and can up b on her own.
- The down throw SoPo chaingrab seems to still work on some characters (poor Shiek)
- Melee Up b out of shield desync doesn't work :l. This was used in Melee to have Nana grab the ledge.
- Down throw dair is even more of a joke (completely DI-able in Melee anyway)
- Seems hard to connect a d throw to an up smash. Not even sure if you can now.
- Charging an f smash (with A and analog stick) with Nana while popo is grabbing seems to have different timing, but it's manageable
- The Ice Climbers had awful hitboxes in Melee; I wonder if they are improved in PM?
- Really don't have any chaingrabs
- Having the Brawl graphics is very nice.
- First iteration of the Ice Climbers without an infinite combo
- SoPo side b seems to require more inputs per second (not 100% sure, maybe I'm not used to the graphics. I can still get the full height tho).

Overall seems like Melee Ice Climbers with a few major nerfs and some slight buffs (mostly with Nana). This isn't a changelog or anything I compiled, just my first impressions. I think they aren't as good as Melee but are still viable for competitive PM. The fundamentals are the same (and are still very good, i.e up air, d smash, great potential to rack of damage and KO) but some of their more specific abilities (chaingrabs, infinites) are removed. Although I wish they still had all of their Melee tricks, I think they are still solid and I plan to main them in PM as well.

 

[cmart]

Glad you're planning on exploring them. From the beginning we knew Ice Climbers were going to be a strange proposition since getting rid of Infinites and being unable to replicate Nana's full Melee behavior made a Melee port impossible. We've done our best trying to improve them in other ways to ensure they're still a fun and worthwhile character.

Some things you seemed to pick up on:
- All their hitboxes were improved from Melee, using the Brawl hitbox positioning as guide
- Handoffs near the ledge are possible, but the timings are different than either Melee or Brawl, mostly due to:
- Down Throw has a different release point than Melee, making some things more difficult. You may have to experiment with different Nana positioning to get things to link.

 

[ssbkid~]

Two things!

- To connect Dthrow into up smash, you need to do a "Hadouken" motion into an up smash after the grab. This will make Popo Dthrow while Nana runs forward where you're now able to connect it.

-As an alternative means of getting Nana into the ledge by herself over pressing up b out of shield, try this. Quickly dash in the ledge's direction and pivot. Nana will instantly drop to the ledge and will stay there as long as you want. Its a bit hard to do as you need to be relatively close and facing the ledge, but its very fast and you couldn't really do it in melee cause Nana would always jump as soon as she got to the edge.

 

[andrewajt62]

The more I play around with them the more happy I'm becoming with them. I just figured out the brawl dash dance desync, and the potential for alternating blizzards is ferocious. I can tell that the hitboxes are improved. I can get the "Hadouken" up smash with nana off of down throw, although this sacrifices the ability to charge the up smash. I am able to get the pivot with Nana to the ledge somewhat consistently now. I've found that the SoPo side b now has much more potential to gain height, although it's difficult to do consistently. I can't wait to see how I do in tournament with them, but for today I'm very satisfied with how they have been implemented into PM.

 

[ssbkid~]

I'm also very exited to see how they develop and the cool things people will discover about them. It seems like with the sheer amount of ways to desynch the Ice Climbers now, I wouldn't be surprised to see players constantly controlling each Climber separately almost as if there really were two players using them.

 

[SSS]

I've always wanted ICs to be desync based instead of chaingrab-based. I'm glad this is happening. I don't play them, but I'm glad they're here.

 

[Rawkuz]

As someone who has never used them, i didnt think they were this fun to use. Makes me want to go back to melee to see the difference.

 

[andrewajt62]

Posted this on the bug report section, as this is a real problem with them in 3.0:

"One problem which I hope can be fixed however is that some timings of the grab "combos" are overly specific. For example, to do the most damage with a grab at 0%, you have to forward throw into f smash for 25%, and the time window for that VERY tiny, not to mention it's different for every character. If you time it wrong, it only does a small fraction of the potential percent. With F throw, you deal 11% if you do the f smash too early, 7% if you do it too late, and 25% if you have perfect timing.

The same applies for down throw to fsmash/dsmash, you need to have a very specific timing for the f/d smash to get the full percent. If you do down throw to uncharged f smash it does 7%, unless you have perfect timing then it does 20%. It shouldn't be that difficult. This is caused by Nana's moves doing less damage while the opponent is being held in a grab. I think their grab game should be restored to Melee's so that these combos are more manageable. Also you can't charge an up smash from a grab, since you have to have Nana run forward to connect the up smash. I'm OK with no wobbling in PM, but handoffs and down throw dair is much worse now as well.

The best way to fix the grab smash combo percents would probably just to make it so the smashes did the same damage while the opponent is locked in a grab/being thrown."

 

[DerfMidWest]

Thoughts of the Derf:
I like the way they feel. Hitboxes are definitely improved and sopo play is fantastic.
Their dash is awesome now.
As a technical melee IC, I really enjoy the way the desyncs work in pm.
Oh brawl blizzard… you so sexy.

My main problems with the ICs, so far:
their wavedash feels super laggy, but I like that they are more dash oriented now.
Downthrow feels weird. It's not bad, it'll just take adjusting.
I have to relearn handoffs for this game >.<, also not bad, just need to adjust still.

downsmash feels so slow.

other than that, I'm really enjoying them.
Probably still gonna main mewtwo though

 

[jtm94]

I was just starting to learn ICs in Melee and some dthrow handoffs, but they feel almost alien in PM and it kind of discourages me v.v
I'm just gonna have to stay on my grind, because the learning curve is steep with this one.. I guess I will try to learn desyncs to the best of my ability if the grabs aren't the way to go.

 

[Megapants]

I agree that the timing for smashing off a grab is too tight and really hurts ICs most fundamental grab follow up. I still can't get dthrow dsmash right and it's really disappointing to see only such weak damage off a BnB combo like that.

 

[Nemy]

My only problem is that the desynchs seem... Clunky. Like in brawl it seems a bit more smooth when making the climbers alternate attacks. idk how to explain it really. It probably has something to do with nana being better at staying closer to popo, which in that case im fine with it. Its not too much of a problem really, I can get used to it.

Also you can down throw and then have nana get a regrab just like in brawl, but she will throw the opponent as soon as she gets them, it seems like she does uthrow the most. I can sometimes follow it up with uair, but other than that I havent found too much of a reason to use dthrow>regrab.

 

[jtm94]

I found that down throw can only be regrabbed if nana dashes or moves forward and being that she rethrows immediately they don't have infinite handoffs and at beast 2 could be linked imo, but I could just be bad and the new timings are hard to adjust to.

I DO LIKE, the roll desynch. It is SUPER easy. All you do is roll and buffer any attack, I like side smash or neutral b and one will do the move allowing really easy desyncs.

 

[andrewajt62]

The handoff timing seems super ridiculous now that I'm testing it more. It is far easier in Melee, and even in Melee it is still very difficult, but manageable for experienced Ice Climber mains like many of us. I'm not sure if it's even realistic to be able to get the PM timing consistently.

The main problem that is bugging me though is the smash attacks out of grabs, like down throw f smash, being buggy and only doing 7%. Here's my bug report post on that: http://smashboards.com/threads/ice-climbers-smash-from-grab-combos.343581/

Lastly, Nana keeps trying to reunite with Popo when he is offstage, only for her to fall and kill herself. Also, she rarely uses side b, even when it's the obvious choice, although she can now by herself. I'm guessing Ice Climbers are understandably one of the most difficult characters to code, so I'm hoping the grab-smash combos and Nana AI can be fixed, as well as maybe making the throws more like Melee so that handoffs, down throw dair, and down throw to charged up smash can work properly.

 

[jtm94]

When Nana is separate from Popo and falling she always dies by using UpB.
The desynchs are really cool, but idk how to apply the grab game appropriately now..

 

[hot$]

I wish the timing wasn't so precise. A future adjustment would be nice. But hell, maybe more practice is what I need?

 

[Ace76]

The scary thing is, ice climbers weren't even top tier in brawl or melee when they had infinites. Now they are more difficult to do basic things with as well? I don't think the buffs compensate the lost of an infinite and increase in difficulty.

 

[Nemy]

I dont know guys, they have a pretty good combo game now. That tied in with desynchs makes them pretty good. This is the first time that they arent completly grab based. Theyre a new character and we have to treat them as such. Practice your combo game and desynchs. We can rack up damage pretty fast.

A couple things I do alot are Nair>Nair>land>Ddance desynch an ice block. This lets you either run behind the ice block for a follow up or cover more ground for a tech chase.

Also down throw>nana sideB is pretty good and lets you regrab often.

Popo blizzard + nana Fair is a bawl BnB desynch and still feels like a reliable wall.

Also I see ALOT of people, not just on smashboards, calling the whole up b death thing a bug. Its not a bug, its something that happens in brawl if the climbers arent completly synched or if nana trys to self recover and you up b within a certain window of that. The best way to avoid is to synch them up with uair and THEN recover. Dont always rely on up b to recover, squall hammer is an insane recovery and should always be used when youre really low to avoid Nana sacrificing herself. We can rise basically from the bottom of FD, and Sopo has a decent rise now as well.

 

[DerfMidWest]

As I said before, I'm really a fan of their combo game, but not their grab game. It's a lot more lacking, I find myself limited to tech-chase follow ups or juggling (neither of which are bad and are the core of my sopo play in melee), I just wish I at least had reliable chaingrabs to wrack on percent. But you don't have the pressure element you did in melee or brawl where people were terrified of you for fear of being grabbed and 0-deathed.

from a more technical melee IC standpoint, I am a fan of desyncs, however the brawl Iceblock takes adjusting, in melee the iceblocks released at a higher angle and fell slower (traveling similar to mario's fireballs) which was very helpful for comboing and interrupting approaches.

many desyncs do feel odd now, and I haven't seemed to find the correct timing for several (such as the ftilt guard desync)

you also no longer have the nana rocket due to both climbers grabbing the ledge
I still love the ICs, they just don't quite feel like the ice climbers yet.

 

[andrewajt62]

Sometimes when Nana kills herself it's completely not your fault. For example I was very high up and horizantally to the left of FD and she just jumps out there like an idiot and kills herself. That is unquestionably a bug. I think their throws should be more like Melee in terms of timing, speed, direction ect. We're trying to do Melee combos (F/D throw handoffs, down throw dair, down throw f smash) with Brawl throws and it's not working as intended. Handoffs as they are right now are far from practical non-TAS.

 

[Nemy]

Sometimes when Nana kills herself it's completely not your fault. For example I was very high up and horizantally to the left of FD and she just jumps out there like an idiot and kills herself. That is unquestionably a bug. I think their throws should be more like Melee in terms of timing, speed, direction ect. We're trying to do Melee combos (F/D throw handoffs, down throw dair, down throw f smash) with Brawl throws and it's not working as intended. Handoffs as they are right now are far from practical non-TAS.

Down throw fsmash does work, but down throw dair doesnt work because they have nana programmed to stick closer to you. And as for the throw timings, as a brawl ICs main, I think they feel somewhat inbetween melee and brawl, theyre def not the same. PM is its own game and were just gonna have to figure out what we can make of the climbers. I can land down throw handoff everytime, but ive yet to land a proper fthrow handoff.

Also, it is still possible to land down throw > nana spike on and off stage gou just have to make sure nana jumps forward as well. The forward air is slightly different from brawl, but it is still useful in regards to dthrow>fair/spike

 

[the_irish_dude]

Has anyone gotten off a successful handoff? Popo>nana>popo>nana? I know they took out the infinite chains but I've only been able to do a single and not a double handoff.

Playing ICs isn't fun for me in PM as it was in melee. Or even in brawl if i ever picked it up

 

[Nemy]

Has anyone gotten off a successful handoff? Popo>nana>popo>nana? I know they took out the infinite chains but I've only been able to do a single and not a double handoff.

Playing ICs isn't fun for me in PM as it was in melee. Or even in brawl if i ever picked it up

Practice your combos/desync walls/setups. ICs are brand new and from what im seeing from playing people with them so far, nobody can deal with them. Not easily at least.

As for your handoff question, from what I see Nana does uthrow mid stage and throws them offstage when towards the edge. I guess if if youre on the edge maybe you can time it and get another handoff, but that would be pretty impractical.

 

[Ridel]

Impressions:

Mehhhhh

The Up-B is taking some getting use to.

 

[Hylian]

Hey guys, just wanted to mention that we recently fixed some grab release points that were making certain chaingrabs and handoffs really hard/impossible and whenever we do our bug update you guys should see some new/better results from your grab combos, don't get discouraged yet .

 

[JB IV]

^Yeah!!1!One!

 

[Kyu Puff]

I got a chance to play them a little bit, albeit on a laggy tv. Here are some things I would like to see changed:

-Solo Popo up+b startup reduced to match melee. It seems more jolty and less useful for sweetspotting the ledge now.
-Ice block fall speed reduced to match melee. I don't really understand why they did this; ice blocks that immediately drop to the ground are almost useless. Might be better if you remove the pop-up jump so that they can be land-canceled.
-F-air hitbox should extend lower at the end of the animation so that the hammer can hit people underneath platforms.
-Wavedash seems off? Could've been the lag, but I've also played melee on laggy tvs and it seemed slower/less slidy than it should be. Hopefully I'll get to test it on a decent set-up to make sure their movement feels right.

 

[Hylian]

Wavedash feels fine to me, good input though.

 

[the_irish_dude]

so far my biggest "concerns" are the Ice Blocks that fall immediately, and as you said Hylian the handoff timing. if anything keep it brawl style since it takes more precise timing than in melee. only big issue with the grabs are when your opponent bounces off the ground from a Dthrow. they seem to go way too far out on the recoil.

 

[Nemy]

Possible bug where, when using up b to recover, nana will scar through FD causing Popo to die. Anyone else have this happen?

 

[Hylian]

Possible bug where, when using up b to recover, nana will scar through FD causing Popo to die. Anyone else have this happen?

If you can, could you get this recorded? I haven't seen this.

 

[Nemy]

If you can, could you get this recorded? I haven't seen this.

Its only happened to me once, so it might be hard to re-create. Ill work on it.

 

[DerfMidWest]

still having a lot of trouble getting used to the character….
I'm glad to hear the grab release points will be fixed though, will definitely give them another try once the bug fix is released <3

things that are really bothering me right now (not addressing the throw stuff, because that's been addressed) are the ice blocks and the way their wavedash feels.

In melee the way Iceblocks stayed in the air for awhile was really important. In P:M right now they just fall to fast and aren't traveling at a useful angle.

wavedash just doesn't feel fast enough. It makes them feel a lot slower on the ground than they should.

I miss some of my melee desyncs, but I'm pretty ok with everything else.

 

[andrewajt62]

When Popo is offstage Nana will just fall to her death in attempt to re-unite with him, even in situation's where Popo is high up and has no way to go get her. I think she should just wait on stage.

 

[the_irish_dude]

ive noticed that while your on stage and nana is off while the two are still synced she will try and do everything you do. for instance if you try and wavedash while she is off stage and you are on, she will just dodge. hoping that maybe if popo and nana are that far apart or in those scenarios her AI will kick in so she can attempt to recover with out us having to worry about her getting back while we defend ourselves from the opponent?

 

[JB IV]

ive noticed that while your on stage and nana is off while the two are still synced she will try and do everything you do. for instance if you try and wavedash while she is off stage and you are on, she will just dodge. hoping that maybe if popo and nana are that far apart or in those scenarios her AI will kick in so she can attempt to recover with out us having to worry about her getting back while we defend ourselves from the opponent?

Pretty sure that is what she is supposed to do. Otherwise Nana wouldn't be able to dodge/waveland/l-cancel in those scenarios.

 

[Cha0tic313]

Hylian da best!