Fire and Lightning 2: DC Comics vs Pokemon Conquest Game over DC Comics Wins!

[Gova]

@dabuz because quoting singular replies out of a huge post is obnoxious
No, you (and others for that matter) are blowing this Raziek thing way out of proportion. We never intended to spend that much time on what Raziek did, it was simply something that was ugly to us (we even commented about how we did see improvement in how his posts looked later on). As we said, our preferred pressure target is still soup's slot/BLS.
Your later rant about our soup "case" is already elaborated on.

Did you?, pls link ty

@ Gova yo dawg, I was doing law homework (and I know nothing about law), then I went to bed.

k, well maybe now you know a little more about the law and can use it to your advantage

@ Gova What's your current view of the game overall? What do you make of Potassium's case on Gorf? BLS's case on MiR?

i see the game split between soup's slot and MiR. i'm not buying soup scum as this is very similar to something that happened in scott pilgrim mafia to badwolf. if soups emotional play is the core of soup = scum then i'd advise you to look at the flowchart i made for scott pilgrim mafia where a situation like this happened before

i like potassium's direction, fits with my flow chart obv, not calling gorf scum for it tho

BLS, case is just him agreeing with soup and raz about MiR. of course I think it has merit because i also made similar arguments and have said as much but of course gets no love :heartbreak:

that being said

Vote: Make it Rain

that's where i stand

best course of action imo,

 

[Kantrip]

Someone convince me on Politoed scum, I'm not seeing it

 

[Gova]

@ Kantrip

analyze this post

:teehee:

 

[Kantrip]

@ Kantrip

analyze this post

:teehee:

You cute slipped, that's a total adorable tell.

 

[Gova]

okay now if you had ignored it and then i asked you to analyze it later but you refused because it was pointless

i would call you bad/scummy/synonym

and that was an ELI5: of why i don't like MiR pushing raz

soup wagon is null, someone was gonna get wagoned,

soup emotional arguments could have merit depending on who you ask, i personally dont think they do

 

[Gova]

meh, @ Kantrip , you're probs better off going back and re-reading it. i don't feel like i did it justice

 

[Kantrip]

I liked your method there though, even if it didn't work too well with the message you were trying to convey.

So is the main point against Politoed their push against Raz?

 

[Gova]

yeah, pretty much

i dont know if you were in scott pilgrim mafia but pushing soup for his emotional play is not something im keen on

marshy as scum did the same thing to badwolf who was town

marshy got copped for it that night by J

 

[Kantrip]

Yeah I was in that game and I vaguely remember that.

Politoed isn't the only slot pushing soup for his emotional play, but he is one of the only slots doing it who should know better. I think the other one is Gorf. There was some reason I liked Politoed's approach to it better though that I can't recall. I think it was more because he was trying to show others what he saw while Gorf was just talking soup into the ground about why he was scum. It's generally more townie when someone is trying to showcase their reads to the rest of town rather than just spending their time telling their scumread why they are scum.

When I was reading I saw the Toed vs Raz as TvT where Raziek looked better just because he was right and Politoed was being stupid. The distinction is that I can't see the scum intent for Politoed tunneling Raziek for something as stupid as not answering a dumb RVS question. It's strange behaviour for sure but I'm yet to be convinced that it's scum motivated.

 

[Kantrip]

I've yet to read past the point where Handorin comes into the question in-depth (though I skimmed a bit and saw a lot of contradictions in Hando's reads/reasoning). I'll get at that probably this evening and see where I stand with Hando.

Other than that I can see myself lynching Gorf, dabuz, Scary, HollowNote, and maybe Politoed.

Back later

 

[Gova]

i guess, i can see some, but gonna stick to what's in thread tho

 

[Top Deck BLS]

Reasoning for putting Raziek on the spot is because Raziek has trouble getting into games, was MiR's way to help Raziek make a stance. Could be a way to catch Raziek scum if Raziek slips, but it's more likely to awkwardly put pressure on Raziek.

Holy cow. I was trying to get MiR to talk about their reasoning for asking Raz and Dabuz actually brought up something before I could.

The question was loaded. Raz can ignore it, which gets him called out by MiR as the game played out. Or he can claim it's a pressure vote and you're doing it for reactions, which immediately destroys what pressure you amounted and similarly gets him on MiR's ****list. There's no positive there.




I'll actually be around shortly.

 

[Top Deck BLS]

What do you guys think of Kantrip?

Town, atm. Would take something solid to change my read.

 

[Gova]

o nvm yeah @ Kantrip read above post by BLS with dabuz' quote

it's a trap obv

or maybe not so obv since raziek might have fallen into it

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Anti-town is agains town. There are only two sides, there's no in between...

If he doesnt offer an explanation or reasoning, Im voting on him.

I mean I know where you're coming from but think about JTB in tranquility. His play was incredibly anti town. But it wasn't scummy. He just isn't complying. Get the answer out of em all you want but it's not scummy.

 

[Gargaglione]

I mean I know where you're coming from but think about JTB in tranquility. His play was incredibly anti town. But it wasn't scummy. He just isn't complying. Get the answer out of em all you want but it's not scummy.

But it iiiis scummy. If youre townie, you should have no reason to not explain because all you want to do is find scum and convince others of that. And if you dont have enough time or care to explain you just shouldnt be playing.

 

[Fandangox]

i see the game split between soup's slot and MiR. i'm not buying soup scum as this is very similar to something that happened in scott pilgrim mafia to badwolf. if soups emotional play is the core of soup = scum then i'd advise you to look at the flowchart i made for scott pilgrim mafia where a situation like this happened before

i like potassium's direction, fits with my flow chart obv, not calling gorf scum for it tho

BLS, case is just him agreeing with soup and raz about MiR. of course I think it has merit because i also made similar arguments and have said as much but of course gets no love :heartbreak:

that being said

Vote: Make it Rain

that's where i stand

best course of action imo,

Okay so far it seems pretty much everyone (either on the wagon, against the wagon, or neutral about it) Has said that this is something Soup would have done regardless of alignment. I am still wary of his slot because he seemed worried that the wagon formed, but just because it was on him, as Gorf and I pointed out.

I can see the case on MiR, but honestly despite how long he has latched onto it, his involvement with the soup wagon and the raz complain is what got the game started, so I don't think lynching him is a good course of action.

 

[Gova]

uh okay? you saying scum can't start the game? just because he got the game started doesnt mean he's town

 

[Kantrip]

o nvm yeah @ Kantrip read above post by BLS with dabuz' quote

it's a trap obv

or maybe not so obv since raziek might have fallen into it

That makes sense. It was a loaded question and latching onto Raziek for not answering is whack as all hell but I don't see what scumToed would be going for. Mislynching Raz? Painting him in a bad light so no one will listen to him?

@ #HBC | Gorf I forget, are you on board with Politoed scum? Would you lynch dabuz?

 

[Fandangox]

Well obviously they can, I just don't see it as something that would be favorable for scum to do.

 

[Gova]

taco.png

why not both

 

[Kantrip]

Well obviously they can, I just don't see it as something that would be favorable for scum to do.

What disadvantage does it put them at? Controlling which wagons are the early ones? Being seen as town for doing stuff?

Wait those are positives... um, help me out here.

 

[Gova]

uh, starting the game would be favorable for scum, if they take control of the game it's good for them

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

But it iiiis scummy. If youre townie, you should have no reason to not explain because all you want to do is find scum and convince others of that. And if you dont have enough time or care to explain you just shouldnt be playing.

In tranquility alone:

Soup
Red Ruy
Vinyl
JTB
BSP

All town, all played in an unfavorable way. You will get yourself caught in a really uncomfortable rut of bad reads if you focus on those who play unfavorably as scummy. Not explaining oneself is JUST something you don't want done. That's it. If he doesn't comply he's just not helping you read him, which again, is anti town. If enough people are willing to off em for that by all meas do it. But there are more important things to worry about.

What do you think of dabuz' suspicion of you? What's your read on Kantplay?

 

[Gova]

yo gorf you fail to mention that bsp modkilled himself, we'll count that as a lynch, jtb got lynched and so did vinyl if i remember correctly.

i'd then say that maybe being anti-town isn't a good thing to do hmm

 

[Fandangox]

taco.png

why not both

How did you know I was hispanic

What disadvantage does it put them at? Controlling which wagons are the early ones? Being seen as town for doing stuff?

Wait those are positives... um, help me out here.

uh, starting the game would be favorable for scum, if they take control of the game it's good for them

Well okay I guess that's true. Being able to control the flow off the game would be an advantage. I don't bother much with the "town points" point in this particular instance cause MiR has been pursuing his Soup case and his (bizarre) Raz case. I think if it were for "town points" he would have tried to lay low after that, since its an early phase, but I think I am treading into WIFOM territory here.

But yes. Scum being able to control the beginning of the game is a legitimate reason. I'd still hear from Raz first before pursuing a MiR lynch because Raz has not said much about the game aside from his clash with MiR.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

That makes sense. It was a loaded question and latching onto Raziek for not answering is whack as all hell but I don't see what scumToed would be going for. Mislynching Raz? Painting him in a bad light so no one will listen to him?

@ #HBC | Gorf I forget, are you on board with Politoed scum? Would you lynch dabuz?

No yes

I never said it wasn't good to do. My point is anti town =/= scummy. They weren't scummy. They were anti town. Hando isn't scummy, which Garg is insinuating. He's anti town.

 

[Gova]

yo if they weren't scummy why were they lynched tho

i mean if you could differentiate between anti-town and scum you'd think people would do it and lynch what is scummy

 

[Kantrip]

yo if they weren't scummy why were they lynched tho

i mean if you could differentiate between anti-town and scum you'd think people would do it and lynch what is scummy

But you can, with the magic of intent!

 

[Gova]

anyone who uses magic is a witch and obviously needs to be burned

this game is also known as witch-hunt

yeah

#gotem

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

yo if they weren't scummy why were they lynched tho

Cuz anti town is ****ing annoying to keep around, and having anti town slots laying around sucks. Cello would intentionally lynch people off that wouldn't comply with him if it was early enough to do so. I'll lynch off anti town if the people I find scummy lack support come lynch time but I'll know and state that it's cuz that slot just needs to piss off, rather than them being scummy.

i mean if you could differentiate between anti-town and scum you'd think people would do it and lynch what is scummy

That's what I'm saying!

 

[Gargaglione]

In tranquility alone:

Soup
Red Ruy
Vinyl
JTB
BSP

All town, all played in an unfavorable way. You will get yourself caught in a really uncomfortable rut of bad reads if you focus on those who play unfavorably as scummy. Not explaining oneself is JUST something you don't want done. That's it. If he doesn't comply he's just not helping you read him, which again, is anti town. If enough people are willing to off em for that by all meas do it. But there are more important things to worry about.

What do you think of dabuz' suspicion of you? What's your read on Kantplay?

Yea, they all played antitown and got lynched for it. The fact that youre defending antitown play is leading me to believe youre also not town.

dabuz is null to me at the moment. His suspicion of me was understandable as I did make a contradictory statement earlier due to my ambivalence (as I explained). I cant say anything more about that until dabuz gets back on it.

Kantplay is null to me atm. His accusations towards you were questionable, but are somewhat understandable. But yea, his content is pretty substantial and sensible.

 

[Fandangox]

Either way I think its kind of a very trivial thing. I get what Gorf is saying. Anti-Town play doesn't equal to a scummy player there are many examples of that being true, but considering the whole point is to hunt scum, I really don't see the point in differentiating a scummy play and an anti-town one. If you see someone doing something that looks anti-town you will want to call him out and read into that, cause its a play that is not being beneficial to town.

So yes, they are technically two different terms, but from my point of view it matters little since you will want to have players elaborate on their anti-townness. I think if someone is wagoned for being anti-town that player has probably reached a point where his play is scummy due to that.

Semantics.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

As an added note, you can be scummy and not be anti town. Bussing is the only example I can think of atm but mostly cuz scum tells are situational. HBC mentality doesn't exist to eliminate scum. It exists so that players who SHOULDN'T be in the game aren't. Lynching scum should always come as a priority though which is why JTB's lynch that game was so frustrating. Anti town is a null tell. Everyone was making an excuse to get him the **** out of the game, and scum took advantage of town making him the top priority.

Is it clear yet?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Yea, they all played antitown and got lynched for it. The fact that youre defending antitown play is leading me to believe youre also not town.

You're a ******. I want to lynch scum, not necessarily anti town. Plain and simple.

 

[Gargaglione]

As an added note, you can be scummy and not be anti town. Bussing is the only example I can think of atm but mostly cuz scum tells are situational. HBC mentality doesn't exist to eliminate scum. It exists so that players who SHOULDN'T be in the game aren't. Lynching scum should always come as a priority though which is why JTB's lynch that game was so frustrating. Anti town is a null tell. Everyone was making an excuse to get him the **** out of the game, and scum took advantage of town making him the top priority.

Is it clear yet?

Yea it's clear

Antitown play is not scumplay
Antitown isn't always scum.

That still doesnt really justify his play because it isnt town and if he doesnt offer an explanation I think he's being scummy. I also really dont like you defending ****ty play.

 

[Fandangox]

As an added note, you can be scummy and not be anti town. Bussing is the only example I can think of atm but mostly cuz scum tells are situational. HBC mentality doesn't exist to eliminate scum. It exists so that players who SHOULDN'T be in the game aren't. Lynching scum should always come as a priority though which is why JTB's lynch that game was so frustrating. Anti town is a null tell. Everyone was making an excuse to get him the **** out of the game, and scum took advantage of town making him the top priority.

Is it clear yet?

Yeah I get it, I am just saying discussing the semantics of it its kind of pointless, but yeah I am gonna drop that subject.

Anyway gotta catch the bus, won't be on until later.

 

[Gargaglione]

Yea it's clear

Antitown play is not scumplay
Antitown isn't always scum.

That still doesnt really justify his play because it isnt town and if he doesnt offer an explanation I think he's being scummy. I also really dont like you defending ****ty play.

You'll never really know if someone is scum or town until their dead. All you can go off of is if theyre playing town or not. So waiting for someone to be like "im deliberating to kill town" isnt ideal, because that ****s not happening. If someone plays badly, that suggests them not being town. So ya

 

[Gargaglione]

You'll never really know if someone is scum or town until their dead. All you can go off of is if theyre playing town or not. So waiting for someone to be like "im deliberating to kill town" isnt ideal, because that ****s not happening. If someone plays badly, that suggests them not being town. So ya

Edwop: they're dead

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Listen. I GET that anti town play shouldn't just be excused. But it shouldn't be confused with scum play, which is my point. Pressure him on the fact that he's not doing anything to help the game go along, pressure him on the basis of him being anti town, so that you can get what you can get out of him. Iirc Hando is a man of few words, so I don't know how far you'll get. But I'd STRONGLY suggest (and I do this cuz I think you're town) not prioritizing him over scum reads of yours, which is why making the differentiation is necessary.

Either way I think its kind of a very trivial thing. I get what Gorf is saying. Anti-Town play doesn't equal to a scummy player there are many examples of that being true, but considering the whole point is to hunt scum, I really don't see the point in differentiating a scummy play and an anti-town one. If you see someone doing something that looks anti-town you will want to call him out and read into that, cause its a play that is not being beneficial to town.

So yes, they are technically two different terms, but from my point of view it matters little since you will want to have players elaborate on their anti-townness. I think if someone is wagoned for being anti-town that player has probably reached a point where his play is scummy due to that.

Semantics.

This is exactly where my head is at. Pressure him away to put content out there. Yes, if inherent anti town play continues it could be regarded as scummy, but with two (or three?) days into the game it certainly is not. And that's my point.

@Above Garg post of course there's no certainty, but that's why we read people, and I'm telling you that looking at dumb play vs scum play is NECESSARY when deciding where your vote is going to lie, and where you're looking to lynch. But let's drop the subject, it really is just turning into an argument over semantics and if you want we can discuss the difference between antitown and scummy outside of game.