Not really a free kill. I don't think Donkey Kong grabbing the smashball is going to get him a free kill. Players can easily dodge that, along with Link's, Ike's, Diddy's, Sonic's etc. It's all on the players "skill" you'll have to learn the ins-and-outs with your characters final smash's. If the community does decide to turn them off, it's cool too. I'm just saying that if we do have them on, lets put them on very low so that only one or two spawn per match.
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Final Smashes: Should they be allowed competitively?
- Thread starter Wu Tang Gang
- Start date
Cpatain_Doompants
Smash Rookie
On the subject of Link's Final Smash: I've only seen it work in a video once after seeing about 30 E4-All videos (I must not be looking hard enough) but the sole time I've seen it it failed to kill the Ike that got hit at the edge of the stage. Sadly it didn't seem to be as free killish as the graphic depicted.
On the Subject of Smash Balls: Its not always a free kill, most require timing and position, very specific timing and positioning *coughsamussuperlazercough*. So every final smash as a startup weak point thats abusable and with the new air dodge I'm sure many more inventive ways to dodge Final Smashes, I'm all for them in competitive play.
On the Subject of Smash Balls: Its not always a free kill, most require timing and position, very specific timing and positioning *coughsamussuperlazercough*. So every final smash as a startup weak point thats abusable and with the new air dodge I'm sure many more inventive ways to dodge Final Smashes, I'm all for them in competitive play.
Cless
Smash Champion
They can also be stolen once a character gets them. Don't forget about that.
super-7
Smash Journeyman
dont get me wrong most of them take positioning and timing i agree with u guys there but some
of them are really cheap and take up the entire screen like mario's and lucas's i just cant see it
being aloud in tournament play
of them are really cheap and take up the entire screen like mario's and lucas's i just cant see it
being aloud in tournament play
HugS just didn't want to use them because he doesn't care to play as ZSS. But he's not the only expected Samus main. I intend to main Samus, and I also intend to be able to play ZSS just as well as her armored version. If you don't want to change from Samus to ZSS, then don't get a smash ball. You have the choice not to, you just have to be able to avoid FSes afterwards.
Gomolka
Smash Apprentice
I think they should be allowed in competitive play. Each character has a balanced FS and is pretty much a part of their moveset.
Yeah I know HugS isn't the only Samus main out there, Phanna, I'm just going off what he said. He said that he didn't want them on, I guess that he didn't want them on because of ZSS. That's all, no hard feelings.
Lgndknight
Smash Ace
do we all agree yet? smashball naysayers have nothing going for them. if you don't wanna change to ZSS, but don't want your opponent to get the smash ball, ballhog, or get it and just use smash attacks and/or aerials till it wears off (can it?, the booth babes never allowed it, PRESS ONE to Metaknight players when nobodys in the vincinity)
Lgndknight
Smash Ace
^ agreed
copic tosed
copic tosed
Your Hero
Smash Champion
ermm.. or also have an option to turn it on or off?
I feel that this new and exciting playing style would result in some intense strategy being added to the already pretty intense game.
However, I'd hate to see the day where everyone chose characters based solely on their Final Smash due to this allowance.
Poor Donkey Kong.
However, I'd hate to see the day where everyone chose characters based solely on their Final Smash due to this allowance.
Poor Donkey Kong.
Ophelius
Smash Ace
I seriously doubt people would base their character picks on one move. It seems a bit... ********, doesn't it?
Tony_
Smash Ace
Final Smashes should be allowed. Why? First off, final smashes add strategical depth to the game, not mindless "OMG, THIS IS BROKEN INSTANT KILL ZOMG!!!!1!11!!!11!" like the majority of tourny***s have said. You actually have to set up certain final smashes like Mario's and Link's to even be effective.
That said if they are turned off, every person would be spitting on all the devs who made the game in the rudest fashion.
That said if they are turned off, every person would be spitting on all the devs who made the game in the rudest fashion.
Ophelius
Smash Ace
For some reason, final smashes sound like a GG destroyer move the way you people whine about it lol. It's not a one hit KO!
If there's even an option to turn it off, then they obviously intended for people to play without it sometimes.
Poor Donkey Kong? Those waves from the kongo's get huge, you just have to have some rhythm when you do it. All the final smashes are cool so far, don't say poor Donkey Kong.I feel that this new and exciting playing style would result in some intense strategy being added to the already pretty intense game.
However, I'd hate to see the day where everyone chose characters based solely on their Final Smash due to this allowance.
Poor Donkey Kong.
The Hypnotist
Smash Lord
What about this?
Smash ball is only available as a counter pick. Also if items some how made it into competitive play they should be only counterpickable.
Smash ball is only available as a counter pick. Also if items some how made it into competitive play they should be only counterpickable.
The Hypnotist
Smash Lord
Some final smashes are ZOMG BROKEN! Like Gimpy's.
The Final Smashes are just that. Final. If you use it, it decides the game, especially with FS'es on low (what if only one is used through the fight). Not only that, but they do give a great unbalance, especially considering the randomness of the power.
"It is a part of the moveset". Waveshine, chaingrabs, and peaches Vsmash were parts of the moveset. How many people sighed with relief that they wouldn't have to be fox to win anymore? How many people would sigh in relief if FS's were forced and in the next game, they were an option? FS's are extremely unbalancing and only fubar little noobs would want to ruin the competetive stucture with such overcentralizing overpowered BS. Friendlys ONLY.
"It is a part of the moveset". Waveshine, chaingrabs, and peaches Vsmash were parts of the moveset. How many people sighed with relief that they wouldn't have to be fox to win anymore? How many people would sigh in relief if FS's were forced and in the next game, they were an option? FS's are extremely unbalancing and only fubar little noobs would want to ruin the competetive stucture with such overcentralizing overpowered BS. Friendlys ONLY.
The Hypnotist
Smash Lord
He's right, either off or counterpickable. Actually maybe they could only be on if BOTH players agree.
Cless
Smash Champion
It's really too early to tell. We're going to have to see how the whole getting the ball and stealing aspect work out. Trying to get it in a 1v1 match may very well end in your death.
error_alt_delete
Smash Champion
o rly? and if you miss does that mean you still win? no. we havnt even gotten to try it except for a few of us. I think we should at the very least give FS a try to see if it is as "extremely unbalanced" as you said. FS do require skill to use, especialy ones such as link's, metaknight's, ike's, and pikachu's(his was hard to control). I think they would add depth to the game and make it more enjoyable to play with the skills required.
Timat the Slayer
Smash Journeyman
First, I'm going to say this. I am a tournament player, and competitive player.
I say, Final Smashes should be in, but, on a very low level. Why? Well, yes, They are a single powerful move that can give a huge advantage, or kill people (sometimes instantly, but most likely they could be edge guarded which'll kill them anyway). However, this is assuming they hit.
A final smash, in all honesty is comparable to a lot of techniques in melee. For example, Wavedash. It is helpful, yes, and some characters have better ones than others, such as Bowser's to Marth's. It is not a win all technique as people claim it to be, but it is a situational advantage that can be implemented in different situations to give you just the edge you need.
Also, Mind games anyone? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're playing someone and you get a smash ball, you're going to be on edge, because if they hit you with it, it's gonna hurt (or, they're gonna get healed, in peach's case). It adds another level of mind games, that open up several options when fighting your opponent. This is another huge comparison relative to that of wave dashing.
Yes, I can see someone saying "Well you can't pull Final Smashes out at will like you can Wave dashing." Yeah, you're right. But on the flip side, if you're saying that you can't pull out Final Smashes that much, then what's the problem with having them in the competitive scene? You'll get 0 - 2 final smashes per match, MAYBE. So are you saying you can't dodge ONE? They are all stupid easy to dodge, and hell, some of them could even be shielded for the brute of it. Has anyone taken that into consideration? Yeah, the Zero Laser would hurt and all, but if you shield it from the middle of it you'll get hit for maybe, 10%? That's less than a fully charged neutral B from samus.
All in all, people who can't open up to Final Smashes being just another small part of gameplay, need to stfu and either adapt, or QP. It's a new game, so may god strike us all down for having a new option that all characters have.
This is almost as bad as wave dashing. It's in the game, all characters can do it, so get over it.
I say, Final Smashes should be in, but, on a very low level. Why? Well, yes, They are a single powerful move that can give a huge advantage, or kill people (sometimes instantly, but most likely they could be edge guarded which'll kill them anyway). However, this is assuming they hit.
A final smash, in all honesty is comparable to a lot of techniques in melee. For example, Wavedash. It is helpful, yes, and some characters have better ones than others, such as Bowser's to Marth's. It is not a win all technique as people claim it to be, but it is a situational advantage that can be implemented in different situations to give you just the edge you need.
Also, Mind games anyone? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're playing someone and you get a smash ball, you're going to be on edge, because if they hit you with it, it's gonna hurt (or, they're gonna get healed, in peach's case). It adds another level of mind games, that open up several options when fighting your opponent. This is another huge comparison relative to that of wave dashing.
Yes, I can see someone saying "Well you can't pull Final Smashes out at will like you can Wave dashing." Yeah, you're right. But on the flip side, if you're saying that you can't pull out Final Smashes that much, then what's the problem with having them in the competitive scene? You'll get 0 - 2 final smashes per match, MAYBE. So are you saying you can't dodge ONE? They are all stupid easy to dodge, and hell, some of them could even be shielded for the brute of it. Has anyone taken that into consideration? Yeah, the Zero Laser would hurt and all, but if you shield it from the middle of it you'll get hit for maybe, 10%? That's less than a fully charged neutral B from samus.
All in all, people who can't open up to Final Smashes being just another small part of gameplay, need to stfu and either adapt, or QP. It's a new game, so may god strike us all down for having a new option that all characters have.
This is almost as bad as wave dashing. It's in the game, all characters can do it, so get over it.
Banks
Smash Hero
stop arguing about a game that hasn't been released. part of the reason items were banned was because of exploding capsules and crates. who knows what will happen with this game's competitive ruleset
oh yea and that post about putting smash bballs on solely for the purpose of playing as ZSS and then ignoring all others is the most stupid thing ive heard since I heard a white guy sing soulja boy
oh yea and that post about putting smash bballs on solely for the purpose of playing as ZSS and then ignoring all others is the most stupid thing ive heard since I heard a white guy sing soulja boy
Bo0ndock
Smash Cadet
No they should not be used competively, they look fun and all but tournement smash is skill only
Cless
Smash Champion
Also, did anyone read the post in the other thread where it said that FS's are given to players who are getting whipped as a way to even out the match?
Because when you get a smash ball and use it EVERYONE LOSES ALL THERE LIVES right?
Nosiree
Final Smashes, im many cases are exactly that. Final. They would in some cases (depending on the character and stage) end the span of a life, or an entire match (depending on player lives).
Some of them are an instant win trump card, and no such option or ability should be possible in a tourney. It throws a relatively balanced playing field in a completely different direction.
EDIT: Whoops, i didnt see Sarato's post, ours are similar. >_<
Final Smashes, im many cases are exactly that. Final. They would in some cases (depending on the character and stage) end the span of a life, or an entire match (depending on player lives).
Some of them are an instant win trump card, and no such option or ability should be possible in a tourney. It throws a relatively balanced playing field in a completely different direction.
EDIT: Whoops, i didnt see Sarato's post, ours are similar. >_<
NES n00b
Smash Master
GigaBowser isn't a hard move to dodge? 0_o
Effective ledge stalling is gone and he takes up almost the whole stage so where would you go if Bowser got the smashball. Unless you are Pit, Metaknight, or some other character that can stall in the air (you might not even be safe then, who knows), you will most certainly lose one life. Luckily, he is a little bit on the slow side so he might not get the ball as often. What about something like Pit's where you can attack while all those Centurion things are going on? The execution of these smashballs don't really take much skill and really just take away the finer aspects of combat which removes strategy and depth. They are also horribly balanced between not just the smash balls, but good characters getting get Final Smashes, too. (Metaknight has his and DK has. . . . . .his -_- see my point?) The only saving grace these things have is when they RANDOMLY (emphasized for something later ) spawn and randomly move around, the two players have to focus on the ball and there opponent and make desicions about how to get the ball, etc, which actually does add the three layers necessary for it to be decent in strat. Unfortunately, it is random in where it spawns and where it moves so no matter how strategic you are, there maybe that chance that you failed because the Smash Ball after you were hitting it moved over there. I wouldn't like it personally because it would still take away the finer aspects of one on one combat, but still, this part of the final smash is still pretty good.
I know alot of you casuals, item supporters, and newer smashers don't mind having set probablitity risk where something is outside of their control compelety and if you make tournies with smashballs and/or other items and gain attention from how great the setup is, more power to you. The thing is you want as little luck as possible in competition. So most likely, these things would be removed unless there is a way to make the luck really negligable for a 2/3 set and if there is much more depth in doing so.
Effective ledge stalling is gone and he takes up almost the whole stage so where would you go if Bowser got the smashball. Unless you are Pit, Metaknight, or some other character that can stall in the air (you might not even be safe then, who knows), you will most certainly lose one life. Luckily, he is a little bit on the slow side so he might not get the ball as often. What about something like Pit's where you can attack while all those Centurion things are going on? The execution of these smashballs don't really take much skill and really just take away the finer aspects of combat which removes strategy and depth. They are also horribly balanced between not just the smash balls, but good characters getting get Final Smashes, too. (Metaknight has his and DK has. . . . . .his -_- see my point?) The only saving grace these things have is when they RANDOMLY (emphasized for something later
) spawn and randomly move around, the two players have to focus on the ball and there opponent and make desicions about how to get the ball, etc, which actually does add the three layers necessary for it to be decent in strat. Unfortunately, it is random in where it spawns and where it moves so no matter how strategic you are, there maybe that chance that you failed because the Smash Ball after you were hitting it moved over there. I wouldn't like it personally because it would still take away the finer aspects of one on one combat, but still, this part of the final smash is still pretty good.I know alot of you casuals, item supporters, and newer smashers don't mind having set probablitity risk where something is outside of their control compelety and if you make tournies with smashballs and/or other items and gain attention from how great the setup is, more power to you. The thing is you want as little luck as possible in competition. So most likely, these things would be removed unless there is a way to make the luck really negligable for a 2/3 set and if there is much more depth in doing so.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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IMO as long as you can take out Barrels and Crates, you can have Smash Balls. They will emphasize in a different way on a character's ability to combo. The strategy in them is finding the right opportunity or an effective combo for breaking a ball open, and not letting your opponent break the ball. Smash balls provide more strategy to the scene than luck factor as far as I'm concerned.
Final Smashes are generally somewhat avoidable from what I see anyway, and they aren't necessarily instakill moves. Unless your FS happens to be Giga Bowser. =P
Final Smashes are generally somewhat avoidable from what I see anyway, and they aren't necessarily instakill moves. Unless your FS happens to be Giga Bowser. =P
GhostAnime
Smash Ace
every time a person like you says "tourney***s", you all make yourselves in general look more dumber and dumber.
and anyone who thinks items back then were removed SOLELY because of Craters and Barrels are sadly mistaken.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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But as I was saying, as long as you can have Smash Balls without Crates and Barrels (which explode randomly) I'm fine with them.
Better is a relative term and it just bugs me when people say one SF is better than another. How many people here have actually played brawl enough to deem a move horrible or godly? Each move has their own strengths and weaknesses. I could go on about conventional Pikachu's quick attack is, and how there's no practical way to make it useful other than to recover. But then I'd be wrong because if you have ever seen one of Anther's videos he uses it in ways that no one else does, and makes it seem dare I say it, useful? Hax even? lol.
The point is that you can't simply say there should be no FS's in tournaments based off of the 'balance' of a game that is more than two months away from being released. People will find new and innovative ways to use and avoid FS's, and that is going to be to be the real test of each player's skill. In short, FS's should be allowed in tournaments.
The point is that you can't simply say there should be no FS's in tournaments based off of the 'balance' of a game that is more than two months away from being released. People will find new and innovative ways to use and avoid FS's, and that is going to be to be the real test of each player's skill. In short, FS's should be allowed in tournaments.
GhostAnime
Smash Ace
it's pretty easy to say Kirby's FS is better than say, Mario's. seeing how it's most likely an OHKO and you get food in the process.
deny this is you're just delusional.
I still think they shouldn't be allowed anyhow because they stop any comeback potential we have. I've seen matches where comebacks were made by someone as high as 100% because they combo and "play and dodge" well. it'd be very upsetting to see all that go away just because some guy got the FS item.
and don't even say a person in 100% has a good chance of getting the FS item because one hit would most likely send him at least ready for edge-guarding.
I'm still going to prefer them being gone even if I haven't tested them yet, but I would really prefer them not to be in competitive matches. we'll see.
deny this is you're just delusional.
I still think they shouldn't be allowed anyhow because they stop any comeback potential we have. I've seen matches where comebacks were made by someone as high as 100% because they combo and "play and dodge" well. it'd be very upsetting to see all that go away just because some guy got the FS item.
and don't even say a person in 100% has a good chance of getting the FS item because one hit would most likely send him at least ready for edge-guarding.
I'm still going to prefer them being gone even if I haven't tested them yet, but I would really prefer them not to be in competitive matches. we'll see.
clowsui
Smash Legend
hey guys,
LOOK ONE THREAD BELOW YOU.
Also, USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION.
LOOK ONE THREAD BELOW YOU.
Also, USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION.
bigman40
Smash Master
Why is this thread already made? Brawl hasn't even came out yet and people are deciding if items should be off or on. Wait until like a week or two after brawl is out to choose if items give an unfair advantage over other players.
YoshiBomb
Smash Apprentice
Any real people that play in tournys and play for money will tell you that the randomness of a final smash is something they wouldn't want to deal with SIMPLE AS THAT. With 100$-500$ on the line do you want to lose because of some item
Tony_
Smash Ace
For all we know, Final Smashes can't be turned off and they probably aren't items despite what the Dojo said.