Final Fantasy Tactics Advance Mafia - Game Over!

[Raziek]

EBWOP: Ah, I did forget Cid existed, it has been a while. Thanks for that catch.

 

[Dabuz]

I'm presuming Maximum carnage is a hydra, who is in this hydra?

 

[Jdietz43]

Oh? What parts contributed to your read? Do you think it could be easily faked as scum talking about mechanics? If not, why? If so, what did you gather through that?

Pretty much just this so far.

Gheb wants to push the merits of voteblocking in a voteblock heavy setup. I find that potentially dubious as I find that voteblocking has never been very town and rationalizing it would make life easier for a scumteam to abuse it.

You seemed more than happy to talk about classes that had no relevancy yet which may be trying to deflect attention from you. It's possible you were just curious, but the questions seemed unnecessary. Unsure.

It was never really my intention to try and get reads through mechanics discussion, but when people said it's impossible get reads that way I knew that wasn't true so I said so. They're not that important now, but way down the road I'm betting it will be.

 

[Jdietz43]

I'm presuming Maximum carnage is a hydra, who is in this hydra?

That Dabuz with the hydra awareness

 

[Jdietz43]

(it's OS and Ryker)

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Having the role is technically null, but I'd still argue going for the role is anti-town. When I was going through the list of choices I definitely earmarked a few of them as roles I would see scum being attracted to moreso than town such as Gadgeteer or Archer lvl. 2.

I would definitely argue voteblocking is an anti-town move simply because with the amount of available methods there are to voteblock it is quite possible to force a Day to end in a no lynch and gain a free nightkill. For this reason I almost consider Illusionist pro-town... almost.

You see I was going to be like "damn why's this guy talking about roles n **** out of the blue" but like I guess I can see the confusion in the subject matter (this started off about the whole vote blocking being prohibited thing and wondering if THAT'S anti town or protown) so whatever.

What do you think about Thief's level 2? (Steal heart)

Also, why do you think Archer's level 2 is anti-town?

But then this :thumbsdown:

vote dabuz

**** dabunz

In fact, why did pg 6 up to Sherlock's 231 between Gheb Dietz and dabuz get dragged out like that so much? Gheb < Dietz < Dabuz from that imo but still it's ****in weird.

Also can't believe I am saying this of all people.

****.
Class.
Discussion.

Don't worry about it unless you think it relates to how someone is playing, otherwise look at people right now and less on which role is anti or pro town.

And then Sherlock earns the Post of the Page Award.

 

[Maximum Carnage]

DAY 1 OFFICIALLY STARTS

THE FOLLOWING LAWS ARE IN EFFECT -

THE ACT OF VOTEBLOCKING IS PROHIBITED FOR DAY 1 AND NIGHT 1

AND IS PUNISHABLE BY LAW.

Yeah so this game has laws and a punishment with the law. I dunno if that punishment is "you just can't do it", or a MOD vote (does it go through anyway?), or a modkill but you guys should keep that in mind.

It is assumed that the law will change Day-to-Day. This is good for scum more than town, as town will have trouble claiming and making a crazy plan if a law comes in saying "you can't protect" or "you can't use more than one ability" or "passive abilities are nullified" or crap like that. I'm unfamiliar with the laws from tactics advance but they will likely be in the same vein as the roles in the game.

Things publicly shown roles can do:
Roleblock
Voteblock
Blinding (not receiving results)
Altering NAR order (haste/slow)
Self-abilities (lots of 'em)
Protecting abilities
Reflecting abilities
Lynch-based abilities and restrictions (can't hammer, can't vote last, get ability when on lynch, Archer's concentrate, etc.)
Vote buffs/debuffs (double voter, takes -X to lynch, etc.)
Reactionary abilities (X occurs if they hit you with an ability)
Killing abilities (Assassin Lv. 2, but presumably mafia NKill)
Passive abilities (lots of 'em)
Vote manipulating (Gunner)



With the above list (I probably missed some), there are lots of "laws" that could take place so I cannot forsee us really predicting what they could be. Given the large number of potential protections, passives, and self-abilities I would put those as "most damaging" laws for us though. I'd imagine Gova already has them laid out in advance and that we won't have any laws repeat, but have no evidence for this as of yet. If it's a player doing it, if you choose protection blocking CHOOSE IT FOR N2 AND ONLY FOR N2, but only if you are forced to choose it at some point. If you just have it as an option, never choose it.

Because of these rules I can easily see a town plan be put to shame AND I can see Mafia safe claims stem from these laws. At any point in the future, beware a mafia safe claim that says "I didn't use any ability on N# because of the law set in place"




I don't want to get too deep into restrictions and role fishing, but I will say this:
The sage is a powerful role that can only be used on you if you're on a successful lynch. This means two things.
1) Mafia don't want to be on a successful lynch if they are sending in the NKill because even on D1, with 8 to lynch it means only 6 would send in their NA successfully. Blind chance alone gives a single sage a 20% chance of role blocking scum if there's only one of the eight... With 3/8 and two abilities it's more 1.5/4. Not bad odds. As such, keep in mind the people who deliberately avoid being on a lynch. Punish them.
2) If you have a super good town role that is super necessary to protect us (like Priest or Summoner), try not to be on a lynch and end up getting RBed. I know that goes against my previous saying, but you are all big boys you can figure it out.

The summoner also takes one less to lynch, which means L-2 is L-1 for everyone. Never put anyone at L-1, and anyone doing so will be treated as scum attempting to early hammer. It's possible there could be scum Summoners (Reflect 3 scum members during the Night phase? Holy cow!) but it's more likely that a summoner would be a boon to us than scum. Let people claim at L-2.

Also if you're a templar and you accidentally hammer I'll rip you apart.

It's worth nothing that the previous FFTactics game had only 5 "VTs" that were able to choose two roles. After that there were 3 other town roles, two indies, and 3 mafia. With that setup there were times when scum missed a NKill due to a million dragoons or whatnot, so I'd imagine scum is going to miss at least one NKill this game. Stay vigilant!

Since the other FF Tactics thread is public, I can show what the past roles are:

DAY 1 OFFICIALLY STARTS

THE FOLLOWING LAWS ARE IN EFFECT -

THE ACT OF VOTEBLOCKING IS PROHIBITED FOR DAY 1 AND NIGHT 1

AND IS PUNISHABLE BY LAW.

Yeah so this game has laws and a punishment with the law. I dunno if that punishment is "you just can't do it", or a MOD vote (does it go through anyway?), or a modkill but you guys should keep that in mind.

It is assumed that the law will change Day-to-Day. This is good for scum more than town, as town will have trouble claiming and making a crazy plan if a law comes in saying "you can't protect" or "you can't use more than one ability" or "passive abilities are nullified" or crap like that. I'm unfamiliar with the laws from tactics advance but they will likely be in the same vein as the roles in the game.

Things publicly shown roles can do:
Roleblock
Voteblock
Blinding (not receiving results)
Altering NAR order (haste/slow)
Self-abilities (lots of 'em)
Protecting abilities
Reflecting abilities
Lynch-based abilities and restrictions (can't hammer, can't vote last, get ability when on lynch, Archer's concentrate, etc.)
Vote buffs/debuffs (double voter, takes -X to lynch, etc.)
Reactionary abilities (X occurs if they hit you with an ability)
Killing abilities (Assassin Lv. 2, but presumably mafia NKill)
Passive abilities (lots of 'em)
Vote manipulating (Gunner)



With the above list (I probably missed some), there are lots of "laws" that could take place so I cannot forsee us really predicting what they could be. Given the large number of potential protections, passives, and self-abilities I would put those as "most damaging" laws for us though. I'd imagine Gova already has them laid out in advance and that we won't have any laws repeat, but have no evidence for this as of yet. If it's a player doing it, if you choose protection blocking CHOOSE IT FOR N2 AND ONLY FOR N2, but only if you are forced to choose it at some point. If you just have it as an option, never choose it.

Because of these rules I can easily see a town plan be put to shame AND I can see Mafia safe claims stem from these laws. At any point in the future, beware a mafia safe claim that says "I didn't use any ability on N# because of the law set in place"




I don't want to get too deep into restrictions and role fishing, but I will say this:
The sage is a powerful role that can only be used on you if you're on a successful lynch. This means two things.
1) Mafia don't want to be on a successful lynch if they are sending in the NKill because even on D1, with 8 to lynch it means only 6 would send in their NA successfully. Blind chance alone gives a single sage a 20% chance of role blocking scum if there's only one of the eight... With 3/8 and two abilities it's more 1.5/4. Not bad odds. As such, keep in mind the people who deliberately avoid being on a lynch. Punish them.
2) If you have a super good town role that is super necessary to protect us (like Priest or Summoner), try not to be on a lynch and end up getting RBed. I know that goes against my previous saying, but you are all big boys you can figure it out.

The summoner also takes one less to lynch, which means L-2 is L-1 for everyone. Never put anyone at L-1, and anyone doing so will be treated as scum attempting to early hammer. It's possible there could be scum Summoners (Reflect 3 scum members during the Night phase? Holy cow!) but it's more likely that a summoner would be a boon to us than scum. Let people claim at L-2.

Also if you're a templar and you accidentally hammer I'll rip you apart.

It's worth nothing that the previous FFTactics game had only 5 "VTs" that were able to choose two roles. After that there were 3 other town roles, two indies, and 3 mafia. With that setup there were times when scum missed a NKill due to a million dragoons or whatnot, so I'd imagine scum is going to miss at least one NKill this game. Stay vigilant!

Since the other FF Tactics thread is public, I can show what the past roles are. I'll do that in another post, I think this'll be a long one. Or you can just go visit the thread.




It is incredibly unlikely that those same roles exist in this game, most especially because he's basing this off of a different FF Tactics. That said, he may be using some of the abilities.

Wanna clear yourself as town too? Then read your town role PM carefully and tell us where the difference is. Don't forget that you cannot directly quote your role PM and need to paraphrase. I'd like @Overswarm or @Ryker to clear themselves that way.

rolleyes.jpg

Wat you scurred m8?

This was a dumb attempt at clearing yourself Gheb, anyone who read the role PM or had played FF Tactics would know that was a fake role PM. Like, say Gheb (Hashmalum, mafia Lucavi Demon Summoner / Lancer, SAGGITARUIUS). It wasn't the role PM even in THAT game, and this was obviously copy/pastad.



FOS: Gheb

Yeah; that ain't gonna fly.

All players are aware of the same town win condition.

Specially since Gova's all like "HEY YO, MAFIA KNOWS THE WIN CON OF TOWN". He might not have meant to, but this heavily implies that if you are scum you knew what Town's was regardless... so, hey you look scummy. GJ.

Obviously this is something new as compared to OS's old set-up, and given that I don't think any of the default roles/classes had anything to do with them, it's probably a fairly safe bet that these are either related to newly created specific roles (likely of both factions) or ambient game mechanics. If Gova's drawing directly from flavor, we can probably expect these to change every day (as the wording seems to imply).

No voteblocking is cool though, that's deffo pro-Town.

I realize this is kind of an empty discussion point as we can't say much beyond speculation, but I wanted to at least bring it up so I get interested in this game more quickly.

<3

Always liked you Raz. Don't lurk, be a buddy.

4) Why was it just limited to the Ryker/OS hydra? You have a game with Vult Redux (who is much better than people realize), Nabe, myself, Marshy/Swords, and J and you just single out Ryker/OS?

He's obviously scurred of us.

Too easy to be wrong. Too risky to use late in the game unless a scum is near-confirmed.

Early game it caaaan be useful to block a scumread from voting when it doesn't have as much impact, but from a sheer numbers PoV unless you have godlike reads, vote-blocking is far more likely to hurt Town than help it. Even if you DO block scum it gives them an excuse to not have a voting trail.

Disagree. Vote blocking people that lead town is a surefire way to make sure other people have to do shiz and a way to force mafia's hand. You either voteblock mafia, meaning they don't get to participate with a vote and have less say, or voteblock town and make mafia step up if they want to mislynch. It has obvious downsides (if it takes 8 to lynch and there's only 10 townies, two voteblocked townies means every non-mafia is required to lynch mafia), but it also means that mafia has to be that much more obvious.

That said, I doubt anyone picked a voteblocking ability deliberately. I wouldn't call 'em scum right out the gate if they had one though. Gova could easily have been like "You are lv. 1 alchemist. Choose your level 2" to certain roles. I did with some of mine.

Could I ask though, going off of Washed is saying, why are you so afraid of OS/Ryker?

OS and Ryker are a scary combination. Thread control? Check. Smart Night actions? Check. Guy who BODIED Gheb last time this game was run? Check. Guy who CREATED the setup this was based on? Check. Kickass hydra name? Check.


Sage should RB Gheb imo. Easy peazy.

Gheb, get on a lynch. MAYBE EVEN YOUR OWN AGAIN ahahahahahahahahhhahahaha

I wouldn't be surprised to see a PR who comes up with laws on each Day phase that players have to abide to. If that actually happens to be the case would you still argue that his choice to disable voteblocking is a pro-town move? I know we're arguing over a hypothetical scenario here but I'd hate to see people giving somebody pro-town credit later in the game for something that's not actually pro-town but null. It'd be a grave mistake if people were to let that kind of action slide - the fact that you seem to think of voteblocking as an anti-town move makes me thing that you'd fall for it.

Good thinkin', agree agree. We don't know the intention of this player or how the ability would work but we CAN direct him in some facet I'd imagine. Like "if town, do X". If he goes against the direction, we lynch him when he claims he was doing it "for town's benefit" cuz eff that stuff.

Plus, this is the only interesting thing to have happened in this game so far. There is pretty much no content besides this. So tell me, what's another interesting thing to comment on in this game so far besides your need to FUD Ryker/OS and need a clear right here, right now on a slot that has 0 content posts atm.

I like this line of thought though. Gheb you say that prohibiting vote blocking is absolutely null right? What does that say about a player who can enact this law at all, or is it too early to tell?

It says he's independently aligned unless we can safely direct the abilities at all times, and if it doesn't block killing actions as one of the laws then we have no use until we get further information.

I'm not "afraid" of them.

Where did I say that I find you two "just as hard to read" as them?

uh...

Washed WTF

Why was it just limited to the Ryker/OS hydra? You have a game with Vult Redux (who is much better than people realize), Nabe, myself, Marshy/Swords, and J and you just single out Ryker/OS?

You're putting players up on a pedestal for Gheb and then complaining that he didn't put them on a pedestal. Seriously, for realz check this out:

A lot of people will probably misread the slot. I'm also a bit afraid that there aren't enough players I can trust to lynch them in case I consider it necessary.

This was BEFORE you asked that question. He had already answered.

His response after:

I know Vult is smart as I've played a number of games with him and I'm not the kind of player who takes others lightly just because of their reputation [or the lack thereof]. I'm not a tool. But I'm confident I can read Vult and will not let him slip under the radar. I've read him correctly in the games I've played with him and I've always made efforts to include him in the game as much as possible. Marshy / Sword are super transparent as town and J is my pupil. Nabe and you are the only ones in that list that worry me to some extent. I've found Raz passivity harder to interpret than any of the players you mentioned and would've tried to clear him before them. That's my personal preference and I see nothing wrong with it. From my point of view, clearing a hydra consisting of Ryker and OS is the right course of action. I admit though that I am ignorant towards your in-game "relationship" with Ryker.

Another quote relevant after:

Nabe and you are the only ones in that list that worry me to some extent.

Which leads us to...

I mean, you did say we worried you to an extent. When you vaguely say things like that, you are left open to interpretation. Even if we don't worry you as much as Ryker/OS, that still doesn't change the fact that reading us causes you concern and yet you're adamant that it has to be Ryker/OS, only Ryker/OS, and no one else despite the fact that you named three other slots that you struggle at reading as well.

Hello? Falling back on your wording doesn't change the point of the question.

WTF

Look at the order of operations here:

1. Gheb singles out MAXIMUM CARNAGE, OS/Ryker, as "hey be cleared town gais"
2. Nameless says "why those two specifically?"
3. Nabe ignores
4. Gheb responds to Nameless with

A lot of people will probably misread the slot. I'm also a bit afraid that there aren't enough players I can trust to lynch them in case I consider it necessary.

5. You respond with

wot

did you forget who i am or how hard i bodied him in os all-stars

6. He responds with

2.) Ryker + OS =/= Ryker
3.) You =/= the voting majority
4.) Do you think that trying to get that slot cleared is not a good idea? Who would you have gone for had you had the option?

7. You respond with

1) Okay
2) What a bad equation! You forgot a variable. It should read Ryker+OS=/=Ryker+Stew but there is a common denominator there
3) Sure but that doesn't stop me from convincing people
4) Why was it just limited to the Ryker/OS hydra? You have a game with Vult Redux (who is much better than people realize), Nabe, myself, Marshy/Swords, and J and you just single out Ryker/OS?

So your big beef with him right now is that you can somehow body a Ryker/OS hydra (good ****ing luck nubcakes, I'd trick you into modkilling yourself before you could even try hardbodying me)
and that even though you can't do it yourself you can convince other people (good luck again)

Which means you expected Gheb to NOT specifically choose Ryker/OS hydra because... you are in the game?

Then you dodge his freaking question and just list a bunch of players and toss it back at him. WTF, he already answered the question. "I think people will misread this slot". This fits both with the history of Over "always scum even when town" Swarm and Ry "the lightning rod" Ker mentality that Gheb has even in the social thread...

but even if you didn't know that you still dodged his question.

Do you think that trying to get that slot cleared is not a good idea? Who would you have gone for had you had the option?

I wanna know your response to that.

So right now you've got your panties in a bunch for no raisins because, from what I can understand, Gheb doesn't prioritize the same way as you do. You also seem to be under the impression that Gheb thinks Ryker/OS hydra is the best playing slot in the game and that he should think one of your list is higher up (and thus should have been his choice).

8. Gheb, I don't know why, assumes your list actually means something and responds with

I know Vult is smart as I've played a number of games with him and I'm not the kind of player who takes others lightly just because of their reputation [or the lack thereof]. I'm not a tool. But I'm confident I can read Vult and will not let him slip under the radar. I've read him correctly in the games I've played with him and I've always made efforts to include him in the game as much as possible. Marshy / Sword are super transparent as town and J is my pupil. Nabe and you are the only ones in that list that worry me to some extent. I've found Raz passivity harder to interpret than any of the players you mentioned and would've tried to clear him before them. That's my personal preference and I see nothing wrong with it. From my point of view, clearing a hydra consisting of Ryker and OS is the right course of action. I admit though that I am ignorant towards your in-game "relationship" with Ryker.

This response is dumb but it's Gheb so I'll let him have it. It's not wrong, just pointless. Gheb's prior reasoning ("They might not understand the slot, it could be misread") is totally separate from your proposed reasoning ("You think they're good, huh?! I'll body 'em why didn't ya think of that huh?! What about all these other good players I couldn't body, huh?!"), but now he responds as if your reasoning is the same and your line of questioning isn't inane.

9. Your response is just quoting his "you aren't the voting majority" despite the fact you already responded to that with "I could convince others" which I assume would be a response you'd be okay with? WTF was this post about. Completely worthless, -10 points to laundry.

10. J asks why Gheb's afraid and Gheb says

I'm not "afraid" of them.

11. You say...

You clearly prioritized them over Nabe and I despite finding us just as hard to read as them while being almost as hard to lynch.

12. Gheb's confused, as he should be.

Where did I say that I find you two "just as hard to read" as them?

13. You respond

I mean, you did say we worried you to an extent. When you vaguely say things like that, you are left open to interpretation. Even if we don't worry you as much as Ryker/OS, that still doesn't change the fact that reading us causes you concern and yet you're adamant that it has to be Ryker/OS, only Ryker/OS, and no one else despite the fact that you named three other slots that you struggle at reading as well.

Now here's the kicker.


Post #187 where you say "you clearly prioritized them over me / Nabe!"
Post #181 where Gheb says "Nabe and you are the only ones in that list that worry me to some extent. " FOR THE FIRST TIME
Post #173 and #179 where you start questioning him about his choice of Ryker/OS

You questioned him before you even knew that You (washed) and Nabe worried him at all.

Washed, why did you assume that Gheb should pay special attention to multiple slots rather than picking one (even arbitrarily)?
Why did you assume that Gheb's action implied he WASN'T afraid of those slots? It was literally the start of the game and he had ALREADY ANSWERED THE QUESTION.
Why didn't you answer his question to you? Surely any sort of self-reflection would make your stance here more clear.

What is your goal here, Washed? It sure looks to me like you're wasting time and moving the goalposts around as he posts. What will it take for you to be satisfied, for him to say "Oops, made a mistake, you and Nabe are way too good I should have included you".

I mean WTF, if Gheb posts a way to potentially clear A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL (because if we had responded and cleared ourselves in that manner no one else could have), what kind of mentally deficient troglodyte waltzes in and asks "WHY DIDN'T YOU ALSO EXTEND THAT TO ALL THESE OTHER PLAYERS" and gets pissy AFTER Gheb already responded with "I think this is a slot that will be misread"?

Dunce Cap on Washed Laundry

(this isn't an ability but it should be)

Washed, you either didn't realize that Gheb's plan to break the game would only clear one person and didn't suggest that it be extended to the entire game, but rather a small selection of individuals, or you did and are just salty that he chose us over other people.

So washed, answer the questions I listed.

What were you hoping to gain? What information would you possibly glean from this other than Gheb's personal prattle on how he "rates other players"? Guy took start rating systems seriously, he could quote his posts from Social Games and you'd never get any unique answers in that vein.

I mean come on.

I feel like I'm taking CRAZY PILLS

Besides, Gheb's against Overswarm's alignment even when they're on the same faction. Did you read Liar Game?

By that logic, do you think any abilities under the choosable class abilities are null due to both alignments having access to them?

How you know that both alignments have access or that there are only "two", implied by both?

If I was to string together a flavor-based set-up, the mafia probably has Mewt in it, who (in the game), directly abuses his power as the Prince to control the judges, who set the laws. It's a major plot point in the game.

Can you give some sort of flavor breakdown for us?

He's real bad at checking names or something. Dabunz pls look leftward more often. There's no real tell behind it to me, just naive stupidity.

OH SHI PROTECTION

The triangle beings

Washed - Red - DAbuz

plus marshy hydra I guess

square beings

While we're at it, vote-blocking is inherently anti-town in nature because it will block town's vote more often than not and infringe upon the natural majority that town needs to win the game. It's not a role I'd hand town.

That said, in a game where players can willingly select voteblocking powers via the basic roles, it is null like Gheb admits. Not because of the role itself but simply due to the availability of it.

Way to make sweeping generalizations, Gheb.


Roleblocking roles
Gadgeteer
Time Mage Lv1
Sage Lv1 (only people on a successful lynch)
White Monk Lv1 (roleblocks whoever targeted them that night)


Voteblocking roles
Time Mage Lv1 (one shot)
Alchemist Lv1 (only on people that successfully used an active ability that Night, notes they are poisoned and thus used an ability)
Alchemist Lv2 (in case someone uses vote block ability on them)
Templar (voteblocks self if vote on townie lynch)
Assassin (voteblocks self if uses an assassin ability)
Soldier Lv2 (if NKilled successfully on N1 or N2, overrules its Lv1)

Grand total of 5 voteblocking roles, 3 of which are SELF voteblocking as a result, one ability only if VB is used on them, one is a ONE shot, and the only remaining one is only "if they successfully used an active ability.

You think voteblocking in this game is anti-town? Read the role list mang. The majority of the time voteblocking can be easily explained and if a mafia claimed to VB someone they could EASILY be confirmed scum if they goof up.

"Der, I voteblocked you"
"I used no active abilities, how is that possible?"
"Oh no you caught me D:" or "Uh... one soht Time mage usez on u. Guess I cannae do that anymere"

Been working on figuring out intent and generally asking more questions when I can. I think it helps me. Otherwise, just have fun lol.

What do you think Washed's Intent in questioning Gheb was?

Also what do you think my intent is with this post? Please cite sources in MLA format.

How is vote-blocking pro-Town?

Look at the roles that can do it. There's one one-shot voteblock, and one "only if they use an active ability". The 2nd one is publicly noted with "poison", meaning that guy can't claim Time Mage for no reason.

It's super, super easy to create pro-town situations with that.

Also as a note, I'd just like to comment I could totally see a scum team with a double voter that they vote block every other day to make him seem like a templar when he's really not and then BAM secret alpha

So watch out for that and all

there's also the fact that losing a vote makes a player more likely to flake as their opinions are less likely to make a difference.

Ya, so mess 'em up if they try to do that. Everyone should have a trail if they vote or not o_o



if there is an alchemist with a vote blocking ability then they should only really be using that ability on non-Templars when a townie is lynched (since templar already VBed), so it gives scum incentive not to be on a lynch (so they cannae be voteblocked).

We should prolly figure out how to move when VBs occur in the future. The "law" applied implies there is voteblocking in the game. Could be arbitrary and there be no VBing choices but if I recalls Time Mage was popular and mafia had a VB role that hid as an alchemist. Lynch All Alchemists?

Time Mage voteblock is totally cool since its also a RB, but they better have a damn good reason.

I'm just going to have to assume it's as stated and he changed it entirely arbitrarily to the reverse of OS's role intent, but I swear if someone dies from it I will blacklist Gova 5ever. Not even joking.

Maybe ninja's gotta hide in plain sight

that's how you know they're ninjas, they don't even need to hide in the shadows

I wanted to talk to Ruy about it first before I moved it. I saw it as town because of the fact that if he's scum, he'd be talking to other players and they would point out marshy's in the game as a hydra, would they not? You're right that it's probably null, but that was my thought process.

vote: Gheb

original wagon do not derail

OH ****

Vote: Gheb

I'll follow that trail.

Jdietz asking a lot of questions about roles and ability interactions was cool and good to pay attention to. Claim discussion was nice because it led to a sensible conclusion that claims aren't going to be worth much. That's pretty much what I got from pre-game. Derped on not noticing the whole nameless is a hydra with Marshy thing, but w/e.

Yo, what do you mean by "good to pay attention to"? Knowing you read is awesome and all, but I'd like to know why that's good. What does it say about JDietz to you? What about it could be scummy in the future, if anything?

Do you think that Gheb would be bold enough to attempt to clear himself off wording shenanigans as scum?

I would.

Gheb wants to push the merits of voteblocking in a voteblock heavy setup. I find that potentially dubious as I find that voteblocking has never been very town and rationalizing it would make life easier for a scumteam to abuse it.

You seemed more than happy to talk about classes that had no relevancy yet which may be trying to deflect attention from you. It's possible you were just curious, but the questions seemed unnecessary. Unsure.

Look JDietz, I get a good vibe from you. I really do. I want to be your friend.

But let's put a few things in perspective here, shall we?

This isn't a "voteblock heavy setup". There aren't that many that can voteblock at all. One is a oneshot, one is only if they use an active ability and says they are "poisoned". This is hardly overwhelming. There are more protective abilities than vote blocking abilities.

But for a moment, let's imagine that voteblocking IS prominent in this game and you noticed Gheb going out of his way to support it early game. Is this null, scummy, or towny?

You don't know because you sprung the trap too early. You don't know if Gheb is doing this out of self interest, scum interest, or if he honestly believes it. You can't assume people are rational, only that conscious intent can be predictable and read both forwards and backwards.

By calling Gheb out on it now, there's absolutely no way to peg him on it later. What is Gheb going to do if he picked out Alchemist or Time Mage and he's town? What are OTHER town going to do?


....What will scum do?

Here's what I'd do as a scum team with a voteblocker (listed or no):
I'd not say a word about it. Not one bit. Then when the first voteblock hit I'd list allllll the ways people could be voteblocked and make people chase two dozen strands at once. I wouldn't suggest a solution, I'd let them find their own knowing it couldn't be correct without more information.
If someone else said anything about it, I'd say nothing at all. You know why? Because if voteblocking came into play now, in this game, our game, you know who would be the only targets? You and Gheb. You for the "he's doing the opposite so we don't expect" and Gheb for the "He thought he was subtle but he was really direct", but neither would be right.

More importantly, voteblocking was already removed for D1/N1 by the mod or some special role.

But let's assume that scum COULD choose roles. Why would they choose a voteblocker? You honestly think they'd choose the Alchemist or Time Mage, of all things?

If this game isn't over on D2, then there are either special roles involved for Mafia (meaning they can't pick all the roles they want), special rules for mafia (you can only pick certain combos / can't duplicate), or they're dumb.
A 3 man scum team could have 6 votes alone as a lv. 2 templar. With two lv. 1 Illusionists they could make everyone -2. That would allow them to alpha on D1 if they could use NAs.
There are tons of other combinations you could put together that would just be overwhelmingly broken for scum and voteblocking is one of the smaller ones, most especially because it can't be stopped by any predictable means.

So you know what I think? I think Gheb was being Gheb because I don't have any more information. In the future if you get a nugget like this and you can make a testable hypothesis, wait and test it before letting the cat out of the bag.

Hypothesis: Gheb is pro-vote blocking
Evidence: On D1 & D2, Gheb called for a specific vote block and it occured for D2 & D3.
Conclusion: Rational response

Is way better than:
Hypothesis: Gheb is pro-vote blocking
Conclusion: That is dumb

I get unbiased opinions from lurking slots who have the gall to imply they have opinions and not reciprocate after my generosity.

You aren't me, post your reasoning. The only people who want their reasoning open to interpretation is scum and Overswarm, and you don't want to be seen as either.

I'll bet Gheb was REALLY scared of that pressure vote with no reasoning behind it, damn I wish I hadn't ruined your plan man

Honestly he actually might have been. Gheb gets salty real fast. OS voted for him once and he killed himself in a game that they already knew could only have one mislynch for town total, and that mislynch had already occurred.

Here let me lay it out:

I have a gut read on Gheb to distrust him this game. The reasonings are out there weak as they are, the disagreement with me, the deflecting of J and Washed. Enough that of the few people active so far I wanted him to talk some more. Washed puts down a vote, so maybe he has something. Maybe if he has something good and I help him with vote pressure it will lead somewhere good for reads, Gheb scum or no. So I did. Sherlock and many others have Dabuz, so we can get Gheb.

Then you come in and ask me if I'm sure Gheb is scum. Well the answer at this stage of the game is of course "I don't really know", but I can't just say that and have Gheb still talk to me and Washed, that'd ruin any iota of pressure. Then you asked me an unknowable question about Washed's motives that I don't understand why it matters: he wants reads on Gheb that's good enough for me.

But you haven't said anything. That's not okay, because it means you can just mirror whatever arguments other people come up with if you're scum: and if they're weak and wrong, they take the fall. And if they aren't, you weren't the one condeming a scum-mate. I'd much rather that you discussed what you felt like at least a little bit, and it's not like my crumbs of suspicion were about to change whatever you had in mind, so I asked you, probably for the same reason you were asking me: letting people to things without explaining means they can do whatever they want. You literally had all the opinions I had given already to work with and they were all out in thread in the half-baked form they existed in, so there was no reason to go on until Gheb came back unless you had something significant to add. So I didn't and hoped you would elaborate first.

I didn't want you hiding, because it's something I feel I could've done in a game if I was scum to get through the day for free.

Now please at least discuss what you see or don't see in Gheb. You dragged everything out of me and still haven't said a word to your own opinions. (and if your talking points are mine I'll probably just ragequit the game)

MEAT.
My issues with this are:
1. He didn't deflect Washed. I already went over that (you read my post, right?)
2. You think Washed has something. He doesn't. You didn't even look for reasoning but questioned others.
3. "I don't really know" is a given. No one is going to garrote you for changing your read unless you are slimy about it. If you say "Gheb is scum" on D1 before all players have even posted you're either lying, stupid, or just promoting that you are leaning on that idea.
4. You showed your hand again. Sheesh, learn to be a spider.
You're worried that Town PR will mimic you word for word, so you DON'T EXPLAIN YOUR REASONING?

Why?

What GOOD does that do?

Seriously, what good?

I'm going to give you two options, and you tell me which you pick:
A) You post your reasoning and wait to see if Town PR mimics you exactly. You posted your reasoning specifically enough to where any exact duplicate will be obvious and any extra additions shallow. It will be obvious that he is just mimicking your song, and you can continue to lead him down different paths and see if he has his own backbone or if he's trying to play you.
B) You say "no, I want your reads first" and get a guy's opinion on one microcosm of one player on the opening Day of the game

Oh, wait, you already picked B.

Step it up JDietz, this be big leagues.
Town PR doesn't even necessarily have an opinion on Gheb, nor does he have to. Why should he? You didn't when you started voting. You just said "let's see how it goes" and now you're wondering if he'll copy you?

Somehow I sincerely doubt it.

@ Maximum Carnage

What will the gist be of WashedLaundry's first post to you upon your entrance into the game?

"@mod request replacement", probably. If not that then "Holy ****ing wall of ****, GEEZE"

You're being timid Nabe, whatsupwithdat. Where's your neck at.


@MOD REQUEST VOTECOUNT

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED

@MOD REQUEST VOTECOUNT

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Dabooze forgetting Nameless was Marshy is null to me because I see no scum intention forgetting, or town. I think his reaction to Ryu's grilling is bad play, not scum revealing himself. Him saying "I guess I didn't read it as I thought" is more honest then trying to claim the truth through lies. (Meaning, it would be more damning if he held his ground when in fact it would have damned him) Again, I find it null. Ryu saying him lying to fake some questions is a valid possibility, but don't know if that's true.

@Gheb_01
Did you forget that some mods give scum the town wincon when a player attempts to clear another in public?

@ Raziek @ #HBC | Gorf
Thoughts on the Dabuz Wagon? Any thoughts/suspicions?

I think Ruy's on it for a reachy reason if he's gonna ride the dabuz not remembering marshy thing but I aside from that, yes, I'm campaigning for his wagon to pull through in this election.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

And then epic OS post that nobody is going to read.

 

[Maximum Carnage]

It appears I was ninja'd a few times. To be expected, I think.

 

[Jdietz43]

Holy **** that wall... uhm, reading

 

[Dabuz]

I'll get to reading that wall...and most of last page eventually...

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Woah.......

Must try comprehend wall. Body was not ready lol.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I'll be honest @ the top of pg 8, I'm not seeing the Gheb hate. Well, I mean like any more than how we should hate Gheb. His ignoring J thing seemed more ego driven than scum motivated, his approach to talking about the roles didn't really read as scummy to me (at least not compared to the other two), and his mindset seemed solid as far as try'na talk to Raz about the blocking vote block thing.

this is legitimately one of the ****tiest d1s ive had the misfortune of being forced to partake. why the **** are *****s talking about claims and classes and centralizing discussion around that?

in other news jdietz continues to scum it up in every game we play together

fos jdietz

Actual Dabuz read if it's anything past **** dabuz?

Dietz' 315 where he explains himself seems reachy as all hell not only when he's explaining his dislike for Gheb but then he turns it around on town PR! :thumbsdown:

Geez the armchair is boring I wanna be caught up why do you guys do this to me

 

[Gova]

1. Nameless ()
2. Raziek ()
3. Maximum Carnage ()
4. WashedLaundry ()
5. Detective Sherlock Hound ()
6. J ()
7. Gorf (1) MOD
8. Dabunz (3) Nameless, Nameless DSH,
9. LBScary59 ()
10. Town PR ()
11. Jdietz43 (2) Scary, TPR
12. Gheb_01 (3) WL, Jdietz, MC
13. Nabe (1) J
14. Vult Redux (2) Dabuz, Dabuz

Not voting - Raziek, Gheb, Nabe, Vult, Gorf

With 14 playing it takes 8 to lynch!

Deadline is February 17th at 11:59 PM CST (GMT-6)

 

[Town PR]

I'm waiting on an answer from Gheb on my last question before I put a read out on that.

Also Raz that was posted without my permission and I do not condone that question.

 

[Maximum Carnage]

1. Nameless ()
2. Raziek ()
3. Ryker ()
4. WashedLaundry ()
5. Detective Sherlock Hound ()
6. J ()
7. Gorf ()
8. Dabunz (6) Gorf, Nameless, DSH, MC
9. LBScary59 ()
10. Town PR ()
11. Jdietz43 (2) Scary, TPR
12. Gheb_01 (2) WL, Jdietz
13. Nabe () J
14. Vult Redux (1) Dabuz

Not voting - Raziek, Gheb, Nabe, Vult

With 14 playing it takes 8 to lynch!

Deadline is February 17th at 11:59 PM CST (GMT-6)

Few issues with votecount

You have "ryker" instead of "maximum carnage"
You missed our vote
You have (6) for Dabunz with only 4 names (if one is a double voter they'd be there twice, amirite mod?)
You have Nabe() with J voting for Nabe

pro-tip:

CTRL+F "vote", scroll down page look for highlighted sections or just hit enter to teleport between 'em

so you miss no votes

Also another pro-tip:

highlight name in "not voting", ctrl+x, ctrl+v in right place. Change numbers each time through. Only list people currently being voted for ,good for players and less upkeep on your part

 

[Maximum Carnage]

Food for thought, if Dabuz's number of votes is accurate, when Washed moved off, Dabuz was at L-1 without anyone throwing out any sort of warning and with only 5 voters on him.

 

[Dabuz]

Food for thought, if Dabuz's number of votes is accurate, when Washed moved off, Dabuz was at L-1 without anyone throwing out any sort of warning and with only 5 voters on him.

It's funny, I was gonna say as a joke when I had 4 people voting me that if 4 of them are Templars, i'm dead...didn't think it'd be so close to true.

 

[Jdietz43]

Way to make sweeping generalizations, Gheb.


Roleblocking roles
Gadgeteer
Time Mage Lv1
Sage Lv1 (only people on a successful lynch)
White Monk Lv1 (roleblocks whoever targeted them that night)


Voteblocking roles
Time Mage Lv1 (one shot)
Alchemist Lv1 (only on people that successfully used an active ability that Night, notes they are poisoned and thus used an ability)
Alchemist Lv2 (in case someone uses vote block ability on them)
Templar (voteblocks self if vote on townie lynch)
Assassin (voteblocks self if uses an assassin ability)
Soldier Lv2 (if NKilled successfully on N1 or N2, overrules its Lv1)

Grand total of 5 voteblocking roles, 3 of which are SELF voteblocking as a result, one ability only if VB is used on them, one is a ONE shot, and the only remaining one is only "if they successfully used an active ability.

You think voteblocking in this game is anti-town? Read the role list mang. The majority of the time voteblocking can be easily explained and if a mafia claimed to VB someone they could EASILY be confirmed scum if they goof up.

"Der, I voteblocked you"
"I used no active abilities, how is that possible?"
"Oh no you caught me D:" or "Uh... one soht Time mage usez on u. Guess I cannae do that anymere"

Incorrect.

Gadgeteer has a multi-target voteblock identical in function to Alchemist's, and lvl 2 Thief is better than a voteblock as they can only target who you say or no one at all.

These combined with passive restrictions make voteblocking a major threat. Remember that town is as likely to pick the self voteblocking roles as scum if not more likely in some cases.

 

[Dabuz]

@Mod: Can you confirm when the vote count is 100% corrected?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Go to see a movie. Come back and I see likes and that Ryker has finally joined the game.

It begins.

 

[Dabuz]

1. Nameless ()
2. Raziek ()
3. Maximum Carnage ()
4. WashedLaundry ()
5. Detective Sherlock Hound ()
6. J ()
7. Gorf (1) MOD
8. Dabunz (4) Nameless, Nameless DSH, MC
9. LBScary59 ()
10. Town PR ()
11. Jdietz43 (2) Scary, TPR
12. Gheb_01 (2) WL, Jdietz
13. Nabe () J
14. Vult Redux (2) Dabuz, Dabuz

Not voting - Raziek, Gheb, Nabe, Vult, Gorf

With 14 playing it takes 8 to lynch!

Deadline is February 17th at 11:59 PM CST (GMT-6)

Presumably this is all correct now.

Few interesting things:

Gorf has a mod vote but looking at his posts in the thread and the roles, don't know why.

Nameless has a double vote.

I have a double vote :3

Based on the previous vote count error that maximum carnage has quoted, when Gorf was on me that was 6 votes, meaning Gorf also has double vote?

 

[Gova]

@Mod: Can you confirm when the vote count is 100% corrected?

I'm pretty sure the vote count is accurate as of now; please let me know if there are any errors.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

The murderer in this picture is a fox, Sherlock's avatar is a fox (or something similar)...scumslip!

Do you have any last words Mr. Fox?

Scumpartners indeed.

#ez

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

This whole interaction is hard because I want to vote Gheb on gut for his voteblocking advocacy, but I'm the one who accidentally started the mechanics talk he went along with that made Washed vote him...

oh well

Vote: Gheb

#hypocrite city

Ain't even the mechanic talks on a whole (though I don't like how he went "let's not talk about this" and then started talking about it). It's his odd choice in clear, his defensive nature in that, and then his random jump to mechanics discussion as if none of those posts happened. His play on a whole has not been very good to me.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I liked what you said about Gheb pushing the merits of voteblocking in this game, finding it pretty thoughtful from your end and agreeable that it's not pro-town. However there's not enough from that slot to have an opinion otherwise.

e_e

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

vote: Jdietz

Game's been running for less than 24 hours. Commit to reasoning please. Or explain how town benefits from you not doing so.

what

what

christ i don't even wanna touch this

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Again, this game is less than 24 hours in. I've been at work since about an hour ago.

I'm asking these questions because your motives and assertions don't make sense to me. You claim Laundry is voting based off your pressure, but I see no evidence that he's basing ANYTHING off of that. In fact his post leads me to believe he's pushing off of something else entirely. But you didn't even consider that, you just tack him onto your ideas and roll with it.

Answer my questions, you've very clearly demonstrated you CAN'T justify not answering them from a town mentality as you've conveniently not noticed it the two times I've asked now. I will be happy to weigh in (and spoiler, maybe even justify my reads!) after you decide to play the game here.

never mind my previous post, this is better

 

[Jdietz43]

@ Maximum Carnage : As for the rest of your comments on my play beyond under-rating the number of potential voteblocks...

Well... You make really good points and frankly all I can say is I flubbed it, I'm not a good spider yet. I just saw shades of something I'd do as scum in Town PR and it set off all my flags.

That said. Still waiting.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I don't know how many times I was supposed to say "gutread" and "would ruin pressure" in my posts before you got the hint that what I already said was all that I had to work with and I've been waiting for more.

Lemme guess.

REACTIONS!

i hate this game sometimes

 

[Jdietz43]

That gorf post will never stop being relevant

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

What's the comparison here?

massive amounts of mechanics discussions due to various reasons based on the set-up. there, it was due to it not being a mafia game. here, it's due to the sheer complexity based on role interaction and selection. it's dulled my hatred for the obvious scum magnet because town does need to discuss such things, even if it's a scapegoat and an opportunity for scum to look like they're doing something proactive for town

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I've stated that I could see moves being made by scum Gheb. Tell me on why I should be on this wagon.

What part of Gheb's play says he's protown at the moment? He tried to break the game immediately, his reasons for singling you two out are jank, he got defensive when pressured on his decision, and then instead of diffusing the situation, jumps right into mechanical role discussion as if all of that pressure didn't exist so he can say that voteblocking is null on a whole and that we should treat most claims as such. Can you point out townie motive in there because I damn well have yet to see it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

holy os wall save me babby yiisus

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

i have no idea what the **** to make of os calling me an idiot and then following my vote in the same post

os pls

 

[Jdietz43]

@ Gova : I think Massive Carnage is voting Gheb, and Gorf is voting Dabuz based on this last page

(lord knows there's 123 hits for "vote" in Ctrl+F right now because of that wall)

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

"@mod request replacement", probably. If not that then "Holy ****ing wall of ****, GEEZE"

damn i got got

 

[#HBC | J]

Wah I wanted to sleep/play bravely default. Oh well phone post due to actual content now.

@ Maximum Carnage : I was more so asking that question for curiosity and was going to go more into it based on his answering, yet nothing happened so I got nothing which makes me sad.

I may be the only person who read OS' post/wall. Makes me tap my foot in pondering. I like playing with OS just for this reason, he actually does things and doesn't give a **** haha.

@ Jdietz43 : Does Town PR's vote/questioning of you scummy or is it more anti-town.

@Detective Sherlock Hound: What's your opinion on Town PR and Ditzy? Is Gheb someone in your crosshairs?

(P.s. I love this tagging thing.)

That's it for now. Alex, stay cool. *Thumbsup*

I cannot wait for Ghebby to get back.

 

[Jdietz43]

More anti-town than actually scummy. He had reasonable reasons to want to ask them even if they screwed us up doing so.

If he never gets back to us on Gheb, and if Gheb turns up scum... then maybe we'll have something to worry about.