Final Fantasy IX Mafia | Game over! | Who won? :o

[Panta]

My gambit... caught scum? What the ****? Lol.

Ya. I know my actions are inexcusable, but after being on a scumteam with Ryker in PokeMafia I felt ballsy. Ryker is much more experienced in mafia and knows how to play it, while I ... don't. Either way, I don't think my gambit was really that bad as the doctor wasn't even involved and got lynched because of his inactivity and general scumminess.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Your gambit was very bad. Luckily we somehow got a decent outcome from it because J made a dumb error, but if things had gone differently it could have been even worse.

Ryker is free, don't try to emulate his playstyle.

Even if the type of gambit you did was feasible, when the claimed dayvig says he's going to kill you for the counter claim, you don't continue the gambit. You explain your intentions immediately and come clean. I don't understand why you thought that getting shot as the vt would help anyone, especially after telling us not to shoot J who, from town's POV, should have been scum if not for you. The real doctor not being involved was just dumb luck.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Well explained. Think through every action and every possible outcome before you commit to something as silly as that.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why was mafia endgamed here? Endgaming isn't supposed to be "pick an arbitrary period, that group wins and everyone else loses". The only exception is if it's stated as the wincon in the role pm, and even then it's very *******ly if the wincon doesn't essentially boil down to "eliminate all threats to your faction" if your wincon ends the game. Eh, MAYBE marker too, but it's just on the low end of *******ish.


What endgaming is supposed to be is an acceleration of night actions and day phase based on what is inevitable given that informed minorities aren't gonna kill other members of their faction when it's impossible for members of their faction to die without them purposefully killing members of their faction.

A BP and LP pair of siblings without a NK should never endgame 2 mafia, because they'll never get a lynch on them and then mafia has all the time in the world to kill the other sibling. You may consider it necessary for indies to be balanced, but that's not an excuse for underpowering a faction. If you think they're extremely underpowered otherwise, then GIVE THEM SOME OTHER ADVANTAGE. Don't bast*** mod to make up for bad balance choices.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Why was mafia endgamed here? Endgaming isn't supposed to be "pick an arbitrary period, that group wins and everyone else loses". The only exception is if it's stated as the wincon in the role pm, and even then it's very *******ly if the wincon doesn't essentially boil down to "eliminate all threats to your faction" if your wincon ends the game. Eh, MAYBE marker too, but it's just on the low end of *******ish.


What endgaming is supposed to be is an acceleration of night actions and day phase based on what is inevitable given that informed minorities aren't gonna kill other members of their faction when it's impossible for members of their faction to die without them purposefully killing members of their faction.

A BP and LP pair of siblings without a NK should never endgame 2 mafia, because they'll never get a lynch on them and then mafia has all the time in the world to kill the other sibling. You may consider it necessary for indies to be balanced, but that's not an excuse for underpowering a faction. If you think they're extremely underpowered otherwise, then GIVE THEM SOME OTHER ADVANTAGE. Don't bast*** mod to make up for bad balance choices.

You're stupid. Gheb didn't pick an arbitrary faction, he put that we would win in a 2v2 in our role PM from the very start.

And your definition of endgaming doesn't hold true for every setup. Some mods end the game in a 2v2 situation when town still has a double voter left, or there is still a vig in play. In these situations if you accelerated the day phases you could still come out with a town victory.

All you're doing is arguing the concept from the definition of endgaming instead of basing it on the setup. There's nothing wrong with giving indies an advantage in a 2v2 scenario as a buff. That's not ******* modding, that's a personal choice and Gheb balanced the rest of the setup around said choice.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Making an endgame the game end in a manner that isn't predictable unless you're part of the faction is the DEFINITION of ******* modding.

If you wanna give indies an advantage in 2v2, design their roles around it. Don't bandaid it with a *******ish endgaming rules.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Making an endgame the game end in a manner that isn't predictable unless you're part of the faction is the DEFINITION of ******* modding.

If you wanna give indies an advantage in 2v2, design their roles around it. Don't bandaid it with a *******ish endgaming rules.

That's what I'm telling you, he did design our role around it.

Jesus.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

What Adum is saying and is correct about is that, yes, you knew, but there was no way that we could know, nor should we have to be expected to figure it out. I despise any survivor role anyway as by their nature the best they can do is to joint or they're a ******* role on par with Jester. I see both of those roles the same way. It's a joint and I'll see it as such. Mafia played well, forced a MyLo situation with an executioner they had saved. The only reason the record shows that mafia lost is an arbitrary decision by a mod to let this faction win despite having no way to stop the mafia faction.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's what I'm telling you, he did design our role around it.

Jesus.

Yes, he did. I said he chose a bast***ish way to compensate for your role being underpowered.




Ok, I'm sorry I went a bit too far in my criticism, but if you view mafia as first and foremost an intellectual contest, I think that if the game has some *******ish elements (in this case, there was simply no way to plan for the indy's wincon unless you predicted gheb would resolve endgame this way) it should be billed as such.

Not necessarily a full on ******* game, but saying that it has some ****ardish elements in the interest of full disclosure so people don't join the game expecting it to be something that it isn't.

 

[th3kuzinator]

It wasn't arbitrary. It was decided in advance. Just because you had no way of knowing about it, doesn't make the decision any less valid. I also have no idea how you're relating our role back to something *******y as of the likes of a jester. The two are very different things.

Mafia played alright. In reality it was the indies who played well enough to survive to endgame with all the things that could have stopped us. Had we played incorrectly, we would have been picked off by town or by mafia and thus been up ****s creak without a paddle. You forcing the mylo situation and executing someone else which allowed us to survive was due to our play allowing us to slip under your radar/spread fear about one of us being BP. Had I not softclaimed some type of bp during D3, you probably would have tried to executed me D5 or NKd me N5.

Just because you didn't realize you couldn't joint doesn't mean you should have been banking on it anyway. You should never bank on jointing.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Yes, he did. I said he chose a bast***ish way to compensate for your role being underpowered.




Ok, I'm sorry I went a bit too far in my criticism, but if you view mafia as first and foremost an intellectual contest, I think that if the game has some *******ish elements (in this case, there was simply no way to plan for the indy's wincon unless you predicted gheb would resolve endgame this way) it should be billed as such.

Not necessarily a full on ******* game, but saying that it has some ****ardish elements in the interest of full disclosure so people don't join the game expecting it to be something that it isn't.

lol @ bolded. If adumb thinks it, it must be so.

I'm not saying you can't comment on something you think its *******ish. Feel free.

I'm saying you're wrong.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Kuz, shut up. I lynch Jesters and don't care the same way I'll ignore survivors. Survivor is a hard role to play, no **** Sherlock. Congrats, I'm not taking anything away from you. However, your role should not be a threat to me from an end game scenario. I should not be told I lost because I looked at all the information I had and took the sure night kill. What you're saying is that it is completely alright for me to have to straight up assume that there is an Indy AND come to the conclusion that it could end game me when common sense and continuing to play means that it couldn't threaten me. You're funny, I'll be over here chalking up a W in my win column.

 

[th3kuzinator]

I'm not worried about recognition for who won this game. I'm talking about future endgame situations in general. I also don't care in the slightest whether you consider yourself a winner or not in this game so if you think I'm fighting you for that title you're stupid.

Now during that N5 scenario, what were you planning to accomplish? Did you suspect that there was an indy pair involved and by taking the sure NK you were planning on jointing, or did you think you'd come out the victors by killing JTB?

 

[adumbrodeus]

lol @ bolded. If adumb thinks it, it must be so.

I'm not saying you can't comment on something you think its *******ish. Feel free.

I'm saying you're wrong.

Well, it's obviously my opinion. But I think I have supported my opinion quite well. In general, if a game is billed as an intellectual contest (as mafia is) a player should not have to read the mod to understand the endgame mechanics. It's impossible for the players to predict and is therefore it is unfair to not bill it as a *******ish game, if only slightly.


I made a post about this in the mafia discussion thread, we should probably take this over there at this point since it's mostly about future games.


Also, me agreeing with ryker about mafia theory?! the sky is falling.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Take it to the theoretical discussion thread.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Oh and another question from J about Hilt making me mad: Hilt's posting style doesn't make me mad. He has the type of arrogance I find enjoyable to read, similar to that of Overswarm.

Oh and I lost it when I read this.

Edit: Oh this is closed, how about that.