Final Destination Forms: How Will We Deal With Them?

[Tremendo Dude]

Does For Glory even give you that option? I thought it was FD variants only.

It doesn't. However, the Glory mode might end up being a time match instead of stock, so make of that what you will. I'm looking forward to the stages for local play, personally.

 

[boss_man_sippy]

It doesn't. However, the Glory mode might end up being a time match instead of stock, so make of that what you will. I'm looking forward to the stages for local play, personally.

Well they can still change up some of the rules of For Glory before the game's release. Who's not to say that it might give you the option to select Battlefield?

 

[Empyrean]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by the existence of a FD version of ****ing Battlefield.

 

[Luigi#1]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by the existence of a FD version of ****ing Battlefield.

Eh, every stage.

 

[Morbi]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by the existence of a FD version of ****ing Battlefield.

I have always wanted to play on Battlefield without the platforms; so at least someone is happy!

 

[D-idara]

The underside can have a huge effect on the ability to recover, and ability to stage spike and other things. I doubt any stage will be banned over its underside, but it does make a difference. Also, it seems that you're implying that edgeguarding is unfair, which is really funny.

Edguarding's not unfair, edgeguarding being your only course of action IS kinda unfair, c'mon, launch people with actual attack tactics! And the underside can have an effect on the ability to recover, but not a huge one!

look at *page 23* i believe in the "Why do people disagree with tech skill" forum and ull understand that idiara aint the most competitive friendly player.

Dignified.

The main problem with this actually exists as the biggest overall problem of the competitive Smash community, refusing to change and wanting the game to change 100% around your own playstyle as opposed to mixing up your playstyle for the different stages and conditions, yes, the underside makes a difference, a platform on the right makes a difference, a platform on the left makes another difference, JUST PLAY THE GAME! I still don't know what beautiful person made it possible for Halberd and Rainbow Cruise to be allowed at Brawl tournaments, but that's the kind of thing that would kill the (true at the moment) stereotype of No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

As far as FD stages being banned that isn't going to happen... that really doesn't make any sense. I'd assume they are all legal. Whether the underside is different or not doesn't make a difference on whether a stage is a starter or not. Of course they will all be starters.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Edguarding's not unfair, edgeguarding being your only course of action IS kinda unfair, c'mon, launch people with actual attack tactics! And the underside can have an effect on the ability to recover, but not a huge one!

Dignified.

The main problem with this actually exists as the biggest overall problem of the competitive Smash community, refusing to change and wanting the game to change 100% around your own playstyle as opposed to mixing up your playstyle for the different stages and conditions, yes, the underside makes a difference, a platform on the right makes a difference, a platform on the left makes another difference, JUST PLAY THE GAME! I still don't know what beautiful person made it possible for Halberd and Rainbow Cruise to be allowed at Brawl tournaments, but that's the kind of thing that would kill the (true at the moment) stereotype of No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination.

HI!
Alas being the one to actually try and change a meta game in a community always lead to being looked down apon.
I don't know why people are so opposed to a FD metagame when like 3 other regions have FD only meta's but thats just me.( and 3 other regions.)

 

[mimgrim]

HI!
Alas being the one to actually try and change a meta game in a community always lead to being looked down apon.
I don't know why people are so opposed to a FD metagame when like 3 other regions have FD only meta's but thats just me.( and 3 other regions.)

Name all 3.

The only one I even know of is Japan and I have recently been told that isn't true anymore. :/

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Name all 3.

The only one I even know of is Japan and I have recently been told that isn't true anymore. :/

Well it's that i head that japans was changing but i wasent sure so i did't qoute such.
But several stations in europe and south america as well use FD in alot of the main Smash tournys.

 

[mimgrim]

But several stations in europe and south america as well use FD in alot of the main Smash tournys.

FD only?

I want cold hard proof please.

 

[Empyrean]

Either way, the North American scene is by far the largest one in the world, probably larger than all the rest combined. Why would it be necessary for them to change their habits/rulesets/preferences when it has worked pretty well so far?

And even if the characters are balanced with FD in mind, that doesn't mean that everything will turn out okay. There is no doubt that some characters will thrive far more on stages with platforms.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

FD only?

I want cold hard proof please.

Geez i read this so long ago i even have a hard time finding legit pages saying japan used to do FD.
Sorry i can't link so you can disregard i can understand the need for proof its a big claim.

 

[Chimera]

Edguarding's not unfair, edgeguarding being your only course of action IS kinda unfair, c'mon, launch people with actual attack tactics! And the underside can have an effect on the ability to recover, but not a huge one!

I disagree with your first point. I somewhat agree on the second.

 

[Dravidian]

I still can't come to terms with there not a least being Battlefield variations. So many characters rely on the mere option of having platforms in order to stand a fighting chance. To just remove it altogether seems halfassed. A step in the right direction, but halfassed none the less.

Look at the gameplay footage. Characters seem to have better ground and anti-projectile options; i.e. the characters are being balanced so they wont have to rely on platforms; rebalancing characters and giving them new moves and options instead of giving a few stages platforms is in no way half-arsed.

This is a new game with new balancing, why is everyone basing complaints on the characters old movesets and not their updated ones? That's no different from complaining about metaknight and not wanting him in because he'd be op in smash 4.

 

[D-idara]

HI!
Alas being the one to actually try and change a meta game in a community always lead to being looked down apon.
I don't know why people are so opposed to a FD metagame when like 3 other regions have FD only meta's but thats just me.( and 3 other regions.)

Many things that should be done are usually frowned upon, the players chopping off parts of the game that slighty shake their standard rules is incredibly toxic to the game's depth.

 

[Mike_Tha_Hero]

Look at the gameplay footage. Characters seem to have better ground and anti-projectile options; i.e. the characters are being balanced so they wont have to rely on platforms; rebalancing characters and giving them new moves and options instead of giving a few stages platforms is in no way half-arsed.

This is a new game with new balancing, why is everyone basing complaints on the characters old movesets and not their updated ones? That's no different from complaining about metaknight and not wanting him in because he'd be op in smash 4.

Which characters? If you can't make a case for the entire roster then the mode is flawed.

 

[Hayzie]

To my knowledge, people are under the impression that Little Mac on FD is unfair because he's OP, etc.

Yeah, if you let him beat you up. I don't think it's unfair. You read your opponent just like you normally would. If his weakness is in the air, you obviously have better chances of edgeguarding. Knock him off the platform and see how fair it is to Little Mac. People act like they have no chance or they're not gonna inflict any kind of damage.

I disagree. Skills and mind-games, peeps.

 

[Muster]

FD only?

I want cold hard proof please.

Japan used to be FD only in their melee metagame. (they also had a more grab centric metagame apparently.)

this is no longer the case, but i'd imagine that japanese veterans wouldn't have much trouble switching back to FD only now that there's more variety.

Many things that should be done are usually frowned upon, the players chopping off parts of the game that slighty shake their standard rules is incredibly toxic to the game's depth.

This is heavily debatable, but here is not the place for it.

Look at the gameplay footage. Characters seem to have better ground and anti-projectile options; i.e. the characters are being balanced so they wont have to rely on platforms; rebalancing characters and giving them new moves and options instead of giving a few stages platforms is in no way half-arsed.

This is a new game with new balancing, why is everyone basing complaints on the characters old movesets and not their updated ones? That's no different from complaining about metaknight and not wanting him in because he'd be op in smash 4.

Key words, Seem to.
From what i've seen, characters Marth has had little changes to his moveset, which will give him a major advantage on FD.
There's also the fact that no matter how many flashy kicks and jumps you add onto characters, they will always be at a disadvantage to zoning characters like Megaman and Falco on FD, due to lack of projectiles.


Personally, i think that all FD's should be allowed as counterpicks. A Mario main may want to use an FD variant that has a pillar base so he could walljump farther up when recovering, or a Pit main may want the curved underside so that he can possibly send the opponent beneath the stage.

 

[mimgrim]

Japan used to be FD only in their melee metagame. (they also had a more grab centric metagame apparently.)

this is no longer the case, but i'd imagine that japanese veterans wouldn't have much trouble switching back to FD only now that there's more variety.

I was talking about the other regions he brought up. He said 3 of them. The only I knew of that ever did FD only was Japan and that was in the past. He wasn't able to provide proof though.

 

[Katy Parry]

lol

anyways, i think we can ban versions with weird terrain that could make stage spiking too easy (Mario galaxy seems to work like that), those whose lower parts can hinder recoveries (think of Brawl's FD and the weird edges down there), maybe those that help recoveries too (anything that has walls instead of being a floating platform)

I'm pretty sure all FD stages are the SAME as FD. That's the point of them doing that. FD is known for its fair fight no hazard approach. The same obvious goes for all of them.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm pretty sure all FD stages are the SAME as FD. That's the point of them doing that. FD is known for its fair fight no hazard approach. The same obvious goes for all of them.

...They aren't all the same course though. That's assuming that it's super easy to grab the edge like Melee's FD or if they all have an edge like Brawl's FD. They might vary. Another is that some have nothing underneath the stage(being a huge platform), while at least the Gerudo Valley version is just fighting on top of a giant wall. There's also whether you can go through the bottom of the stage like a regular platform(like Congo Jungle in 64).

We don't know enough to judge how they'll be in gameplay. We know they aren't the actual same course, though. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually vary quite a bit, besides the Platform VS Wall part.

 

[Dravidian]

Which characters? If you can't make a case for the entire roster then the mode is flawed.

I can make a case for all of the currently revealed characters

General: better ground dash

Greninja: Fast, counter, teleport, projectiles
Charizard: Multiple jumps, heavy (last longer), projectile, flaming dash attack
Yoshi: one of the best jumps, aimable projectile
Sheik: Fast, teleport, two projectiles
ZSS: Projectile, ranged melee weapon, a kick that reflects, long range grab
Diddy: Bananas, projectile
Lucario: Projectile, force palm, counter, extreme speed (al get stronger at higher damage)
Little Mac: super armor, moves with projectile invincibility, low profile while running, fast
Dedede: gordos, heavy, hammer has great range
Zelda: Teleport, reflector, djins fire, knight projectile
Marth: Fast, Counter
Rosalina: Ranged Melee, projectiles, deflector(down B cancels projectiles)
Sonic: Extremely Fast, great mobility
Toon Link: Bombs, arrow, sheild, grounded up B reflects, long range grab
Peach: Projectiles, Floats
Luigi: Projectiles that cover a good area, scuttle can go under some projectiles
Olimar: Projectiles that can act as shields and get stronger over time (5 variations)
Mario: Fireball, cape
Villager: Pocket, Bowling ball, tree
Donkey Kong: Heavy, armored specials, foward smash is good for nullifying projectiles
Link: same as toon link
Samus: Charge Shot, missiles, bombs(down B), long ranged grab
Megaman: fifty bajillion projectiles....give or take a few
Wii Fit trainer: Sun Salutation, Volley ball, ability to power up moves(deep breathing) which includes her projectiles
Kirby: multiple jumps, final cutter has projectile, down b grants form of invincibility, can absorb neutral b projectile/anti-projectile powers, can duck under most projectiles
Fox: blaster, reflector, fast
Pikachu: small profile, two projectiles, fast
Bowser: Heavy, Projectile, faster than previous versions
Pit: Reflector, projectiles

Key words, Seem to.
From what i've seen, characters Marth has had little changes to his moveset, which will give him a major advantage on FD.
There's also the fact that no matter how many flashy kicks and jumps you add onto characters, they will always be at a disadvantage to zoning characters like Megaman and Falco on FD, due to lack of projectiles.

Not necessarily true. The Lack of projectiles is fine as long as the characters have a viable way of dealing with them: reflectors, deflectors, counters, telleports, speed, mobility, super armor, absorbers, far reaching attacks/grabs, etc.

Just look at your example, Marth. He does Just fine against projectile users. And need I remid everyone of the Jiggs/Star Critter matchup?

 

[Muster]

Not necessarily true. The Lack of projectiles is fine as long as the characters have a viable way of dealing with them: reflectors, deflectors, counters, telleports, speed, mobility, super armor, absorbers, far reaching attacks/grabs, etc.

Reflectors and deflectors aren't viable ways of dealing with projectiles, any Falco main worth his socks would be jumping and mixing up lasers. When using a reflector/deflector/absorber, you're just leaving yourself open.
Very few characters can teleport, and a barrage of lasers will not discriminate as to where they land.
Speed and mobility can help, but very few characters have this.
Super Armor is not able to be used to viably counter projectiles, and Bowser isn't able to walk towards the enemy backwards without leaving himself wide open.
Very few attacks will help when you're on the other side of FD.

There is a very important point that i will concede, however.
Fox's and by extension probably falco's Blaster does not cancel upon landing, so their projectile game will be significantly slower in this game.

Just look at your example, Marth. He does Just fine against projectile users. And need I remid everyone of the Jiggs/Star Critter matchup?

Marth is a spacing character. He makes up for lack of projectiles in the fact that he can keep the opponent at a distance with his tippers.
He does fine against projectile users in melee because of waveshielding and the lack of punishment from combos from lasers.
A Falco player can easily rack up Marth's damage from afar, but Marth has the advantage when he's up close, because Falco can't touch him. Other characters do not have this benefit, and as such suffer greatly from a Falco matchup.

Mega man will have a much easier time doing everything on FD, as well.

Jiggs has 5 jumps and insane horizontal air speed, that isn't a fair comparison.

 

[mimgrim]

There is a very important point that i will concede, however.
Fox's and by extension probably falco's Blaster does not cancel upon landing, so their projectile game will be significantly slower in this game.

Are we sure that wasn't the person just getting the timing wrong or something like that?

 

[Muster]

Are we sure that wasn't the person just getting the timing wrong or something like that?

This could possibly be the case.
The Bit i'm talking about is in the technical tidbit fox vs samus section of the beginning of the direct, just an fyi for anyone wondering.

 

[Dravidian]

Reflectors and deflectors aren't viable ways of dealing with projectiles, any Falco main worth his socks would be jumping and mixing up lasers. When using a reflector/deflector/absorber, you're just leaving yourself open.
Very few characters can teleport, and a barrage of lasers will not discriminate as to where they land.
Speed and mobility can help, but very few characters have this.
Super Armor is not able to be used to viably counter projectiles, and Bowser isn't able to walk towards the enemy backwards without leaving himself wide open.
Very few attacks will help when you're on the other side of FD.

There is a very important point that i will concede, however.
Fox's and by extension probably falco's Blaster does not cancel upon landing, so their projectile game will be significantly slower in this game.



Marth is a spacing character. He makes up for lack of projectiles in the fact that he can keep the opponent at a distance with his tippers.
He does fine against projectile users in melee because of waveshielding and the lack of punishment from combos from lasers.
A Falco player can easily rack up Marth's damage from afar, but Marth has the advantage when he's up close, because Falco can't touch him. Other characters do not have this benefit, and as such suffer greatly from a Falco matchup.

Mega man will have a much easier time doing everything on FD, as well.

Jiggs has 5 jumps and insane horizontal air speed, that isn't a fair comparison.

Reflector and deflector are viable. You dont usually use them up close. You use them at a distance to force the opponent to come to you if they want to do damage and you occasionally throw them out during an advance to make the opponent wary of randomly throwing out projectiles. Plus at far to mid ranges it's extremely difficult to get a good punish; taking a few shots is nothing for most characters. At close range they're seldom needed since the opponent usually isnt at a safe range to use projectiles outside of combos.

And it doesnt matter if few characters can use teleports. I said that all characters have options, not that all their options were the same. And teleporting helps because it allows the user to manipulate how they can approach and decreases how many shots they'll take getting in vs running at the opponent.

Same thing with speed and mobility.

And super armor is viable because most moves that have it either reach far (donkey punch, Little mack neutral b) or have aoe/projectile qualities (Ike neutral b), so they're more effective from mid range than far.

And I was talking about Bowsers fire breath. I actually wasnt aware his shell could block projectiles (if that's what you're saying). Will it still block them if he's jumping backwards?

And I dont see why using Jiggs as an example isnt fair. I listed jumps and mobility and low profiles as methods and they're all legit ways of dealing with projectiles that she possesses.

Concerning Marth, yes, that's a part of balance, but he's not the only character with good spacing, especially when you consider Brawl and Smash 4. There are also characters faster and more mobile than him. The main reason Falco is an issue for most is because he can make a wall of projectiles that do stun (in a game that only allows one air dodge). The only other characters that can effectively do that are Toon Link (normal link is too slow), Snake, and maybe Dedede, but the issue isnt as bad in Brawl .

And Megaman wont be that bad. Check out his gameplay. Almost all his ranged moves are either b moves with start up or require charging (side space). Only his normal buster shots dont, but they barely do any stun or damage. I dont think they did any stun in the recent direct. Megaman has a great variety of projectiles, but atm he's limited by how many he can use effectively at once.

 

[Muster]

Reflector and deflector are viable. You dont usually use them up close. You use them at a distance to force the opponent to come to you if they want to do damage and you occasionally throw them out during an advance to make the opponent wary of randomly throwing out projectiles. Plus at far to mid ranges it's extremely difficult to get a good punish; taking a few shots is nothing for most characters. At close range they're seldom needed since the opponent usually isnt at a safe range to use projectiles outside of combos.

Using a reflector to bring an enemy closer does not work if you are lagging behind or playing a defensive player. A vast majority of reflectors either cancel momentum or leave you wide open for attacks, so throwing them out on an approach is not a viable option. "taking a few shots" is the difference between life and death, and what makes Falco's projectile game what it is. If he isn't in your face, he's wittling away at you so you're at a disadvantage for close quarters. Platforms are the best help against this advantage, and why platform stages are considered the most neutral.

And it doesnt matter if few characters can use teleports. I said that all characters have options, not that all their options were the same. And teleporting helps because it allows the user to manipulate how they can approach and decreases how many shots they'll take getting in vs running at the opponent.

Teleporting leaves you wide open at the end, which would just get you damage or pushed back to the start.

Same thing with speed and mobility.

The thing is, most characters don't have the speed or mobility to approach a projectile firing character reliably. The few ones who do may be fine, but there's still a big chunk of the cast at a disadvantage.

And super armor is viable because most moves that have it either reach far (donkey punch, Little mack neutral b) or have aoe/projectile qualities (Ike neutral b), so they're more effective from mid range than far.

Thing is, they're either not getting closer to the opponent (ike), or predictable as hell (little mac). A donkey punch is not going to help at the range a falco will be shooting,

And I was talking about Bowsers fire breath. I actually wasnt aware his shell could block projectiles (if that's what you're saying). Will it still block them if he's jumping backwards?

Not sure how the super armor works, he's shown not flinching when facing away and standing still. Whether or not this carries onto movement or just acts like link's shield with damage taken is unknown.

And I dont see why using Jiggs as an example isnt fair. I listed jumps and mobility and low profiles as methods and they're all legit ways of dealing with projectiles that she possesses.

Jiggs is the only one who can do that reliably, though. It's a significant part of her metagame in melee, and it happened to be one of the few things not butchered in brawl. jiggs still doesn't fair well on Fd, however. See here
[collapse=Jiggs stage discussion thread]

Final Destination​

--Poor Stage. Character Dependent--


Pros:

There are less platforms for us to be pressured on.
It is much easier for us to juggle other characters.
Using rollout on the stage leaves less options for our opponents. (still doesn't make this move safe whatsoever)



Cons:
There is no safe way for jigglypuff to land without punishment.
Characters with good stage control will reign over us.
Alof of puffs air game is limited.
Less room for rollout mindgames and ledge/platform pressure.
The stage is much longer than others, making it harder to scrooge.

Characters you may want to bring here:



It limits some characters stage and platform control. Characters such as Mario can't use their projectiles as freely and makes it more difficult for the opponent. As for Ganon, it makes it easier to avoid his attacks.

Characters you don't want to see here.



For one thing, snake's mines really mess up our already poor ground game. Snake with platforms is broken, but snake not giving us a place to land safely is even more broken. The proximity mines and grenades mess with our rollout.

For Falco and Diddy they have amazing stage control. Falco can camp very easily and phantasm and lasers are incredibly effective on this stage. Diddy's bananas make this stage very difficult to keep control of.

HOWEVER.

Dapuffster says:

TL;DR
This is a bad stage if you're playing a ground game character. If you're playing against a character with any grab releases, this is not the place to go. Take characters here if the character depends on platforms to perform well. That is the only reason you should be going here.
[/collapse]​

I've bolded the important parts of the post, which pretty much illustrate my points.
There are plenty other examples of a character not being good on FD. Jiggs being one example, and her advantages on this stage being 4 others.

This isn't even all the examples, either. there are many characters with bad matchups or a bad game on FD only.​

Concerning Marth, yes, that's a part of balance, but he's not the only character with good spacing, especially when you consider Brawl and Smash 4. There are also characters faster and more mobile than him. The main reason Falco is an issue for most is because he can make a wall of projectiles that do stun (in a game that only allows one air dodge). The only other characters that can effectively do that are Toon Link (normal link is too slow), Snake, and maybe Dedede, but the issue isnt as bad in Brawl .

Unless Meta knight doesn't get changed, Marth will still be the best at what he does, and his mobility will destroy other characters on a flat stage.

And Megaman wont be that bad. Check out his gameplay. Almost all his ranged moves are either b moves with start up or require charging (side space). Only his normal buster shots dont, but they barely do any stun or damage. I dont think they did any stun in the recent direct. Megaman has a great variety of projectiles, but atm he's limited by how many he can use effectively at once.

His saw blade can be fired in any direction and has a fair amount of knockback, when coupled with his megabuster, he'll be a zoning nightmare in the right hands. Remember the match between mario and megaman? He pretty much carried mario across the map with his buster. this will only be worsened by a lack of platforms.
His buster still has hitstun, shown in the direct.

Edit: Should've added this in the first place
[collapse=]
Final Destination

This long, flat, traditionally starter stage has recently seen a lot of argument that it is in fact closer to a counter than a starter. The simple design of the stage seems to polarize some match ups more than it creates a level playing field, detracting from what a typical starter stage aims for ("the best available stage between two parties").

• Details:
  • Static layout
    
    
  • Wider than most stages
    
    
  • No platforms
    
    
  • Average Blast Zones
    
    
  • Sides can be wall-jumped / wall-clung
    
    
  • The sides of the stage are known for catching characters who are trying to recover. The shape of the sides makes the precision requirement for recovering to the ledge slightly greater than most other stages in the game.
  
  
• Gameplay / Strategy:
  • Lack of platforms means that approaching is very linear and matchups where projectile camping and/or chain grabs are dominant become more skewed on this stage, as there's no platform to camp or use for positioning or to vary recoveries.
    
    
  • Due to strong character-specific advantages / disadvantages on this stage, it's often banned during sets because it can act as a solid counterpick for many characters, most notably Falco, Diddy and Ice Climbers.
  
  
• Usage:
  • While this stage was a staple starter for most of Brawl's lifetime, recently it has been removed from average-sized starter lists of many tournaments and added to the counterpick list. Some regions have decided to remove it from starter lists with less than 5 or 7 stages, while in other regions it's used as a starter on lists with as little as 3 stages.
  
  
• Stage Diagrams:
  
  
  
  
  
  [/collapse]

FD will always favor certain players, it is not the ideal stage. Smash bros is not a game that has characters able to be balanced in such a way, platforms will always be an important part of the metagame, lest we become street fighter with a nintendo skin.

 

[XA-tan]

None of the FDs will have stage hazards. I believe blast zones and sizes will differ, and obviously stage shapes differ, BUT I think all FDs should be legal starters, period. Jesus christ the whole point of making every stage FD is so that we're NOT playing the same stages over and over...

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Jesus christ the whole point of making every stage FD is so that we're NOT playing the same stages over and over...

But that's not the case. The stage will look different, and the underside will vary, but the stage itself will in essence be the same.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but I cant say enough how much it seems like a missed opportunity for balanced stage variety.

 

[XA-tan]

But that's not the case. The stage will look different, and the underside will vary, but the stage itself will in essence be the same.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but I cant say enough how much it seems like a missed opportunity for balanced stage variety.

Sorry, I believe you are addressing a different issue. I am simply against reducing any version of FD to ban/counterpick in a potential competitive setting. I don't necessarily agree with the decision to remake every stage into FD specifically, but it is what we are getting. At the very least, 20 versions of FD + some neutrals is better than one version of FD + some neutrals as starter stages.

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

If someone bans FD do they ban them all or just that specific FD? I'm assuming the first option..

 

[Morbi]

If someone bans FD do they ban them all or just that specific FD? I'm assuming the first option..

I honestly believe it to be the second option; a stage needs a reason to be banned. Group banning all Final Destination stages because one isn't viable isn't a reasonable course of action.

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

I honestly believe it to be the second option; a stage needs a reason to be banned. Group banning all Final Destination stages because one isn't viable isn't a reasonable course of action.

I mean that if you go play a 2nd round and someone bans FD (since they want to avoid Marth vs ASS or w/e on FD) if someone blocks FD that's a blanket thing right?

 

[mimgrim]

I mean that if you go play a 2nd round and someone bans FD (since they want to avoid Marth vs *** or w/e on FD) if someone blocks FD that's a blanket thing right?

I would say it should be like that. They are all in essence the same stage. Completely flat and no platforms. With the only difference possibly being size, ledges, and underside. Which is why, again, I think we should only make default FD the only FD starter stage and allow all the FDs to be in CPing but grouped together, ban one you ban them all as you will be banning them mainly for the purpose of completely flat stage with no platforms. However the person who successfully CPs can then pick whichever FD he wants.

 

[Dravidian]

Using a reflector to bring an enemy closer does not work if you are lagging behind or playing a defensive player.

Then that's the players fault. If you're being defensive when you should you deserve to lose.

A vast majority of reflectors either cancel momentum or leave you wide open for attacks, so throwing them out on an approach is not a viable option. "taking a few shots" is the difference between life and death, and what makes Falco's projectile game what it is. If he isn't in your face, he's wittling away at you so you're at a disadvantage for close quarters. Platforms are the best help against this advantage, and why platform stages are considered the most neutral.

That's why it's done mid-far range or in the air. And you're forgetting that projectile users have long start up or cool down so it balances out.

Teleporting leaves you wide open at the end, which would just get you damage or pushed back to the start.

The same applies to any technique. Timing is everything

The thing is, most characters don't have the speed or mobility to approach a projectile firing character reliably. The few ones who do may be fine, but there's still a big chunk of the cast at a disadvantage.

well I did list other ways of dealing with them.

Thing is, they're either not getting closer to the opponent (ike), or predictable as hell (little mac). A donkey punch is not going to help at the range a falco will be shooting,

No one said it would be easy for all characters. It will take work to get in with the tools they have, but they have the tools. You've never lumped/short hopped->neutral be to nullify projectile walls as Ike? Or short hopped->side B'd? And again Donkeysforward smash destroys projectiles so walk(not run) forward -> forward smash. Will it work every single time? No, but it works enough to be viable. Once in range you can use donkey punch.

Not sure how the super armor works, he's shown not flinching when facing away and standing still. Whether or not this carries onto movement or just acts like link's shield with damage taken is unknown.

Ah. K.

Jiggs is the only one who can do that reliably, though. It's a significant part of her metagame in melee, and it happened to be one of the few things not butchered in brawl. jiggs still doesn't fair well on Fd, however. See here
[collapse=Jiggs stage discussion thread]

Final Destination​

--Poor Stage. Character Dependent--


Pros:

There are less platforms for us to be pressured on.
It is much easier for us to juggle other characters.
Using rollout on the stage leaves less options for our opponents. (still doesn't make this move safe whatsoever)



Cons:
There is no safe way for jigglypuff to land without punishment.
Characters with good stage control will reign over us.
Alof of puffs air game is limited.
Less room for rollout mindgames and ledge/platform pressure.
The stage is much longer than others, making it harder to scrooge.

Characters you may want to bring here:



It limits some characters stage and platform control. Characters such as Mario can't use their projectiles as freely and makes it more difficult for the opponent. As for Ganon, it makes it easier to avoid his attacks.

Characters you don't want to see here.



For one thing, snake's mines really mess up our already poor ground game. Snake with platforms is broken, but snake not giving us a place to land safely is even more broken. The proximity mines and grenades mess with our rollout.

For Falco and Diddy they have amazing stage control. Falco can camp very easily and phantasm and lasers are incredibly effective on this stage. Diddy's bananas make this stage very difficult to keep control of.

HOWEVER.

Dapuffster says:

TL;DR
This is a bad stage if you're playing a ground game character. If you're playing against a character with any grab releases, this is not the place to go. Take characters here if the character depends on platforms to perform well. That is the only reason you should be going here.
[/collapse]​

I've bolded the important parts of the post, which pretty much illustrate my points.
There are plenty other examples of a character not being good on FD. Jiggs being one example, and her advantages on this stage being 4 others.

The lack of platforms is listed as a pro and it looks like it's focusing on ground game instead of edge/air game. And isnt Jiggs at the bottom of the tier list because of her nerfs? Seems weird to suddenly blame it on a stage type to me.

This isn't even all the examples, either. there are many characters with bad matchups or a bad game on FD only.

yay purposely anti-competitive character balance!​

Unless Meta knight doesn't get changed, Marth will still be the best at what he does, and his mobility will destroy other characters on a flat stage.

The games not out, not everyone has been announced, and everyone is going through move and balance changes. That is a very bold and probably incorrect statement you're making

His saw blade can be fired in any direction and has a fair amount of knockback, when coupled with his megabuster, he'll be a zoning nightmare in the right hands. Remember the match between mario and megaman? He pretty much carried mario across the map with his buster. this will only be worsened by a lack of platforms.
His buster still has hitstun, shown in the direct.

He has to pull out the saw blade (which he holds as an item which temporarily removes the use of the megabuster) and it's not very fast. And there's a reason I said to look at recent footage. It didnt do any knock back or stun.

Edit: Should've added this in the first place
[collapse=]
Final Destination

This long, flat, traditionally starter stage has recently seen a lot of argument that it is in fact closer to a counter than a starter. The simple design of the stage seems to polarize some match ups more than it creates a level playing field, detracting from what a typical starter stage aims for ("the best available stage between two parties").

• Details:
  • Static layout
    
    
  • Wider than most stages
    
    
  • No platforms
    
    
  • Average Blast Zones
    
    
  • Sides can be wall-jumped / wall-clung
    
    
  • The sides of the stage are known for catching characters who are trying to recover. The shape of the sides makes the precision requirement for recovering to the ledge slightly greater than most other stages in the game.
  
  
• Gameplay / Strategy:
  • Lack of platforms means that approaching is very linear and matchups where projectile camping and/or chain grabs are dominant become more skewed on this stage, as there's no platform to camp or use for positioning or to vary recoveries.
    
    
  • Due to strong character-specific advantages / disadvantages on this stage, it's often banned during sets because it can act as a solid counterpick for many characters, most notably Falco, Diddy and Ice Climbers.
  
  
• Usage:
  • While this stage was a staple starter for most of Brawl's lifetime, recently it has been removed from average-sized starter lists of many tournaments and added to the counterpick list. Some regions have decided to remove it from starter lists with less than 5 or 7 stages, while in other regions it's used as a starter on lists with as little as 3 stages.
  
  
• Stage Diagrams:
  
  
  
  
  
  [/collapse]

FD will always favor certain players, it is not the ideal stage. Smash bros is not a game that has characters able to be balanced in such a way, platforms will always be an important part of the metagame, lest we become street fighter with a nintendo skin.

No. Players chose to make it part of the meta. Look at Japan and their Final Dest only tournaments. And just saying that a stage cant be balanced well, wont make it so. Again, characters have better options in this game. Not to mention there are still other stages in the game to choose from, all of which give advantages to different characters (but they aren't all banned), so why exactly are people try to find excuse to ban final dest?

What's with our community and self nerfing/mutilation? Other games communities learn to adapt to matchups and counter picks, but we just want to ban even the smallest of things if it makes a few people uncomfortable. Why are we acting like banning Final dest will make every game a theoretical 5:5 match up (yes, tier lists are theory, not fact, other wise they wouldnt shift)? An up hill battle is different from a broken matchup/character. And seeing as how it took years for metaknight to be banned (stages were banned instead....which didnt actually help, but just destroyed stage diversity) I cant say I trust this community's overall ability to make judgement calls on balance.

 

[Muster]

Then that's the players fault. If you're being defensive when you should you deserve to lose.

Playing against a defensive player. If you're playing a defensive falco, a reflector won't do you ****.

That's why it's done mid-far range or in the air. And you're forgetting that projectile users have long start up or cool down so it balances out.

A projectile can't be effectively reflected for damage unless you're a phantasm away, which is close enough for Falco.

The same applies to any technique. Timing is everything

You said yourself, a wall of projectiles can be made with a character. Unless the other player messes up, there will be no "timing" to get.

well I did list other ways of dealing with them.

not effective ways that all characters share. You're seeming to forget that Characters are getting a disadvantage at final destination, and that's the point being argued here.

No one said it would be easy for all characters. It will take work to get in with the tools they have, but they have the tools. You've never lumped/short hopped->neutral be to nullify projectile walls as Ike? Or short hopped->side B'd? And again Donkeysforward smash destroys projectiles so walk(not run) forward -> forward smash. Will it work every single time? No, but it works enough to be viable. Once in range you can use donkey punch.

You've basically just proved my point. It will be harder for certain characters to effectively deal with projectile characters on final destination, that's why the matchup is considered bad, and why they are at a disadvantage on final destination!
Ike's super armor is still getting him damage you dingus, that's exactly what the other player wants.
You just said it again, the point of projectiles are to bring up your damage so that you're at a disadvantage in close range combat, and you've just done it just so you can try to land a donkey punch.

The lack of platforms is listed as a pro and it looks like it's focusing on ground game instead of edge/air game. And isnt Jiggs at the bottom of the tier list because of her nerfs? Seems weird to suddenly blame it on a stage type to me.
​

Jiggs has the same disadvantage in melee, it's just less clear because rest kills at low %s.
FD is also literally the only "neutral" stage jigglypuff (and a lot of other characters) has a bad time with.

The games not out, not everyone has been announced, and everyone is going through move and balance changes. That is a very bold and probably incorrect statement you're making

Yeah, like all the balance changes that went through with brawl? except you know marth was basically untouched and kept himself up with falco on the tier list. Marth doesn't need changes, and the fundamentals to his moveset have already been revealed as unchanged.

He has to pull out the saw blade (which he holds as an item which temporarily removes the use of the megabuster) and it's not very fast. And there's a reason I said to look at recent footage. It didnt do any knock back or stun.

Yes it did. Check Megaman's character section of the direct, he throws the saw blade immediately but has the option of holding as an item. It's also shown knocking back Luigi pretty far (Far enough for the trail behind)

No. Players chose to make it part of the meta. Look at Japan and their Final Dest only tournaments. And just saying that a stage cant be balanced well, wont make it so. Again, characters have better options in this game. Not to mention there are still other stages in the game to choose from, all of which give advantages to different characters (but they aren't all banned), so why exactly are people try to find excuse to ban final dest?

Ban final destination? Bro have you even read my posts? Final destination should be a counterpick.
Having the community sort out the most balanced version and setting all the rest to counterpicks would be fine, as stage striking exists for a reason.
Japan quit final destination only ages ago, but their tier list still has the effects from that time.

What's with our community and self nerfing/mutilation? Other games communities learn to adapt to matchups and counter picks, but we just want to ban even the smallest of things if it makes a few people uncomfortable. Why are we acting like banning Final dest will make every game a theoretical 5:5 match up (yes, tier lists are theory, not fact, other wise they wouldnt shift)? An up hill battle is different from a broken matchup/character. And seeing as how it took years for metaknight to be banned (stages were banned instead....which didnt actually help, but just destroyed stage diversity) I cant say I trust this community's overall ability to make judgement calls on balance.

Says the person outside the competitive community. Other games have basically neutral only stages, and there are still other fighting games like soul caliber that ban stages for the ledges. I said before, No intent of making final destination anything but the counterpick it should be. Matchups can be bad for a character in general, but if picking a stage makes that matchup bad or worse, then that stage should not be a starter.
You're arguing that all characters have effective options to deal with projectiles, that the matchup isn't even. The point here is that the reason they are uneven is the stage, and pretty much every other stage with this effect has counterpick slapped on or is banned for over-centralizing. Smash should be about the character's battle, and that's why MK was only banned after years of playing, and not before the stages.
You do realize that there are people who main characters and not people who main stages? Every choice the competitive community makes has a chance to severely harm the reputation of the community as a whole, and banning meta knight would just alienate the thousands of people who mained him. You may say it's their fault for maining a broken character, but they aren't going to hear that. They'll just all get mad at the people who made the decisions and the TO's enforcing them.

 

[Dravidian]

Playing against a defensive player. If you're playing a defensive falco, a reflector won't do you ****.

If Falco's on the other side of the stage being defensive and you're on the other side with a reflector.....exactly how is falco hurting you?

A projectile can't be effectively reflected for damage unless you're a phantasm away, which is close enough for Falco.

I dont remember saying it was for damage. I remember saying that it's a way to deal with projectiles.

You said yourself, a wall of projectiles can be made with a character. Unless the other player messes up, there will be no "timing" to get.

I dunno what to say if you dont think defense or getting around projectiles doesnt require timing...

not effective ways that all characters share. You're seeming to forget that Characters are getting a disadvantage at final destination, and that's the point being argued here.

It's not the point I'm arguing at all. I'm saying that all the characters have options, not that that they share the same options. And again, all stages will favor certain characters. What matter is if the stage or a strategy allowed by the stage is broken. And it's generally better to ban a strategy (stalling, extended ivulnerability) of a few characters than ban an entire stage.

You've basically just proved my point. It will be harder for certain characters to effectively deal with projectile characters on final destination, that's why the matchup is considered bad, and why they are at a disadvantage on final destination!

Again, match ups are part of any competitive game with more than one character; I have no issues with this. The question is whether it's overwhelming to the point of being broken. Are you saying that final destination is broken or makes characters broken?

Ike's super armor is still getting him damage you dingus, that's exactly what the other player wants.

And Ike is a heavy. Being heavy in this game is the closest equivalent of a character with high health in traditional fighting games. They have higher health (or in this case weight) specifically so they take more hits, a prolong a ko, and give them more chances to get in than characters with lower health(weight). Those characters also tend to be stronger to make up for their difficulty getting in.

Also, is there a reason to be rude? I havent insulted you in the least, yet you want to call me a dingus. Really? Is this what it's come to?

You just said it again, the point of projectiles are to bring up your damage so that you're at a disadvantage in close range combat, and you've just done it just so you can try to land a donkey punch.

And again you ignore his forward smash, weight, ko potential, and the range of his donkey punch.

Jiggs has the same disadvantage in melee, it's just less clear because rest kills at low %s.
FD is also literally the only "neutral" stage jigglypuff (and a lot of other characters) has a bad time with.

So what you're saying is that Jiggs high ko potential mitigated her difficulties on the stage.

Yeah, like all the balance changes that went through with brawl? except you know marth was basically untouched and kept himself up with falco on the tier list. Marth doesn't need changes, and the fundamentals to his moveset have already been revealed as unchanged.

Wasnt brawl made to be anti-competitive? And again you're focusing on a single aspect. Yes, Marth went through few changes, but look at the rest of the cast. Look at the universal changes they made to speed, weight, mobility. Saying things will be the same because of a single character is a bit dramatic.

Yes it did. Check Megaman's character section of the direct, he throws the saw blade immediately but has the option of holding as an item. It's also shown knocking back Luigi pretty far (Far enough for the trail behind)

Dude...the megabuster. His normal shots, not the blade.

Ban final destination? Bro have you even read my posts? Final destination should be a counterpick.
Having the community sort out the most balanced version and setting all the rest to counterpicks would be fine, as stage striking exists for a reason.
Japan quit final destination only ages ago, but their tier list still has the effects from that time.

"so why exactly are people try to find excuse to ban final dest?"
That was a general statement, but my apologies if that wasnt clear. In fact it's been a statement I've been making long before having this convo with you. Feel free to search the thread.
I do agree that it should be fine in stage striking, just not outright banned because of sharp/flat edges as some are saying.

Says the person outside the competitive community.

Well there's an assumption about who I am. I play mostly Brawl competitively, but I also play Melee at my locals though I'm only intermediate....and I play Ness.

Other games have basically neutral only stages, and there are still other fighting games like soul caliber that ban stages for the ledges.

I play soul calibur. Those stages were banned for ease of ringout potential (they were mostly small stages), but edges in general are fine.

I said before, No intent of making final destination anything but the counterpick it should be. Matchups can be bad for a character in general, but if picking a stage makes that matchup bad or worse, then that stage should not be a starter.

I partly disagree. All of the current starters (for melee/brawl) are already advantageous/disadvantageous for certain characters. Final Dest is no different. Just strike it if you dont want to play on it.

You're arguing that all characters have effective options to deal with projectiles, that the matchup isn't even. The point here is that the reason they are uneven is the stage, and pretty much every other stage with this effect has counterpick slapped on or is banned for over-centralizing.

I'm arguing that characters as a whole have enough options to deal with projectiles to avoid banning final destination....which is already a starter.

Smash should be about the character's battle, and that's why MK was only banned after years of playing, and not before the stages.

Please, dont get me started on that, it really shouldnt have taken that long. But I will agree on a base point: things need to be played before they're banned. I agreed with playing with metaknight to find out if he should be banned or not. A few people in the first few months, or even the first year imo, complaining is not enough to merit a ban. But that mess went on for about 5 years while otherwise viable stages were banned in the first few months and were never unbanned when metaknight was no longer an issue.

You do realize that there are people who main characters and not people who main stages?

I disagree. People strike/pick stages so that they'll have a higher chance of playing on a stage they trained better for or simply play better on; it's not very different from choosing a character or counter picking. And even if it wasnt similar, that is no excuse to be unprepared for a match up.

Every choice the competitive community makes has a chance to severely harm the reputation of the community as a whole

I agree with this. Though I can only remember a few moments where we gave it a legit good reputation. The other moments were pretty much Brawl and Melee player pissing at each other and people arguing about banning things before being given a chance or not banning things after being given a chance.

, and banning meta knight would just alienate the thousands of people who mained him.

True, but fewer people would be alienated if the decision was made sooner and they'd be less attached and would have more time to get over it. Difficult/hurtful decision sometimes need to be made, but only after a reasonable about of time and effort has gone into analyzing it. Characters being banned is nothing new, and I just dont see a reason smash should be excluded if the ban is reasonable. There are other characters in the game, hopefully they'll pick one.

You may say it's their fault for maining a broken character, but they aren't going to hear that. They'll just all get mad at the people who made the decisions and the TO's enforcing them.

I dont say it's they're fault, I just believe it's unfortunate for them. But they'll live and most likely get over it. If they cant get over a character in game then they probably have more important issues to deal with.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Muster]

If Falco's on the other side of the stage being defensive and you're on the other side with a reflector.....exactly how is falco hurting you?

A defensive player hurting you? You're approaching this the complete wrong way. The Falco player is going to get a lead and keep it, it's your job to go over and attack him.

I dont remember saying it was for damage. I remember saying that it's a way to deal with projectiles.

Projectiles will just be followed with more projectiles unless the user is damaged or you get close enough to deal damage. "dealing with projectiles" won't matter when the other opponent can just switch to another attack quickly after seeing that you're vulnerable from reflecting

I dunno what to say if you dont think defense or getting around projectiles doesnt require timing...

So does throwing out projectiles, and someone good at throwing out projectiles won't let you safely teleport.
Even if you teleport close to them, what next? you're wide open.

It's not the point I'm arguing at all. I'm saying that all the characters have options, not that that they share the same options. And again, all stages will favor certain characters. What matter is if the stage or a strategy allowed by the stage is broken. And it's generally better to ban a strategy (stalling, extended ivulnerability) of a few characters than ban an entire stage.

But final destination isn't being banned, it's being (theoretically) set to counterpick. The Base stages are neutral enough as they are, but FD is the outlier, the one stage that doesn't belong.
A certain form of FD being small enough will probably be the fairest, and that one will probably become the neutral.

Again, match ups are part of any competitive game with more than one character; I have no issues with this. The question is whether it's overwhelming to the point of being broken. Are you saying that final destination is broken or makes characters broken?

I'm saying that Final Destination tips the scales in a way that a counterpick stage does.

I like retouching, as not doing so will cause sight in the topic to be lost.

Final destination is a large and flat stage with no features.

The lack of platforms and the size of the stage gives an advantage to players that can quickly maneuver the stage and fire projectiles at less mobile characters.

And Ike is a heavy. Being heavy in this game is the closest equivalent of a character with high health in traditional fighting games. They have higher health (or in this case weight) specifically so they take more hits, a prolong a ko, and give them more chances to get in than characters with lower health(weight). Those characters also tend to be stronger to make up for their difficulty getting in.

A big part of smash is mobility, characters like Ike and Bowser sacrifice increase mobility for power. The problem is, in a large flat stage like Final Destination, their power is negated by the opponent's mobility, so hey're wittled away at and beaten. Like i said earlier, a certain size of final destination could be the balance so that less mobilized characters can have a better chance.

Also, is there a reason to be rude? I havent insulted you in the least, yet you want to call me a dingus. Really? Is this what it's come to?

Dingus is a word used to indicate forgetfulness. You're forgetting that Ike's ways to get closer are only getting him hit more.
i'm surprised that this hasn't come down to a thread of insults already. Dissenting opinion is not taken kindly to.

And again you ignore his forward smash, weight, ko potential, and the range of his donkey punch.

And you're forgetting how slow he is.
He can't get anywhere if he can't hit a fast opponent who's peppering him from afar.

So what you're saying is that Jiggs high ko potential mitigated her difficulties on the stage.

It trivialized them. Jiggs gets ko'd at ridiculously low percents anyway, but if she can get in and up throw/rest, then that's the stock. (usually for both of them, as the opponent will just respawn and punish)

Wasnt brawl made to be anti-competitive? And again you're focusing on a single aspect. Yes, Marth went through few changes, but look at the rest of the cast. Look at the universal changes they made to speed, weight, mobility. Saying things will be the same because of a single character is a bit dramatic.

I'm not saying things will be the same, i'm saying that single character will stay the same. That's all that's needed for Marth

Dude...the megabuster. His normal shots, not the blade.

Check again.
Also funny to see: as soon as fox pulls out his reflector, mega man just down tilts him off the stage, strangely relevant.

"so why exactly are people try to find excuse to ban final dest?"
That was a general statement, but my apologies if that wasnt clear. In fact it's been a statement I've been making long before having this convo with you. Feel free to search the thread.
I do agree that it should be fine in stage striking, just not outright banned because of sharp/flat edges as some are saying.

Like i've already said, FD all forms needs to be tested. One will stay and the rest will be counterpicks.

Well there's an assumption about who I am. I play mostly Brawl competitively, but I also play Melee at my locals though I'm only intermediate....and I play Ness.

Neato. What's your favorite kind of cereal?

I play soul calibur. Those stages were banned for ease of ringout potential (they were mostly small stages), but edges in general are fine.

this just proves my point.
Smash's stages matter a lot more than other fighters, because fighters can take advantage of their position in stages more in smash bros.

I partly disagree. All of the current starters (for melee/brawl) are already advantageous/disadvantageous for certain characters. Final Dest is no different. Just strike it if you dont want to play on it.

FD is the only one of those stages that polarizes the way it does, and it's because of platforms.

I'm arguing that characters as a whole have enough options to deal with projectiles to avoid banning final destination....which is already a starter.

And I'm arguing that FD as it is should not be a starter, because the options to deal with projectiles are not universally effective, and it polarizes the match from the beginning.

Please, dont get me started on that, it really shouldnt have taken that long. But I will agree on a base point: things need to be played before they're banned. I agreed with playing with metaknight to find out if he should be banned or not. A few people in the first few months, or even the first year imo, complaining is not enough to merit a ban. But that mess went on for about 5 years while otherwise viable stages were banned in the first few months and were never unbanned when metaknight was no longer an issue.

"unbanning" stages is really tricky business, as people tend to ignore the unban anyway. I personally think that if a certain stage is too polarized, it should be banned when the offending character is being used.
(Like if Megaman wrecked **** on pilotwings for some reason, it'd be banned only with megaman in play.)
This option can cause lots of confusion, though. So I could see why it's not been considered often.

Disney World's cruise to the park cannot be topped by the train to Disney Land

I agree, but Disneyland is the superior theme park.

I disagree. People strike/pick stages so that they'll have a higher chance of playing on a stage they trained better for or simply play better on; it's not very different from choosing a character or counter picking. And even if it wasnt similar, that is no excuse to be unprepared for a match up.

Training for a matchup or not, certain characters will do better against others on FD. An advantage should not be given to the other character just for picking FD on the first round, the advantage should be given to the losing player on the next round.

I agree with this. Though I can only remember a few moments where we gave it a legit good reputation. The other moments were pretty much Brawl and Melee player pissing at each other and people arguing about banning things before being given a chance or not banning things after being given a chance.

Brawl was treated too much like Melee. That was its downfall.

True, but fewer people would be alienated if the decision was made sooner and they'd be less attached and would have more time to get over it. Difficult/hurtful decision sometimes need to be made, but only after a reasonable about of time and effort has gone into analyzing it.

Metagames do change dramatically sometimes, people figured that a counter for metaknight would be found and he'd go down in the tier list, like how snake lost his 2nd place spot.
Could you imagine the outrage if they ban metaknight, only for someone to later find techniques that make the character much less OP?

I dont say it's they're fault, I just believe it's unfortunate for them. But they'll live and most likely get over it. If they cant get over a character in game then they probably have more important issues to deal with.

People have problems getting over things, it's fairly common to see this happening. Heck, people still can't get over other people wanting characters or mechanics in the next game.

 

[mimgrim]

Neato. What's your favorite kind of cereal?

Now now Mustard. No need to sound do condescending at him playing Brawl competitively more then Melee.

Kay?