Final Destination Forms: How Will We Deal With Them?

[Muster]

Now now Mustard. No need to sound do condescending at him playing Brawl competitively more then Melee.

Kay?

It was more a joke about the "I main Ness" part at the end.

I'd have asked for a favorite bed time story or something if i really wanted to down the condescending A-hole path

 

[Dravidian]

A defensive player hurting you? You're approaching this the complete wrong way. The Falco player is going to get a lead and keep it, it's your job to go over and attack him.

Maybe I misunderstood. In my head a defensive Falco is zoning you out with his projectiles and trying to rack up damage from a distance.

Projectiles will just be followed with more projectiles unless the user is damaged or you get close enough to deal damage. "dealing with projectiles" won't matter when the other opponent can just switch to another attack quickly after seeing that you're vulnerable from reflecting

I partly agree. Again, timing and spacing. If you reflect at a punishable range that's poor timing and spacing.

So does throwing out projectiles, and someone good at throwing out projectiles won't let you safely teleport.
Even if you teleport close to them, what next? you're wide open.

I some what agree. By no means am I saying that he's getting in for free.

But final destination isn't being banned, it's being (theoretically) set to counterpick. The Base stages are neutral enough as they are, but FD is the outlier, the one stage that doesn't belong.
A certain form of FD being small enough will probably be the fairest, and that one will probably become the neutral.

There's been talk of banning it. It wasn't you but there's been talk of banning them because of unfair advantage due to the edges. Having it as a counter pick stage is a decent middleground, but I question whether it's necessary at all. I do agree whole heartedly that a shorter Final Dest would be best.

I'm saying that Final Destination tips the scales in a way that a counterpick stage does.

I can see that argument. As long as it's not banned I'm cool with that.

I like retouching, as not doing so will cause sight in the topic to be lost.

Final destination is a large and flat stage with no features.

The lack of platforms and the size of the stage gives an advantage to players that can quickly maneuver the stage and fire projectiles at less mobile characters.

See, this I understand. I agree that there's favor for certain characters. I just dont think it's bad enough to ban. A counter pick like you stated earlier is fine.

A big part of smash is mobility, characters like Ike and Bowser sacrifice increase mobility for power. The problem is, in a large flat stage like Final Destination, their power is negated by the opponent's mobility, so hey're wittled away at and beaten. Like i said earlier, a certain size of final destination could be the balance so that less mobilized characters can have a better chance.

I agree with this. There is a trade off and Bowser will have some difficulty. Hopefully, his moves are tweaked to make certain match ups better. Maybe buff his Fire range/durability or down smash to reflect. But I'll save that conversation for the future balance threads

Dingus is a word used to indicate forgetfulness.

I'm actually not familiar with that usage of the word, but alright.

You're forgetting that Ike's ways to get closer are only getting him hit more.

I didnt forget. Some characters are better built to take hits. Look at Zangeif (street fighter). He only needs to get in a few times to finish someone. The same applies to Ike with his tilt loops.

i'm surprised that this hasn't come down to a thread of insults already. Dissenting opinion is not taken kindly to.

It has bee surprisingly civil

And you're forgetting how slow he is.
He can't get anywhere if he can't hit a fast opponent who's peppering him from afar.

I didnt forget. I've seen some good Ikes. They do have some difficulty getting in on some zoners. This is true. But it is done.

It trivialized them. Jiggs gets ko'd at ridiculously low percents anyway, but if she can get in and up throw/rest, then that's the stock. (usually for both of them, as the opponent will just respawn and punish)

That is also true lol. But the match usually ends up pretty even.

I'm not saying things will be the same, i'm saying that single character will stay the same. That's all that's needed for Marth

I dunno. I def think he'll still be strong, but I believe the tiers will be much denser and that his strength wont be as potent. Call me an optimist

Check again.
Also funny to see: as soon as fox pulls out his reflector, mega man just down tilts him off the stage, strangely relevant.

I was looking at 8:17 . Perhaps DK wasnt stunned by Megaman's buster. Maybe his up B neutralizes certain projectiles or he just has armor. You could very well be right about that.
Fox still did it at a crappy range though =P

Like i've already said, FD all forms needs to be tested. One will stay and the rest will be counterpicks.

I agree. That's all I really want.

Neato. What's your favorite kind of cereal?

Cinnamon Toast Crunch

this just proves my point.
Smash's stages matter a lot more than other fighters, because fighters can take advantage of their position in stages more in smash bros.

I never argued against that. In fact I agree with you here. I'm simply dont believe that the advantage merits a ban, especially without testing. I guess there was a miscommunication somewhere between us.

FD is the only one of those stages that polarizes the way it does, and it's because of platforms.
And I'm arguing that FD as it is should not be a starter, because the options to deal with projectiles are not universally effective, and it polarizes the match from the beginning.

eh...I dunno dude. Maybe I'm used to it, but while I've felt I've been occasionally disadvantaged on that stage, I've never felt overwhelmed or that the disadvantage. Maybe I'll feel it once I level up my game, but for now I'm just not seeing it.

"unbanning" stages is really tricky business, as people tend to ignore the unban anyway. I personally think that if a certain stage is too polarized, it should be banned when the offending character is being used.
(Like if Megaman wrecked **** on pilotwings for some reason, it'd be banned only with megaman in play.)
This option can cause lots of confusion, though. So I could see why it's not been considered often.

I agree. Relative bans would make thing the most fair imo, but they are indeed difficult to maintain.

I agree, but Disneyland is the superior theme park.

I've never been ;_;

Training for a matchup or not, certain characters will do better against others on FD. An advantage should not be given to the other character just for picking FD on the first round, the advantage should be given to the losing player on the next round.

I agree with the concept, just not that FD gives significant advantage. Perhaps I'm just not seeing it yet.

Brawl was treated too much like Melee. That was its downfall.

Unfortunately similar things happen whenever a new iteration of a game comes out. Look at 3rd Strike. It wasnt received very well at first (almost all classic characters were gone and the battle system was changed significantly), but was loved later and became a classic.

Metagames do change dramatically sometimes, people figured that a counter for metaknight would be found and he'd go down in the tier list, like how snake lost his 2nd place spot.
Could you imagine the outrage if they ban metaknight, only for someone to later find techniques that make the character much less OP?

Oh, I agree with that. I just think they should have given it more serious thought after the 3rd or 4th year...

People have problems getting over things, it's fairly common to see this happening. Heck, people still can't get over other people wanting characters or mechanics in the next game.

So true. Even I question certain tech, but that's because I studied user experience, and even then, with the exception of one technique, I'd just modify those techniques, not remove them completely.

 

[mimgrim]

It was more a joke about the "I main Ness" part at the end.

I'd have asked for a favorite bed time story or something if i really wanted to down the condescending A-hole path

Yet you bolded the Brawl part. Why must you confuse me like that Colonel Mustard. D:

 

[Muster]

Maybe I misunderstood. In my head a defensive Falco is zoning you out with his projectiles and trying to rack up damage from a distance.

There are multiple ways a falco can be defensive. He may gain a lead and camp out the match, or he could possibly just be zoning like you said.

I partly agree. Again, timing and spacing. If you reflect at a punishable range that's poor timing and spacing.

Of course, it's ultimately a lot more practical to avoid projectiles on say, battlefield Or big blue.

There's been talk of banning it. It wasn't you but there's been talk of banning them because of unfair advantage due to the edges. Having it as a counter pick stage is a decent middleground, but I question whether it's necessary at all. I do agree whole heartedly that a shorter Final Dest would be best.

If there's a gigantic variation of FD, i could see it banned. Current FD should be nowhere close to that line.

See, this I understand. I agree that there's favor for certain characters. I just dont think it's bad enough to ban. A counter pick like you stated earlier is fine.

That's good, this is good.

I'm actually not familiar with that usage of the word, but alright.

It's probably a locational thing, i'm sorry if you misunderstood

I didnt forget. Some characters are better built to take hits. Look at Zangeif (street fighter). He only needs to get in a few times to finish someone. The same applies to Ike with his tilt loops.

Sadly, this did not translate well in earlier games. Let's see if that will be better this time around.
(So little mac is like Akuma? massive damage but low health)


oops, deleted this quote. I thought it was donkey kong we were talking about?
I've only ever seen a donkey kong approach with Bairs from up close on smashville, nothing from FD

That is also true lol. But the match usually ends up pretty even.

It's really just a screwup on the puff's side that ends with a loss, but it's dang hard to screw up those rest combos when practiced. (Or that stupid bair)

I dunno. I def think he'll still be strong, but I believe the tiers will be much denser and that his strength wont be as potent. Call me an optimist

Sakurai really only went into buffs to characters in brawl's time, (except jiggs) I don't want to let down my guard.
Worst case scenario balance patches will help.

I was looking at 8:17 . Perhaps DK wasnt stunned by Megaman's buster. Maybe his up B neutralizes certain projectiles or he just has armor. You could very well be right about that.

I guess you've discovered more of a buff to DK then. That'll help in get in on projectile characters for sure.

Cinnamon Toast Crunch

Cool, that's my favorite as well!

I never argued against that. In fact I agree with you here. I'm simply dont believe that the advantage merits a ban, especially without testing. I guess there was a miscommunication somewhere between us.

these are not uncommon. Tone and intent are not easily conveyed or consistently interpreted through text.

eh...I dunno dude. Maybe I'm used to it, but while I've felt I've been occasionally disadvantaged on that stage, I've never felt overwhelmed or that the disadvantage. Maybe I'll feel it once I level up my game, but for now I'm just not seeing it.

It really depends on the character and the matchup. On /r/smashbros, people were discussing the worst matchups, and most of them were ganondorf/bowser vs someone on FD, with some people saying they were 100/0 against a semi competent player. (Ice climbers and Sheik i think)

I agree. Relative bans would make thing the most fair imo, but they are indeed difficult to maintain.

I heard a "pending" stages idea in another forum, maybe that would be better.
(Put stages in pending until legal, or after a ban is made for a while.)

I've never been ;_;

That is a shame.
You must go, Disneyland beckons to you

I agree with the concept, just not that FD gives significant advantage. Perhaps I'm just not seeing it yet.

It ultimately is a matter of whether or not the matchups can be proven to be changed too much on the stage.
It'd require insane amounts of testing i'd imagine.

Unfortunately similar things happen whenever a new iteration of a game comes out. Look at 3rd Strike. It wasnt received very well at first (almost all classic characters were gone and the battle system was changed significantly), but was loved later and became a classic.

I'm just hoping that people will be wiser to sm4sh.

Oh, I agree with that. I just think they should have given it more serious thought after the 3rd or 4th year...

By then, there were lots of mains for Metaknight, and the BR was probably neck deep in trying to explain how the game can be competitively viable to make many changes. Personally, i blame whoever messed up and hit 9999 for like half of MK's priority moves.
So true.

Even I question certain tech, but that's because I studied user experience, and even then, with the exception of one technique, I'd just modify those techniques, not remove them completely.

I'm assuming this tech is L cancelling?
I can see why, the only time L cancelling is bad is when i trade and then can't tech the ground. (maybe that's just me being bad, though.)

Yet you bolded the Brawl part. Why must you confuse me like that Colonel Mustard. D:

Oops. That was leftover from something i wanted to say earlier, something about Brawl's FD matchups i think?

 

[mimgrim]

FYI MK was discussed seriously to get banned for Brawl, just doing some searching would get you to find the stuff. A community poll was even formed to vote to ban him or not, by the BBR.

Guess what the majority voted for him to be banned. However TOs refused to ban him from their tournaments because they didn't want to lose players from their tournaments. Just do some digging up and it's amazing what you find.

 

[D-idara]

I don't get people's thing with cinnamon cereals, I personally find the taste too stingy on the tastebuds, I prefer honey cereal.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Sorry for my rambling. My point is that smash has always been about playing in an arena that is, essentially a box. Most of these stages have platforms in which you can jump from, create combos, etc. The problem is that this new FD feature for most stages can actually hurt competitive play.

1.) This ability to change stages to FD mode gives Sakurai a reason to make more stages become hazardous or have boss battles, etc. Now that we have FD for every stage, he can say "They have no reason to complain. I gave them what they wanted." The problem is, FD is pretty much the ONLY Smash stage with absolutely no platforms. It's a stage. Among many others we play on that have platforms. This mode validates his addition of stage hazards, and "casual stages" so to speak.

2.) Counter picking is pretty useless or not as effective because now that every stage has an FD form, it's much easier to get the stage you want. If I'm playing Falco vs Bowser for example, FD is pretty ideal as i can spam lasers. Having every stage like this tremendously helps some characters. This brings me to point 3.

3.) Characters that are bad in the air but good on the ground (Little Mac, etc), characters that have really good projectiles(Falco, etc) and characters that have good chain grabs (Ice climbers, etc) are going to have an easy time as pretty much every stage in FD form is in their favor.

Basically i'm arguing that the ability to change stages to FD format can be detrimental to competitive play. Maybe I'm wrong however. Maybe it can help it. All we can do now is speculate.

 

[---]

Alright, end with the cereal talk.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Alright, end with the cereal talk.

Lol the derails you see in a tread huh?