Data FINAL: Confirmed 1.1.0 Patch Notes

[TheBlueBlur]

Another unnecesary insane nerf to sonic... Brawl Sonic 2.0
Welcome to be a mid tier again

 

[Smog Frog]

god dammit its not that bad. it still kills decently early, right? it still has decent shield pushback and a disjoint, right? you lot are blowing this nerf WAYYY out of proportion.

 

[Syndralix]

So one itty bitty nerf to Fsmash, eh? I can live with that. It's still his best kill option, and he's got others anyway.

I was playing around in training mode a little bit, and I think Sonic feels exactly the way he did pre-patch. Reading this thread beforehand probably helped iron out the placebos before they could hit me. =P

 

[Luig]

The placebos are strong with this one.

EDIT: GLOBAL CHANGE FOUND BY DANTARION.
@ Camalange Everybody's sidestep, airdodge(I think?) and Rolls have 1 frame less invincibility.

 

[Damandatwin]

Nerfing rolls? Praise be to Sakurai.

 

[UberMadman]

Well that's it, it has been fun guys but I am officially done with Smash 4. I plan to get into melee / pm though, so at least I have that left to look forward to.

Considering that as it turns out ONLY Sonic's F-Smash was nerfed, I hope you're not seriously considering dropping an entire game. I agree that the nerfs suck, but holy cow, he barely changed at all this patch, it's not worth getting that upset over imo.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

This thread reminds of the one that was made when Sheik got her first nerfs. Too much drama, tears and pointless threats of "abandoning" Smash 4. And yet, she is still a top tier character. It just shows how too many people waste their time on petty whining.

 

[Crabman]

Considering that as it turns out ONLY Sonic's F-Smash was nerfed, I hope you're not seriously considering dropping an entire game. I agree that the nerfs suck, but holy cow, he barely changed at all this patch, it's not worth getting that upset over imo.

It's a matter of principle, almost every character got buffed this patch, including ness and even rosalina went untouched. Every patch so far Sonic has gotten a little worse, why should I think next patch will be any different?

 

[Login_Sinker]

We're still upper high tier, and still retain our good match ups with most of the cast. Calm down.

 

[Camalange]

I can't wait for the Spin Dash nerfs next patch. (￣ー￣)

That was the Mewtwo patch...

The Fox mains like myself are just as upset as you guys.

You guys got shine spikes and jab still combos into Usmash... What?

We got nothing in return.

The only BUFFS Sonic has gotten the entirety of this game's release are mostly CORRECTIONS. Not actual buffs.

> Removing Cypher Grabbing
> HA doesn't lock onto things that literally aim to kill us
> Dair IASA buff (yay?)

Now that the wii u is hackable I'm really hoping that a dev team will make a pm version of this game, I've decided that's the only way I'll ever be able to enjoy it

I wish I could infract this.

EDIT: GLOBAL CHANGE FOUND BY DANTARION.
@ Camalange Everybody's sidestep, airdodge(I think?) and Rolls have 1 frame less invincibility.

Can you please cite where you found this claim?

Also, the datamine is excellent for that type of data. However, to name an example, the datamine can't catch things like the improved IASA frames on Dair. Don't get comfortable yet. There's still more to explore.




Alright, after taking the time to merely lurk and absorb (and not having a lot of time or internet connection) I'm going to make my first post here. Oh boy...

A lot of you are missing the principle at hand.

"It's just a 4% KO nerf, what's the big deal?"

Um.

Your line of thinking is incredibly narrow if that's the only angle you're viewing this from.

Many other characters, including top tiers, got straight up buffs, or got a check in balances if something was nerfed. What did Sonic get? Nothing. There was no trade. We're taking another hit to our weakest area, which is getting KOs.

This will only promote defensive gameplay aka the time-outs people love so much from players like Manny.

Meanwhile, characters like Luigi are still getting buffed... How long do you think it will take for people to realize Sonic isn't worth the trouble? It's not a matter of "it's just one small nerf" it's a series of nerfs that we've been getting since release in addition to other strong characters maintaining their position.

Again, Manny was the only one to almost break top 8 at EVO, and even then he fell short. Being boo'd all the way. Meanwhile, players like 6WX and Joe struggled to reach or fall just short of top 32. This is the second major now for Manny to outplace both of them.

Do you think this is a coincidence?

Sure, it may just be having off days, or not properly adapting to nerfs, but do you honestly believe this doesn't speak to the problem?

How much longer do you think Sonic can continue on this trajectory? How many Sonics are going to have to promote a playstyle more akin to our Brawl days to keep up with characters who get free kills out of throws?

It's truly disgusting how they go about balancing this game sometimes. Is Sonic garbage? No. But him being any good was clearly a mistake on the development team's part, and they're not taking actual measurements to change Sonic in a healthier way. They are instead choosing the most mind-numbingly simple answers and only worsening our game.

Stop thinking so linearly.

Stop thinking "Sonic is still top/high tier so it's fine." You're missing the point. Sure, Sonic is still overall better than he was in Brawl, but how much does that matter in the grand scheme?

Sonic will never go away, simply because of how huge his fanbase is. To quote Espy...

Rofl. It's Sonic the ****ing hedgehog. He isn't going anywhere.

Despite the hate, think about how popular Sonic was in Brawl still. Through hardwork and dedication alone, we developed his meta game far beyond anyone could've imagined. We went from being perceived as Ganon tier to a Mid Tier character... Not many characters in any Smash game can make these kind of claims.

Now, it's like a cruel practical joke where for some reason everyone thinks Sonic is top 5 no matter how often he gets targeted with nerfs and that it's A-OK.

If you want to give up, do it. I don't care. I play Sonic for Sonic and always have. Frankly, I hope the true Sonic mains stick around because I can't deal with stroking all these fake hedgehog egos all the time.

 

[Luig]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin.txt

Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04B][4] from 18 to 17
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04C][4] from 17 to 16
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04D][4] from 17 to 16
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[07B][2] from 50 to 43

07B - ThrowLw - D72C4C6A

my dumps now have param changes, will try to get the animation names in them, but endlag changes are now available online

The other 3 are things I want tested though.
4B-4D are EscapeN EscapeF, EscapeB

now, sub[XXX][2] changes are clearly IASA, im not sure what these are. Maybe total duration? Have these rolls gotten one frame better?

In 1.0.9, the first vulnerable frames of Greninja's spotdodge, forward roll and backward roll are 18, 17 and 17 respectively (not counting the initial 1-3 frame vulnerability of course). These numbers match up with the numbers here.

So Greninja's dodges probably have 1 frame less invincibility. What's not clear is whether they've just changed the last frame of invincibility to make it vulnerable, or whether they've reduced the total duration of the dodges by 1 frame. I would guess the former, sadly, making this a nerf to Greninja's dodges. Which makes no sense, since they were average to below average already.

EDIT: If this was a universal change it means that spotdodges and rolls have been made slightly less obnoxious worse on a cast-wide basis.

Every character has the same line of code saying the invincibility reduced by one frame.

 

[Camalange]

Every character has the same line of code saying the invincibility reduced by one frame.

Thank you.

I will wait until it's proven universal to make any update, though.

 

[KyroChao]

Im very disappointed sonic was nerfed, and as someone who tries to play aggressively as sonic, this only makes things harder, as two of his smash attacks have now been nerfed.

I'll be a sonic main through and through, but im really disappointed we continue to get nerfs while other high tiers are getting buffs and or untouched STILL. We're not even placing as good in tourney's as them, where is nintendo being told to make these changes?

 

[Luig]

Japan thinks Sanic is top 3. They also think Weegee sucks.

Nuff' said.

 

[Rhus]

You guys got shine spikes and jab still combos into Usmash... What?

We got nothing in return.

Just to clarify, I said that before we knew much about Fox's changes to his Jab aside from how it was used before being completely invalidated. Additionally, I have super slow internet so I didn't even play the patch until later that night, I assumed people were being genuine when they said all Jab follow ups were gone (which later turned out to be incorrect).

Second of all, jab combo'd into Usmash before regardless of where it hit. Fox's new jab requires you to hit with the tip of his first jab to do any sort of follow up, and it doesn't combo into Usmash very reliably and only really works at strict percentages.

Thirdly, though this isn't a bad thing, Fox's jab game is likely going to revolve around footstools now. This isn't bad in any case because he gets great stuff off of them, but it means us Fox mains have to scrap completely what we knew and what we did out of a jab (some of it wasn't very easy) and completely overhaul our jab game. I don't think this is a bad thing at all, it's more of a "Oh I can't do that thing I practised for hours doing anymore. Okay." I'm actually looking forward to learning some new footstool things, but right now my Fox game is hurting because I don't have the time to be practicing it right now. It's just disappointing at the moment but the Fox community will likely come through it stronger than before.

Shine...still pretty meh but now it's an option which is great. I'm overall very happy about this change (I didn't really know about this before either).

Also, I personally can't stand fighting Sonic but I still feel bad for your community when you guys keep getting nerfed because you guys aren't the OP ones. At least this time it's nothing major, but you are right in addressing that it's the principle not the nerf itself. Either way, I hope you guys aren't touched in the future because Sonic is fine right now.

I'm still trying to comprehend how little was done about Sheik, Luigi getting a massive UpB buff and why Rosalina hasn't been touched. It doesn't make much sense when Sonic receives a direct nerf.

(I'm holding judgement on Fox's changes for now, good things may come from the jab but only time will tell as the 20XX community devises ways of using it)

I appreciate your enthusiasm towards your character though. Like you, I main Fox for Fox, and no matter his changes I will still main him.

 

[Syndralix]

Japan thinks Sanic is top 3. They also think Weegee sucks.

Nuff' said.

Yeah, last I heard the Japanese fanbase's opinion takes priority when Sakurai and his team are discussing inclusions and balance changes. That's the main reason Dark Pit is a thing.

So either we let them steamroll us with whatever changes they want to bring to Sonic, or we speak up loud enough to be heard from across the Pacific ocean. OR...we adapt. But at the rate we're going, I don't know if just adapting is going to be enough.

 

[Luig]

All in favor of speaking up say aye.

 

[W.A.C.]

Again, Manny was the only one to almost break top 8 at EVO, and even then he fell short. Being boo'd all the way. Meanwhile, players like 6WX and Joe struggled to reach or fall just short of top 32. This is the second major now for Manny to outplace both of them.

Do you think this is a coincidence?

Sure, it may just be having off days, or not properly adapting to nerfs, but do you honestly believe this doesn't speak to the problem?

Manny is flat out a better Sonic player than Joe. As for 6WX, I talked to him earlier this week and he practiced Ryu more than Sonic before EVO, which is unfortunate as Ryu wasn't legal at EVO. 6WX is still an exceptional Sonic player regardless of the nerfs.

 

[bc1910]

I just stopped by because my post got quoted here and I ended up reading the whole thing.

The amount of whining in this thread is unreal un-****ing-believable.

Let me start by saying, I do not hate Sonic. I have learnt to deal with him to a point where I am satisfied with the MU. I even find him fun to fight at times. Yes, I'm sure I'd still get trashed by a top campy Sonic like Manny, but I've never played one. So I am not speaking from "salt" in that respect.

Also, I don't wish to alienate the lot of you with this post, I really don't. Sorry in advance to anyone who gets offended! But after reading some of the comments here I just have to speak up.

Sonic is a top tier character. He was barely touched. Over time, he has had several small nerfs + tweaks, just like Sheik and other characters of his caliber like Rosalina.

Diddy was better than Sonic admittedly, but he got hit WAY harder by two patches in a row.

Greninja was never better than Sonic, he was never even a top 5 1v1 character, and he got trashed by a patch to the point of being unviable. It's taken 8 months for the devs to realise that he needs good Shurikens to compete.

So when I see this behaviour from Sonic mains, I kind of look on in disbelief. Sonic's kill power has been hit a couple of times. So what. It has not stopped him competing (the Bthrow nerf was way more significant than the Fsmash nerf). It will not stop him from competing. Unlike Diddy and Greninja, his core gameplan has not changed. Sonic is still a viable character. Why are you complaining that Sonic may not be "as top tier as before"? Are you serious? As long as your character is viable, what right does anyone really have to complain on this scale?

Nerfs suck. I get it. Trust me, as a Greninja main I get that better than ANYONE, including Diddy mains. But you are all too fixated on Sonic getting "repeatedly nerfed". I know that in itself is annoying, but his balance changes have constantly been small, and they are not out of keeping with other characters of his strength. Other characters close to his strength have even been nerfed SO much harder. Sonic is not the main problem character of this game, I agree, but he isn't getting nerfed as if he is. He has not had the Diddy treatment.

@ Cerealisyummy5 gets it. Respect to you my friend. I hope life is treating you well!

And I do get what @ Camalange is saying. They are nerfing the wrong things at this point, they aren't doing anything to fix the real problem which is campy Sonic. Ideally, that strategy would be nerfed and Sonic's kill power would be left alone. I do understand your frustration there. But though it might not be completely for reasons you like, the fact remains, Sonic is more than viable. This level of complaining is still unwarranted.

As for the rest of you, I know you might want to flame me to hell and back. Please bear in mind that I honestly don't wish to aggravate or alienate you. But you need a serious reality check.

 

[Rucent]

Thank you so much for saying this.

 

[Cerealisyummy5]

@ bc1910 Woah. I just ran into a legend haha. What's up BC. Life's been alright, I see you picked up Greninja. And thank you for agreeing with me. There are so many characters that are worse than Sonic and people are overreacting to a couple of tweaks. Sonic is still solid high tier. He's still safe, racks up % and can STILL kill fine. And most likely still shuts down certain characters.

 

[UberMadman]

I'm so conflicted right now because, on the one hand, I'm angry at the people who continually hate on Sonic and Sonic players to the point where a balanced character continually gets nerfed to the point where he's becoming MORE of a thing they hate, not less.

On the other hand, I'm angry at my fellow Sonic players for complaining so much when the majority of the nerfs have been relatively minor and have not affected his tiering status much if at all. Like @ bc1910 said, there have been characters like Diddy and Greninja that have been hit WAAAY harder by the nerf wagon than we ever have. Diddy has has to change up his playstyle significantly just to stay in the running, and meanwhile poor Greninja has had to rely on highly technical footstool combos to compete at high level up to this point. Not to mention the fact that there are characters much worse than Sonic, such as Samus or Bowser Jr., who have been almost entirely ignored by balance patches. (Jr. even got a couple of nerfs!) And after all that, here we are playing the same high tier character, and ******** about every minor injustice that comes our way.

Believe me, I know that the communal mindset around Sonic is terrible, but sitting around and complaining just makes US look bad, and adds more fuel to their fire. If you want the mindset to change, be an active communicator of the flaws of your character. Every time someone talks about how annoying Sonic's ball attacks are, tell them that Sonic has as many of them as Mewtwo has tail attacks, and inform them on the differences. Whenever someone complains of how overpowered Spindash is, let them know how to grab Sonic out of it. Sakurai has already stated in an interview that community impressions are a part of deciding buffs and nerfs, so if you think that Sonic nerfs are unjustified at this stage of the meta, combat the ignorance, don't contrribute to it.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

You guys say "top tier" like it means anything to the worst top tier ever.

BTW, calling it: Bair nerf in the next balance patch.

 

[UberMadman]

You guys say "top tier" like it means anything to the worst top tier ever.

BTW, calling it: Bair nerf in the next balance patch.

In a game where there are over 50 characters, being in the top 8 of them DOES mean something, whether you like it or not.

Sonic is a really good character in this game. Really, really good. He still is, even after all the balance patches. Denying this fact will get you nowhere.

On the other hand, he's also a perfectly balanced character, and sitting around complaining about nerfs THAT HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET isn't doing anyone any good, least of all us.

Greninja and Diddy both got buffed this patch. Wait and see what the future has in store. In the meantime, isn't it much better to be a good player and strong communicator than allowing yourself to be the thing your haters make you out to be?

 

[Luig]

Actually, I do agree with Uber, and complaining about nerfs that haven't happened yet is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Nah, not in his position. While Sonic clearly has positive MUs against the majority of the cast, he definitely struggles against ALL of the top tiers and a handful high tiers.

This results in Sonic being hated by the majority of players while not really being able to battle to the top as much as the other top tiers.

Haters gonna hate. It's pretty much because it is Sonic and this is a Nintendo game. That's just how it is and I can't be bothered trying to talk sense into that kind of people anymore.

 

[Espy Rose]

K.

 

[Spitfire16]

You guys say "top tier" like it means anything to the worst top tier ever.

BTW, calling it: Bair nerf in the next balance patch.

I swear to god...if they do that lol but it won't matter to me, still gonna use him as I did in Brawl when everybody saw him as horrible, I never saw him as a bad character but now we living the high life in the high tiers :3

 

[Espy Rose]

I definitely agree with bc, but there's a small lot of us that started with Sonic in Brawl. We may not be new Greninja, but seeing him slowly creep inch by inch closer to his Brawl status is frustrating.

None of us vets want to really go back to that.

I'm not whining or anything, I'll deal, but it's just really annoying in a game where people like DK and Rosa can ko people at sub 70%, and everyone is too busy ******** about a move that loses to grabs and clanks with jabs.

 

[W.A.C.]

And I do get what @ Camalange is saying. They are nerfing the wrong things at this point, they aren't doing anything to fix the real problem which is campy Sonic. Ideally, that strategy would be nerfed and Sonic's kill power would be left alone. I do understand your frustration there. But though it might not be completely for reasons you like, the fact remains, Sonic is more than viable. This level of complaining is still unwarranted.

How on earth could they nerf "campy Sonic"? Ruin his spindash? o_O I will say that while I disagree with the latest nerf Sonic received, it's true that how Sonic is played didn't change much outside of the fact his back throw is nowhere near as good as it used to be and his forward smash is more punishable. How I have to play Diddy Kong in 1.10 is very different from 1.0.4. He practically feels like a different iteration of the character at this point thanks to all 18 nerfs he has received in the entire lifespan of this game. 1.0.6 Diddy was fine, but dear god were future nerfs unnecessary. At least he received some buffs in the latest balance patch, such as fixing his goddamn up smash which used to frequently whiff.

 

[Luig]

Maybe we need nintendo to say, "HEY, YOU CAN GRAB SONIC OUT OF IT!" Maybe they'd stop complaining.

 

[KyroChao]

I agree with @ bc1910 but Espy put it best. Us veteran sonics do not want the options this game gave us to suddenly be taken away. Sonic's problem in brawl was lack of kill power. So far almost all of our nerfs have been to just that, our upsmash is not nearly as reliable, and now we need a little more time on fsmash. While i agree that all this complaining is excessive, i understand where it comes from.

 

[UberMadman]

Sorry if I sort of derailed this thread by the way. And as a Sonic main in Brawl myself, don't worry, I entirely sympathize with people who don't want Sonic to go back down that road. Neither do I. Just keep in mind that at this point in time, we're not Brawl Sonic, we're still Sm4sh Sonic.

 

[RGXZERO]

I just wish we could actually use the back throw without the need of ridiculous damage percentages for it to be viable. : /

 

[Luig]

Now I actually kill more with utilt and uthrow than bthrow.

 

[ProjectTwin]

Aww , poor Sonic ..

I don't care about any of his nerfs or player hate. I'm going to still main Sonic cause I love that character >.< But I still feel for the competitive players who main Sonic..

Off topic question. But i'd love to be a competitive smasher. Can anyone re-direct me to the appropriate information for Sonic?

 

[hypersonicJD]

Maybe change Sonic to Project M Sonic and people will stop complaining... Right...? I mean the Sonic nerfs haven't actually been by making Sonic less strong. It has been thanks for the anti-sonic complains. Everybody hates Sonic and since Nintendo saw that maybe they want to make him less reliable and make Sonic mains leave Sonic and go for other characters. Maybe Nintendo could change Sonic to Project M Sonic with Sonic eagle and one of his spin dash attacks removed. But that would be pretty stupid. I seriously can't understand why people hate Sonic so much. Yeah he is campy and sometimes boring but that isn't an excuse to hate him. Jigglypuff is even campier than Sonic thanks to her air speed, Rosalina is just worse too. Even Sheik can be campy.

 

[Espy Rose]

PM Sonic is stupid.
There should be a rule against bringing up that game in here.

 

[Guerao]

Nair 12% -> 11%
Confirmed?

 

[Damandatwin]

Doubt it, that would have been picked up in Dantarion's dump.