Feelings on Transformation?

[behemoth]

Hey all you Princess lovers!

I'm a melee Sheik main who tried to use Zelda at every opportunity. Despite the recent revelation about the escapability of her smashes, I would still like to be able to work her into my strategy, since it seems the dev team decided neither would be able to wholly stand on their own.

Are you guys working on any strategies to get the ninja into your playing lines? I personally would like to have an optional strat or two just to be able to switch between the queen of combos and her heavy-hitting counterpart.

So, anyone else trying to work this in successfully?

Lemme know!

~Behemoth

 

[Wildfire393]

Hey all you Princess lovers!

I'm a melee Sheik main who tried to use Zelda at every opportunity. Despite the recent revelation about the escapability of her smashes, I would still like to be able to work her into my strategy, since it seems the dev team decided neither would be able to wholly stand on their own.

Are you guys working on any strategies to get the ninja into your playing lines? I personally would like to have an optional strat or two just to be able to switch between the queen of combos and her heavy-hitting counterpart.

So, anyone else trying to work this in successfully?

Lemme know!

~Behemoth

The transformation is QUITE laggy. About the only time you could get a successful transformation in without getting punished for it is if you star-kill the opponent. That, or you're constantly passing up on edgeguards in order to swap back and forth.

I'd suggest just playing Zelda. Sheik got some major ner***e (just about all of her kill moves no longer kill under 150%, and even then you need a good placement, like slapping them at the edge of the stage). And Zelda got some even more major buf***e.

 

[Drake3]

I doubt I'll be trying to incorporate Transform at all. I'm personally of the opinion that they decided to drop the old formula from last game and just try and separate them into whole characters this time. Sheik got nerfed, but she's still playable. You just can't play her like you used to play her in Melee.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

As cool as it would be to use both of them succesfully together, I don´t think that it´s going to happen for me. It´s not the laggy transformation or anything like that preventing me from doing so, but rather the fact that I never actually got the real connection to Sheik in melee. She just didn´t fit my playstyle. It´s unforunate, but can´t be helped.
But there is always the change that it´ll change in brawl, since characters have changed.

But in general I agree with Drake3 that in brawl Zelda and Sheik seem to be meant to be more like two different characters than in melee. Maybe Sakurai noticed that most of the players used only other one of the two anyway?

 

[behemoth]

Sheik is certainly still playable, she's going to be my main (Zelda alt). I just wish there was a way to bring the two together, as I love playing as both of them, and as Rocky puts it, "[they] fill gaps. You know, [Sheik] got gaps, [Zelda] got gaps, together they fill gaps."

Wow. A Rocky I reference. Never in my years of internetting did I ever think...

 

[Wildfire393]

Sheik is certainly still playable, she's going to be my main (Zelda alt). I just wish there was a way to bring the two together, as I love playing as both of them, and as Rocky puts it, "[they] fill gaps. You know, [Sheik] got gaps, [Zelda] got gaps, together they fill gaps."

Wow. A Rocky I reference. Never in my years of internetting did I ever think...

Sheik-Zelda would easily be the top of the god-tier if the transform wasn't so easily punishable. Sheik actually looks to have MORE juggling potential, especially with tilts (my favorite). And Zelda has even more kill potential than in Melee. Together, they would form the perfect character. Unfortunately, transform is this big wedge between them, keeping them apart.

 

[Naybewon]

Transforming in the air after smashing an opponent away (even if it wasn't an extremely deadly smash) seems to work for me just fine.

Anyway, Zelda so far seems to be a complete character who really doesn't need Sheik much if at all. When I'm playing her, I RARELY transform into Sheik...In all honesty I think they left the transformation in there just for fun and created two entirely separate characters (making the transformation longer certainly doesn't help the synergy either). Additionally, it's much harder to do any sort of combo's in this game and that seems (for me) to account for the "escapability" of Zelda's attack chains. Her moves are so awesomely powerful, though, that you can still hunt someone down even if they escape. ^_^

I used to love Sheik in Melee, but not so much in Brawl. >_> She doesn't suck or anything, she's juuust...not the same and I can't handle it. Lol

 

[ZeldaSheik]

Transforming in the air after smashing an opponent away (even if it wasn't an extremely deadly smash) seems to work for me just fine.

Anyway, Zelda so far seems to be a complete character who really doesn't need Sheik much if at all. When I'm playing her, I RARELY transform into Sheik...In all honesty I think they left the transformation in there just for fun and created two entirely separate characters (making the transformation longer certainly doesn't help the synergy either). Additionally, it's much harder to do any sort of combo's in this game and that seems (for me) to account for the "escapability" of Zelda's attack chains. Her moves are so awesomely powerful, though, that you can still hunt someone down even if they escape. ^_^

I used to love Sheik in Melee, but not so much in Brawl. >_> She doesn't suck or anything, she's juuust...not the same and I can't handle it. Lol

Me too. I rarely transformed into Sheik. But Brawl might change that. I could have even seen Zelda and Sheik as seperate characters.

And Sheik's new ......improvements....AHEM...are a bonus.

But would that take away from the Zelda/Sheik charm?

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

If they left the transformation the way it was, or god forbid, make it better, Zelda/Sheik would be so ridiculous, it's unfathomable.

I'm not sure people are figuring the decreasing power of spammed moves.

But, ya, Zelda can essentially stand on her own. Sheik might have KO troubles, though.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Hmm. Well, this is purely 'game theory' on my part, but I'm not immediately sure how to work in transformations in 1 vs. 1 play. Not beyond the things others suggested, that is. It may well be you have to choose to make a trade-off or wait until a top-of-screen KO.

But in team matches, I think the solution may be a little more simple; have your teammate protect you while you change. It seems to me like Link, Marth, and Pit would be particularly well suited to this. I know, that isn't a satisfying solution for 1v1 play, but I suspect many things become more viable in 2v2 and this might be one of 'em.

 

[Drake3]

"I'm changing! Don't come in!"

 

[Ztarfish]

Useless. Unless you like playing as Sheik (which I really don't) then there's no reason to use it.

 

[Moon/Sun]

I alternate between the two and I'm a little dishearted of the transform lag but I'll use it either way when I can.

 

[Krytha]

My strategy would be to start as Sheik, combo them up to a kill percentage, get hit away into the air, change there, kill with Zelda, switch back after theyre dead and start again.

 

[Ztarfish]

My strategy would be to start as Sheik, combo them up to a kill percentage, get hit away into the air, change there, kill with Zelda, switch back after theyre dead and start again.

Small problem, Sheik can't really get opponents at a far enough distance to transform until around 130-150 ish. And Zelda could've easily killed by then. Soo, again it's kind of hard to think of any workable synergy.

Like Drake said, their definitely reinforcing the differences between the two so people now have to choose a character based on the playstyle they like instead of using the 2 in union.

 

[Rikuo]

I never transformed into Sheik in Melee, I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to do it in Brawl, when it makes less sense. I love Zelda's play style. I honestly wish they removed Sheik from the game so she could have a down B that I'd actually use.

 

[behemoth]

Hey hey, let's not hate on the ninja. Let's keep this friendly . I really love the new Zelda, since I was a Zelda alt in melee (Sheik main), but I wish there was a good way to switch.

Just a quick question: when you're in the air, how much of your horizontal momentum does the transformation slow? vertical momentum?

Thanks guys.
~Behemoth

 

[BentoBox]

All comes down to asking yourself if there are matchups where Sheik would have more odds of winning.

 

[TP_Zant]

Yes Sheik will still have her uses, just focus on using one and not the other if you can help it.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

They would have been better off as 2 characters. After all, TP Zelda didn't have to be Sheik. I would have loved some form of Light Arrows be integrated into Zelda's normal moveset.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

You can use the two in union extremely well, actually. It's the time the Transform move takes that really keeps them apart. There are limited ways where you can safely Transform into Zelda from Sheik at reasonable percents... and doing it as Zelda to Sheik is easy enough (KO them).

Unlike Melee, they actually do cover each other's weaknesses. Sheik is stupidly good at building damage and has very high agility, and Zelda of course KOs with relative ease. Using them both is a good idea in a lot of matches once you get that Transform down, and of course, know how to use both.

 

[Krytha]

Small problem, Sheik can't really get opponents at a far enough distance to transform until around 130-150 ish. And Zelda could've easily killed by then. Soo, again it's kind of hard to think of any workable synergy.

Like Drake said, their definitely reinforcing the differences between the two so people now have to choose a character based on the playstyle they like instead of using the 2 in union.

Um, I never said I was going to hit them away, I said I was going to get hit away. Small (huge) difference.

 

[Zone]

Me too. I rarely transformed into Sheik. But Brawl might change that. I could have even seen Zelda and Sheik as seperate characters.

And Sheik's new ......improvements....AHEM...are a bonus.

But would that take away from the Zelda/Sheik charm?

What shiek improvements? Her down+B?

 

[Wildfire393]

What shiek improvements? Her down+B?

While Sheik's kill potential is nerfed, due to reduced knockback her damage-building potential is actually increased.

 

[Naybewon]

Just a quick question: when you're in the air, how much of your horizontal momentum does the transformation slow? vertical momentum?

Thanks guys.
~Behemoth

It doesn't alter any of your horizontal momentum, and it only SLIGHTLY slows your vertical momentum

 

[Ztarfish]

Um, I never said I was going to hit them away, I said I was going to get hit away. Small (huge) difference.

Sorry, I misread. Forgive me if "I'm going to hit them away" fits my schema of a transformation strategy more than the negative.

 

[Krytha]

Sorry, I misread. Forgive me if "I'm going to hit them away" fits my schema of a transformation strategy more than the negative.

Except... as you've noticed, it really doesn't. The game's physics have changed. You want to use that time to pursue, not transform - so one of the added bonuses of flying away from your opponent with the lightest hits is that you have air time, they have to pursue you, and all of a sudden you have invulnerability frames in the air. They can't camp the top right corner of the screen (well they can try...) THe point at which transforming into Zelda to KO is redundant at the point that Sheik can hit them far enough to give you that time. 150% is that point. I want to be turning into Zelda at 60-80% for the transform to be worth it, not to mention Sheik gets there SUPER FAST. I think that's worth getting hit for.

 

[Iris]

Well, I wouldn't get sent flying on purpose for that, but it's a very good idea in theory. I'll have to give it a try.

 

[Krytha]

Well, I wouldn't get sent flying on purpose for that, but it's a very good idea in theory. I'll have to give it a try.

You don't get hit on purpose, but statistically, you're going to get hit sometime and you might as well use that to your advantage. If you were so good that you never got hit, it wouldn't matter who you played.

 

[Ztarfish]

Except... as you've noticed, it really doesn't. The game's physics have changed. You want to use that time to pursue, not transform - so one of the added bonuses of flying away from your opponent with the lightest hits is that you have air time, they have to pursue you, and all of a sudden you have invulnerability frames in the air. They can't camp the top right corner of the screen (well they can try...) THe point at which transforming into Zelda to KO is redundant at the point that Sheik can hit them far enough to give you that time. 150% is that point. I want to be turning into Zelda at 60-80% for the transform to be worth it, not to mention Sheik gets there SUPER FAST. I think that's worth getting hit for.

I never said anything about you being wrong. Your post made much more sense to me after reading it, just realize not all of us have played Brawl and are still in the Melee mindset where being knocked away to do something as trivial as transforming would be bizarre. My whole point is I didn't actually read your post, I just skimmed over the words you wrote and put them together in my head. Having never seen a strategy where you get knocked away to transform, naturally my brain put together "I'll knock them away".

 

[Krytha]

I never said anything about you being wrong. Your post made much more sense to me after reading it, just realize not all of us have played Brawl and are still in the Melee mindset where being knocked away to do something as trivial as transforming would be bizarre. My whole point is I didn't actually read your post, I just skimmed over the words you wrote and put them together in my head. Having never seen a strategy where you get knocked away to transform, naturally my brain put together "I'll knock them away".

My post was the explanation.

 

[Soluble Toast]

Nope, the transformation time destroyed all possibility of me using them as a pair. I used them as a pair occasionally in Melee, and enjoyed switching between them. The transformation lag i quite distressing. I may feel different when I actually get my hands on the game, but I don't see that happening. The transformation takes too long. 4 seconds doesn't seem like long, but in Smash 4 seconds is enough to completely disrupt the flow of battle.

Sheik probably won't even exist to me in Brawl. I'll most likely never use her.

 

[Evil Toast]

Zelda's invincible during her transformation, you can't interupt it by attacking.

I saw a video where Pit tried to slash Zelda during her transformation, she wasn't affected at all.

 

[CCC07]

Zelda's invincible during her transformation, you can't interupt it by attacking.

I saw a video where Pit tried to slash Zelda during her transformation, she wasn't affected at all.

once the invincible frames are over she is a sitting duck. she can be punish
by fully charged attacks.

 

[goodkid]

I'm using Zelda all the way so I'm not worried about the transformations.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

If you want people's actually unbiased opinions on the matter, go to the Sheik forum. They need Zelda way more than we need Sheik.

 

[Zone]

While Sheik's kill potential is nerfed, due to reduced knockback her damage-building potential is actually increased.

I had to say it once...
I been in the Zelda Melee forumns for quite a long bit, and you don't know how many times shiek players talk about "Shieks worst move is down+B" Just ironic how it's the complete opposite of a worse choice now. maybe not for all situations.

AKA: twas a joke, wasn't ment to be taken seriously nor did it need a come-back with facts >.>;

 

[Jellybelly]

I do like to play as shiek, but if you compare Zelda and Shiek as characters then they're totally different, you'd have to change your strategy entirely in order to benifit.

But this could also work to your advantage, any change you have to get used to your opponent has to as well.

In tight spots, having access to some super fast ninja might make all the difference.

 

[Naybewon]

I do like to play as shiek, but if you compare Zelda and Shiek as characters then they're totally different, you'd have to change your strategy entirely in order to benifit.

But this could also work to your advantage, any change you have to get used to your opponent has to as well.

In tight spots, having access to some super fast ninja might make all the difference.

It's hard for me to think of a situation where turning ninja would make all the difference. Zelda is without a doubt 10x better in this game (and she was my main in Melee, not Sheik or even Zelda/Sheik together...just Zelda) and doesn't need Sheik at all. Her crowd clearing abilities are incredible and she has more priority overall, attack-wise. Every one of her moves is faster (except of course her transformation, which is ridiculously slow as we all know) Her kick is harder to nail in the sweet spot, but when you actually do it it's one of the best moves in the game.

Her speed and floatyness didn't change much, HOWEVER due to the floatyness of the new game itself, it's actually made her much better as other characters who didn't used to be floaty now are. So she's on equal float with many characters (I'm not claiming all of them, but many if not most) and has more attack power plus faster attacks.

So Zelda wins. Sorry Sheik !!