Falco Matchup Thread #36: Snake

-DR3W-

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 13, 2010
Messages
2,611
Location
FL.US
NNID
DrewTheAsher
#1


In this thread, post any contribution you have regarding the Snake matchup.

Keep these in mind when posting:
- What do we have against him?
- What to watch out for?
- Certain do's & don'ts
- Stage advantages and disadvantages.
- Any additional information or data necessary.
 

Blacknight99923

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
2,315
Location
UCLA
#2
I do not think I am knowledgeable enough on this match up to right a detailed write up (as detailed as my marth one anyway) but I would like to say the following now.



if you're up in his face jab beats a lot of his options
but his spaced ftilt a lot of our options.



Snake is one of the easiest characters to get a chain grab on. His options at avoiding the chain grab aren't THAT great.

Almost all players have habits they employ to avoid getting grabbed. To make this match up sooooo much easier try noticing what your opponent does on your first stock, even if you take a little bit of extra damage it will benefit you greatly if you can memorize their habits and bait them on subsequent stocks.

The reason I bring this up against snake as opposed to other characters is that snake isn't THAT hard to grab if he stays on the ground (and if he platform camps thats free juggles on a juggle prone character).



Snake has a relatively hard time pinning down falco, if you can avoid getting punished by uptilts, or other kill moves its difficult for snake to force a kill on falco.
 
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
1,017
Location
Austin, Texas
#3
Just want to say, Do not EVER fish for grabs. Try to pressure with SHSL mid range and right out of dash attack range(important range to take notice of) and mix up walk up jabs,Ftilts,doing nothing, read a roll, whatever you can possibly imagine. Don't be a zombie and gun for a grab at 0%.

:phone:
 

Blacknight99923

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
2,315
Location
UCLA
#4
Just want to say, Do not EVER fish for grabs. Try to pressure with SHSL mid range and right out of dash attack range(important range to take notice of) and mix up walk up jabs,Ftilts,doing nothing, read a roll, whatever you can possibly imagine. Don't be a zombie and gun for a grab at 0%.

:phone:
I just want to say, for clarification that I am not suggesting you fish for grabs, only that you pay attention to the snake players habits when he's at cg percents. Not that you should run up and grab, if you don't have a read on the snake I suggest playing as you normally would.

Safety first
 

Blondie.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
281
Location
Aggieland, College Station, TX
#5
-The chaingrab is really important to get. You can often get up to 80-100% damage on snake before he makes it back. After the spike, mix up your followups and get creative. If the snake recovers close to the stage, spike him or grab him out of his cypher. If he recovers far away, try shooting a laser to interrupt his c4 recovery. It can catch him off guard, then go for another spike. Also, footstooling is really good if you can get it. Just be creative and you can rack up some serious damage or even death on snake.

-Watch out for snake's tilts! He kills so early and they have so much range. They can get predictable sometimes though. If you know a tilt is coming, just shield it and then punish with a dash attack or dash grab. (I think up smash will punish a ftilt on shield also).

-You can reflect all of snakes projectiles, including grenades, missiles, and his mortar upsmash. Also if you use reflector above a mine, it will detonate.

Overall, this is a pretty hard matchup for me that I don't understand too well. I'm mostly bumping this to get more input from other falcos.
 

#HBC | Ryker

Netplay Monstrosity
GRimer
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Messages
5,334
Location
Mobile, AL
#6
I want to talk about this MU, but don't have the time.

Interesting trivia: This is the only MU where I get more FSmash kills than USmash.
 

DEHF

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
2,262
Location
reseda CA
NNID
larrlurr
#7
My advice would be to make sure your juggling game is on point or else this match up is going to be a lot harder than it should be. The main thing you want to focus on in this match up is getting Snake in the air and keeping him there until you take his stock. Falco's aerials frame trap Snake very well and since he's heavy he doesn't go very far when he gets hit, so you can usually get a few follow ups from your attacks. I feel like going aggro in the air and chasing Snake is usually the best option when you have him in that position.

When you are in a neutral position vs Snake I've found that playing camping or aggro doesn't matter too much in the match up. If you're playing campy you can rack up a lot of damage through lasers and even set up a juggle with side b, but I'd be careful about abusing side b vs a good Snake since you can eat a lot of damage if he hits you out of your side b and punishes the landing lag.

If you play a Snake that tends to be very defensive by hiding in shield or relying on dodges, playing aggro can work very well. Short hop nair is a good since Snake is tall enough to actually get hit with the attack, it seems like a difficult move for Snake players to punish. Falco should able to punish any attack Snake does on Falco's shield with at least a dash attack, except maybe a perfectly spaced utilt.

After Snake is out of chain grab % it's probably best to use uthrow or bthrow to start up a juggle. If you grab Snake near the edge you should almost always be able to get a follow up if you throw him offstage. If Snake DIs toward the stage he's put right next to you since he's such a heavy weight, putting you in a position to frame trap him with your aerials and if he DIs away he's probably going to have to use up b putting him in a position to be edge guarded and lose a stock.

The main things you have to look out for when you have him offstage is the bair and grenades which can interrupt your juggling. If you move in front of Snake you eliminate his bair option, which means he will most likely grenade or air dodge.

The main problem in this match up is Snake being able to kill you so early, just be extra cautious when you get to kill % since his range is deceiving . Although it's possible, I feel Snake usually doesn't to that high of a percent vs Falco since it's very possible to get early kills on him with Fsmash and edge guarding his up b.

Overall, I feel this match up is very even. It's usually Falco ****** Snake at earlier %, but then Snake catches up fairly quickly with his high damage output and kill strength.
 

Blondie.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
281
Location
Aggieland, College Station, TX
#8
How are you supposed to deal with grenades? That is one of the hardest things about this mathchup for me. They mess up your phantsasm, they make it difficult to approach, they make it difficult to camp, they have a big damage output, and if you hit a snake holding one, it hurts you too. And it always seems like they're everywhere.
 

DEHF

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
2,262
Location
reseda CA
NNID
larrlurr
#9
It takes some practice, I suggest learning to space the side b so that you hit the grenades on the invincible part of the side b. You also should be aware of when Snake took out a grenade, so that you can time the explosion. If Snake is pulling out a grenade and holding one close to you just side b away, space it so you hit him with the invincible part of the side b, if the grenade explodes only he will be hit. You also have the option of not going near him when he has the grenades and just laser camping. If you ever feel like you're in a situation where you'll be hit on the ground you can jump away, if you think Snake will chase after you land with a laser.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,353
#10
Not sure why everyone keeps saying the invincible part of phantasm. He is not invincible at any part of the move.

DEHF, by going aggro in the air what do you mean by that? I always feel like I have to wait for Snake to do something before attempting an attack or else he'll airdodge to avoid or trade with Bair. Or it'll completely miss by a well timed reversal.
 

teluoborg

Smash Otter
Premium
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
4,039
Location
Paris, France
NNID
teloutre
#11
Well there's a part of it that has a hitbox but no hurtbox, so it's pretty much similar to being invincible.

About juggles you can force Snake to make the first move by timing an empty FH so that he can't react to your SJ Bair when you're at the apex of your jump. The important part is to synchronize with his falling speed.

About grenades I usually see it that way : when Snakes spawns a grenade there is a little amount of time before he can do something dangerous with it, before that time is up he can only throw that grenade (phantom hit) or shield.
So you can use this window of time to either grab him or get away.

About positionning I either try to get close to Snake (in my grab range) or very far away (outside of his dash attack range). Anywhere between those 2 positions I feel like it's not worth trying.

It's probably my favorite matchup among the tops.
 

DEHF

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
2,262
Location
reseda CA
NNID
larrlurr
#12
^What he said

Once you're in that position against Snake in the air there's not much he can do. If he air dodges you usually frame trap him with bair.

If you're not good at beating out his bair, just go in front of him where he can't hit you with it. If you miss it's okay, it can happen, it's much better than trading with Snake.
 
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
3
#13
Heyo, I'm kind of new to the Meta-game and whatnot, but I like to think that I'm a pretty decent Falco. Anyways, I was wondering...
I have a friend who mains Snake and never uses grenades (I keep telling him that he can never beat me without them), so I get him into a ton of chaingrabs.
After a while, it got to the point where if I grabbed him at any chaingrabbable position during the match, it was a guarentee that he would lose a stock.
Now, the way this would happen was that I'd grab him by the middle of the stage (Remember, no grenades) and I would just simply chain grab him to the edge and D-air spike him.
After I D-air spiked him, I'd follow him down and wait for him to up B (It was his only option, as if he tried any other action, he would simply die from falling) when he did, I would D-air jump spike him to his death and me towards the stage so that I would be able to recover using up B.
So basically, I double spiked him with no repercussions (Maybe a random Cypher to the face here and there, but no stage-spiking material).
No matter how many times I tried this, he could not find a single way to get out of it. I was just wondering... is there literally nothing a Snake player can do about that once they get grabbed?
If so, that's pretty much a guaranteed 0-death right there. (Sorry if I posted this to the wrong thread, I just thought it would be helpful in the Falco v.s. Snake matchup if it turned out to be guaranteed).
 

Darktega

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
86
Location
México
NNID
Darktega13
#14
Heyo, I'm kind of new to the Meta-game and whatnot, but I like to think that I'm a pretty decent Falco. Anyways, I was wondering...
I have a friend who mains Snake and never uses grenades (I keep telling him that he can never beat me without them), so I get him into a ton of chaingrabs.
After a while, it got to the point where if I grabbed him at any chaingrabbable position during the match, it was a guarentee that he would lose a stock.
Now, the way this would happen was that I'd grab him by the middle of the stage (Remember, no grenades) and I would just simply chain grab him to the edge and D-air spike him.
After I D-air spiked him, I'd follow him down and wait for him to up B (It was his only option, as if he tried any other action, he would simply die from falling) when he did, I would D-air jump spike him to his death and me towards the stage so that I would be able to recover using up B.
So basically, I double spiked him with no repercussions (Maybe a random Cypher to the face here and there, but no stage-spiking material).
No matter how many times I tried this, he could not find a single way to get out of it. I was just wondering... is there literally nothing a Snake player can do about that once they get grabbed?
If so, that's pretty much a guaranteed 0-death right there. (Sorry if I posted this to the wrong thread, I just thought it would be helpful in the Falco v.s. Snake matchup if it turned out to be guaranteed).
Well, as of my knowledge, a good Snake can get out of a CG if he's holding a grenade, which is most likely if you're fishing for a grab to start a CG. Now, while that is a little obvious as you made the point yourself there, it isn't a 0-death right there if the Snake knows how to get out of the CG. And that's considering he is in CG percentage, which is 0%-53%, in further percentages he can DI out of the CG or throw a grenade.

So, in your other point, let's say you managed to get the spike out of stage, Snake can SDI towards the stage and he can get on stage safely. If Snake doesn't SDI then, as you said, you surely can get the kill in a Dair way. What Snake can do in this position is hopping for the best and mixing his recovery to get on stage. If I were Snake, in the position where my only option is to recover with Up-B, as a Falco you don't want to go straight to the point where you can Dair suicide, so you have to wait for Snake to get some reasonable height and then go, so, me as Snake I would try to use Up-B to get away from stage and then recover trying to use C4 to gain a boost recovering and get safely.

Usually, Snake doesn't care for the percentages beacuse he can turn around things so quickly that he can even damage himself with grenades to get out of CG percentage.

So, to sum up, if you're a good Snake you won't get that easy killed, and no, it isn't a 0-death string.
Hope this helped.
 
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
3
#15
Darktega: Oh, I forgot to mention that I don't always chain him to the edge, sometimes he'll get to too high of a percentage at which at that point, I downsmash him followed with Tech chases... So I took your advice into account and told my friend about SDI towards the stage, and I've found that I can still follow him, get the second D-air, and kill him. If he tries to get the C4, it just ends with both of us dying before he can get the C4 to explode. If I want to play cautious, I'll back off at this point, and I'll follow him to the other side of the stage and go from there... if he tries to cypher, he dies and I live. If he tries any type of smash attack, then he dies and I live. So at the very best, I can exchange stocks with him. But that's him. I don't know how it works with a good Snake player, so thanks for the correction!

Counter Approach: So, in my fairly average experience against a fairly average Snake player, I've found that lasers can save you from most forms of setting up on stage for snake. To counter this, most snakes will either shield roll towards you, crawl towards you, or nade spam you from afar. To counter these options is quite simple: Expect the shield roll and punish, Jump towards a crawling snake while ending your jump with a neutral air followed into whatever combo you would like (Most likely ones started with a regular jab), and just shoot or reflect the grenades (Provided that you do so in a lagless maner, otherwise you'll just give snake an easy opportunity to rush you).

Recovery: If a Snake has managed to knock you off to the side of the stage, and is already at the edge, beware the up-tilt/up-smash. If it's obvious that side B is your only option, mix it up. Pretend that you're going for a Side-B to the stage directly through him, but instead, cancel it short so that his up-tilt is early, and you can catch the ledge. If he's mortering his pants off, you can usually find an easy hole through the morters for which to go through (I suggest long cancelling this illusion, as it will make it less easy for him to catch you to throw you off stage again).

Ledge Recovery: If you're stuck on a ledge, I suggest mixing your approach to what his mindset of counters would be. If he's mortering the ledge, jump reflect them to catch the ledge again. If he's planning on catching you with some tilts or jabs, ledge bounce to back air. If he's set the edge of the stage to explode with multiple explosives, jump reflect to get rid of the trip mine (getting rid of any grenades in the process). Don't try to just plain jump illusion back onto the stage; it's too predictable. Learn to cancel at varying distances to fake him out.

General Advice: Your jab is awesome. Use it. If he's on the ground, get that sucker back on his feet so you can grab him.
DON'T TEST YOUR BACK AIR AGAINST HIS. Also, don't D-air him if he's trying to juggle you, just get out of the juggle and back onto the stage as quickly as you can.
Don't fight him in the air unless it is to your advantage. Most snake players know that they can be easily juggled, so they try to get back to the stage as quick as possible: Use this to your advantage. Mind games. A tricky Falco is a smart Falco.

If I'm wrong about any of this information, I am terribly sorry, for I have not faced an extreme variety of Snake players, and I wish to correct that info if necessary.
 

-DR3W-

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 13, 2010
Messages
2,611
Location
FL.US
NNID
DrewTheAsher
#17
If somebody is on the ground, why wouldn't it be better to just laser lock them? Am I just reading it wrong?
Odds are you won't have enough time to start a standing laser in competitive play unless you force them into that position (like bairing their shield off a platform > laser lock)
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
66
Location
Oslo, Norway
Switch FC
5259-5066-0804
#18
Agreed with everything DEHF said. Main priority is keeping him in juggles. Even the thing about bthrow and uthrow makes a lot of sense. I have charged a bdacus from dthrow into a good DI'd snake who landed with an air dodge and stopped me cold with utilt before, and it was depressing. I still like to use dthrow untill like 80 % because of the followups it can make. If he doesn't DI at all, you can just run and regrab him. If he DIs high you can start an early juggle. If he DIs low, he will be free from almost any followups, but he will be sent further, and if that is outside the stage, he's in a bigger mess.

Snake wants to recover high and get as close to the middle of the stage as he can. Falco has got great jumps, so he can intercept snake unless he is too close to the blast zone and too far away from the stage, or has got his second jump. When you're used to snake's recovery and falco's jump ability, it will sometimes reward you with the inevitable uair at the peak of falco's second jump after a full hop.
If you miss, snake's got a few different options, depending on how close he is to the middle. If he's close enough, he can space away from you with reversal grenades or reversal c4, which gives him a big change of momentum. You can still juggle him well even with the nades, as long as you make sure to only hit his legs, to avoid hitting the nade.

If Snake recovers and doesn't have his second jump, he will most likely not be able to get that lucky, however. Repelling him with bair works only so well, but gives him the chance to DI high, so I would personally choose bair at low percent to chain him to another bair or maybe a dair, and kill percent to.. well, yeah. Kill him. Dair will always be priority number 1 offstage if you're able, though. If you are good at hitting the cypher, you can spike him anywhere offstage and get away with it, because the cypher gives you knockback with about 180 degrees trajetory angle iirc. That doesn't mean you should be too brave and make yourself look like a fool by dying, though.
It's important to know how far on the stage snake can go at maximum. If you see that he can't go further than the ledge, grab it. I know snakes today still tries footstooling people one the ledge, but if you do a getup roll, that won't happen and snake will only look stupid and fall. If he can reach the first meters of the stage, you can do almost whatever you want. He will try out a few desperate things like nair, b reversal to grab the ledge etc, but fsmash will cover everything.

On stage you will be ok as long as you keep up your game. Snake's dangerous tools on stage can be a pain to deal with. His dthrow can put you in a very awkward position and even lead to an utilt so watch out for his insane pivot grab reach. Be wary of his nades and mines. He can make things difficult for you to approach him, but that's none of your concern. Know the timer of the nade and the hit-, and hurtboxes of your phantasm. While you're invulnerable to the mines at the first part of the phantasm, you can also avoid hitting the nade at the last part, because of lack of hitbox. In short, just space your phantasm with care against snake and not in a rush, no matter how scary he is. C4 and landmines should be harmless if you make a few good mental notes to yourself while watching snake as he put them - landmines are more beneficial to you than to him if you are careful. You can even escape tech chases by rolling through them and make combos by chaingrabbing him into them

His tilts are what makes him so scary, so you have reason to respect them. Always be wary of the utilt, as it is his greatest KO weapon of all. It's disjointed, but should be easy to avoid unless you're in a tech chase. If you're at high percent, be very careful if you decide to get close to him. Camping is definitely your best option here. Have your shield finger ready whenever you are close to him. If you are close enough, jabs would be sufficient. If he ftilts you within jab range, you can avoid the second ftilt simply by pressing the control stick towards him (c-stick would help too, but isn't necessary at this range). If you shield ftilt, you can react a good dash attack for a punish.

This is probably my best matchup, and definitely my most played one. Your jab quite outmatches snake if you're close enough, so this is where you want to be if you're not camping, and you're winning the camping by simply shooting, reflecting, dodging, and an eventual retreating. You have a chaingrab, you can kill snake early if you get him offstage, but onstage snake can rack up damage almost just as quick as you would and he kills much earlier. I'd say the matchup is pretty even, with maybe a slight advantage to falco.
 
Top