PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Basically wanted him to get off the platform and cover any more SHs he did. M2K camps, so he was unlikely to rush me down there.

Yeah it's harder to confirm here, but he also (S)DI'd away so it was a bit uncomfortable to try and follow up on.

Just to dodge the possible dash attack since M2K has no issue yolo'ing sometimes. It does also fake yeah. Marth dodges any counteryolo out of disadvantage and can hit back with that DJ.

He's very unlikely to walk Utilt there, and WD Utilt would've sourspotted me being in front of him. Waveland back in front of him just covers rolls or any attempts to counter falling laser while holding stage.

Backflip distorts my hurtbox a little more which keeps me safer in the event of yet another yolo DA. It can also help me Bair if they roll in, or laser/dair/etc to mixup.

I probably knew something from analyzing him that he didn't immediately swing it looks like. It's a very strange action to take there otherwise.

 

[PAWN1]

He's very unlikely to walk Utilt there, and WD Utilt would've sourspotted me being in front of him. Waveland back in front of him just covers rolls or any attempts to counter falling laser while holding stage.

How does Marth best attempt to counter falling laser? From this action it looks like you avoid short hop fair and jab.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZKx_VtnrHc

11:05 - when should you do laser vs dash dance vs wavedash away from ledge when pressuring a Marth camping the ledge? It feels more like you’re just keeping yourself warmed up for when he leaves ledge rather than trying to just keep him from leaving ledge.

12:30 - No questions here, but it looks really apparent how you like to confirm out of laser throughout this pressure sequence - with your post laser movement when shooting from a distance, and during laser start up when you end up close when the laser fires.

3:34 - Why this walk away from the ledge here? Is it because the side platform makes it awkward to pressure Marth in the corner at the moment?

3:54 - Oookay what is this? This spacing is crazy. Does this beat anything else besides short hop bair? Were you just trying to empty land on the ground to maybe catch dash away and then reacted to M2K doing that with shine? Or were you straight reading this?

4:13 - Why would Marth up air in this situation? Falco double jumping to top platform?

 

[Tanwad]

Hey PP, quick question in the Falco-Sheik matchup. When Sheik stays in the corner and throws out f tilt/up tilt, what is your usual approach to combat that? I find I can usually shoot one or two lasers before they get powershielded, and then when I move in to contest the space I get stuffed by Sheik's tilts. Any advice on what to do in center stage in this position? Should I retreat and have her approach me on my own terms?

 

[Dr Peepee]

How does Marth best attempt to counter falling laser? From this action it looks like you avoid short hop fair and jab.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZKx_VtnrHc

11:05 - when should you do laser vs dash dance vs wavedash away from ledge when pressuring a Marth camping the ledge? It feels more like you’re just keeping yourself warmed up for when he leaves ledge rather than trying to just keep him from leaving ledge.

12:30 - No questions here, but it looks really apparent how you like to confirm out of laser throughout this pressure sequence - with your post laser movement when shooting from a distance, and during laser start up when you end up close when the laser fires.

3:34 - Why this walk away from the ledge here? Is it because the side platform makes it awkward to pressure Marth in the corner at the moment?

3:54 - Oookay what is this? This spacing is crazy. Does this beat anything else besides short hop bair? Were you just trying to empty land on the ground to maybe catch dash away and then reacted to M2K doing that with shine? Or were you straight reading this?

4:13 - Why would Marth up air in this situation? Falco double jumping to top platform?

I find lasers initially good in case of early getups, and otherwise faking lasers good. WDs can be good to encourage them to get up faster since that's time you're locked out of lasering. It's all mixups.

3:34- Sort of, but also M2K camping. I didn't want his cheese to work as you may be noticing by this point.

He couldn't punish me much if he did hit me, and I was pretty far away so it wasn't likely he would imo.

Sort of, but also if I came in to punish, the back hit could hit me.

Hey PP, quick question in the Falco-Sheik matchup. When Sheik stays in the corner and throws out f tilt/up tilt, what is your usual approach to combat that? I find I can usually shoot one or two lasers before they get powershielded, and then when I move in to contest the space I get stuffed by Sheik's tilts. Any advice on what to do in center stage in this position? Should I retreat and have her approach me on my own terms?

You could retreat here. You can also just move forward a bit and laser in place again, or back up and laser forward to still be out of range of her tilts and pressure her there. You can also laser and wait for the tilt then attack, or SH in waveland back/DJ and pressure or punish the tilt from there.

 

[PAWN1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls

0:13 - What does Fox get from full hop bairing on the side platform here?

0:15 - Is this run off shine just to catch Fox if he’s off guard? Seems like it loses to up tilt but is fairly safe if it whiffs as long as Fox doesn’t interrupt you. Might beat bair as well.

0:24 - Another instance of you short hop empty landing under a side platform. Can you explain your decision here?

0:37 - Why a full hop double jump with no aerial here? Seems like full hop bair would make more sense.

0:38 - After observing where he lands while you’re falling, you’re both in a range where you can attack each other unreactably. So now you dash away while observing what he does. You see that he doesn’t come in while you’re dashing away, but anticipate that he’ll approaching with run in shield during your next action, so you do a short dash away -> dash in -> nair. Am I getting this right?

1:07 - Can you explain this dash sequence after whiffing the nair? It looks like a sequence of 3 sequences -

• Medium dash away -> extremely short dash in -> medium dash away that you like to use to whiff punish things
• Extremely short dash in -> full dash away that you do after reacting to the fact that Fox hasn’t whiffed yet
• Medium dash away -> dash in shield to hopefully catch the full hop aerial that you reacted to during the previous dash sequence

 

[Ober]

Hi PP, currently when I jump towards a character, especially marth, I am choosing an option based on what I think they will do and reacting to the outcome. A problem I've encountered is when I approaching laser thinking the marth will dash back after a laser in place, and they end up holding shield. I often land just out of range of shine and they immediately grab and I get grabbed. Where should my reaction point be?

 

[Meck]

Hi PP

Whenever I sit down to play a friendly with someone I am consistently 2-3 stocking, I gradually lose motivation as the session goes on. I'm not sure why because there are plenty of things I know I need to work on but because it is not challenging, I get distracted and start to autopilot. I'm unsure how to convince myself to start valuing those types of practice sessions.


I was losing to Sheik's full hop needles so I used 20XX to replay the situation over and over again. I wasn't able to play against a Sheik until a tournament set where they used a lot of full hop needles. When the situation came up, I fell back on my old habits as my ideas slowly came back to me, but it was already too late. What I'm asking is how do I practice a situation I've been thinking about but I don't have access to that matchup or my opponent never does that option?

Thanks

 

[Dr Peepee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls

0:13 - What does Fox get from full hop bairing on the side platform here?

0:15 - Is this run off shine just to catch Fox if he’s off guard? Seems like it loses to up tilt but is fairly safe if it whiffs as long as Fox doesn’t interrupt you. Might beat bair as well.

0:24 - Another instance of you short hop empty landing under a side platform. Can you explain your decision here?

0:37 - Why a full hop double jump with no aerial here? Seems like full hop bair would make more sense.

0:38 - After observing where he lands while you’re falling, you’re both in a range where you can attack each other unreactably. So now you dash away while observing what he does. You see that he doesn’t come in while you’re dashing away, but anticipate that he’ll approaching with run in shield during your next action, so you do a short dash away -> dash in -> nair. Am I getting this right?

1:07 - Can you explain this dash sequence after whiffing the nair? It looks like a sequence of 3 sequences -

• Medium dash away -> extremely short dash in -> medium dash away that you like to use to whiff punish things
• Extremely short dash in -> full dash away that you do after reacting to the fact that Fox hasn’t whiffed yet
• Medium dash away -> dash in shield to hopefully catch the full hop aerial that you reacted to during the previous dash sequence

Hitting me trying to punish landing lag.

Could shield stab, and also pressure which is important. It can also be a bait.

Didn't want to DJ above and potentially get hit by him being above me with his FH aerial. Didn't have to worry about shield drop at the time. It could still be useful now, but it's more complex now.

Guess I'm still looking at FH OOS. May be wanting to ensure he doesn't take center in any way. Doing Bair puts you in more direct lag. Sometimes being most straightforward is best though. Do what you want.

More or less.

We have different definitions of these dashes looks like. In my view, I short dashed a bit too much and was too fixated on approaching and not preparing any counterattacks, so I let him rush me down in awkward spots twice. Had I done more medium/long dashes imo I would have been better able to react.

Hi PP, currently when I jump towards a character, especially marth, I am choosing an option based on what I think they will do and reacting to the outcome. A problem I've encountered is when I approaching laser thinking the marth will dash back after a laser in place, and they end up holding shield. I often land just out of range of shine and they immediately grab and I get grabbed. Where should my reaction point be?

If you move in with laser, you pretty confirm what to do while the laser is out. You can dash back to avoid grab sometimes, or dash JC shine depending on spacing.

Hi PP

Whenever I sit down to play a friendly with someone I am consistently 2-3 stocking, I gradually lose motivation as the session goes on. I'm not sure why because there are plenty of things I know I need to work on but because it is not challenging, I get distracted and start to autopilot. I'm unsure how to convince myself to start valuing those types of practice sessions.


I was losing to Sheik's full hop needles so I used 20XX to replay the situation over and over again. I wasn't able to play against a Sheik until a tournament set where they used a lot of full hop needles. When the situation came up, I fell back on my old habits as my ideas slowly came back to me, but it was already too late. What I'm asking is how do I practice a situation I've been thinking about but I don't have access to that matchup or my opponent never does that option?

Thanks

I think it helps to specifically state to yourself before the session what you'd like to work on. That way you hold yourself accountable for how good it was at the end. Winning is not all that matters!!! You can also give yourself a handicap of some kind to help you focus if needed.

You can either ask your opponent to use it or run through it with you, or also practice the ways in which a Sheik will mix up using that option. That way you practice beating the option itself, but also everything else. Then you practice counters not just for that one option, but for a variety of options.

 

[PAWN1]

We have different definitions of these dashes looks like. In my view, I short dashed a bit too much and was too fixated on approaching and not preparing any counterattacks, so I let him rush me down in awkward spots twice. Had I done more medium/long dashes imo I would have been better able to react.

So that we're on the same page, would this be more accurate?

• Short dash away
• Extremely short dash in -> extremely short dash away -> extremely short dash in (looking to approach here, maybe catch run up shield)
• Full dash away
• Medium dash away -> dash in shield

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls

1:09 - after grabbing when he's rolling, you do a:

• extremely short dash away -> extremely dash in -> short dash away, which looks like it sets up well for a nair to beat run up shield from Fox
• short dash in -> medium dash away instead of nair, which sets up for a bair which beats Fox aerialing OOS.

What are the advantages of doing that short dash in -> medium dash away over nair? What comes to mind is that it's not possible to whiff punish if Fox dash danced for an extra iteration instead of run up shielding, at the cost of stage position. Nair also gets easily CC'd but I don't think that's what you were concerned about here.

1:22 - Interesting. Instead of dashing away to confirm Fox's action post landing, you full hop laser. This laser is above Fox's full hop height from the ground, so why do this here?

2:06 - Interesting cross up empty hop. Is this a timing mix up to catch Fox moving/aerialing OOS? It also looks like it lets you set up tomahawk shine on the back of their shield.

2:10 - Why throw Fox back on stage here? Tell me you were trying to swag

2:26 - Full hop DJ after up throw. This is to play the position after the throw since it looks like there’s no real follow ups with this DI, correct? From what I can see, this covers Fox going to top platform but you can quickly get back down to the ground after reacting to them not going there.

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's closer.

The fake lets you set up an approach in which you back up a bit, but also moves you away in case you're wrong.

I think it was a tech error.

Yeah it lets you pressure many different timings of actions OOS. Very good if they just want to hold it, and makes them less likely to hold in the future, which is good to just land raw aerials in neutral. Raw aerials are the good damage.

I don't know why, my mind just said "do it" LOL. I felt the flow really strongly there and knew he wouldn't expect it. He ran away like I expected afterward.

Pretty much yeah, lets me keep center too.

 

[R3_]

how do you feel about dair > grab before knockdown %? I was watching Albert vs Ginger at smash camp and noticed Albert doing it. I guess it's good bc it covers the sdi and is probs the only thing at that percent that won't get cc'd

Edit: I labbed it out a little and the grab only comes out if you're frame perfect, assuming they're frame perfect and obviously gives you a few frames of leniency, depending on how fast their character's "get off me" moves are

so I guess my question is; do you think this is reliable/consistent?

 

[PAWN1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls

2:45 - Laser in the corner -> confirm fox moved to side platform during laser -> roll out of the corner. Am I seeing this correctly? You do this twice when cornered after this timestamp. Probably more complicated now that shield drops are a thing.

2:57 - Just to make sure I have the right idea about this - you're confident that this laser will hit, as you confirm Fox’s position and action during start up of laser and know what height the laser will come out at. It's just a slight input error that leads to this not getting you a dair.

3:19 - After falling and confirming Fox is on the top platform, you do a full dash away to confirm Fox’s action. You confirm he’s short hopped off backwards and do an extremely short dash in -> dash away to get out of range of an aerial. During this dash away, you could have confirmed that Fox aerialed and whiff punished with a grab, but you weren’t confident in that and dash danced in place for a moment instead. Am I getting this right? Also, did you dash dance in place because you were concerned about Fox drifting back or wavelanding back instead of aerialing?

 

[Dr Peepee]

how do you feel about dair > grab before knockdown %? I was watching Albert vs Ginger at smash camp and noticed Albert doing it. I guess it's good bc it covers the sdi and is probs the only thing at that percent that won't get cc'd

Edit: I labbed it out a little and the grab only comes out if you're frame perfect, assuming they're frame perfect and obviously gives you a few frames of leniency, depending on how fast their character's "get off me" moves are

so I guess my question is; do you think this is reliable/consistent?

You labbed it at 0? With CC? Lowest Dair?

Anyway, I think Dair grab tends to work because people shield after Dair to avoid the shine a lot. The downside is the conversion is usually weaker. If you're by the edge that's not so bad though. It can be better to walk/dash JC shine if you can get it though, or sometimes go for pressure for a bigger followup. This depends on many things such as stage position and whether they will react well to Uthrow for example, so a lot goes into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls

2:45 - Laser in the corner -> confirm fox moved to side platform during laser -> roll out of the corner. Am I seeing this correctly? You do this twice when cornered after this timestamp. Probably more complicated now that shield drops are a thing.

2:57 - Just to make sure I have the right idea about this - you're confident that this laser will hit, as you confirm Fox’s position and action during start up of laser and know what height the laser will come out at. It's just a slight input error that leads to this not getting you a dair.

3:19 - After falling and confirming Fox is on the top platform, you do a full dash away to confirm Fox’s action. You confirm he’s short hopped off backwards and do an extremely short dash in -> dash away to get out of range of an aerial. During this dash away, you could have confirmed that Fox aerialed and whiff punished with a grab, but you weren’t confident in that and dash danced in place for a moment instead. Am I getting this right? Also, did you dash dance in place because you were concerned about Fox drifting back or wavelanding back instead of aerialing?

Yeah pretty much. And somewhat, though if I expect them to shield drop and attack right away it could still be worth it.

I was pretty sure it'd hit, I'd be close enough, and he'd try to challenge me so I'd get a connection or pressure at minimum with Dair. But yeah I shot too high which was lame.

He could have drifted away which would've meant the grab would've whiffed so I was looking for that. But yeah he could've empty landed or wavelanded, though I wouldn't expect him to waveland. Honestly, it's most likely an error in focus on my part and overdoing movement. This happened periodically throughout SKTAR 3 where I would be in and out of focus. I set myself up but did not react to his lag, which should have been possible given my setup. Still you're largely right.

 

[R3_]

You labbed it at 0? With CC? Lowest Dair?

Anyway, I think Dair grab tends to work because people shield after Dair to avoid the shine a lot. The downside is the conversion is usually weaker. If you're by the edge that's not so bad though. It can be better to walk/dash JC shine if you can get it though, or sometimes go for pressure for a bigger followup. This depends on many things such as stage position and whether they will react well to Uthrow for example, so a lot goes into it.

oh I forgot about different percentages oops (only tried it at 0), without cc, lowest dair

Yeah I didn't realise that theres that many different reasons on whether to go for it or not but being such a tight window (at least at 0, I'll test right before knockdown %) it seems not really worth it maybe bc of the lack of followups. Thanks for the reply!

 

[PAWN1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls

3:20 - You laser shield here. Were you not confident that the laser would hit? What makes laser -> shield useful in this situation?

4:00 - Why the f tilt after the back throw? Misreading the DI and though he’d land on the stage instead of side platform and then run in?

4:14 - Dash back -> turnaround laser -> dash away while confirming Fox action(see that he’s shielding) -> dash in -> WD forward (confirm that he full hopped) -> walk -> jab. Am I getting this sequence right? And are you trying to anti air Fox with jab and confirm it into a bair on the missed tech? Or perhaps still thinking about Fox shielding and trying to catch his OOS option?

4:30 - Short hop laser in place after the WD - a read on Fox wavedashing down/run up shielding? This would’ve gotten stuffed if Fox just went in, so you must've expected either a wait or a dash back, right?

4:31 - Laser in place -> dash away (confirm Fox is shielding) -> dash in dair (confirm Fox full hopped) -> long dash away (confirm Fox dashed away) -> long dash in to bait a run up shield -> dash away bair. Am I interpreting this sequence properly?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I shot high and was worried of him running under it probably. Or taking the hit then attacking I guess....maybe also shielding or waiting then attacking when he saw I shot over him? Just not a good moment from me.

Yeah I hadn't seen people get Bthrown to platform before as well. I also thought he might come off the platform looking at my continued walk forward.

You pretty much got it right. No idea why I jabbed so early when I clearly had a confirm set up. Just bizarre stuff I was doing there when I lost focus lol but you can see the setup.

I did not expect him to rush me there, you are right.

I didn't spend enough time in dash back to confirm the shield....well on a couple rewatches maybe. It's close. Mango timed his jump really well there. The rest is correct besides the dash in, which I used to either pressure if he waited or to encourage that action if he came in.

 

[PAWN1]

The rest is correct besides the dash in, which I used to either pressure if he waited or to encourage that action if he came in.

How would you go about pressuring Fox if he waits here(especially considering he has center stage)? I'm thinking a short dash dance in place. Or is the dash in itself pressure?

4:39 - Was this dair to cover Fox full hop double jump wavelanding off the side of the top platform?

4:52 - Why shield and roll after this full hop fair? I know the fair was probably a missed input but this looks hit confirmable.

4:54 - Why dash dance -> full hop to top platform after noticing Fox full hopped when the grab whiffed? It looks like you're setting yourself up to be able to react to a double jump to top platform.

4:57 - Was this high cross up dair on shield -> short dash away -> dash in full hop to cover full hop OOS? This also is similar to what you did vs Ken(shine -> full hop) that pressures rolls and grab OOS. A weakness of this full hop pressure seem to be that it takes some time to set up, requiring them to hold shield for a bit.

5:06 - After whiffing a jab (that you were confirming off laser startup), you short hop laser at Fox, hoping to catch a dash back, confirming during laser start up again. But you see that Fox is behind you, and then quickly dash at him and nair. Am I getting this right?

5:07 - This dash sequence looks like it also beats wd back turnaround grab OOS and wd back bair OOS but what is this intended to beat? Then this short hop laser looks like it catches dash away/roll but you confirm during start up to get this turnaround grab.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can pressure there with movement in, or laser. You could also move back if you often do that before attacking in. Or you could DJ over him if you expect FH or some Utilt/Bair.

I think it was a tech error, but yeah either that or you're right.

Fair lag probably hecked me.

I was doing that, but also getting into center.

Yeah it was. Shine FH can make for easier punishes on middleweights, so that can be a bit different in terms of intent.

Pretty much.

It was mainly a way to move back a little more it seems like(didn't slow down to see how much I may have reacted).

 

[PAWN1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls

5:23 and 5:36 - Are you waiting for a full hop approach in these positions?

5:31 - This movement post laser looks like it’s to set up for a punish on full hop. Was the laser after the movement to punish full hop drift back?

5:36 - Here you backflip, reacting to full hop in place with a dash in dash away -> set up pressure with a laser. Does this also let you react to full hop approach with up tilt?

5:39 - What was this full hop for? Setting up to be able to react and punish platform movement from top to side platform?

9:47 - You start off the game on FD with dash forward -> WD back -> dash forward laser. Is this to cover Fox yolo full hopping at you?

10:21 - why dash away -> WD away after the tech here as opposed to dash full momentum turnaround laser or extremely short dash away -> dash in -> aerial/laser?

11:02 - Are you waiting for a full hop in place/drift forward after shooting a laser on Fox’s shield in this position?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Seems like yeah in both, but for the first I may have just been generally waiting.

Yeah, maybe FH in place.

I moved out of backflip at an incorrect timing to beat FH with Utilt, but yes it can work. Backflip is pro.

I don't....know

Nah I was too far for that. I wanted to let him rush in some and I meet him with laser is probably what it was. I love WD back laser in.

So I could Utilt if he tried to FH over that laser, and Utilt would also beat SH approaches.

You can't be sure since WD back OOS is also so good, along with timing changes. But it's something to stay looking for. I was a bit far to punish it there, and Mango likely knew it.

 

[PAWN1]

I moved out of backflip at an incorrect timing to beat FH with Utilt, but yes it can work. Backflip is pro.

Just to clarify, by different timing, you mean to just wait(or walk) for a beat and then up tilt, right? From other instances, it looks like you use backflip in this position and cover full hop with bair, a dash dance to set up a threat on landing such as laser/dair, or position for an up tilt, depending on the timing of the backflip. Is this all right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhQEJ7JCsgk

0:28 - Was this extremely short dash in -> extremely short dash away -> extremely short dash in JC grab a read on Fox coming in specifically, or was it to catch anything else like just holding shield?

0:42 - What was the purpose of trying to waveland on the side platform here after confirming Fox was on the side platform?

0:45 - Short hop laser OOS with Fox in such close proximity - when is this good? It seems good for catching Fox dashing away or just waiting in place. Also, the Fox full hop nair was to catch a full hop (waveland to platform), right?

1:09 - This instant DJ was to beat Fox full hop approaching, correct?

1:26 - Why empty land from top platform here rather than get a laser/aerial out or waveland?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I would've needed to wait. And more or less, but iirc I moved some because I wasn't sure he'd FH. Mango was good at picking FH timings right as I needed to decide, instead of acting and giving me easier reactions.

It seems most likely I was covering shield.

I probably expected him to hold shield when he saw me come up, and then after I'm out of lag I could potentially shine his grab or shine oos.

Close laser beats what you said mainly yes. And also yes, but if he was a bit closer he could also have hit my SHL.

It was to cover anything OOS including FH and it also serves as a bait.

Didn't expect him to challenge landing. It's a good mixup if they respect laser/Dair.

 

[PAWN1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhQEJ7JCsgk

1:42 - Why WD back -> shine after this bair? Read on Fox holding shield?

2:03 - Is this short hop -> double laser supposed to cover short hopping off side platform and grounded movement?

2:14 - Laser -> dash jump out of the corner when you confirm Fox is on the side platform during laser. Were you trying to full hop dair/bair him?

2:28 - What does this JC shine cover here? It looks like you were pressuring Fox if he stayed on the top platform. Then follow up with DJ dair on confirming the hit?

2:30 - Were you going for full hop shine here?

2:29 / 2:36 - The laser at the platform -> drop through laser the ground is meant to cover jumps at/off of the side platform and grounded movement, right? It doesn't look like you confirm during the first laser but just confirm off the second one and go from there. If that's true, then why not confirm during the first laser?

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Hi PP long time no talk, hope you're doing well!

I strained my wrist grinding a few hours everyday back from February-May so I had to get a b0xx. I received my b0xx about a month ago and have felt that there was no real need to post questions here because I simply needed to get my execution and punish back to where it was. It still needs A LOT of improvement but after recently going to a tourney, I see that the time that I've put into the b0xx has paid off which has inspired me to train with more purpose.

Also PSA to everyone who reads this I've learned a lot about hand health and I've found that the simple things are the most important; keeping your back straight, keeping your hands aligned with your forearm (not bending your wrists at all), staying physically warm (not playing in cold environments), playing loosely with the controller, stretching, and taking intermittent breaks.

So my first question is about timing. How do you consciously and purposefully do basic timing mixups? This question stems from a piece of advice you told me a long time ago when you said to mixup only dash forward and dash back. That mixup and how I apply it has become the basis of my playstyle, of course I've branched out more into more specific dash and laser combinations but that was only possible because I had an understanding of the basics. So is there a way to define timings in a simple manner such that if I choose X timing in a certain position and it doesn't work, then I can consciously tell myself next time to choose Z timing in the same position next time in happens?

How do you prompt yourself to focus in match? I practice meditation and doing other conscious activities such as when I'm watching matches or reading. So I'm not asking how to practice returning to focus, I'm asking about how you would word it in your head (if you tell yourself consciously to focus at all??).

Lastly, are there any simple mixups or dash/laser combinations that you've been enjoying lately? I really like dash forward half dash back turn around laser, super fun to execute and presents a threat but then lasers instead while taking space.

 

[Dr Peepee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhQEJ7JCsgk

1:42 - Why WD back -> shine after this bair? Read on Fox holding shield?

2:03 - Is this short hop -> double laser supposed to cover short hopping off side platform and grounded movement?

2:14 - Laser -> dash jump out of the corner when you confirm Fox is on the side platform during laser. Were you trying to full hop dair/bair him?

2:28 - What does this JC shine cover here? It looks like you were pressuring Fox if he stayed on the top platform. Then follow up with DJ dair on confirming the hit?

2:30 - Were you going for full hop shine here?

2:29 / 2:36 - The laser at the platform -> drop through laser the ground is meant to cover jumps at/off of the side platform and grounded movement, right? It doesn't look like you confirm during the first laser but just confirm off the second one and go from there. If that's true, then why not confirm during the first laser?

Yeah, though I may have tried to shine early and just missed it. Unsure.

SH on platform and also ground, but I didn't do second one low enough.

Yeah either that or going to top platform I guess. Not entirely sure if it was a FH or not.

Wanted to commit to shine if he didn't run in, but then DJ'd away to bait. Worked a bit too well on the bait part.

Yes

I should have. But also sometimes you have to guess and drag them down or pressure if you assume you missed.

Hi PP long time no talk, hope you're doing well!

I strained my wrist grinding a few hours everyday back from February-May so I had to get a b0xx. I received my b0xx about a month ago and have felt that there was no real need to post questions here because I simply needed to get my execution and punish back to where it was. It still needs A LOT of improvement but after recently going to a tourney, I see that the time that I've put into the b0xx has paid off which has inspired me to train with more purpose.

Also PSA to everyone who reads this I've learned a lot about hand health and I've found that the simple things are the most important; keeping your back straight, keeping your hands aligned with your forearm (not bending your wrists at all), staying physically warm (not playing in cold environments), playing loosely with the controller, stretching, and taking intermittent breaks.

So my first question is about timing. How do you consciously and purposefully do basic timing mixups? This question stems from a piece of advice you told me a long time ago when you said to mixup only dash forward and dash back. That mixup and how I apply it has become the basis of my playstyle, of course I've branched out more into more specific dash and laser combinations but that was only possible because I had an understanding of the basics. So is there a way to define timings in a simple manner such that if I choose X timing in a certain position and it doesn't work, then I can consciously tell myself next time to choose Z timing in the same position next time in happens?

How do you prompt yourself to focus in match? I practice meditation and doing other conscious activities such as when I'm watching matches or reading. So I'm not asking how to practice returning to focus, I'm asking about how you would word it in your head (if you tell yourself consciously to focus at all??).

Lastly, are there any simple mixups or dash/laser combinations that you've been enjoying lately? I really like dash forward half dash back turn around laser, super fun to execute and presents a threat but then lasers instead while taking space.

Timing is more complicated than that. It could've failed because they were primed to act, because you acted at that time before, etc. Your best bet is to put these reasons together, and ultimately change.

It should be automatic from training. If you're doing friendlies and working on it, maybe use your goals to inspire you, think about what the character wants to do, or have a word that centers your emotion and focus.

I enjoy dash in, wd back laser in.

 

[Meck]

I usually have to drive an hour a day and I'm not sure how I can use that time to improve in Melee. After tournaments, I use that time to remember what I was doing wrong or what I learned. But on non-tournament days I'm not sure what to think about other than a two-minute recap of what I did that day

How do I change my neutral when Peach is holding a turnip when she is grounded or floating? I feel like I have to give her a lot more horizontal space when she's on the ground

When I play people better than me sometimes I hold back. If they play a secondary, my motivation to win drops because I feel like I am not being taken seriously. Or if my opponent tends to physically show when they are upset, I play less defensive so they don't get as mad out of fear they might not want to play friendlies with me later. How can I stop holding back from circumstances like these?

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you're able to zone out and drive alright, then visualizing various situations and imagining their possibilities, solving them, and imagining you guess wrong and have to adapt is a great thing to do. You could also imagine yourself practicing, it does help.

On the ground you can shield a turnip and be fairly safe, but if she's floating you can't do so and also can't always back up and SHL over the turnip.

When they play secondaries, you must beat them to bring out their main. Bring your competitor spirit to all of the problems really. If they get mad, you either beat them and make them play better, or salty and want to run it back with you later. If they stop trying to play you, then yeah sandbag occasionally so you can keep your practice I guess, but your default should be to push them. Be a competitor.

 

[R3_]

hey again I have a question about mentality, is there a mentality thread I could go to?

Edit: ok so I dont need to ask my question since I've figured it out now but if anyone does know of a mentality thread, it would be good to know for the future

 

[PAWN1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhQEJ7JCsgk

3:10 - Dair -> turnaround laser. I've noticed you do this sometimes and at first thought it might be a tech flub, but it seems like you actually just are confirming the spacing during the dair and go for turnaround laser when shine won't hit. Is that correct?

3:28 - Just to confirm what you were doing - you run up shield out of the corner after confirming the full hop -> confirm Fox’s position on full hop -> WD back. Why wavedash back here? It doesn't look like Fox can punish you from full hop at this spacing, so are you moving away to set up a punish on his landing?

4:28 - Was this dash away -> dash in -> short hop(ended up being a pivot short hop but I don't think that was intentional) waveland back at this spacing to beat full hop?

hey again I have a question about mentality, is there a mentality thread I could go to?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fXip_TlcbWbr5wvNngkDbqsxOl25kAcyUut-zE-MJOs/edit

 

[Dr Peepee]

I did shine before the laser and it hit shield, but I knew we'd be too far away. But yeah sometimes I do it when I'm outside shine range too.

Staying under a platform is safe vs Fox, and I don't want to get hit by/trade with descending aerial. So yeah I move away to set up laser or other pressure on his landing.

I only wavelanded back once I saw I messed up. The rest was to do an approach.

 

[R3_]

https://youtu.be/L_vsoT5XZSg?list=PLCR3KcbG-XGt1GbO15C1xiAA7o4JGxaI1&t=392

I have a question about edgeguarding Marth, here Ginger double jump refreshes the ledge twice and then Up B refreshes twice to edgehog and get the kill. He does this a bunch throughout the set and I was wondering why he decides to change refresh methods in that pattern. Does it depend on where Marth is at the time? like if he's far offstage DJ refresh is consistent and Marth's Up B isn't threatening Falco until hes able to Up B to ledge, where Ginger then chooses Up B stall bc its faster? Just wanted to know if this is correct or if I'm completely missing the point.

 

[AnonymousID]

Is there ever a use in up-b-ing below ledge (if you could have up b-d above) ? particularly against spacies.

 

[PAWN1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhQEJ7JCsgk

4:58 - What was this dash in -> dash away turnaround laser for when Fox was on the top platform? Covering Fox short hopping/dropping through the platform away from you?

5:09 - was this short hop off platform turnaround laser meant to be shot at this height? It looks like you confirm during the laser that Fox is on the platform like in an earlier situation and then roll, but is this laser meant to cover the ground, or a drop through the platform?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEsp996TGak

9:41 - You take the powershield up close and immediately short hop double jump -> laser, and it works out. Did you have a read on Fox going to side platform specifically? And if so, what makes Fox going to side platform after getting a powershield a good idea?

9:47 - Just to confirm what you were doing here - dash away WD back (confirm Fox’s position) -> WD back again (confirm Fox’s position) -> shine. Was this shine meant to cover roll or WD back OOS?

9:53 - You dash in prepared to (A)SDI down -> shine. Did you do this because you saw Fox WD back into the corner and thus set up a potential attack out of the corner?

Also, when I've asked people "When should I go for crouch cancel in neutral" they typically give me an answer like "Whenever you think you're going to get hit", but this advice is too general to be helpful in my experience. Analyzing sets carefully has helped me get an idea of how it's possible to get a hit, get hit, or change positions after doing an action, which helps me answer that question for myself more specifically and be prepared to do some kind of defensive action. But I'll ask you the general question anyways lol. When do you go for crouch cancel in neutral? And am I going about answering the question for myself the right way?

 

[flyboy__]

Is there ever a use in up-b-ing below ledge (if you could have up b-d above) ? particularly against spacies.

i feel like there isn't unless you're mixing up your opponents or are superb at teching. below the ledge is super easy for both spacies to edgeuard imo, given that your only angle mixup is going straight up or wall-riding, and either can be covered fairly easily (fox can shine a wall ride or b-air a straight up angle, while falco can cover both with a jumpoff n-air into ftilt on landing to cover both, for example). The only use for going beneath the ledge to recover is if you know your opponent is gonna go for some stupid read like go for a high nair or dair to punish your high up-b, where now that they missed you they're in a terrible position.

 

[Dr Peepee]

https://youtu.be/L_vsoT5XZSg?list=PLCR3KcbG-XGt1GbO15C1xiAA7o4JGxaI1&t=392

I have a question about edgeguarding Marth, here Ginger double jump refreshes the ledge twice and then Up B refreshes twice to edgehog and get the kill. He does this a bunch throughout the set and I was wondering why he decides to change refresh methods in that pattern. Does it depend on where Marth is at the time? like if he's far offstage DJ refresh is consistent and Marth's Up B isn't threatening Falco until hes able to Up B to ledge, where Ginger then chooses Up B stall bc its faster? Just wanted to know if this is correct or if I'm completely missing the point.

You can get hit out of DJ, but if you up-B refresh you can be safe during all of it. DJ is easier though, and also gives him a chance to change when he grabs the edge to make up-B most effective.

Is there ever a use in up-b-ing below ledge (if you could have up b-d above) ? particularly against spacies.

If you're against a wall, it could help you tech and recover. If they try to hit side Bs or something it could help as well. Vs Falco, it may be better to try and tech Dair than to worry about potentially getting Dair'd out of the air or Dsmashed etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhQEJ7JCsgk

4:58 - What was this dash in -> dash away turnaround laser for when Fox was on the top platform? Covering Fox short hopping/dropping through the platform away from you?

5:09 - was this short hop off platform turnaround laser meant to be shot at this height? It looks like you confirm during the laser that Fox is on the platform like in an earlier situation and then roll, but is this laser meant to cover the ground, or a drop through the platform?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEsp996TGak

9:41 - You take the powershield up close and immediately short hop double jump -> laser, and it works out. Did you have a read on Fox going to side platform specifically? And if so, what makes Fox going to side platform after getting a powershield a good idea?

9:47 - Just to confirm what you were doing here - dash away WD back (confirm Fox’s position) -> WD back again (confirm Fox’s position) -> shine. Was this shine meant to cover roll or WD back OOS?

9:53 - You dash in prepared to (A)SDI down -> shine. Did you do this because you saw Fox WD back into the corner and thus set up a potential attack out of the corner?

Also, when I've asked people "When should I go for crouch cancel in neutral" they typically give me an answer like "Whenever you think you're going to get hit", but this advice is too general to be helpful in my experience. Analyzing sets carefully has helped me get an idea of how it's possible to get a hit, get hit, or change positions after doing an action, which helps me answer that question for myself more specifically and be prepared to do some kind of defensive action. But I'll ask you the general question anyways lol. When do you go for crouch cancel in neutral? And am I going about answering the question for myself the right way?

Looks like I was mostly trying to cover him coming straight down on me. Nice not paying attention lol.

Yeah it was kinda wonky. I think I wanted to try and hit him in a way I could punish, so I didn't shoot him when I knew he'd be on the platform.

Once I saw aerial shine OOS and DJ back I was pretty sure he'd land on the platform. If I was wrong then he'd spend more time landing on the ground so that's fine. Armada likes platforms as Fox though.

That shine was nonsense. Probably meant to do it right beforehand(before previous WD) and just did it anyway.

Yeah it's either he does that or he FHs usually, so I felt good about that after confirming WD back.

CC in my view is best used when you can't avoid a hit another way, or to assist with option coverage. So like if you shield grab and hold down during that for example, or out of AC Bair. You can run in and do it too, but you'd only want to do that if you're fairly sure how you'll get hit and that you can get way more off of it. Taking damage is not often advised. As Falco I hold down when I shine, WD, sometimes out of laser if I don't think I can get away, and out of Bair/Utilt pretty much. Or if I approach and things don't look good.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Is lasering the only way to play grounded defense against marth sh fade forward in with fair and nair? I guess you can bair it which works okay, but at slightly further distances are you forced to either back up and laser or go in and catch their hitbox early?

Is backing up without lasering even a good response to marth fading in with sh aerials? What ideally happens afterwards? I guess you're less likely to get frame advantage off of it.

I'm asking all of this because there's a common range in the matchup that marths can do fade in nair and fair which loses to ful/half dash back laser. But then that loses to them doing dash attack instead. Of course there are many timing and minute spacing differences here but that's the general mixup I think of with that set play. So i'm wondering if there's a way to avoid the sh fade in aerials at that range without lasering in oder to stay grounded and be able to react if they dash attack in instead (or maybe even dash up then aerial but that seems like a whole other world of mixup to get into)

 

[Dr Peepee]

You could dash back SH and if you see DA you could DJ or waveland back or land shield, and if they aerial you laser. Mango likes to DJ over Marth to beat all of this but the downside is if he waits you get bopped.

The ideal if you laser Marth's approaching aerial is he shields or just guesses with a dash or Fsmash or something. You can hit or pressure both a lot of the time, plus you have dash back to observe a lot and it'll also set up other approaches.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

You could dash back SH and if you see DA you could DJ or waveland back or land shield, and if they aerial you laser. Mango likes to DJ over Marth to beat all of this but the downside is if he waits you get bopped.

The ideal if you laser Marth's approaching aerial is he shields or just guesses with a dash or Fsmash or something. You can hit or pressure both a lot of the time, plus you have dash back to observe a lot and it'll also set up other approaches.

What kind of double jump does he do? Is this a preemptive instant dj? Is he normally facing away or towards marth? Is it a defensive dj?

When can I start moving towards more complicated movement patterns? One of the most memorable things you've written to me is that there's always more deepening to be done. So I'm not sure if moving towards adding movement to my game would be helpful. So when is it necessary/helpful to add movement?

What does narration analysis serve to do?

 

[PAWN1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEsp996TGak

10:05/11:53 - What are the advantages of full hop shine -> DJ over an aerial approach? It looks fairly non commital since you get to observe their position on the DJ and go from there, though the risk of getting hit out of DJ makes this feel scary.

10:06 - Why running shine here?

10:18 - You laser -> laser again (confirm Fox’s position on side platform) -> dash in (confirm Fox just jumped) -> dash away short hop. Am I getting this sequence correctly? And is this short hop to set up for a bair on reaction to Fox coming off the side platform?

10:21 - Was this short hop OOS to dodge a potential Fox short hop up air?

11:53 - This purpose of this dash away -> dash in full hop shine after full dash away was to pressure the platform while staying safe against an immediate drop through platform aerial from Fox after he full hopped, right?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What kind of double jump does he do? Is this a preemptive instant dj? Is he normally facing away or towards marth? Is it a defensive dj?

When can I start moving towards more complicated movement patterns? One of the most memorable things you've written to me is that there's always more deepening to be done. So I'm not sure if moving towards adding movement to my game would be helpful. So when is it necessary/helpful to add movement?

What does narration analysis serve to do?

Usually facing toward, sometimes preemptive sometimes not, occasionally defensive. Just watch it.

More deepening can happen within simple movements. You can experiment whenever you feel like it, but the simple plays will carry you furthest.

Probably to help reinforce ideas you might otherwise skim with just seeing something. There are likely other benefits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEsp996TGak

10:05/11:53 - What are the advantages of full hop shine -> DJ over an aerial approach? It looks fairly non commital since you get to observe their position on the DJ and go from there, though the risk of getting hit out of DJ makes this feel scary.

10:06 - Why running shine here?

10:18 - You laser -> laser again (confirm Fox’s position on side platform) -> dash in (confirm Fox just jumped) -> dash away short hop. Am I getting this sequence correctly? And is this short hop to set up for a bair on reaction to Fox coming off the side platform?

10:21 - Was this short hop OOS to dodge a potential Fox short hop up air?

11:53 - This purpose of this dash away -> dash in full hop shine after full dash away was to pressure the platform while staying safe against an immediate drop through platform aerial from Fox after he full hopped, right?

Falco's DJ is pretty great vs himself and Fox so it's not so bad. Fox would have to read it to win, and that means waiting out an approach or backing up against it. It also helps you punish out of the shine.

I think I expected him to FH over me if I just SH'd near him or SH'd at all, so I think I just went for the mixup by running in.

Pretty much yeah.

Bit too early for that. I think it was more of a Bair setup if he FH'd into me, and otherwise a bait.

Mostly wanted to move back so he didn't immediately attack and then I'd go in since I didn't expect him to super wait I believe, so yeah more or less.