Falco Discussion Thread

Dr Peepee

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Oh then yeah FH Dair is way better against Falco.

Dair can be better if they don't tech or land on a platform, but it honestly depends.

Spotdodge can be good since you can't be hit during it and the cooldown is quick and you can do it out of many states such as shield.

I don't think I use getup attack often for serious edgeguards but I think it can be alright sometimes like if you're unsure if they'll make it up or not. If they tech in then I Fsmash or Dair or Bthrow or dash/WD shine depending on how I want to handle their DI and just generally.
 
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MambaGreenFalco MambaGreenFalco My apologies if I didn't answer the question in a satisfactory way. I was probably just kinda joking (as I do when I'm streaming), and moved onto the next thing. I do think that there are a lot of reasons to analyze my play. I think I do a lot of things that have been optimized past what other top level falcos are doing in a lot of scenarios. I am at a point where my execution on these things isn't perfect, and I don't have nearly as much game scene as some of the top top Falcos (Mango, PP, Westballz), so the quantity and quality of my openings aren't as good.

To give some specific examples:

I think I tech chase on reaction better than almost any Falco in the world right now, but I still have to incorporate more Dash SH dair to cover techs to the left and right instead of dash attacking or grabbing.

I also do a lot of throw stuff that isn't being used by other falcos. If you want further clarification on what throw stuff I'm talking about, I could go into that but it would take a bit :)

I also do some powershield stuff that none of the top falcos are doing right now like PS > shine/jab on peach aerials or PS > f tilt on a falling marth.

I also take powershielded laser > dash back/turn around up tilt which I don't see anybody else doing right now except for mango.

I do some dash JC shine stuff that nobody does rn, but this is mostly only in friendlies right now until I get more comfortable with it and are able to do it in tournament consistently.

I do consistent grounded double shine pressure that catches rolls when unstaled (not terribly common).

I do shinelands that only bones and I really incorporate into tournament play.

I can continue if you find this interesting! I hope this helps, and again I'm sorry for brushing off your question in my stream.
 

MambaGreenFalco

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MambaGreenFalco MambaGreenFalco My apologies if I didn't answer the question in a satisfactory way. I was probably just kinda joking (as I do when I'm streaming), and moved onto the next thing. I do think that there are a lot of reasons to analyze my play. I think I do a lot of things that have been optimized past what other top level falcos are doing in a lot of scenarios. I am at a point where my execution on these things isn't perfect, and I don't have nearly as much game scene as some of the top top Falcos (Mango, PP, Westballz), so the quantity and quality of my openings aren't as good.

To give some specific examples:

I think I tech chase on reaction better than almost any Falco in the world right now, but I still have to incorporate more Dash SH dair to cover techs to the left and right instead of dash attacking or grabbing.

I also do a lot of throw stuff that isn't being used by other falcos. If you want further clarification on what throw stuff I'm talking about, I could go into that but it would take a bit :)

I also do some powershield stuff that none of the top falcos are doing right now like PS > shine/jab on peach aerials or PS > f tilt on a falling marth.

I also take powershielded laser > dash back/turn around up tilt which I don't see anybody else doing right now except for mango.

I do some dash JC shine stuff that nobody does rn, but this is mostly only in friendlies right now until I get more comfortable with it and are able to do it in tournament consistently.

I do consistent grounded double shine pressure that catches rolls when unstaled (not terribly common).

I do shinelands that only bones and I really incorporate into tournament play.

I can continue if you find this interesting! I hope this helps, and again I'm sorry for brushing off your question in my stream.
Your tech chasing is actually partially why I asked you in the first place. Do you use dash sh dair to cover tech left/right on a platform? What do you think makes you better than other falcos at tech chasing? Is it because other Falco's prefer other routes of dealing with a tech situation like prioritizing center stage or mango whos tech chasing is super dynamic with his dash dancing, which I don't completely understand rn, or of course his straight up f smash reads.

I would love to hear the clarification on the throw stuff, that would be great. If it happens to acknowledge any of the following stuff that would be great as well; down throw stuff on puff at high percent, when to f throw vs up throw on non-floaties above 36% (is this too vauge of a question?), what throw to use when the opponent techs to the side of a platform and you grab them, and what throw to use when fox is below 37 and you grab him under the side platform on dreamland (I find he can a lot of the times instantly land on the dl side plat from a low percent up throw).

Do you have backup plans if you don't hit the ps in those situations where the opponent is coming down with an aerial on you?

When you take a ps laser (specifically vs marth) how far do you have to be from him in order to have enough time to turn around up tilt? (which i believe is 9 or 10 frames).

I thought your double shines on shield were more to cover grab/jump oos/peach's up b oos/ maybe some other character specific stuff?

I find this super interesting actually, I will actively look for this info the next time I analyze you. Thanks for taking the time to clarify. It's no prob that you brushed me off. I asked the question because you were talking about how much you liked to analyze Mango, so then that got me thinking of what you do better/how your style differs. I understand now that it was kind of a joke and that's how streams are but I tend to take your/kjh's answers more seriously on stream because they're more educational and informative, which is also why I keep coming back to them.
 
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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee

So I would like to ask your advice on my worst matchup right now,
FALCO

I play Jigglypuff and was wondering what should my gameplan be in this matchup? Like I get absolutely destroyed cause Falco makes me feel so constricted, the combination of lasers and shine pressure makes this matchup a living h*ll for me.

In the neutral I can't do my regular neutral (with bairs, nairs etc) cause of the constant onslaught of lasers, and then when I try and shield he gets up in my face and pressures my shield to no end (I have no idea what to do OoS in the matchup besides roll)

I know you don't play Puff, but I do know you have very high level experience in this matchup.

Thanks for reading, huge fan
 

Gibbs

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Platform tech chase question. Say you have the following scenario where falco is about to land a shine on fox.

techchasesetup.jpg

Judging by some of the prior posts here it seems like after the shine a small WD forward or WD down would put you in the optimal position to cover both hard DI in that just misses the lip of the inside platform, and hard DI away. But what is the best option to cover tech in place on the platform on slight or no DI? My gut reaction is to just FH off the initial shine and try and react to the tech option on the way down, but I think that option loses to hard DI away on the initial shine. So if you WD out of the initial shine, does that leave you only shine-waveland to cover tech in place? Is that something people do on reaction or is the shine waveland on tech in place something you can input for "free" while still covering tech rolls on reaction only.
 

MambaGreenFalco

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Platform tech chase question. Say you have the following scenario where falco is about to land a shine on fox.

View attachment 146185

Judging by some of the prior posts here it seems like after the shine a small WD forward or WD down would put you in the optimal position to cover both hard DI in that just misses the lip of the inside platform, and hard DI away. But what is the best option to cover tech in place on the platform on slight or no DI? My gut reaction is to just FH off the initial shine and try and react to the tech option on the way down, but I think that option loses to hard DI away on the initial shine. So if you WD out of the initial shine, does that leave you only shine-waveland to cover tech in place? Is that something people do on reaction or is the shine waveland on tech in place something you can input for "free" while still covering tech rolls on reaction only.
Just tried this for a few minutes at that percent with unstaled moves. I found that the best option was instant double jump. It was at the perfect height where you can easily follow their di, and then land and tech chase on the platform with shine/grab/dash attack/f smash or dair them on the way down. I found the hardest di's to catch were full in where they didn't hit the platform, but if you keep the option in mind you can drift with Falco and follow them with dair which doesn't put them into a tech chase position so it's a free shine which is nice. Also when they di full out it seems like you can still react to their recovery mixups, but I think di out is the only thing where wd out of the shine is better.
 

Dr Peepee

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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee

So I would like to ask your advice on my worst matchup right now,
FALCO

I play Jigglypuff and was wondering what should my gameplan be in this matchup? Like I get absolutely destroyed cause Falco makes me feel so constricted, the combination of lasers and shine pressure makes this matchup a living h*ll for me.

In the neutral I can't do my regular neutral (with bairs, nairs etc) cause of the constant onslaught of lasers, and then when I try and shield he gets up in my face and pressures my shield to no end (I have no idea what to do OoS in the matchup besides roll)

I know you don't play Puff, but I do know you have very high level experience in this matchup.

Thanks for reading, huge fan
Falco has a harder time attacking diagonally in front of him and upward because his laser and front facing aerials don't reach there. So if you can sneak in Nairs/Bairs/sometimes Fairs there that's a good end goal. Jumping above lasers is pretty helpful, and threatening that zone I just mentioned helps you land without there being so many lasers as Falco tries to reposition himself. You may want to practice jumping between lasers. Bones posted a good way to handle Falco pressure fairly recently so I'd check that out. Shield grab, Usmash, buffer roll, shield DI will all be helpful to you here at various times.

Hope some of that helps.

Platform tech chase question. Say you have the following scenario where falco is about to land a shine on fox.

View attachment 146185

Judging by some of the prior posts here it seems like after the shine a small WD forward or WD down would put you in the optimal position to cover both hard DI in that just misses the lip of the inside platform, and hard DI away. But what is the best option to cover tech in place on the platform on slight or no DI? My gut reaction is to just FH off the initial shine and try and react to the tech option on the way down, but I think that option loses to hard DI away on the initial shine. So if you WD out of the initial shine, does that leave you only shine-waveland to cover tech in place? Is that something people do on reaction or is the shine waveland on tech in place something you can input for "free" while still covering tech rolls on reaction only.
You have to guess their DI and either FH out of shine or WD forward. I tend to favor WD forward as it can let you react to both more often even if you can't always get a hard punish on in place then, but you can adjust with the Fox. I forget if at that particular percent you can still FH shine after WD forward or not on tech in place, but if not then yeah you'd just need to mix between the two or add in other solutions like FH WD down to help you cover them landing on the platform a little differently I suppose.
 

Gibbs

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You have to guess their DI and either FH out of shine or WD forward. I tend to favor WD forward as it can let you react to both more often even if you can't always get a hard punish on in place then, but you can adjust with the Fox. I forget if at that particular percent you can still FH shine after WD forward or not on tech in place, but if not then yeah you'd just need to mix between the two or add in other solutions like FH WD down to help you cover them landing on the platform a little differently I suppose.
Center stage on FD you can hit full DI away or in on reaction from a small WD forward right, does confirming the tech make you have to guess?
 

Dr Peepee

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On BF they don't drop all the way back down like on FD so it makes it harder to cover both, if possible. And like I said I don't remember how that exact percent unstaled shine works out, so you may be able to hit both out of smaller WD forward but it's hard to say. Confirming the tech should still be possible since to me it's reactable, so it's more about whether it's technically possible I believe.
 

Gibbs

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On BF they don't drop all the way back down like on FD so it makes it harder to cover both, if possible. And like I said I don't remember how that exact percent unstaled shine works out, so you may be able to hit both out of smaller WD forward but it's hard to say. Confirming the tech should still be possible since to me it's reactable, so it's more about whether it's technically possible I believe.
I find hard DI in or out is usually react-able during the WD out of shine. If they're super good they can di to make landing on the platform lip super ambiguous. Is anyone on that level of DI in the current meta?
 

Dr Peepee

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Not consistently in all situations, but in some situations yes and I'm sure the time will be coming where it can be fairly consistently done. Of course there can be ways to play around this DI too, but it's ultimately a pain lol.
 

MambaGreenFalco

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How do you guys deal with double laser from the edge? I feel like I either have to give up stage entirely to avoid getting punished from their double laser, and if i try to contest their double laser then they can easily ledgedash shine/uptilt or whatever. The only truly consistent answer I’ve found is to read it with cc shine, but that loses to ledgedash obviously. So are there any answers that deal with both options pretty well? Maybe stand on platforms and drop through bair?
 

Gibbs

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MambaGreenFalco MambaGreenFalco I was just working on this in 20xx, dash shield do put yourself close to the edge, then shine OOS between the first and second lasers. The timing isn't super hard and you have time to confirm it's not a ledge dash. I believe nair OOS works too, and shield grab in certain circumstances.
 
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MambaGreenFalco

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MambaGreenFalco MambaGreenFalco I was just working on this in 20xx, dash shield do put yourself close to the edge, then shine OOS between the first and second lasers. The timing isn't super hard and you have time to confirm it's not a ledge dash. I believe nair OOS works too, and shield grab in certain circumstances.
What’s the furthest distance you can be from the ledge and still nair them? What if you shield and you’re not close enough to them? Roll away? If they do ledgedash then do you just lose stage by shielding?
 

Gibbs

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MambaGreenFalco MambaGreenFalco , the nair has to be instant, so you can't be further than max range. I would say if you're out of shield grab range then you're too far. From ledgedash you can invincible turnaround grab, so with perfect reaction it should lose every time. That said you can most likely just jump away if you see the ledgedash. Reacting to your opponent during ledgedash is something I find really difficult, so even if they see the bubble, confirming the spacing on the grab isn't easy.

Ultimately the idea spacing to shield and punish lasers from ledge is so close to the lip that most ledgedashes with go past you, so in order for this to be cleanly punished they need to Land the Ledgedash with 8+ frames of invincibility, Confirm your location and shield, hit the turnaround or the dash back, hope they don't get blown up with spot dodge shine or that you just jump away or roll. I would consider this safe against 8/10 mid-level falcos.
 

Dr Peepee

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What’s the furthest distance you can be from the ledge and still nair them? What if you shield and you’re not close enough to them? Roll away? If they do ledgedash then do you just lose stage by shielding?
You can also go over it with FH/DJ and fall on them or use platforms to hit them. Depending on where their lasers are you can SH over at least one and hit them. Part of why going high is good is because it can beat double laser and be safe vs ledgedash. You can also CC a laser and Ftilt or something I believe(don't remember about non-CC atm) and that gives you more space vs ledgedash too.
 

MambaGreenFalco

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You can also go over it with FH/DJ and fall on them or use platforms to hit them. Depending on where their lasers are you can SH over at least one and hit them. Part of why going high is good is because it can beat double laser and be safe vs ledgedash. You can also CC a laser and Ftilt or something I believe(don't remember about non-CC atm) and that gives you more space vs ledgedash too.
For the most part I've been trying to use platforms and full hop to beat it. But I've been looking for more answers because it feels like you just have to guess when they're gonna do the double laser because if you wait on the platform too long they just realize what space you're trying to cover they can just ledgedash through. Although considering the fact that you can shine between the lasers falling through and guessing doesn't seem so bad anymore.

What do you think of that^^^? Am I on the right track?
 

Dr Peepee

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If they wait on the edge you can hit them, and if they edgedash then being on the platform is still good against that in many situations. I'd say you're overall on the right track and just need to play around with these new ideas more.
 

PAWN1

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Hello,

I have been having trouble at times with getting frustrated with myself during friendly sessions. I realize that there's nothing on the line (except my ego) but I still struggle with losing. I feel like I expect a lot of myself, and when I don't perform up to that standard I beat myself up. I've tried meditating in the mornings which has helped get my mindset more focused for that period of time but it hasn't transferred much to the friendlies. I've found that this frustration comes mostly from when I play friendlies to win. When I play friendlies to try to improve a certain part of my gameplay (which I try to do most of my friendly sessions), I don't expect much of myself. However, I still have issues in that case since I find myself not focusing as much soon afterwards. My punish game tends to worsen and my neutral gets sloppier. What steps should I take to resolve this?

In addition, can you help me understand this neutral position better vs Sheik? When Sheik takes a position on the side platform(red dot), I typically move to where the blue dot is outside of her run off fair range in order to punish any aerials she might come off the edge of the side platform with. However, I've noticed that some Sheiks simply hold the platform and use it as an opportunity to charge needles and gain resources. How do I keep putting pressure on Sheik while remaining relatively safe? I've tried wavelanding on the side platform and short hop lasering from there but it doesn't seem like it's the best option.

 
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Dr Peepee

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I think expecting a lot from yourself is okay, but what you tell yourself when you fail or encounter problems is the most important part. Do you think less of yourself because you struggled or didn't immediately succeed? Do you think you deserve to always immediately succeed? You need to be fair to yourself, and allow there to be time to learn and grow. I'd suggest looking into growth mindset, which states that failure is a reason to work harder instead of letting results define you. It's a change that might not sound so important, but it has very real benefits for myself and others who have adopted it. Also for playing to learn, having goals in mind of what exactly you want to practice, and then adjusting those goals during the session can keep you engaged.

For the position, you can attack from the top platform, get under with uair, FH/DJ Bair fading away to threaten and be safe, and from that last option you can begin using dash in to threaten them since you could pivot/dash back Bair out of it and this gives you a DD threat against them that can help when they try to runoff Fair or needle.
 

MambaGreenFalco

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Hey PP, what do you define as a deeper connection to the game/your character/certain tools? Is it being able to recall and verbalize strong options immediately when given a certain position/recall the properties of a tool and how it affects your opponent? Or is it more feel based? I'm still practicing dashing and lasering so I want to know how to track my progress.

I still haven't gone to a tourney in a while/can't netplay so I can't record myself and review my matches. An interesting thing I've found is to pause the video when analyzing and try to list all of the options the falco has and predict what the Falco is gonna do based on their playstyle, previous interactions, and the opponents playstyle. However, I've found it's more interesting when the Falco does an option that I didn't think of rather than when I guess correctly. I find I predict incorrectly the most with Mango, and the least with Ginger. For example in this match Mango played vs Mew2king at SnS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DlHbWZ9U5Q even the first three lasers he did confuse me. It's surprised me how much he lasered on the platform when I feel like Marth can so easily dash in and swing at him. And then when he jumps at m2k with the laser I guess that's Mango realizing that m2k isn't approaching him. This is just one example but I think the point I'm getting to is the reasons that Ginger does his options is a lot more obvious to me, while with Mango it's not always clear. I'm not sure if this means I have a lot to learn from Mango or if Mango is playing a certain way because he knows m2k so well or maybe because he's just playing by feel (which I realize is a super vague term but I'm not entirely sure what I'm trying to get at by saying that).

edit: might as well include another example, a 0:49 mango approaches m2k while m2k is in the air, in this position I think it's way better to use an aerial rather than a laser when approaching because it can trade or beat marth's aerials. But Mango uses a laser which feels good to me but nair/dair seem better in theory.

I think to sum it up the options Mango does feel more intuitive when I watch in real time to me but when I analyze each of the them individually they don't really follow my ideas of how Falco should be played all too well. Is this a sentiment that you share to any capacity? Not really sure if you can respond that well to this but it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately and wanted to share.
 
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Meck

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Hi Dr Peepee Dr Peepee
I have been playing this platform heavy Fox player. At low percents, he is mostly jumping from platform to platform. I tried to go to the side of stage, jump, and shoot him with lasers. He either stays put or he tries to kill me because I have myself cornered. Other times I like to double jump to the top platform and I would only get a stray bair. Other times I jump to the top platform while he is on the side platform so he would come approach. Then he goes to the ground and then I have a hard time getting down. I am not sure what I should be doing because he racks more percent on me than I do on him.
 

Dr Peepee

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Hey PP, what do you define as a deeper connection to the game/your character/certain tools? Is it being able to recall and verbalize strong options immediately when given a certain position/recall the properties of a tool and how it affects your opponent? Or is it more feel based? I'm still practicing dashing and lasering so I want to know how to track my progress.

I still haven't gone to a tourney in a while/can't netplay so I can't record myself and review my matches. An interesting thing I've found is to pause the video when analyzing and try to list all of the options the falco has and predict what the Falco is gonna do based on their playstyle, previous interactions, and the opponents playstyle. However, I've found it's more interesting when the Falco does an option that I didn't think of rather than when I guess correctly. I find I predict incorrectly the most with Mango, and the least with Ginger. For example in this match Mango played vs Mew2king at SnS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DlHbWZ9U5Q even the first three lasers he did confuse me. It's surprised me how much he lasered on the platform when I feel like Marth can so easily dash in and swing at him. And then when he jumps at m2k with the laser I guess that's Mango realizing that m2k isn't approaching him. This is just one example but I think the point I'm getting to is the reasons that Ginger does his options is a lot more obvious to me, while with Mango it's not always clear. I'm not sure if this means I have a lot to learn from Mango or if Mango is playing a certain way because he knows m2k so well or maybe because he's just playing by feel (which I realize is a super vague term but I'm not entirely sure what I'm trying to get at by saying that).

edit: might as well include another example, a 0:49 mango approaches m2k while m2k is in the air, in this position I think it's way better to use an aerial rather than a laser when approaching because it can trade or beat marth's aerials. But Mango uses a laser which feels good to me but nair/dair seem better in theory.

I think to sum it up the options Mango does feel more intuitive when I watch in real time to me but when I analyze each of the them individually they don't really follow my ideas of how Falco should be played all too well. Is this a sentiment that you share to any capacity? Not really sure if you can respond that well to this but it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately and wanted to share.
A deeper connection is a feeling brought on as conscious information becomes subconscious. It is intuitively understanding your tools.

I don't always like what Mango does since I think he goes in just because he feels like it even when he doesn't necessarily think it's a good idea, but there is a lot to learn from him in regards to punish and pressure especially. Your analysis is good, and you'll get much closer to the truth with him and others if you keep looking at individual interactions the way you do.

Hi Dr Peepee Dr Peepee
I have been playing this platform heavy Fox player. At low percents, he is mostly jumping from platform to platform. I tried to go to the side of stage, jump, and shoot him with lasers. He either stays put or he tries to kill me because I have myself cornered. Other times I like to double jump to the top platform and I would only get a stray bair. Other times I jump to the top platform while he is on the side platform so he would come approach. Then he goes to the ground and then I have a hard time getting down. I am not sure what I should be doing because he racks more percent on me than I do on him.
You can snipe him with FH shine sometimes, but if he's at low percent you'll be settling for mostly stray Bairs if you can't hit the shines. I guess you could also settle for pressure or position too. Anyway, getting Bairs is pretty good since it can discourage them from playing the platform game if they keep taking the Bairs but getting nothing in return, and the Bairs can often give you better stage control too. Going to the top platform isn't too bad, and you need to remember you can shield drop as well as use your own Dair/Bair to threaten Fox who wants to hit you. Don't try to come down immediately, you can fight up high as well.

If you want me to be more specific, I'll need to know exactly how they use the platforms including what positions they like.
 

MambaGreenFalco

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A deeper connection is a feeling brought on as conscious information becomes subconscious. It is intuitively understanding your tools.

I don't always like what Mango does since I think he goes in just because he feels like it even when he doesn't necessarily think it's a good idea, but there is a lot to learn from him in regards to punish and pressure especially. Your analysis is good, and you'll get much closer to the truth with him and others if you keep looking at individual interactions the way you do.
So how do I know when I’ve started or have gotten to the next level of intuitively understanding my tools?

How do you tech chase ffs on platforms? I’m thinking of the position after you dair then and you fall and land on the platform right after them while they’re at mid percent. I know there's a lot of mixups with shield and shield drop to cover multiple tech options including tech in place and no tech which I've seen Mango do the most, and there seems to be a lot to explain there and I can explore that on my own so you don't have to address that if you don't want to, (although I am curious if you have anything to say about the topic!) I'm more wondering about when they tech to the right/left and they DI out. If I dash attack or up smash there doesn't seem to be a follow up. And you can't get a true follow up off of any of Falco's throws. I've found the only consistent option is to shine them and then waveland on the top plat but that only happens if they tech inwards on the side plat. It seems like forward smash is the only good way to punish di out because it gets roughly as much damage as two normal combo moves (especially if those moves are staled) and they fly off the stage.

My fox main friend and I have always struggled to come up with a gameplan on Yoshi's. Today through some netplay doubles we thought it might be effective for the Falco to control the center with his strong full hop and aerial priority, while the Fox plays a more horizontal game controlling the ground and the side platforms. What do you think of this? How did you play on YS with LoZR?

When edgeguarding a Fox who's up bing up a wall can you use d smash to mix up their tech timing instead of sh dair?

In this set you played against m2k at apex, I feel like you used a few specific shines super well, but I'm not exactly sure what factors contributed to your shines being effective, (if they did reach the intention you were trying to accomplish with them).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZKx_VtnrHc you shine at 3:26 3:55 4:15 (pretty obvious why this one worked) I think the reason I was interested in them is because the one at 3:26 left you with stage control, while the one at 3:55 got you the opening. But with both you used an empty hop to get in on m2k in the first place. So what made these shines effective?
 

Dr Peepee

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You'll feel it and/or play like it.

I like Fsmash and Dsmash if they are toward the edge. Teching in it can be pretty funny/strong to hit with the inner Fsmash hit, but mixing that with Bthrow and shine and runoff/jump off Bair can be pretty good. Definitely will depend on stage and percent though. So if it's on YS at mid percent I might just Fsmash them going in even if they hold in since they will still get to a position where they'd have to use their DJ and I could Bair them most likely.

LoZR and I always let me control things and let him come in for punishes either when he was on the ground or in the air behind me. I have come to think that strategy helps make use of Falco's control but mitigating his slower speed by letting him be primarily involved. Also helps keep Fox from getting shot. As for specifics beyond that, we never worked on them.

Dsmash I'd only use if they were going to go above the edge so they couldn't tech(or at least weren't likely to). So yeah you could mix that.

3:26 he's in lag

3:55 he's in lag

4:15 forced him to aerial by faking my jump at him, then punished his landing lag
 

X WaNtEd X

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For the last few months I've been grinding out Falco tech and have come to a point where I feel as if my priority should now be shifted back to the basics, particularly platform movement. But with limited time to practice every day, I feel as if I need to develop an efficient movement routine that won't reinforce any bad habits.

I've noticed that you, Dr Peepee Dr Peepee have movement that's superficially simplistic but layered in the ability to give you options. So my question is how did you go about choosing what to prioritize practicing?
 

Dr Peepee

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I would practice WDs only, going one way then backward, then turning around. Making sure I can vary my WD length well and not miss WDs or I have to start over. Then I'd move on to all kinds of lasers such as laser in place various heights, reverse laser, dash jump FF laser, then complicate with dashes such as with dash laser in place or dash back reverse laser, adding WD, then adding stuff to cover lasers such as laser in place turnaround Utilt or fadeaway Bair, etc....you can get a lot out of practice with just these kinds of starting points. It's deeper than it can seem at first glance.
 

Bones0

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For the last few months I've been grinding out Falco tech and have come to a point where I feel as if my priority should now be shifted back to the basics, particularly platform movement. But with limited time to practice every day, I feel as if I need to develop an efficient movement routine that won't reinforce any bad habits.

I've noticed that you, Dr Peepee Dr Peepee have movement that's superficially simplistic but layered in the ability to give you options. So my question is how did you go about choosing what to prioritize practicing?
Don't practice movement in the form of routines. If you just practice the same movement sequence over and over, you will only feel comfortable doing that one sequence and this can build very bad habits where you're almost addicted to picking a certain option. If you want to practice tech skill, you should be practicing a decently wide variation of whatever it is. So for platform movement, don't just sit on Battlefield and jump WL off the side plat a million times. Practice jumping and wavelanding at a variety of timings, spacings, angles, etc. Practice on other stages so you get used to the different plat heights. If you struggle with a specific action, grind it until you're relatively consistent, then move on. You don't need to be perfect at one specific thing right away. It's better to have well rounded tech skill that gives you a solid foundation for future improvement.
 

X WaNtEd X

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Don't practice movement in the form of routines. If you just practice the same movement sequence over and over, you will only feel comfortable doing that one sequence and this can build very bad habits where you're almost addicted to picking a certain option. If you want to practice tech skill, you should be practicing a decently wide variation of whatever it is. So for platform movement, don't just sit on Battlefield and jump WL off the side plat a million times. Practice jumping and wavelanding at a variety of timings, spacings, angles, etc. Practice on other stages so you get used to the different plat heights. If you struggle with a specific action, grind it until you're relatively consistent, then move on. You don't need to be perfect at one specific thing right away. It's better to have well rounded tech skill that gives you a solid foundation for future improvement.

Thanks. I will keep this in mind. I think I'll work a couple stages a day and rotate them every day to keep me sharp. I'm just sick of missing wavelands or fall throughs that would normally have been safe that turn into 50% out of nowhere. It's really hurting my Marth matchup in particular.
 
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what are your guys' thoughts on reaction tech chasing with Falco? I've always had a pretty iffy punish game, but since i've been going for reactions more instead of reads it feels more consistent. My main problems are I don't know all of my options in all tech situations so i just go for something easy like dash attack, or I don't think about what the more optimal punish option is. This basically makes my combos more consistent, but they don't seem very good still. Should i start going for more reads and ditch the reaction tech chasing for the most part, or do i just need to lab and practice reacting more?
 

Bones0

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what are your guys' thoughts on reaction tech chasing with Falco? I've always had a pretty iffy punish game, but since i've been going for reactions more instead of reads it feels more consistent. My main problems are I don't know all of my options in all tech situations so i just go for something easy like dash attack, or I don't think about what the more optimal punish option is. This basically makes my combos more consistent, but they don't seem very good still. Should i start going for more reads and ditch the reaction tech chasing for the most part, or do i just need to lab and practice reacting more?
Falco's reaction tech chasing is really limited because he's so slow. On wide open stage, you can only really tech chase Fox's rolls on reaction. For everyone you can at least get used to reacting to tech in place/missed tech, and then if they tech roll chase them with a laser to keep them pinned down. If you knock them down on a platform or near a ledge where their tech rolls are cut short, you can tech chase in those situations. Dair is generally a good option, but dash attack can be easier to do, and then you also have other tools like CCing get up attacks to fsmash. Be especially mindful of where you are landing on platforms in relation to their tech landing. You typically want to land close enough to shine/utilt/dsmash tech in place/missed tech and then be prepared to fsmash the tech rolls, but it will vary by percent.
 

Yort

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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee

https://youtu.be/xwZKE56cSdM?t=74

What option do you think would have been best after I get this laser on falcon when i'm cornered and he is at 23%?
I'm thinking laser in place, to stuff him for possibly jabbing / lock him further away if he chooses to dash back (which he did).

I did, dash forward, dash back, laser in place, which hits him after his dash back > dash forward sh, do you think this didn't make much sense in this position when i'm at higher percent and cornered vs a falcon at lower percent?
How do you think I could have made a better decision here if it's not good?

In this same clip, what do you think the best way to deal with falcons who take laser and double jump backwards to pressure with falling up air / falling empty land?

I'm thinking dash back > approaching laser at a timing to dodge the up air hit box, here I did approaching aerial and got hit by his up air.

When I hit people out of the air with laser and i'm close enough, can I aerial them out of the air with instant laser > aerial before they can dj away?

https://youtu.be/xwZKE56cSdM?t=204

In this clip, after i did dash back > laser in place into slight laser forward, i got hit by his nair oos when I tried to do dash back > laser in.

What do you think a better decision could have been?

I'm thinking I could have confirmed the shield during my dash back after the slight laser forward, and instead done a dash back > laser in place to hit him in the air for nairing / laser his wd back or forward if he decided to do that, that OR i could wait for a bit longer with one more dash and then try to dair him for his nair.

Do you have any advice for dealing with falcons who do take laser on shield > nair oos?
I was doing laser forward > dash back > nair / dair in to try and beat the nair oos, as I was playing wizzy for hours before this and he makes it a staple, but because nair hangs out for so long I was still getting hit so think wasn't a good solution I don't think. Although in this clip vs n0ne I did approaching laser which I don't think makes much sense unless I hard read the wavedash back oos.

https://youtu.be/xwZKE56cSdM?t=207
What do you think I should have done after I lasered him out of his nair so close to me in this clip? I am thinking dash attack / nair in. I just do not think I am good at reacting to the fact that I lasered them out of the nair and then capitalizing, I often get scared and back up.


https://youtu.be/xwZKE56cSdM?t=291
Do you think I could have confirmed the fact that he whiffed bair here during my dash back and gone for a higher reward punish such as dair in / approaching laser in rather than just a laser in place? Do you think this is an example of not taking free openings?


https://youtu.be/xwZKE56cSdM?t=84
What do you think I could have done after this nair? I find myself doing nairs at 30-50% and shining afterwards even though shine won't connect. Do you recommend something like nair > jab > grab (i've seen you do this ) or nair > dash attack or maybe not even going for nair in this spot in the first place?
 
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Dr Peepee

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First situation, I think it worked out alright. I probably would have done dash forward laser in place since I think many Falcons may dash back to keep me cornered and you had pretty good advantage at that space where the laser hit. It's possible you could have pressed harder to win more stage there. Your solution ended up being more defensive/patient in nature since you caught him coming back in after you had done two slower dashes, but this isn't necessarily bad it's just how it is. Another solution to me would've been to dash back first so he might not move away then come in slightly hard with laser to get close, or even full commit laser/aerial depending on info.

For the DJ, you shouldn't have dashed back unless you wanted to pressure his landing as well. If you had went straight in after laser you'd have hit him there. If you do confirm his DJ or suspect he will do it, you can play around this by slight lasering forward to pressure landing or bait the DJ, and then you can either aerial his landing or laser it again there, which still can get you a good situation.

Second situation, looks like your Nair didn't come out in time so it lost, but there are other solutions. You could have went for grab/pressure straight out of the laser landing instead of dashing back. I think Dair does better than Nair against Falcon Nair at that spacing, but I might be wrong about that. I'd test those things out anyway. Your other solutions I was thinking of as well. You could also turn around after the laser hits and SH/wait and that will let you Bair or Utilt his Nair, and if you drift in with SH you can pressure as well. But yeah if they're confirming your dash back before doing the Nair, then you want to find other solutions if you want an outright hit.

Third, well laser didn't look like it was supposed to hit when I did frame by frame lol. So if you get surprised and turned around you could get AC Bair, mayybe dash Nair if you're fast. Dash Nair is good, walk shine maybe...I think that's about it? Oh your dash attack comment is good. If he was at knockdown percent or higher you could favor Bair more but as it is you still want to combo. If he does hold down on the Nair then he still goes pretty far and isn't in a great position so I'd still take that.

I'd like to take a moment to point out so far that you've lost a fair amount of opportunities by always dashing back out of laser. This will only get you more blown up over time and I recommend working on it, especially if it's related to fear as you mention in the last point.

Fourth, yeah you could've punished that but I think in your mind you had already committed to the laser. Confirm out of dash back. Also remember, just because he can technically do an option to beat what you do, doesn't mean he will. You can manipulate things.

Fifth, yeah you're pretty much right. You did laser him out of the air at close range again and dash back though =p
Anyway, since he dashed away you could have also Dair'd him. You have some time to confirm what's going on after you Nair, so don't auto-commit to the shine. Sometimes just beating into your head you shouldn't always shine after an aerial or always dash back after a laser is what you really need. Then consider what you should do instead. By the way, this applies fairly well to pressure too, and it's part of why Mango is so good at it.
 

Yort

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First situation, I think it worked out alright. I probably would have done dash forward laser in place since I think many Falcons may dash back to keep me cornered and you had pretty good advantage at that space where the laser hit. It's possible you could have pressed harder to win more stage there. Your solution ended up being more defensive/patient in nature since you caught him coming back in after you had done two slower dashes, but this isn't necessarily bad it's just how it is. Another solution to me would've been to dash back first so he might not move away then come in slightly hard with laser to get close, or even full commit laser/aerial depending on info.

For the DJ, you shouldn't have dashed back unless you wanted to pressure his landing as well. If you had went straight in after laser you'd have hit him there. If you do confirm his DJ or suspect he will do it, you can play around this by slight lasering forward to pressure landing or bait the DJ, and then you can either aerial his landing or laser it again there, which still can get you a good situation.

Second situation, looks like your Nair didn't come out in time so it lost, but there are other solutions. You could have went for grab/pressure straight out of the laser landing instead of dashing back. I think Dair does better than Nair against Falcon Nair at that spacing, but I might be wrong about that. I'd test those things out anyway. Your other solutions I was thinking of as well. You could also turn around after the laser hits and SH/wait and that will let you Bair or Utilt his Nair, and if you drift in with SH you can pressure as well. But yeah if they're confirming your dash back before doing the Nair, then you want to find other solutions if you want an outright hit.

Third, well laser didn't look like it was supposed to hit when I did frame by frame lol. So if you get surprised and turned around you could get AC Bair, mayybe dash Nair if you're fast. Dash Nair is good, walk shine maybe...I think that's about it? Oh your dash attack comment is good. If he was at knockdown percent or higher you could favor Bair more but as it is you still want to combo. If he does hold down on the Nair then he still goes pretty far and isn't in a great position so I'd still take that.

I'd like to take a moment to point out so far that you've lost a fair amount of opportunities by always dashing back out of laser. This will only get you more blown up over time and I recommend working on it, especially if it's related to fear as you mention in the last point.

Fourth, yeah you could've punished that but I think in your mind you had already committed to the laser. Confirm out of dash back. Also remember, just because he can technically do an option to beat what you do, doesn't mean he will. You can manipulate things.

Fifth, yeah you're pretty much right. You did laser him out of the air at close range again and dash back though =p
Anyway, since he dashed away you could have also Dair'd him. You have some time to confirm what's going on after you Nair, so don't auto-commit to the shine. Sometimes just beating into your head you shouldn't always shine after an aerial or always dash back after a laser is what you really need. Then consider what you should do instead. By the way, this applies fairly well to pressure too, and it's part of why Mango is so good at it.
"Fourth, yeah you could've punished that but I think in your mind you had already committed to the laser"

I think I do this ALOT and it bothers me and I get frustrated. I find myself picking the option i'm going to do next after a laser before I even finish the first laser, so i'm already committing to my next mix up instead of confirming out of dash back. Is this just not using the decision point in my set up properly? I feel like i'm not practicing making decisions out of dash back as consciously as we've talked about. Would this also be an example of not making decisions fast enough? Sami always tells me I don't make decisions fast enough. I think i'm just making decisions too pre emptively and I need to pick based on what just happened more often.

With the fifth situation, was that dash back bad like the others were? I don't think I had time to confirm hitting his jump with the approaching laser unless I did the dash back in the first place. I was trying to do this dash back after approaching laser in friendlies to beat them jabbing after approaching laser, although I think I should have taken previous info and realized he wasn't going to jab that quickly after a dash back.
Also, I think I was so close after the approaching laser that my aerial would beat the jab regardless, do you think this is true?

Also, in the fifth situation after the approaching laser, would this be a good spot to jab as I hit his dash back but i'm out of range to shine? Or would you opt to aerial here?
I'm thinking a fast slight approaching dair right after the approaching laser would have been best.


edit:
boy I am doing dash back almost every time out of laser. I knew I did this often but not as much as I thought, thanks for pointing this out.

Do you think i'm sacrificing advantage often by doing this too much?
 
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Dr Peepee

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That's right, you're not using the decision point because you've ignored it. You will need to slow down before speeding up, where you stop and confirm and then go again. Eventually, it will speed up. This is why I say to reduce complexity and do simple mixups so you make exactly what you want to happen occur. If you do it right, your simple stuff will have more depth than doing lots of things. You'll sometimes be a bit slower than someone who is just guessing/reading what's going to happen, but that tradeoff is well worth it to understand/manipulate what's going on to me. But if you're being told you're slow right now, chances are you're already trying to incorporate a lot. Don't worry about being slow so much as getting hits and openings that make sense. You'll build speed with practice and understanding. Simplicity.

I don't like that dash back no matter what. You committed to a deep laser on him and landed close to him. You may not always be able to react to him being hit out of the air, but you're pretty much committing to pressure at minimum at that point. Walk shine or something else is very possible since you're moving forward anyway. Oh the jab I see. Yeah that might have been harder to beat if you didn't walk shine or something then, but again you're committing to winning and pressuring the situation with that laser. If you want to avoid the jabs, either get in deep with laser like this or space around it with a different laser. It's also worth considering when they jab when you're close and when they don't. I'm not sure about aerial beating jab here, I've never tested it.

Do you mean after you dash back? That laser is pretty risky since you just went in with a super deep laser, but if you pull it off then sure that or shine/walk shine or JC shine or grab or something can be good. Aerial(Dair/Nair) is probably better though, since crossing up Falcon is still great and won't corner you here or anything. If Falcon did shield because he suspected aerial though, then you'd want to pressure or grab instead. Aerial covers more stuff more safely here so I do think it's generally the best recommendation.
 

Bones0

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At my last tournament, I attempted to react continuously while playing instead of taking the game one decision at a time. This is kind of scary for me because I like to think out my option/gameplan as I execute it, but ultimately, I think this approach to thinking about the game isn't feasible because you take too long and are too locked in to each distinct decision. When I tried to turn off the inner dialogue/decision making part of my brain, I actually made quite a few unique movements/decisions that I normally never would have considered, and I was able to move much more quickly and fluidly overall. The only problem I had with this mental approach was that when I started losing and I couldn't pin down exactly why, I automatically shifted back into analytical inner dialogue mode where I was making one decision at a time.

Maybe I just didn't have the game knowledge to win that set regardless of how I was thinking and I just need to prepare a better strategy. It's hard to say. One of the most frustrating things about trying to improve primarily by studying matches and theory crafting is I cannot tell how top players are thinking of their gameplay even if it's clear what they are doing. One specific example is Mango's usage of approaching shield. I have known he does it for a long time, but I could never pin down the rhyme or reason so it made it very difficult to apply in my own game. Then I heard a clip of him doing a sort of self-commentary where he ran up and shielded and he said "take away the dash attack [from Peach]", and it suddenly clicked that he thought of the shield as a way of limiting the opponent's possible options, not just a way of protecting himself based on a prediction about what they would do.

I think this issue of interpretation of gameplay is an issue for me because I am naturally a verbal/linguistic learner, and I think very few top players are this way. Most top players seem to interpret the game and convey it to others primarily through visual/spatial means, or maybe even with a physical/kinesthetic element. Even the top players that write a lot seem to focus on explaining spatial aspects of the game, which I guess makes sense given how important positioning and spacing obviously are in Melee.
 

Dr Peepee

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I didn't see a question there so I'm not sure if you're mostly venting or something, but I should at least respond to the initial part and say that it's possible to get a solution that is at least something of a middle ground. I trained my memory to make this happen. What I did was pause the game every time I got hit so I could remember what hit me. Then I would push the memory farther and remember on the respawn platform what happened last stock. I'd bunch it together between games then. Part of the solution was to reduce tension while playing so I could easily observe what was going on. Part was simplifying my game and practicing it a lot so I would be observing my opponent and not be occupied with inputs. Part was just playing to learn so I'd also have that memory habit built in easier. Then when I played seriously, without thinking, I could add these skills in.

To back up slightly, I also used to think constantly while playing even as a top player, but I decided to go the other way. It's easily worth it and you can adapt wayyy better the new way.
 

Gibbs

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At my last tournament, I attempted to react continuously while playing instead of taking the game one decision at a time. This is kind of scary for me because I like to think out my option/gameplan as I execute it, but ultimately, I think this approach to thinking about the game isn't feasible because you take too long and are too locked in to each distinct decision. When I tried to turn off the inner dialogue/decision making part of my brain, I actually made quite a few unique movements/decisions that I normally never would have considered, and I was able to move much more quickly and fluidly overall. The only problem I had with this mental approach was that when I started losing and I couldn't pin down exactly why, I automatically shifted back into analytical inner dialogue mode where I was making one decision at a time.

Maybe I just didn't have the game knowledge to win that set regardless of how I was thinking and I just need to prepare a better strategy. It's hard to say. One of the most frustrating things about trying to improve primarily by studying matches and theory crafting is I cannot tell how top players are thinking of their gameplay even if it's clear what they are doing. One specific example is Mango's usage of approaching shield. I have known he does it for a long time, but I could never pin down the rhyme or reason so it made it very difficult to apply in my own game. Then I heard a clip of him doing a sort of self-commentary where he ran up and shielded and he said "take away the dash attack [from Peach]", and it suddenly clicked that he thought of the shield as a way of limiting the opponent's possible options, not just a way of protecting himself based on a prediction about what they would do.

I think this issue of interpretation of gameplay is an issue for me because I am naturally a verbal/linguistic learner, and I think very few top players are this way. Most top players seem to interpret the game and convey it to others primarily through visual/spatial means, or maybe even with a physical/kinesthetic element. Even the top players that write a lot seem to focus on explaining spatial aspects of the game, which I guess makes sense given how important positioning and spacing obviously are in Melee.
I think conscious attention is kind of like internet bandwidth, there is only so much useful information throughput possible before you start missing stuff. I think actual internal vocalization during a match should be kept to a minimum, simply because it takes up to much of this limited resource. MU gameplans, punish trees, timing and tech mixup patterns, all need to be executed and internalized at a level below conscious thought.

One idea I've been toying with is how to use 'code words' in order to prime or reorient my play in the fewest words possible. One thing you hear a lot of is people referring to spacies as "side-b-ers" or "up-b-ers". Noticing that in match making that judgement of 'this guy is a side-b-er' is something that can drastically change how you edgegaurd, but you don't have to consciously think about how edge-gaurd a side-b-er. The execution, positioning and timings of how to enact this gameplan info should already be in your hands before you sit down. I think this is one of the most important ways to use vocalized conscious thought in a match, and I think you can actually develop MU gameplans around these principles.

I have one other comment on your post. You talk a lot about the why, how, and reason when looking at a micro situation and also mention positional reasoning a lot. Don't neglect the 'when' aspect of analysis in Melee. So much of this game is about pattern recognition and internalized rhythms. It's easy to lose track of that when watching VoDs in super slow mo or working out your punish game frame by frame. Thinking in terms of frequency, flow and feeling/hitting beats within the game can change what you look for in your opponent and how you think of your own game-plans.
 

PAWN1

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That's right, you're not using the decision point because you've ignored it. You will need to slow down before speeding up, where you stop and confirm and then go again. Eventually, it will speed up. This is why I say to reduce complexity and do simple mixups so you make exactly what you want to happen occur. If you do it right, your simple stuff will have more depth than doing lots of things. You'll sometimes be a bit slower than someone who is just guessing/reading what's going to happen, but that tradeoff is well worth it to understand/manipulate what's going on to me. But if you're being told you're slow right now, chances are you're already trying to incorporate a lot. Don't worry about being slow so much as getting hits and openings that make sense. You'll build speed with practice and understanding. Simplicity.
To piggyback off of this, I've been told that I have been slow between and after my lasers. So I've added specifically practicing dashing forwards or backwards after a short hop laser to speed up and reduce the amount of time I'm standing there doing nothing after landing lag to my routine. Should I be working towards reacting/confirming my opponent's position as the laser comes out, or some other time? It seems like reacting after I land from a short hop laser results in being too slow on the uptake against more experienced opponents that I'm trying to reach right now.
 
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