Expulsion in public schools?

[SOVAman]

Should they really expel students in schools for things like drugs, fights and sexual abuse/assaults. I don't think that they should just expel students for reasons like the ones I listed. Instead they should give them consoling or help. For example if a student was to have drugs in school to sell or use how does an expulsion help them stop using/selling drugs. If they get expelled they get sent to a new school and what stops them from doing the same there? Instead if they were to try to get them to stop using drugs through consoling or a long class on the effect of drugs. They still may not stop but I think it would be more effective then an expulsion. What do you guys think on this topic?

 

[Vorguen]

I understand why schools do it. If they kept people who were disturbing the rules of the school as much as these guys around, parents would not want their children attending that school at all. By kicking them out, they are keeping their school safer. Not that it is correct, but it is why they do it. I do agree though, students should be given help before they are expelled. If they continue with these actions even after they are put through counselling, they should definitely be out. This is all to the discretions of each individual school anyway, and they have military school for the lost causes.

 

[SOVAman]

I agree if they do receive counseling and keep breaking the rules, then yes they should be expelled, but they should defiantly be given a second chance with counseling or extra help/mentoring. That would at least give them a chance to change there ways instead of getting moved to a different school to do the same thing there.

 

[.Marik]

Students should be getting help. Because once expelled, the future of that child isn't going to be a... very profitable or rewarding one. They are basically screwed.

Some children deal drugs so they can eat. So their alchoholic parents can eat. So their baby brothers/sisters can eat. Not because they want to cause trouble, but because they have no other choice.

I mean, they're only kids. Children are innocent. Something is making them act that particular way, and I'd just wish the School Board would try to address these issues before expelling their students.

 

[karthik_king]

Address the issue don't mask the issue is what I always say. By expelling them they are truly damaging that kid. Chances are there are reasons why that said person is doing the thing they are doing. You need to give them some support not kick them while they are down. Honestly expelling should be reserved for much more serious things

 

[SOVAman]

I agree with all of you, once you are expelled your life is not going to be easy. It will be hard to get a decent job or live a normal life. Because once you apply for a job or anything that has a background check they know you have been expelled. That alone greatly lowers your chances of getting that job. But, I don't think that the place you are applying for a job for should just decline you because of an expulsion that may have happened a long time ago. Because they don't know if you have changed your ways or if it was a major or minor crime.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Personally I think that the schools expel them as a way to just eliminate their problems once and for all, as counseling wouldn't necessarily help either, and if they did console them they would still be in the school. Also, these kids are disturbing the peace of the school by committing crimes. They could be dragging more people down with them, making more trouble for the school, so by expelling them not only do they get rid of the instigator they also get rid of any potential candidates for committing crimes at school in the future. In the OP you mention that expelling the kid won't stop them from committing crime at the next school they go to, but it definitely sends a message to them saying "Look, we can't stop you from doing this, but if you do continue doing things like this, it will mess up your future, so just know this before making decisions next time."


@ Whoever said "kids are innocent" that's definitely not true. Kids are innocent for doing crack at school? Kids are innocent for being involved in gang violence? Kids are innocent for underage drinking? Just because someone is a kid doesn't mean they're innocent, not by a long shot. If that were true, then Juvy wouldn't be necessary.

 

[DFat2]

@ Whoever said "kids are innocent" that's definitely not true. Kids are innocent for doing crack at school? Kids are innocent for being involved in gang violence? Kids are innocent for underage drinking? Just because someone is a kid doesn't mean they're innocent, not by a long shot. If that were true, then Juvy wouldn't be necessary.

True.

Expelling is necessary. Of course, it should be a last option if everything else fails.

 

[.Marik]

@ Whoever said "kids are innocent" that's definitely not true. Kids are innocent for doing crack at school? Kids are innocent for being involved in gang violence? Kids are innocent for underage drinking? Just because someone is a kid doesn't mean they're innocent, not by a long shot. If that were true, then Juvy wouldn't be necessary.

Are you serious? You actually think children are corrupted?

Honestly, what is wrong with you? Have you ever been in tough situations whatsoever? Children act a certain way because of negative role-models and backgrounds. They learn from what is around them, on a daily routine.

As I mentioned above, certain circumstances make children do a particular illegal activity, such as drug dealing. One reason would be so they can feed their families. Most children who do such activities, are from extremely dysfunctional and abusive families. They have no choice. They can't go to school, because they need to work, or their parents don't support it nor care for them. So they drop out. They might've acted irrationally, and are now expelled. But is it their fault? No, it isn't. Negative environments are partly responsible.

Compare this. Children who come from wealthy, prominent families are most likely going to behave in a manner that is accepted by mainstream society, whereas a child that gets abused and neglected, is going to act in a manner that society looks down upon.

Children are different, in a way. They aren't fully corrupted. They can still be changed, which is why immediate counselling is of utmost importance. If you just expel a youth who made a mistake, you're basically washing your hands of them, as if they were filth not worth your attention. And in doing so, those children are most likely doomed to lead a dangerous, and destructive life.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Are you serious? You actually think children are corrupted?

Honestly, what is wrong with you? Have you ever been in tough situations whatsoever? Children act a certain way because of negative role-models and backgrounds. They learn from what is around them, on a daily routine.

As I mentioned above, certain circumstances make children do a particular illegal activity, such as drug dealing. One reason would be so they can feed their families. Most children who do such activities, are from extremely dysfunctional and abusive families. They have no choice. They can't go to school, because they need to work, or their parents don't support it nor care for them. So they drop out. They might've acted irrationally, and are now expelled. But is it their fault? No, it isn't. Negative environments are partly responsible.

Compare this. Children who come from wealthy, prominent families are most likely going to behave in a manner that is accepted by mainstream society, whereas a child that gets abused and neglected, is going to act in a manner that society looks down upon.

Children are different, in a way. They aren't fully corrupted. They can still be changed, which is why immediate counselling is of utmost importance. If you just expel a youth who made a mistake, you're basically washing your hands of them, as if they were filth not worth your attention. And in doing so, those children are most likely doomed to lead a dangerous, and destructive life.

Dude, I'm a kid...

And seriously, I know that we kids are influenced by what we experience, but that doesn't mean that they can't make decisions on their own! Kids have minds of their own, they aren't robots programmed to do only what they're influenced to do. You said "a child that gets abused and neglected, is going to act in a manner that society looks down upon" and I have to say that's extremely stereotypical. You think kids with hard lives are automatically going to amount to some thug selling drugs on the street? That's a really bad argument, because many kids from hard backgrounds end up as more than that.

You're argument seems to center around the fact that you seem to think that kids cannot think for themselves, but seriously, even if someone is selling drugs to support a family, the fact of the matter is, that is illegal! The kid is making a choice to do something illegal, and that cannot be ignored. There has to be a punishment for that, and expulsion is an easy way out. Counseling isn't going to make a kid's family go from poverty to wealthy, so it's definitely possible that they could just revert back to there old ways. If someone really wants to support their family, then they should get an education to get themselves a better job in the future, not something that could get them expelled. You cannot pardon an individual that did something illegal because they were doing it for the right reason!


As a response to your last paragraph, I pretty much said that in the first sentence of my first post.

All in all, you seem to think kids are these controlled individuals that cannot think for themselves and that they only do what they are taught. At least this is what your post leads me to believe. If I am wrong, then correct me please.

 

[M.K]

Although the current conversation has strayed a bit from the original topic, I will answer the OP in my next statement.

I believe all children should be given as many chances at an education as possible before finally rejected their chance. Peer pressure is a big factor in today's schools, and stupidity runs amok among all the true scholars.
If Billy, a 4.0+ GPA Student, is caught smoking crack, should he be expelled? It's obvious that he has made a terrible decision, but are there alternatives to expulsion?
Yes.
Billy, a capable student, is probably aware of the consequences that he faces. Billy needs a second chance at an education. Mistakes happen, and I don't believe expulsion is the right way to handle things all the time.
Of course there are some extraneous circumstances, but for minor lapses in judgment, there should be a step below expulsion that one must travel through before the final consequence. Maybe some sort of "Strike 1/2/3" system?

 

[ArcPoint]

I'm semi in agreement with SOLID (Not sure as to his position in counseling). When you enter a school, you are made aware of the consequences for doing certain actions, and in the vast majority of schools, you get a warning before you get expelled from it. Consequences for actions MUST be enforced, no matter the condition. Children are living, thinking individuals, and should be treated as such. If we simply forgive them and say "Oh, you had to sell drugs in school to support your family" Will this discourage them from selling drugs? No, it won't, it will encourage them to keep on engaging in illegal behavior. I frankly do not wish to continue to allow people to think it is accepted and condoned to sell drugs in school.

I will concede to the point that Expulsion is a severe, and ultimately a last resort option. However WHY in hell should we NOT punish something outside of the law? In my opinion expulsion is a meager punishment for working outside of the law, how can you sit here and tell me a person doing an illegal act is JUSTIFIED by their situation? Law is not a case-by-case thing of whether or not you're punished. The law states that: If you get charged with X crime, you get Y punishment. No ands ifs or buts about it.

The only convincing argument I can think of against this is if they are not aware of the consequences, which most people aren't at an extremely young age. But where can you draw the line? At age 10? 5? 15? 20? At what point are they genuinely saying "I didn't know there was a law against it!" and at what point are they BSing it and saying the same thing? When should a child be expected to know that killing, selling illegal narcotics, sexual harassing someone is against the law?

Switching gears, I agree that they should be given counseling when people do commit these offenses, especially to younger children. I agree that help should be given to those who commit crimes, but does this mean they should be exempt from their punishment? No.

Billy, a capable student, is probably aware of the consequences that he faces. Billy needs a second chance at an education. Mistakes happen, and I don't believe expulsion is the right way to handle things all the time.
Of course there are some extraneous circumstances, but for minor lapses in judgment, there should be a step below expulsion that one must travel through before the final consequence. Maybe some sort of "Strike 1/2/3" system?

Billy is breaking THE LAW. He, like 40 year old Joe is aware of the consequences, if 40 year old Joe is caught doing something outside of the law, he will not get 3 chances to make it up, he will get punishment the first time around, maybe jail time if the crime is severe enough. Billy, on the other hand, commits the same offense, and merely gets expelled for it, and gets counseling along with it. We are already lessening the punishment considerably, why further lessen the punishment? Do we WANT to encourage crime?

 

[rhan]

I understand why schools do it. If they kept people who were disturbing the rules of the school as much as these guys around, parents would not want their children attending that school at all. By kicking them out, they are keeping their school safer. Not that it is correct, but it is why they do it. I do agree though, students should be given help before they are expelled. If they continue with these actions even after they are put through counselling, they should definitely be out. This is all to the discretions of each individual school anyway, and they have military school for the lost causes.

The schools may be safer but the streets become more dangerous. If the trouble kids were all exspelled then they wouldn't have much to do then to run the streets all day long. This could lead into possible gang creations, drug dealers, and a higher crime rate. Once this happens people will be afraid to leave there house or fear for their children leaving the house because of the potential threat they can face walking down the street. People will start to move away from the town/city/area because it would start to get a bad reputation.

------Regarding the topic------​

I do believe that expulsion is a good idea to separate the troubled kids from the good kids. But the troubled kids should not be let off the hook for what they did. They deserve to have a second chance at their education but I believe that certain conditions should be met before re-enrolling them back into that school. One possible punishment could be a certain number of hours of community service. This can help the kids understand why their education is important insted of doing something simular to picking up trash from the local park.

 

[ArcPoint]

Helping the kids understand the importance of education in my opinion would be the job the counselor. Also, I may be misinformed, but can't you enroll into a different public school if you're expelled from another one?

 

[rhan]

Helping the kids understand the importance of education in my opinion would be the job the counselor. Also, I may be misinformed, but can't you enroll into a different public school if you're expelled from another one?

This is possible in my area. But the thing about that is the distance of the public school from the kids house. Most trouble making kids come from a poor/low income family. When that is a factor then most of the time the parents wouldn't be able to get their child to a different school. If the child isn't zoned for the school then they won't have buses come to this child's house to take them to school.

On the other hand some of the kids that are acting out could just be looking for attention. Either from peers or parents. When that's the case the parents may need to sit down and have a talk with the child. As long as the child and the parent(s) can be open with one another the child shouldn't act out. But attention hogs will just act out for the thrill of being known. I will never understand the mentality of a trouble maker. I'm too much of a goodie goodie.... -_-'

Also what will switching schools do if they child is still in the same state of mind he/she was in when he/she got exspelled? Most children don't learn their lesson without a decent consequence that follows. So when giving a child a punishment like community service will do them some good in the long run. Unless the child is a sociopath then the child needs great counseling to overcome such a mentality.

 

[ArcPoint]

Just in my opinion but... if a child absolutely cannot go to another school, then the parents had BETTER be reinforcing them to not get expelled.

And the cause of a crime shouldn't change the punishment of crime.

In theory the counseling is supposed to change their mentality. But I agree that some sort of other punishment could be used.

 

[Vorguen]

You all are saying that expelling a kid is taking away his chances from an education, yet expelled kids are often admitted into other schools. Their education can continue, expelling kids can be the best course of action if that kid is participating in activities that are harming the school community at large. However, not to say that it is always the best solution, if any other possible outcome is available, then it should be taken in favor of helping the kid. However, if expulsion is the only way to keep the child and his peers safe, then it should happen. However, I do believe the new school should be informed in detail as to the behavioral patterns, discipline this child has or has not received, the actions for which he was punished, and any other information that would help the new school start the kid off in helpful programs.

 

[KillerSOS]

Just because a child is expelled from one school doesn't mean he can go to a "special" school. I have had friends in the past that went to a easier or a alt. high school and performed just fine. At a point though eventually there is just nothing more that can be done.

 

[GwJ]

I'm not posting a nice wall of text here, but I'll give my input.

Students should be expelled only after they're positive that the student doesn't/won't stop doing whatever it is he's doing wrong. The offense must also affect the people in the school and should include things like shirts, style, sexuality, language, and things like that.

 

[ArcPoint]

Students should be expelled only after they're positive that the student doesn't/won't stop doing whatever it is he's doing wrong. The offense must also affect the people in the school and should include things like shirts, style, sexuality, language, and things like that.

What do you mean by your second sentence, that the offense should have to affect other people? Most offense do affect other people... I'm a little confused as to your second sentence.

But as to your first sentence, why should you be absolutely sure they're not going to do it again? If the offense is severe enough then it deserves a punishment as such. If the offense is less severe then there's other forms of punishment (detention and whatnot). It's that simple to me.

 

[GwJ]

For my second sentence, the offense should hopefully be one that affects all others around him/her so that I COULD be viewed as a serious offense in the first place.

You can't really tell that they won't do it again either, but behavior change and a better attitude is really all you can do to get a feel for that.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I believe all children should be given as many chances at an education as possible before finally rejected their chance. Peer pressure is a big factor in today's schools, and stupidity runs amok among all the true scholars.
If Billy, a 4.0+ GPA Student, is caught smoking crack, should he be expelled? It's obvious that he has made a terrible decision, but are there alternatives to expulsion?
Yes.
Billy, a capable student, is probably aware of the consequences that he faces. Billy needs a second chance at an education. Mistakes happen, and I don't believe expulsion is the right way to handle things all the time.
Of course there are some extraneous circumstances, but for minor lapses in judgment, there should be a step below expulsion that one must travel through before the final consequence. Maybe some sort of "Strike 1/2/3" system?

If Billy knew the rules like you said, then he shouldn't get another chance. He should know better. Crack is AGAINST THE LAW!

Billy is breaking THE LAW. He, like 40 year old Joe is aware of the consequences, if 40 year old Joe is caught doing something outside of the law, he will not get 3 chances to make it up, he will get punishment the first time around, maybe jail time if the crime is severe enough. Billy, on the other hand, commits the same offense, and merely gets expelled for it, and gets counseling along with it. We are already lessening the punishment considerably, why further lessen the punishment? Do we WANT to encourage crime?

Thank you Arc.

See, being 13 myself, I know more about kids minds than most of you guys (I'm guessing). Kids know the law, they know what's legal and what's illegal. Age should not matter. The law is THE LAW, there aren't separate laws for kids 16 and under or whatever. The law is the same for everyone, or it should be. Kids aren't ignorant little people without a care in the world, kids are human beings all in all, and the law goes for all human beings. I know this is of topic, but I just think that this is important to say.

Expulsion is actually sometimes too small of a punishment. If "Billy" is caught smoking crack, then he will be expelled. If 40 year old "Joe" is caught smoking crack, he'll go to jail. Think about that, going to jail is a pretty big step up from expulsion. Billy will most likely not go to juvy when he is caught smoking crack, which is pretty much the equivalent of jail for minors. If the law actually was the same for everyone, then Billy would go to juvy for his offense. Because of this, I think expulsion is fine, even perhaps not harsh enough, as I stated above.

 

[.Marik]

Dude, I'm a kid...

And seriously, I know that we kids are influenced by what we experience, but that doesn't mean that they can't make decisions on their own! Kids have minds of their own, they aren't robots programmed to do only what they're influenced to do. You said "a child that gets abused and neglected, is going to act in a manner that society looks down upon" and I have to say that's extremely stereotypical. You think kids with hard lives are automatically going to amount to some thug selling drugs on the street? That's a really bad argument, because many kids from hard backgrounds end up as more than that.

As a response to your last paragraph, I pretty much

I'm also a kid. But I do see where you're coming from, but it's not what I meant.

Yes, they are still responsible for their actions. But negative experiences also compensate for a child's inappropriate behaviour.

Meaning it's not always a child's fault they misbehave in a manner that society sees unfit.

Because most likely nobody has taught them otherwise. So they don't take the effort nor the time to act in a civil manner. Of course they are still responsible for their actions, but do they have the positive role-models to teach them otherwise? They probably don't.

Of course, not all children who get abused are unruly delinquents. I was abused, but I act fairly decent. I'm sure a lot of children were abused. But the chance that these children will develop sadistic/negative habits if abused are much higher than those who haven't been.

As with most debates, we can't say for certain. There are a lot of variables.

 

[ArcPoint]

This is why people need to be punished for acts that are against the law, that's how people learn to not act that way. If we just excuse their punishment, they start to learn they can actually do that act.

 

[.Marik]

This is why people need to be punished for acts that are against the law, that's how people learn to not act that way. If we just excuse their punishment, they start to learn they can actually do that act.

But with first-timer child offenders, they should only be punished to a certain degree, unless they commited a heinous crime such as murder, ****, etc...

Expulsion is a tad harsh for someone who only dealed weed, or got into a fight.

 

[ArcPoint]

Who has only dealt weed ONCe or got into a fight ONCE. I agree, first time offenders shouldn't be punished as hard as 20th time offenders.

 

[.Marik]

As I said before, there are a lot of variables.

 

[M.K]

If Billy knew the rules like you said, then he shouldn't get another chance. He should know better. Crack is AGAINST THE LAW!



Thank you Arc.

See, being 13 myself, I know more about kids minds than most of you guys (I'm guessing). Kids know the law, they know what's legal and what's illegal. Age should not matter. The law is THE LAW, there aren't separate laws for kids 16 and under or whatever. The law is the same for everyone, or it should be. Kids aren't ignorant little people without a care in the world, kids are human beings all in all, and the law goes for all human beings. I know this is of topic, but I just think that this is important to say.

Expulsion is actually sometimes too small of a punishment. If "Billy" is caught smoking crack, then he will be expelled. If 40 year old "Joe" is caught smoking crack, he'll go to jail. Think about that, going to jail is a pretty big step up from expulsion. Billy will most likely not go to juvy when he is caught smoking crack, which is pretty much the equivalent of jail for minors. If the law actually was the same for everyone, then Billy would go to juvy for his offense. Because of this, I think expulsion is fine, even perhaps not harsh enough, as I stated above.

I am 15 years old, so being a kid doesn't grant you superior knowledge on all of us. Also, are you in high school yet? High school rips your puerile soul in half and creates misconceptions in us all. Middle school is still holding your hand, so you cannot say that you have experienced true peer pressure or uncomfortable situations.

When you say there aren't separate laws, you are correct. However, there ARE separate consequences. A juvenile tried for murder gets a different sentence than an adult tried for murder.

Expulsion denies a student a chance at an education, guiding them down a certain path of unbelievable hardships. If Billy was a good student, but made a bad decision due to a STUPID mistake, why should he be denied his education after that? It isn't so much a punishment thing as an educational issue.

If Billy IS allowed to stay in school, he would have a slim chance of turning back around into a model citizen.
If Billy IS NOT allowed to stay in school, it is almost guaranteed that he will continue to engage in risky behavior.

 

[Narukari]

I don't know about most schools but my high school had a referral system that lead to expulsions. If you started a fight, don't behave in class, or anything else serious enough you would get a referral. The first referral would just be a lunch detention, but as you got more referrals, you would receive increasing consequences. At 10 referrals you would be expelled from the school, but your slate would be swept clean every semester, which meant you had to cause a lot of trouble to be expelled.

Drugs/guns/alcohol/etc would be dealt with much more severely, often being expulsion.

The reasoning for expulsion is not to punish the student. It is to keep the schools where anywhere from a couple hundred to over one thousand other students attend. A kid who brings a gun into school can't just be given a lunch detention for it. They need to be removed from the school for the safety of the other kids. Similar with a kid dealing drugs in school. They reached a point where they need much more than standard school punishment.

Expulsion is not the end of the world for a kid either. Some districts will have an alternative school that deals with the students that get expelled from the normal school system. Where they can keep an eye on the students at all times, and make sure they are performing in their studies. Even if there is no alternative school, the parents can either enroll them in a different school, or home school them.