Example of how ignorant people are to an alternate suggestion.

[jngshin]

you are basically telling us to further research the idea of tripping withouth giving us any concrete reason to.
It's like going to a bunch of scientists and telling them "hey guys can you see if cancer is caused by eating chocolate? I mean I don't have any proof this is true, but my friend ate chocolate and got cancer a week later, so I think it begs some research. How about it?" and then getting pissed when the scientists tell you to **** off. If you want to change our minds about something, either bring undeniable concrete evidence, or stfu and go back to finding it yourself. If you DO find a reason for tripping, then guess what, these boards will hail you as a hero and you'll forever be remembered as that guy who found out tripping isnt random. But don't come in here and randomly spout out meaningless theories and expect us to devote our time and effort to researching it when our top smashers have already spent hours upon hours discussing and experimenting it.

Sakurai made an absolutely critical error when he put tripping into the game. It is my #1 turnoff to playing Brawl more often. But I also see they did this because it could be portrayed as "fun" and "wacky" to a party-game playing audience. I hope one day sakurai gets asked about this.

 

[Venusdude21]

Valken: You can voice your opinion all you want, but if you want anyone to believe you, come up with some proof of your thought and maybe people won't flame you.

BTW, reposting the same thing gets you flamed on its own.

 

[Alondite]

Whether you're new or not means nothing. What you say means everything.

What part of "There's been extensive research into tripping" was too hard for you to grasp? Hitaku (among others) have dedicated hours into testing this. Scientific conclusions have been made.

Meanwhile, you just swoop in with this outlandish claim with zero evidence to back it up other than your assumption. Have you even researched this yourself? Or did you just assume (because there's no way for a character on the ground to have both feet off the ground in Brawl).

There are videos and threads out there which disprove your claim. What do you have to prove it?

"Scientific conclusions?" You mean you dissected the game's code in order to find out what triggers the tripping? I find that hard to believe, and that's really the ONLY way to have a 100% sure answer as to what causes it.

 

[Yuna]

Oh so basically you're so hell bent on not allowing me to voice my oppinion without flaming me, because you've put alot of time and effort to try and prove that your way is right.

No, we just think you're an idiot for being illogical and making up inane bovine manure and trying to pass it off as valid debate.

So if I turn out to be right than that means what?

Will never happen in a million years. Even if Tripping isn't Random, it won't be for any of the inane reasons you've come up with.

All that time and effort and silly videos is worthless compared to my simple, thought out, and much more plausable suggestion.

"Silly videos", you say? As opposed to your suggestions which are not thought-out nor are they actually plausible?

Hitaku's put down 100's of hours into testing Tripping and so have others. How many minutes have you put down?

Let's list all of your inane "suggestions" insofar (not that Tripping isn't Random but why it isn't Random):
* The Marios are touching
* dphanna must've somehow magically adjusted the timing to her dashing despite the fact that all 3 Marios were controlled using the same controller
* One Mario tripped and then another tripped shortly after, obviously, it tripped in response to the 1st trip (despite the fact that the 3rd Mario did not trip)
* There's a made an imaginary "awkward animation" where at certain times, you'll be trying to start a dash with a foot while the other's already in the air... despite any lack of evidence of such an animation even existing (and me demanding that you answer the question whether or not you've seen such an animation a total of four times)
* It can't be random because that would be stupid ("Sakurai would never insert something that bad and make it Random" or whatever you said)

How is any of that thought-out or even plausible, especially when we have empirical evidence on the very contrary? Hundreds of hours of testing where everything we could possibly think of were tested vs. Your "thoughout" suggestions = You fail.

Here's the facts.

Either one of us has an equal chance of being right because no body knows the truth. You are claiming it's random, I claim that it's not. You have proof that it's random, I have more logical thoughts. You can't prove randomness so basically we're on even playing field.

Seriously, you've already been proven wrong. We have proof to substantiate what we say. But you claim we're wrong because you say so. Pray tell, when will you admit defeat? One year without us finding out a way to substantiate your claims? Two years? 5?

Besides, Sakurai himself has actually stated that Slipping (i.e. Tripping) is indeed random:
"Increased likelihood of slipping..."

Which means that without the Negative Zone, there's a "likelihood of slipping", which means that not every single Dash/Fsmash/F-tilt is gonna trip you over, it just has a likelihood of you tripping... which is the very definition of randomness.

There. Sakurai said it. What other source do you need?!

So let's look at the main deciding factor.

Us all being die hard SSB fans... Do you honestly think they would put a random trip in the game everyone has been looking foward to for years and years?

Yes, why wouldn't they?

The game is obviously designed more for the Casual market than the Competitive one. Sakurai probably thought it'd be a fun new thing to implement into the game.

Why in a game where everything is dumbed down and made more intuitive would be insert tripping, which apparently isn't random but based on something so obscure that even hundreds of hours of testing won't reveal to us a way to prevent it from happening? The Casual players would have no way of discovering it!

 

[Mama]

Stop retconning yourself.

"Tripping accurs when your character performs an awkward move that results in a character animation with both their feet off the ground"

And why would they do this, anyway?! "You'll trip if you happen to get into this situation which happens sometimes because you did something and then immediately dashed afterwards".


You can trip whether you push it "fast" or "slow".


I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I've also tripped out of the very first dash in a game. I guess the game put me in a position where both my feet were off the ground/one foot tripped me or whatever you're trying to claim when I spawned at the beginning of the game.


1) Of course they put random tripping in. They put in overpowered as hell items like the Dragoon and Final Smashes. They're not really very concerned about competitive gaming.
2) See above, they also dumbed it down, removed a lot of options and spent a lot of time on designing casual aspects of the game. The majority of the stages are also bad for tournament play. Sakurai is at heart a casual gamer and loves casual gamers (nothing wrong with that). The game was designed primarily for casual gaming. It's not the most competitive(ly viable) game of the year because you say so or because a lot of casuals want to compete against each other in it.
3) You don't have an answer. You have an assumption you made based on bupkis. There's already been extensive research into Tripping. We've already confirmed a lot of things (that make what you claim impossible).


Because we have facts and findings that state otherwise while you have bupkis.

Lol seriously, you sound like a pessimistic *****. I wont bother arguing with you because nobody can change your mind, only results.

Anyway, I think tripping is random. Sakurai has proved that he's not very smart. Making tether recoveries only work by auto sweet spotting took away a characters ability to hook onto the side of the stage essentially making them suckers for edge hugging. That idea was terrible. Making tripping random is just as terrible. Its stupid. However, I do think that tripping may have something to do with turning around or awkward foot movements. Running straight out of a standing position causes your character to trip sometimes. And that happens at random. I haven't tripped while doing an attack or jumping so it has something to do with foot movement. Maybe we'll find a way around it. Like some kind of walk to run or jump to airdodge to run and be able to minimize the chances of tripping.

What makes tripping so stupid is it randomizes a lot of the play. Its like to boxers fighting and knowing at some random time, if they move someone will throw an ocelot at them just to see how they react. The only bright side is when you trip you're invincible so once we quicken our reflexes we may be able to avoid being punished for tripping.

 

[Yuna]

To reiterate and make sure everybody gets it:
Sakurai himself has said that tripping is indeed Random (thought not directly and in so many words).

Here's a quote of myself:
Besides, Sakurai himself has actually stated that Slipping (i.e. Tripping) is indeed random:
"Increased likelihood of slipping..."

Which means that without the Negative Zone, there's a "likelihood of slipping", which means that not every single Dash/Fsmash/F-tilt is gonna trip you over, it just has a likelihood of you tripping... which is the very definition of randomness.

There. Sakurai said it. What other source do you need?!



Watch Valken argue that that statement can be interpreted in any number of ways, including that Tripping is indeed Random because bird can fly!

 

[Valken]

How's about logical questioning of your "proof."

Watch the Three Mario's...

Don't you find it a tad odd that the Mario on the right is the first to trip every time?

I'm going to perform the same test right now, now that I'm home.

Do it yourself and just allow yourself to question the randomness.

Let's stop the flaming and debating and start working together.

Wouldn't you guys enjoy it more if you found out it wasn't random?

We all know it's a little peculiar.

So let's work together until we get a Three Mario's video that doesn't present any peculiar evidence.

Arguing is fun, but I want to solve this once and for all.


I'm going to put all my effort into finding out the truth.

I will find evidence that is 100% fail-safe (right term?)

I don't want another one of these threads.

Oppinions should never lead to this much argument.


[edit]

Not trying to argue any more just posing alternate suggestions.

Perhaps the "increased likelyness of slipping" (sry for spelling) means the increased likelyness of ending up in the tripping position.

Just ideas.

 

[Intercept]

Either one of us has an equal chance of being right because no body knows the truth. You are claiming it's random, I claim that it's not. You have proof that it's random, I have more logical thoughts. You can't prove randomness so basically we're on even playing field.

Well neither of us likely know for sure whether Sakurai is a hermaphrodite. I'll say he isn't, you'll say he is. Guess what? I'm still more likely correct, because science shows most people aren't!

Experiments (Which are the whole basis of science) that are **** near perfect have shown tripping is random. Get over it. Stop being a martyr.

 

[infernovia]

Either one of us has an equal chance of being right because no body knows the truth. You are claiming it's random, I claim that it's not. You have proof that it's random, I have more logical thoughts. You can't prove randomness so basically we're on even playing field.

I have a question, if one guy said you are in a flat earth and the other says you are in a spherical (pearical) earth, are they on the same playing field?

 

[Yuna]

How's about logical questioning of your "proof."

None of it has been logical insofar.

Watch the Three Mario's...

Don't you find it a tad odd that the Mario on the right is the first to trip every time?

Stuff

I'll personally give you 20 bucks if you can prove any of the inane bovine manure you've been spouting over the past few days (not simply that Tripping isn't Random, but that it happens because of any of the "arguments" you've presented).

Not trying to argue any more just posing alternate suggestions.

Perhaps the "increased likelyness of slipping" (sry for spelling) means the increased likelyness of ending up in the tripping position.

Just ideas.

And the desperate "debater" desperately cluthes for a way out (and fails).

What tripping position would this be? Would the increased likelihood of tripping mean that you're mot likely to get into a magical position where a dash is going to trip you, guaranteed?

And why would he word it like it's indeed random?! Millions of Casual players will be reading that and think it means tripping is Random!

 

[Taymond]

*laughs* You're absolutely ridiculous, Valden. You expect us to be swayed by supposition, but you refuse to be swayed by evidence? We reject what you're saying, so that makes us ignorant; you reject what we're saying, and that makes you a hero?

HERE'S the facts. We've done extensive testing to support our conclusion and we're being presented with pure supposition contrary to our conclusion, so we reject it. You've taken oh-so-much time to decide, arbitrarily, that you don't think it's random, and are presented with extensive testing that suggests you're wrong, and you reject it.

You have no logical reason to cling so strongly to unsupported opinion in the face of evidence to the contrary. You have NO evidence to support your own theory. Sure, it might be possible, but you've no evidence whatsoever. You're being shown evidence to the contrary, though, and you pointedly dismiss it as irrelevant. You're just stubborn.

You call us ignorant because you can't change our minds. It would appear though, that we can't change yours, so what does that make you? You can't just arbitrarily decide you're right and we're wrong, you need a reason to think that way.

 

[Mr.100]

F*** you are a moron. Valken please remove yourself from the gene pool.

The three Mario's videos shows the characters with EXACTLY the same input yet one trips. Thus PROVING that there is no specific situation which causes tripping. This shows that tripping is SIMPLY a random event based on a percentage. This is going by the definition of random being something that can not be controlled or accurately predicted.

An example of something random in a game is Critical Hits in Pokemon. There is a 10% that a move will be critical. The player cannot control this and it cannot be predicted thus meaning that when it occurs it is RANDOM. Same thing is applied here, simply there is a percentage chance that tripping will occur when you move with the control stick. Each subsequent dash is another chance. Dash dancing increases the likeliness of tripping because each movement is simply adding another chance (albeit with equal probability) to trip.

Please concede, give up or walk away. You have no argument so just stop.

 

[Valken]

Sigh... People really don't ever change.

If anyone wants to help me find 100% proof to either side, then speak up.
If no one does, I'll leave you all to your flaming.

And Yuna, I don't think you honestly 100% believe it's random. So why wouldn't you want the help from someone who obviously puts a lot of time into this? We could find out it's random, or find out it's not. Either way, wouldn't you want to be sure?

[EDIT]

Mr 100... You honestly don't find anything odd about the fact that the one on the right tripped first every time? That video will satisfy the simple minded but for any intelligent person it still leaves an feeling of question in the pit of your stomach.

 

[b0b d0e]

I don't really understand the purpose in arguing over this. Something I know is that no amount of reason will change someone's beliefs. If it is his firm belief that Windows is better than Mac, then so be it. Even if in reality Mac is better, his belief still will not change based upon reason.

Me, I think it is random. After reading the thread and the evidence provided, it seems to make more sense for it to be random. Then again, I had no predisposition to it being either random or not, thus my perception on the matter is based off the reason provided.

 

[Yuna]

Sigh... People really don't ever change.

At least I'm right.

If anyone wants to help me find 100% proof to either side, then speak up.
If no one does, I'll leave you all to your flaming.

We already have proof. Empirical evidence through 100's of hours of testing plus Sakurai's own words.

And Yuna, I don't think you honestly 100% believe it's random. So why wouldn't you want the help from someone who obviously puts a lot of time into this? We could find out it's random, or find out it's not. Either way, wouldn't you want to be sure?

1) Yes I do. You seem to believe a lot of bogus bovine manure.
2) How much time have you "obviously" put into testing tripping?! How much time (I've asked you this before)? Or have you just been "brainstorming" inane reasons for why it cannot be random without actually testing out said hypothesis?
3) Why should I waste time disproving already proven stuff. That video is not the only one. It's just a good one. There are other videos, findings and testings which have proven that Tripping for all intents and purposes is random. Oh, and did I mention what Sakurai says on the Smash Dojo?

Mr 100... You honestly don't find anything odd about the fact that the one on the right tripped first every time? That video will satisfy the simple minded but for any intelligent person it still leaves an feeling of question in the pit of your stomach.

The Blue Mario tripped twice. The red Mario trippedo once. This must mean that the last Mario will never trip! ZOMG! Everybody play that colour!

Really, one single coincidence does not a rule make. I pull grand-father turnips and other items as Peach with a much higher frequency than everyone else. Doesn't mean the odds have magically changed.

 

[pockyD]

this is stupid

"prove" it's not random, then come back... even though it IS random, whatever contrived proof you come up with will be sure to entertain us all and be a lot more interesting than you screaming about how the sun revolves around the earth

 

[Mr.100]

Yes its obvious to me now... you have to have a blue costume on to trip...

Oh the irony of you stating that accepting something that has been proved as fact is simple minded. An intelligent person realizes when something has been proved. In all maths and science things that are proven are known as laws until something disproves it. You have provided zero evidence to prove that tripping is not random and yet you still believe yourself to be right based solely on an assumption...

You may be thinking differently but that doesn't mean you are thinking intelligently.

 

[Taymond]

No, Valken. NO ONE finds it odd that the right one tripped first on a small handful trials. It's not a large enough sample group. OF COURSE they aren't going to trip in exactly the same percentage in only 4 or 5 trials, that's not how probability works. It's not at all surprising the results of only a few trials aren't normalized. No one cold expect them to be.

The 3 marios video is a convenient, quick way to demonstrate the fact that identical inputs produce different outputs. The majority of our evidence that tripping is random, however, is NOT this video. It's the HOURS of testing Hitaku has put in and the results he compiled.

You can't say that because the sample group in the marios video isn't large enough, then we don't have enough evidence, because the 3 marios video isnt' our only evidence. It's practically none of it. It's a quick, convenient way to demonstrate the result, though.

On the other hand, we can say that the 3 marios video does, in fact, demonstrate that tripping is random, because if tripping was random, you would expect it to occur randomly in a small number of trials. One might trip several times, another not at all. There's nothing there that proves it's not random.

The 3 Marios video does not prove tripping is random, it DEMONSTRATES it.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I've started a match, tapped forward to run, and tripped. Are you telling me that RUNNING is an awkward movement that should be avoided to keep my character from tripping?

 

[Phail3d]

Sakurai did it for the lulz. Though I doubt Sakurai did anything. Name some random programmer in the developement team and blame him/her.

From what data we have, I think it's safe to say tripping is at least somewhat random. The odds of tripping might depend on something, but that doesn't really make it not random. Also, from a programmers point of view it sounds silly to write extensive algorithms to check whether a character might trip or not and then trip her for a chance. So unless proven otherwise, I'll blatantly believe the game checks for a random number whenever a character initiates a dash, causing tripping or not. I don't really care though.. tripping sure sucks but doesn't seem very game breaking...not to me at least.

This thread for love.

 

[Mama]

Has anyone ever actually tripped doing an attack? Aside from Yuna I mean.

 

[Yuna]

Has anyone ever actually tripped doing an attack? Aside from Yuna I mean.

I haven't. A lot of other people have.

 

[pyro363]

Dude you are amazing thanks for finding the truth so know i can practice not to trip

 

[Magus420]

You can trip when attempting to do non-csticked f-smashes and side-B attacks (if you smash-B them) since you are often initiating a dash to do them. Unless you happen to hit the necessary direction and the button on that exact same 1/60th of a second you will be dashing for 1+ frames, and so you will also be able to trip.

 

[SilintNinjya]

Has anyone ever actually tripped doing an attack? Aside from Yuna I mean.

i have. i tripped doing my forward B. never up or down attacks though.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Has anyone ever actually tripped doing an attack? Aside from Yuna I mean.

I have. I also forced someone to trip while I was doing Kirby's Dair last night quite a few times. I hit them, they slid, they tripped and I would have followed up, but there's no L-Canceling so............................yeah.

 

[Crizthakidd]

what if they put tripping on chracters like 3x rates on a gc controller and 2x on a wiimote+nunchuck and just 1x on a wii mote.

i tripped like 1/3 less over a series of 20 min tests with a wii mote then i did with my gc controller. they wanted balance?

just randonmess tho

 

[Yuna]

what if they put tripping on chracters like 3x rates on a gc controller and 2x on a wiimote+nunchuck and just 1x on a wii mote.

i tripped like 1/3 less over a series of 20 min tests with a wii mote then i did with my gc controller. they wanted balance?

just randonmess tho

No, they didn't.

3 20 minute tests does not a rule prove. Hundreds of hours prove it.

 

[Fuzzyness]

baka it's clear enough in the vid, stop trying to prove to people who've been playing smash for years. And theres definitely no way you can't say its caused by a bad input or move w/e if chars are being controlled BY ONE CONTROLLER ALL DOING THE SAME THING

if you think you can make proof from something thats based on luck go win the lottery mr perfect

Honey (Yuna) be more specific :3 hundreds of hours cant prove something that happens randomly and based on luck so there is no alternate reason

 

[Goldkirby]

If tripping isn't random, please explain to me why I have tripped at the very beginning of the match where nobody was near me, and all I did was press the control stick forward?

I'm pretty sure tripping is random and completely sure that it is stupid.

 

[Xeorogue]

Valken: Proof or stop trolling.
he wont even read others refutes to his bs statement of "This is not random".

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

What does the title have to do with what you're talking about?

 

[Taymond]

He changed it once the reaction he received wasn't nearly as praise-filled as he hoped. He thinks our adherence to empirical testing, as opposed to completely unsupported opinion, is ignorant.

 

[Megaa]

This entire thread is like a ton of good points by everyone, then Valken chooses one person that didn't answer in pristine and perfect kindness and english and he refutes that one point, completely ignoring all the rest.

Argument by selective reading, to a point. Enjoy your fallacious argument.

 

[Ganny]

Valken stop being so stubborn.

When we say random, we mean that the program has a list of variables which it runs through systematically through an extremely advanced formula. A human being could not calculate what it will be in the amount of time given. If you can more power to you

Back on subject. When a certain action happens, the answer to the formula decides if it is a trip or no trip.
You simply cannot determine what will happen with the amount of time given, thats why it is termed 'random'

it follows a humanly undetectable pattern. Period.

Follow me?

 

[Yuna]

Didn't Valken leave to do extensive research around 24 hours ago? Gee, I wonder why he hasn't returned to triumphantly post about finding out things that determine that Tripping is random...

 

[Samochan]

If Valken ever wants to prove tripping isn't random, then he most definitely has to provide concrete proof that it most definitely isn't random. One person's logic is not a solid argument in any case, one needs proof. There was once a logic going around that Earth is the center of it all, yet it was proven wrong. Not by someone else's logic, but hard facts they got from observing, testing and whatever they did. Tripping is random has plenty of proof, but I'm still waiting Valken to provide his.

 

[Tlatoani]

 

[altir]

Even though the 3 Marios are controlled by the same controller

all Marios are controlled by the same Wavebird. All Marios have the same timing on everything.

There is absolutely no possible way to fix the timing of just one of the Marios when they're all being controlled by the same Wavebird!

Why are you saying everything twice?

LAWL, irony.

yuna for prez

 

[Negative Zero]

I've tripped with ROB before. At what point does he have both his feet off the ground?