Example of how ignorant people are to an alternate suggestion.

[Wiseguy]

It's soooo obvious guys. Tripping is caused by Sakurai himself. He sits in a swiveling armchair in his secret lair - monitoring every Brawl match as they happen. Whenever someone does something to earn his wrath, the great Sakurai presses a large red button on his arm rest - causing them to trip.

 

[redgreenblue]

You're still misusing it. "Example of how ignorant people are to an alternate suggestion." - How can be showing a lack of knowledge to an alternate suggestion? By not knowing what the heck you're talking about because you're being illogical?

Hi, I'm not joining in with the tussle, but I'm just here to say; ignorant in that use would imply that you are not paying attention to alternate suggestions.

However, you are; in fact you are refuting them. Perhaps a better use of the word would be "Example of how ignorant people are to the validity of an alternate suggestion"?

Thanks,

RGB

 

[Lixivium]

The original point was to put my idea about tripping up. When questioned I presented my alternatives. It was always an oppinion and any intelligent human being would understand this. Then I began to get flamed. I completely disreguarded my oppinion do to the fact that I was flabbergasted at the fact that people believed that they proved something random and are, in fact, ignorant to alternate suggestion.

Not all "alternate" suggestions are valid. In fact they're all equally WORTHLESS unless you can give substantive proof for your suggestion.

It's not just that you're wrong, it's that you're acting like a self-righteous D-bag.

 

[BlakeOut]

Valken, they did respond a bit brutally, but your changing of the thread title is just as if not more immature.

and lol robot tripping.

At least the opposing party provided evidence instead of random wordbrawling

 

[shadydentist]

It's soooo obvious guys. Tripping is caused by Sakurai himself. He sits in a swiveling armchair in his secret lair - monitoring every Brawl match as they happen. Whenever someone does something to earn his wrath, the great Sakurai presses a large red button on his arm rest - causing them to trip.

I knew it.... SAKURAIIIIIII!!!!!

 

[fauxpas]

I'm wondering if someone has asked Nintendo about this yet? maybe a link to the article or interview? Surely someone has Sakurai's cell phone number...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's soooo obvious guys. Tripping is caused by Sakurai himself. He sits in a swiveling armchair in his secret lair - monitoring every Brawl match as they happen. Whenever someone does something to earn his wrath, the great Sakurai presses a large red button on his arm rest - causing them to trip.

...

I knew it.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TheLake]

I say everytime you trip in the game you should lose a stock.

That outta set things straight.

 

[Terradrius]

You seem to be forgetting that you can never prove something is random. You can prove it is not, but not that it is. So to say you have proof that it's random is an out right lie.

I originally had a longer post, but I'm just going to attack this point.

How can you prove that something isn't random, but can't prove that it is? It could be that Marth's sword does a randomized bit of damage and knockback, and has nothing to with which part of the sword you hit people with. We're all just astronomically lucky in that every one of us has had better results from hitting people with the tip of his sword. The slight possibility of this being the case (especially with no evidence to the contrary) doesn't make you justified in believing it - and it doesn't make people who don't believe it ignorant.

How is this example any different than your argument about tripping? There is significant evidence in both cases, for and against randomness respectively... I just don't see how you can prove something isn't random, but can't prove that it is.

 

[SFJake]

How to prove something random. Simple. Repeat the process perfectly multiple times (and I mean it, 100% the same). If the results can vary on the exact same situation, then there is, indeed, some randomness. I don't see how its not "proven" then.

The video shows 3 mario doing the exact same thing with the same controller. Reproduction of the same movements, hell, at the same time even, and they trip at different instances. TELL ME HOW IS THIS NOT A PROOF?

 

[Samus Syndrome]

Lets count how many times this has been refuted. Hmmmmm......

Refutation # 1

Refutation # 2

Refutation #3

Refutation #4

Refutation.....(this has to be a record) #5!!!!!

Sorry, I just had to point this out. I'll let them do the talking ^^^^^^

 

[mugwhump]

This isn't a matter of oppinon.

This is a fact of life.

You absolutely can not ever prove that something is random. It is impossible.

You can argue that I'm wrong but you can never say you have proof that it's random.

That's just impossible.

It's a really simple idea, you can't prove something random. Very understandable. It perplexes me how anyone can disagree with that.

Can someone explain how you prove something is random? (aside from asking the game makers)

If you can explain how you prove randomness I'll give you a gold token. If you get three gold tokens you can go to the treasure box at the end of the day, so do your best!

This am logical fallacy.

Your argument applies to natural phenomena, but not to intentionally designed systems, i.e. computer programs. In this type of man-made system, it's actually quite easy to prove randomness: if identical inputs produce different outputs, the system contains an element of random chance. This is exactly what phanna did in his video.

 

[infernovia]

Why is this troll thread still open.

 

[Rican Roll]

You seem to be forgetting that you can never prove something is random. You can prove it is not, but not that it is. So to say you have proof that it's random is an out right lie.

I stand by my statement. Only time will tell who's right.
If I'm wrong, so be it. I don't care, I just want the truth.
If I'm right, I hope you all learn a valuable lesson.

You may not be able to prove that something is 100% random. You can prove, however, that the aspects that govern an action can be so completely complex with thousands of variables that it so vastly beyond our ability to control or exploit that it might as well be considered random. Hence, tripping.

 

[Glix]

I don't even know why I'm posting this, but I will.

3 character CONTROLLED BY THE SAME CONTROLLER. One trips and the others don't. That is all the proof I need. At this point, you NEED EVIDENCE to disprove it, or else keep the old mouth shut.

 

[Yuna]

I don't even know why I'm posting this, but I will.

3 character CONTROLLED BY THE SAME CONTROLLER. One trips and the others don't. That is all the proof I need. At this point, you NEED EVIDENCE to disprove it, or else keep the old mouth shut.

His reply to the video was:
* "The player 'adjusted his (her, actually) timing' after the 1st Mario tripped" (as if that's even possible when all 3 Marios are controlled by the same controller). There's no adjusting of any timing. It's the same for all 3.
* One Mario tripped, then shortly after, another one tripped. Clearly Tripper #2 tripped in response to Tripper #1 tripping
* All three Marios were touching each other somewhat. Must have a connection to the tripping.

I bovine manure you not, these were his arguments to refute that the video showed that tripping is indeed random.

 

[mugwhump]

Does anyone wanna pool their gold tokens with me? I need two more to open the treasure box.

 

[Serpit]

Tripping accurs when your character performs an awkward move that results in a character animation with both their feet off the ground.

Now, what is wrong with this picture? Straight from the Dojo.

Obviously, Mario is tripping. Sakurai just calls it "dashing" on his website.

 

[pockyD]

just to be certain, almost nothing in the world is TRULY "random"

when people say random in reference to games, they generally mean that the event occurring is out of their control and isn't influenced by anything that the player could calculate and take advantage of

seeding on an internal game clock to the millisecond is for all intents and purposes game-wise, random

edit: lol serpit that's amazing

i wish stupidity was a bannable offense

 

[hoopspr226]

Based on that video alone, I'm not convinced that tripping is completely random.

Could it be possible that certain motions/actions lend themselves to tripping moreso than others. For example, any time you dashdance you might have a 10% chance of tripping, while a normal dash out of a static stance lends itself to a 2% chance of tripping.

Has anyone tested this?

If this is the case, then tripping would no longer be random, and it would be at least somewhat controllable. While it would still be stupid that you could trip at all, at least their would be some means to control your likelihood of tripping.

 

[Yuna]

Ouh, maybe that's the fabled "awkward" movement he's talking about.

 

[showdownkiller]

There are things that pass all current tests for randomness. Physical phenomena. /dev/random in linux uses some sort of physical measurement to produce better numbers than a random number generator. Don't know if it's truly random.

Furthermore, I'm almost positive smash bros and/or the Wii use some sort of psuedorandom number generator (which uses a seed and the arithmetic of large numbers to produce a seemingly random sequence that eventually repeats) So, tripping is psuedorandom, and not random. So there.

You seem to be forgetting that you can never prove something is random. You can prove it is not, but not that it is. So to say you have proof that it's random is an out right lie.

I stand by my statement. Only time will tell who's right.
If I'm wrong, so be it. I don't care, I just want the truth.
If I'm right, I hope you all learn a valuable lesson.

This is equivalent to stating that the laws of thermodynamics shouldn't apply because the statistical mechanics they're based off of allow a small chance of them randomly being broken. If I remember correctly, if you multiply the chance of this happening per second by the total number of seconds predicted for the lifetime of the universe, the probability of any of these laws being broken is far,far less than 1%.

It's true that the nature of randomness means that any sequence could, indeed, have a pattern behind it. But once you get past a certain sample size (which depends on context), statistical tests can be applied that make it a bad idea to further entertain a non-random source.

Furthermore, watch as I contradict myself! The numbers generated by a good random number generator (which the wii/smash bros doesn't necessarily have or need) will pass all sorts of tests for randomness before they start looping. Therefore we can conclude that tripping IS random!

Finally, if multiple marios are being controlled by the same wavebird, there is a chance that the signal reaches one of the marios before it reaches the others. Interference could confuse the signal. However, it's my hunch that this isn't true. As reference, I use the assumption that tourney level players have been known to use wavebirds. They obviously assume that any time lag from using a wireless controller, if it exists, is neglible on the level of their play. Since these people probably sometimes work on the level of frames, I'm going to go ahead and assume that the mario video above, for all intents and purposes, can be assumed as having all three marios receive the same commands at the same time. The fact that only one of them trips would then tell us that controller input has zero, squat, and zilch to do with tripping.

In which case I would call it... "random" .

In conclusion: You lose.

 

[Yuna]

Based on that video alone, I'm not convinced that tripping is completely random.

Maybe the following post will.

Could it be possible that certain motions/actions lend themselves to tripping moreso than others. For example, any time you dashdance you might have a 10% chance of tripping, while a normal dash out of a static stance lends itself to a 2% chance of tripping.

Even if this were (which it's not, Hitaku's tested it), it would still be random.

"One out of every 100 normal dashes have a chance of tripping while one out of every 10 dash dance dashes will make you trip"

... ... ...

That's random! It's just that the odds are different depending on what you do. When the same action only yields a certain reaction in one out of X times, it's random!

If this is the case, then tripping would no longer be random, and it would be at least somewhat controllable. While it would still be stupid that you could trip at all, at least their would be some means to control your likelihood of tripping.

It's still random.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness

 

[Yuna]

There are things that pass all current tests for randomness. Physical phenomena. /dev/random in linux uses some sort of physical measurement to produce better numbers than a random number generator. Don't know if it's truly random.

Furthermore, I'm almost positive smash bros and/or the Wii use some sort of psuedorandom number generator (which uses a seed and the arithmetic of large numbers to produce a seemingly random sequence that eventually repeats) So, tripping is psuedorandom, and not random. So there.

It's as random as a video game can be.

This is equivalent to stating that the laws of thermodynamics shouldn't apply because the statistical mechanics they're based off of allow a small chance of them randomly being broken. If I remember correctly, if you multiply the chance of this happening per second by the total number of seconds predicted for the lifetime of the universe, the probability of any of these laws being broken is far,far less than 1%.

Not the same thing.

It's true that the nature of randomness means that any sequence could, indeed, have a pattern behind it. But once you get past a certain sample size (which depends on context), statistical tests can be applied that make it a bad idea to further entertain a non-random source.

Yeah, maybe the pattern would repeat itself if we played with 99 stocks and dashed 20,000 times or something.

Finally, if multiple marios are being controlled by the same wavebird, there is a chance that the signal reaches one of the marios before it reaches the others.

Have you seen the video? The only thing dphanna's doing is telling them to dash back and forth. Even if the signal were to be slightly delayed by, say, 1 frame, the Marios should still all trip (even if one or two of the trips would be slightly delayed).

They're all received the same signal telling them to do the same thing. Even if one is delayed, he's doing the exact same thing as the others and the results should, thus, be the same.

Also, have you watched the video? They're perfectly in synch with each other. I see no huge delays that are so large they're visible to the naked eye.

Interference could confuse the signal.

dphanna did it at home, not at a tournament. I doubt there were magical interfere waves in the air.

 

[shadydentist]

The odds of tripping during a dashdance are greater only because you're inputting far more direction changes per second, not because the inherent chance of tripping changes.

 

[ph00tbag]

You're right, it's not random.

It's computer random.

But the data they're using is likely varied enough for it to be **** close. The algorithm they're using is designed to emulate randomness.

 

[Yuna]

The odds of tripping during a dashdance are greater only because you're inputting far more direction changes per second, not because the inherent chance of tripping changes.

Directional change has nothing to do with it. Smashing the control stick has everything to do with it. Dashdancing or dashing in the other direction does not change the odds in any way.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

its obviously in the programing to have it happen randomly. because all the marios would have fallen over if it had anything to do with button input.

 

[infernovia]

Guys the number generator doesn't have to be that complex, even something like this would work:

1 9 2 8 3 7 4 6 5 0 looped and generated at milliseconds.

What I am saying is, even if you knew the algorithm and the comparison function, if its calculating by milliseconds, heck even frame by frame, there is still no possible way for us to use tripping because we cannot do actions that fast. And practically, thats what matters.

And yes, tripping is directly related to controller input. Smashing the stick to a side results in a chance to trip. I don't see how that video can be disproven or looked at in a different way.

 

[orintemple]

If odds of tripping are not random, then how come I tripped 6 times as Sheik during allstar mode and none as Fox? They both took me 10 min to complete, give or take 30 seconds. And I HIGHLY doubt I would have tripped 5 times in 30 seconds. Yea, its random, get over it. And even, EVEN if it WASN'T random, it still happens at strange enough times that it would feel random anyway.

But it IS completely random. Yuna has made many fine posts already, LISTEN!

 

[Jon64]

The first thing I ever did in brawl was try to move forward. I failed.

 

[Yuna]

And yes, tripping is directly related to controller input. Smashing the stick to a side results in a chance to trip. I don't see how that video can be disproven or looked at in a different way.

But the Marios are touching! Hello!

 

[_Riot_]

You know ever since Brawl has come out and these new 2008 members have joined, ive seen an influx of people getting almost verbally destroyed by Yuna. By what ive seen in this thread, which isnt much in terms of logic: People are under the impression tripping isnt random. However. the fact is even if you can say this character has a "10%" chance after running x amount of time, in this y stage, with this z character or any other farfetched equation ( this is just example and not an actually equation/test someones brought up, although i wouldnt be surprised ) the fact would be you yourself would not be able to influence or activate it even if you had that whatever percentile, thus still surprising you in a random fashion.

The only way i can see this ever being solved beyond the answer of "its random" is if we had access to the debug menu, which im sure we will in time.

 

[Ballistaboy]

>_>

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw

owned

10chars.

 

[Winston]

This thread is seriously unbelievable.

Where do these people come from?

 

[ylink_underestimted]

Hooray! Post count plus 1!!!

lol @ Jon64: People tend to look at Smash n00bs differently (or at least I do), and since you said you failed it somehow makes it seem funnier hahahaha
Don't worry though, when I fist joined I got flamed for using YLink XD

I go with the Debug Menu saying whether or not Tripping is random (which I think it is: I Tripped while owning with Toon Link in my very first time playing Brawl and my friend almost FS'd me with his Marth haha)

 

[Taymond]

The current problem, now that Valken has stopped communicating here, is that some people don't seem to understand what's meant by random here. Just because you can describe a percentage of time that an action occurs doesn't mean that it isn't random. If there are different likelihoods that certain actions produce a trip, but you can NEVER produce an action that trips 100% of the time, then tripping is random, plain and simple.

It doesn't matter if say, walking has a 2% chance every step, while dashing has a 10% chance every step. That doesn't make it not random. In fact, if you can honestly determine those numbers through some method, that demonstrates that it IS random. You cannot perform a certain movement that will always produce a trip. Every movement that can trip will do so only SOME OF THE TIME. Do you realize the implication there? The same input will produce different results on different trials. That means that there is some element of chance involved--that it is random.

Valken, if you still bother to check these boards, let me say something to you. I'm awestruck sometimes at how petty this community can be, and YOU, not your opposition here, are a fantastic example of that pettiness. You want so much to demonstrate that this community can be too harsh in its defense of widely regarded fact. You want to make us look foolish, but you fail to see the issue from any perspective but your own, shallow view.

Yes, many times in the past, communities in the world that were sure of something were shown to be completely foolish in their beliefs. And yeah, maybe those communities ought to have been more accepting of other points of view. This fact has NOTHING to do with this situation. One group, "us," has done or observed empirical testing on the subject. We have demonstrated with absolute accuracy, in the video you were shown, that identical inputs provide different outputs. In our structured, definable system, brawl, we have shown that some element of chance pervades. Something "random" occurs.

We've done empirical testing, and we've made simple observations of general gameplay that support it as well. We're ingrained in our belief system because we've seen our hypothesis demonstrated experimentally time and time again. Then, along comes someone else, someone who opposes our belief system. Someone who says "I don't think tripping is random." Well that's great. If this person happened to show us something notable to change our minds, maybe we'd even praise them. But all you have done is said that you don't think tripping is random. You've given insubstantial possible explanations for the testing we've done that supports our point. You've supplied little-to-no support of your own. The only believably valid thing you've done is attacked the idea of randomness.

Even that has received at least one valid refute from our side. mugwhump put it quite well a page or so back. Brawl isn't a natural system, it's a created, controlled system. The game mechanics work in a programmed, intended way. Certain inputs give you expectable outputs. Pressing left doesn't make me do a somersault and then fall through the stage or levitate. It makes me move left. The game is structured in a very simple input-output way. We tell the game to do something, and it does that thing. It's a user interface designed to react correctly to our inputs. If IDENTICAL inputs provide different outputs, then there is something out of our control at play here. There is something that decides, ambiguously, if we trip or not.

Now here we are, comfortably believing what we've shown to be true through experimentation. An argument we can easily refute comes our way. Why should we give a flying **** about what that argument says if we can, without even trying, refute everything it says with our empirical testing. Why should we listen to you if you can't give any substantial rebuttal to our beliefs other than "you COULD be wrong"

OF COURSE WE COULD BE WRONG. Maybe we are. But you can't just waltz in here and say "you could be wrong" and expect praise. We don't care that we could be wrong. We've shown, for now at least, that what we believe is plausible, that it seems to hold. Sure, there could be some variable we haven't taken into account that explains all of this. But unless you're going to TELL us what that is, then why should we care what you say? Of course we can be wrong. That fact alone shouldn't make us believe every crackpot who comes along with some lack-of-an-explanation for phenomena we have at least somewhat accurately described.

Get off your horse and down to reality. And stop posting the same thing over and over again. We don't need 5 of these threads.

 

[rageagainst]

... guys either this guy is in denial tripping is random and is a COMPLETE AND UTTER FAILING IDIOT (the kind that supported jim crow laws, nazis, and the crusades, because they are so blinded by their utter stupidity that they are not only useless but destructive!) or a troll. I'm leaning towards troll but its probably a bit of both.

after reading 2 pages of this thread I realized that no one could be THAT stupid to keep backing their argument that tripping is not random and the tooth fairy does indeed exist, and gives responses that don't make any sense, making him a troll.. good job guys you pushed his post to 6 pages

 

[Valken]

Sry I'm late, what did I miss?

Oh so basically you're so hell bent on not allowing me to voice my oppinion without flaming me, because you've put alot of time and effort to try and prove that your way is right.

So if I turn out to be right than that means what?

All that time and effort and silly videos is worthless compared to my simple, thought out, and much more plausable suggestion.


Here's the facts.

Either one of us has an equal chance of being right because no body knows the truth. You are claiming it's random, I claim that it's not. You have proof that it's random, I have more logical thoughts. You can't prove randomness so basically we're on even playing field.

So let's look at the main deciding factor.

Us all being die hard SSB fans... Do you honestly think they would put a random trip in the game everyone has been looking foward to for years and years?

 

[SilintNinjya]

while i am convinced tripping is random, im not convinced it has the same percentage of chance for every type of movement. for example, if you mash the joystick left and right, i think it might have a higher chance than if you gently move the joystick.

my only basis for this is that, the more i play the game, the less i trip.