Evolution vs Creationism

[AltF4]

I'm having trouble imagining an omnipotent being who failed at making humans and had to try again.

 

[SSBbo]

snex, did i say humans are different? i ran tons of different situations based on the magnetic feild, asteroids and war-strategies... i've been preparing our extinction for quite some time now.

variola, do plenty of meteorites wipe out the majority of species on earth?

and altf4, i'm thinking as if he didn't want to be entirly involved, and heck, the mass extinction probably effected mankinds ancestors in a drastic way. without the mass extinction, it's probable that we wouldn't be here.

 

[snex]

snex, did i say humans are different? i ran tons of different situations based on the magnetic feild, asteroids and war-strategies... i've been preparing our extinction for quite some time now.

variola, do plenty of meteorites wipe out the majority of species on earth?

there have been at least 5 mass extinctions in the past (mass meaning > 75% of all life). only one has been so far tied to an asteroid. and it wasnt even the worst. the worst mass extinction ever was during the permian.

and if humans arent different, that means that god will one day wipe us out too. and that means we arent what he actually wants just as much as the dinosaurs werent. thats not exactly a nice god, is it?

 

[SSBbo]

there have been at least 5 mass extinctions in the past (mass meaning > 75% of all life). only one has been so far tied to an asteroid. and it wasnt even the worst. the worst mass extinction ever was during the permian.

and if humans arent different, that means that god will one day wipe us out too. and that means we arent what he actually wants just as much as the dinosaurs werent. thats not exactly a nice god, is it?

1. in the bible you see that god doesn't always think "nice" is what he has to be.
2. it says in the bible that were getting wiped out.
3. it also says that earth is a hellacious place that no one would want to stay, which is definatly true.

also, you've brought up my interest in mass extinctions, i only really knew the thaw after the ice age, the asteroid wiping out the dinasours, and a severe drought during dinosaur times (forgot what period, it was an earlier period though).

 

[snex]

1. in the bible you see that god doesn't always think "nice" is what he has to be.
2. it says in the bible that were getting wiped out.

its a good thing this god fellow is a fictional character then, isnt it? because if he existed, we would be morally bound to oppose him. just like hitler, this character revels in wanton and senseless destruction of innocent people. he is not somebody to be admired.

3. it also says that earth is a hellacious place that no one would want to stay, which is definatly true.

life is what you make it. maybe the reason it sucks is because religious people cant seem to give up their delusions. most atheists i know are a lot happier than theists are.

 

[SSBbo]

its a good thing this god fellow is a fictional character then, isnt it? because if he existed, we would be morally bound to oppose him. just like hitler, this character revels in wanton and senseless destruction of innocent people. he is not somebody to be admired.



life is what you make it. maybe the reason it sucks is because religious people cant seem to give up their delusions. most atheists i know are a lot happier than theists are.

when i say "wiped out" i mean taken off this hellacious place called earth.

also, i have a great life. i might not be able to get a girlfriend, but when i'm not thinking about how stupid politicians are, life is great.

 

[EC_Joey]

What I'm seeing in SSBbo is the typical belief that humans are "special" in some way, that we are favored by God, and put on this Earth to lord it over everything else.

Bull****. Humans are animals too. God didn't wipe out the dinosaurs in order to make room for humans. It's just as likely a race of dolphins developed our capacity for higher thought, and we were mindlessly going about our business like our primate cousins. It's all up to luck of the draw, don't play it out like a divine force commanded a giant rock to hit the Earth. Mass extinction isn't a sign of God. What happened to "God loves all creatures"? Did he suddenly stop loving dinosaurs because they tended to eat mammals like us?

I'm also getting the impression that you think humans existed at the same time as dinosaurs...

 

[BFDD]

Why would god bother to send an asteroid, couldn't he just poof away the dinosaurs he is all powerful so he doesn't need a giant rock to kill things. And what happened to god being perfect, if he made a mistake with the dinosaurs then he could have made a mistake in "writing" the bible. Or maybe he just got bored with his toys like a child would and decide it would be more fun to smash them.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

well 1st off god didn't write the bible the old testament was written by moses and the new one was written by the twelve apostles.

also haven't you guys heard of heaven? thats is probably the reason most people choose to believe in god rather than turn atheist. it is the promise of eternal life. A mass execution would simply take us to that place for ever every human. Real Christians would not fight god if he brought about the apocalypse because It is something we have been taught to accept and if we do we get to go to heaven.

And a little FYI DNA does not mean theres life viruses have DNA but aren't considered living things.

 

[SSBbo]

What I'm seeing in SSBbo is the typical belief that humans are "special" in some way, that we are favored by God, and put on this Earth to lord it over everything else.

you may see it that way, but i don't think we're special at all, i think we're like animals with more brainpower.

heck, i might even say that we're worse than animals, at least they don't murder their own families (unless they're a canniblistic species that can't support the needs of their offspring).

also, aurturito, the christians that believe in god just because of heaven are self-centered dirt-bags.

*edit* if he poofed away the dinosaurs, it would show that an all-powerful being is involved (in the fossil record), and people that otherwise would be atheist might turn to religion, crowding heaven with people that have weak faith.

 

[snex]

*edit* if he poofed away the dinosaurs, it would show that an all-powerful being is involved (in the fossil record), and people that otherwise would be atheist might turn to religion, crowding heaven with people that have weak faith.

if god wanted us to use faith instead of reason, he would have put us in a universe where faith led to useful results and reason didnt. its just that simple. reason WORKS, so if any gods existed, they would be smart enough to know that reason would be the way to find them - not faith.

faith has never found anything ever.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It doesn't really make them self-centered dirt-bags its just something that strengthens faith.

And animals do murder there own families. A male lion chases the cubs away when they become older if the cubs ever come back like Simba ( it actually happens) they sometimes kill there father.

only 2% of the world is atheist it wouldn't over crowd heaven. I believe the reason god doesn't just magically destroy things is because it would bring fear to humans. make them think that if you don't do what god wants you to do he'll just decided to turn you inside out one day and pour salt and lemon on you and god doesn't want us to fear him he wants us to love him.

 

[SSBbo]

i think he wants us to use faith and reason, but faith is what gets you into heaven, reason helps you better understand the universe (which i love doing, the science channel might as well be my only t.v. channel).

lemme simulate the next reply: "so, Bo, you think reason is bad?!"

No, i just think that if there was indefinate proof that god existed, every would reject any other argument (even one that they would believe had there been no proof of god), and thus people that don't neccesarily want to believe in god would, becausethey want eternal happiness.

if you don't do what god wants you to do he'll just decided to turn you inside out one day and pour salt and lemon on you and god doesn't want us to fear him he wants us to love him.

and nature doesn't hurt people either?!
I have already said "hell is a mindset" in another related argument, but still, i've been to the point where, 300 yards out at sea, i was preparing to inhale all the seawater i could to stop the constant getting thrown under and back to the surface again, trying with all my might trying to suck in any little bit of air.

suffering is a part of everyone's life, no matter what religion you have.

 

[snex]

if reason led to god, we wouldnt believe in him because it would get us into heaven, we would believe because the proof would be right there. it would be as undeniable as the sky being blue.

its stupid to claim that the only way to discover god is to use faith, which never reliably leads to *anything.* if you are born into a hindu family and you use faith, youll find the wrong gods. how the hell is that supposed to be a good thing?

 

[victra♥]

only 2% of the world is atheist it wouldn't over crowd heaven. I believe the reason god doesn't just magically destroy things is because it would bring fear to humans. make them think that if you don't do what god wants you to do he'll just decided to turn you inside out one day and pour salt and lemon on you and god doesn't want us to fear him he wants us to love him.

So instead of torturing you now for a finite amount of time because you didn't do what he wanted you to do, he'd rather reject you to Hell so you can be torture till the end of time? That makes sense.

Also, 2% of the world may be atheist, but around 70% of the world are not Christian. Since the Christian God is so vindictive and envious, he'd punish roughly 3/4 of the human population for believing another God. Nice all loving God you got there.

No, i just think that if there was indefinate proof that god existed, every would reject any other argument (even one that they would believe had there been no proof of god), and thus people that don't neccesarily want to believe in god would, becausethey want eternal happiness.

This always got me thinking. If you had a son or daughter, or any family member for the matter, reject your God and was sent to Hell when they died, how could you be happy in Heaven? Would you still be eternally happy while you know below you someone dear to you is in immense pain? Just a thought...

 

[SSBbo]

if reason led to god, we wouldnt believe in him because it would get us into heaven, we would believe because the proof would be right there.

exactly.

right now your like "what does he mean by that?!"

if there was proof, it would be a commonly known fact that he exists. he intends for you to believe the bible, even if there isn't proof.

example: there wasn't enough proof to put o.j. behind bars, but many people believe he was guilty.

 

[Aesir]

^ Then god isn't a very smart thing, sounds you like you believe in a deceptive god.

Why would god create a world which makes the idea of his existence very unlikely? It's almost like he wants people to be ****ed to hell. If god really created everything why create the universe the way it is? Why not have the earth as the center of the universe? how come there's no overwhelming evidence for a designer?

A god who's all seeing all knowing would be able to see this that humans would discover and be scientific yet he goes out and throws all these things that point away from his existance? Sounds deceptive to me.

 

[SSBbo]

^ Then god isn't a very smart thing, sounds you like you believe in a deceptive god.

Why would god create a world which makes the idea of his existence very unlikely? It's almost like he wants people to be ****ed to hell. If god really created everything why create the universe the way it is? Why not have the earth as the center of the universe? how come there's no overwhelming evidence for a designer?

A god who's all seeing all knowing would be able to see this that humans would discover and be scientific yet he goes out and throws all these things that point away from his existance? Sounds deceptive to me.

deceptive it may seem, but he wants to weed out people that truly wouldn't trust that god exists, unless there was "overwelming evidence."

like i said before: if you don't believe in the bible, you shouldn't believe in god, thus why put evidence.

 

[adumbrodeus]

expelled is a steaming pile of dog **** PROPAGANDA. it is NOT science. scientists have not yet discovered how life first began, but so what? scientists have also not yet discovered why ice is slippery, or why ice floats on water. does that mean god is the cause? no, it means scientists are working on the problem.

labeling your ignorance "god" is both bad science and bad theology.

Yes they have...

Ice is slippery because when you touch it to something (relatively) warm a thin layer of ice melts forming water, which fills in the contours of the ice, causing less friction.

Ice floats in water because when it freezes it forms a crystalline structure which is less dense then water is.

Still, the proper explination of abiogenesis is "we have no idea".

 

[SSBbo]

Yes they have...

Ice is slippery because when you touch it to something (relatively) warm a thin layer of ice melts forming water, which fills in the contours of the ice, causing less friction.

Ice floats in water because when it freezes it forms a crystalline structure which is less dense then water is.

Still, the proper explination of abiogenesis is "we have no idea".

adumbrodeus, i agree with every reply i've ever read of yours. enter the DWYP.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

So instead of torturing you now for a finite amount of time because you didn't do what he wanted you to do, he'd rather reject you to Hell so you can be torture till the end of time? That makes sense.

Also, 2% of the world may be atheist, but around 70% of the world are not Christian. Since the Christian God is so vindictive and envious, he'd punish roughly 3/4 of the human population for believing another God. Nice all loving God you got there.


This always got me thinking. If you had a son or daughter, or any family member for the matter, reject your God and was sent to Hell when they died, how could you be happy in Heaven? Would you still be eternally happy while you know below you someone dear to you is in immense pain? Just a thought...

well you actually don't get sent that easily if you don't do what he wants you get put in purgatory where you don't even get tortured.

the Muslim and Jewish god is the same god as the Cristian god that actually puts us over 50%. And just because you don't believe in the right god it doesn't mean you'll get sent to hell.

I could be happy yes. We are supposed to love god above all things and even if a family member gets sent to hell once the apocalypse comes everyone gets a 2nd chance.

^ Then god isn't a very smart thing, sounds you like you believe in a deceptive god.

Why would god create a world which makes the idea of his existence very unlikely? It's almost like he wants people to be ****ed to hell. If god really created everything why create the universe the way it is? Why not have the earth as the center of the universe? how come there's no overwhelming evidence for a designer?

A god who's all seeing all knowing would be able to see this that humans would discover and be scientific yet he goes out and throws all these things that point away from his existance? Sounds deceptive to me.

*sigh* there are no instant tickets to hell. I'm not sure why god made a universe that makes "his existence very unlikely" no one knows what god is planing maybe he just wanted to see what choices people make thats the reason he gave us free will. He is all knowing and all powerful not all seeing and I'm not sure what these things that point away from his existence are.

 

[SSBbo]

WHOA! i for the first time, agree with arturito.
if he wanted everyone to make exactly the same choices and believe exactly the same thing, he wouldn't have put us here.

i might be wrong, but i'm pretty sure it says basically god put us here cuz he was bored. i would be bored too if i had all the power in the universe (that didn't exist at this point) but didn't do anything with it.

and yes, what point's away from his existence?

 

[Aesir]

*sigh* there are no instant tickets to hell. I'm not sure why god made a universe that makes "his existence very unlikely" no one knows what god is planing maybe he just wanted to see what choices people make thats the reason he gave us free will. He is all knowing and all powerful not all seeing and I'm not sure what these things that point away from his existence are.

1. If you deny the existence of the holy spirit you can never be forgiven, Jesus states it twice in the NT.

2. Again he set this up for failure then, by creating virtually no evidence of his existence he should have for saw his very existence become a debate this sounds like a very deceitful person who only cares about people who throw their undying allegiance towards him.

3. If God is Omniscient how do we have free will?

4. All seeing falls under omniscient. Seeing is another way of knowing as in he sees everything that's going to happen. I was just putting emphasis on it.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

^
1. Well I'm not sure about that it actually sounds true but I'm going to ask a few people tomorrow then again Jesus is not god to everyone.

2. He didn't set me up to fail. Thats pretty much all I can say.

3. Him being Omniscient has nothing to do with loosing your free will just because you know of something doesn't mean you have the power to stop it. And yes god does have the power to stop you but he chooses not to.

4. Omniscient means all knowing not all seeing

 

[Aesir]

2. He didn't set me up to fail. Thats pretty much all I can say.

Again it's deceptive if he truly honestly existed why would he create such obvious deniable things to his existence? It's seems like favoritism almost. He favors the ones who ultimately accept the bibles word as his divine authority

3. Him being Omniscient has nothing to do with loosing your free will just because you know of something doesn't mean you have the power to stop it. And yes god does have the power to stop you but he chooses not to.

God gave humanity free will, however he knows all. So he knows our actions before we do them, that in it self is a paradox and negates free will. If god is all knowing we can't have free will.

4. Omniscient means all knowing not all seeing

I used it as another term of knowing.

Seeing is another way of knowing as in he sees everything that's going to happen. I was just putting emphasis on it. <-- I don't literally mean SEEING as with eyes, it's a parallel to knowledge.

 

[Deleted member]

Fundamental points people are forgetting:

1 - God and religion are not synonymous - if one were to believe in a God it does not make one inherently religious

2 - Omniscience and omnipotence are commonly attributed to Christianity, not necessarily the higher power one may feel that exists

3 - As corollary to 2: The theory of multiverses, or failed attempts at making the perfect universe, is entirely possible - seeing as how we have already established that the creator is not necessarily all-seeing or all-knowing

 

[EC_Joey]

We haven't established that the creator is not necessarily all-knowing, some in this thread believe he is omniscient.

We're back to the beginning. SSBbo is asking for evidence that disproves the existence of God, but the burden of proof is on those who claim God exists. There is no satisfactory evidence for either side, give it up.

 

[BFDD]

So if we argue that god is not the Christian god then there is absolutely no reason to believe, because heaven and hell are also religious beliefs.

And if we are talking of the Christian god he is believed to be perfect. Thus we should follow his example if we also want to be perfect. If anyone questions anything I do I should torture them. Hitler already tried to make the apocalypse, what a hero he is, taking all of those Jews from the hell that is earth and sending them to heaven. We really should all follow his example and send as many people to heaven as we can. Might as well blow up a church on a Sunday so all those good people can get to heaven too. It isn't murder it is free transportation.

Seriously, the idea that the Christian god is doing the right thing by committing mass genocide is stupid. And if heaven and hell exist whats wrong with murder? Why try to help people who are sick rather than just putting a bullet in their head?

 

[Aesir]

The Christian, Jewish, Muslim god are all the same god, he's omniscient and omnipotent, all three texts make mention that he's all powerful and all know, he's infallible and perfect. However you can believe and god and not be a member of the Abrahamic religions, such Deism which is a belief that there is a god but he strays from contact with the natural world.

 

[snex]

ssbbo the god you are describing is a god who would send atheists to heaven and everybody else to hell.

since your god KNOWS that there is no evidence for his existence, and he KNOWS that evidence is the only reliable way to discover things, then clearly he WANTS people to use their REASON, and when they do, atheism is the only reasonable choice.

so god will reward those who used the REASON he gave them, not the people who just blindly believe like stupid animals or children.

 

[EC_Joey]

exactly.

right now your like "what does he mean by that?!"

if there was proof, it would be a commonly known fact that he exists. he intends for you to believe the bible, even if there isn't proof.

example: there wasn't enough proof to put o.j. behind bars, but many people believe he was guilty.

According to a majority of the Earth's population, it is a commonly known "fact" that he exists.

You're telling us that we should believe in things that there is no proof for. If that's the case, I believe that you're a certified genius with an immeasurable intellect. Obviously, we can't prove this, but we can certainly prove that you are NOT these things.

The same goes for the Bible. Even though there is no solid proof for what it claims, we can prove that there are many inaccuracies in the Bible that make a large portion of it untrue.

O.J. Simpson got off because the police carried out the investigation so poorly that his lawyers were able to create reasonable doubt in the jury's minds. This is in no way related to proving that the Bible is 100% correct.

 

[BFDD]

A belief in a god without being religious would be a belief in the same god mentioned by Plato and Einstein. Not a being that is all powerful, but some sort of force in the universe that is called god due to a lack of a better word. Though Plato does sometimes refer to it as form of the good or the one.

A being with magical powers can reasonably be considered false, but a force from which all matter was formed is more reasonable. Almost like the big bang theory. Still can't be proved either way but reason can't rule it out.

But really this is a topic about evolution vs. creationism, so talk of a non-Christian god doesn't matter because creationism is a Christian belief.

 

[SSBbo]

Faith relates to the right brain and atheism relates to the left, that basically sums it up.
since i use my left brain and right almost evenly, i have had my doubts, but i choose to believe in God.
it's kinda an oppinion. like abortion. your side on that is definately an oppinion.

 

[EC_Joey]

Faith relates to the right brain and atheism relates to the left, that basically sums it up.
since i use my left brain and right almost evenly, i have had my doubts, but i choose to believe in God.
it's kinda an oppinion. like abortion. your side on that is definately an oppinion.

Bull****, you have no idea how the brain works. Many important mental functions, including reasoning, are spread across both hemispheres. People who have only one hemisphere through surgery do not become atheist if the right hemisphere is removed, and they do not become religious if the left hemisphere is removed. Stop claiming things you know little to nothing about.

 

[Crimson King]

Actually, that whole left and right brain stuff is completely fabricated. We ALL use our brains evenly.

 

[marthanoob]

I've done crude surveys of faith levels based on MBTI personality types.

Turned out that feeling types are far more likely to have faith than thinking types.
Sensing types (mindful of details, respect culture, generally conform) were slightly more likely to have faith than intuitive types (see the big picture, independent, strong convictions).

 

[SSBbo]

I've done crude surveys of faith levels based on MBTI personality types.

Turned out that feeling types are far more likely to have faith than thinking types.
Sensing types (mindful of details, respect culture, generally conform) were slightly more likely to have faith than intuitive types (see the big picture, independent, strong convictions).

i figured. but, oddly, "independant, strong conviction" suits me more than "generally conform".

i didn't know that the "left-brain, right-brain" stuff was made up.

 

[snex]

its not "made up," just extremely exaggerated. there are definitely differences between the hemispheres.

read "phantoms in the brain" by vilayanur ramachandran and "the man who mistook his wife for a hat" by oliver sacks.

 

[EC_Joey]

its not "made up," just extremely exaggerated. there are definitely differences between the hemispheres.

read "phantoms in the brain" by vilayanur ramachandran and "the man who mistook his wife for a hat" by oliver sacks.

He's not going to read those. Those differences between the hemispheres mainly concern how certain mental functions are localized to a specific area in one hemisphere.

 

[Crimson King]

its not "made up," just extremely exaggerated. there are definitely differences between the hemispheres.

read "phantoms in the brain" by vilayanur ramachandran and "the man who mistook his wife for a hat" by oliver sacks.

I meant made up in the sense that some people think only with their right brain and some people think with their left brain. It's one of those vast misconceptions like "Humans only use 10% of their potential brainpower."