EVO legalized Customs, so lets talk about them.

[HeroMystic]

I've tried Fast Fireball in a tournament setting and you really can't use them like the default. They're more like a better version of Falco's laser, more efficient for zoning at the cost of default fireball's versatility.

I personally think we could use more default fireball sets.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, Fast Fireball is different from regular. I am convinced though it's more useful in more matchups because of negative state advantages and due to being a lot harder to powershield. Plus, Scalding FLUDD for me fills in a lot of the zoning potential and more than regular Fireball. Given it is able to put people in the air on hit, you can establish a positional advantage in neutral with Scalding FLUDD, which is the point of running regular Fireballs anyway, except Scalding FLUDD is safer.

 

[Knight Dude]

Gust cape seems like the best choice among those three. But would it be for the best to keep the normal Fireball? I like using the Scalding FLUDD, but I know it's probably not too good for a competitive scene.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Gust cape seems like the best choice among those three. But would it be for the best to keep the normal Fireball? I like using the Scalding FLUDD, but I know it's probably not too good for a competitive scene.

Scalding FLUDD is mad good...what are you talking about? The other FLUDDs are not very useful competitively except in like maybe at most 10 matchups, generously.

IMO the only matchups where I feel regular Fireballs are explicitly better are the Links, Ness, Mac, and DDD. Most of the time, I generally think you're better off zoning with Scalding FLUDD as opposed to Fireballs otherwise, which can do more damage and is actually safer.

 

[Knight Dude]

Scalding FLUDD is mad good...what are you talking about? The other FLUDDs are not very useful competitively except in like maybe at most 10 matchups, generously.

IMO the only matchups where I feel regular Fireballs are explicitly better are the Links, Ness, Mac, and DDD. Most of the time, I generally think you're better off zoning with Scalding FLUDD as opposed to Fireballs otherwise, which can do more damage and is actually safer.

Scalding FLUDD is good? Glad to hear it. I wasn't too sure since I'm not too deep into the competitive scene. But it seemed like everyone else liked the High Pressure for better gimping.

Either way, I'm looking forward to the EVO streams. Hopefully Mario and Mega Man end up somewhere high in the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most good players just airdodge the FLUDD on reaction offstage except in a few niche matchups. FLUDD is mostly only good for pushing people to the ledge if they're camping excessively.

 

[popsofctown]

High Pressure FLUDD was kinda part of the growth process of the game. You rush that 6pool until people develop the answers to it, then you stop 6pooling.

 

[NairWizard]

Scalding FLUDD is the best custom in Mario's set, hands down.

I never use any other FLUDD variant, against any character, not even DK or Luigi.

It's too much of a loss to go without SF.

It's that good.

2312 and 2212 are Mario's best sets, imo.

Scalding FLUDD should always be taken. When Scalding Fludd is taken, Fireballs become less useful, so Fast Fireball should be taken. Shocking Cape and Gust Cape are equally useful (I also like regular Cape to turn people around, because it's hilarious, but Gust Cape does what it does for the most part and a little more in most MUs). Super Jump Punch should never be replaced; you need your best OoS option as well as what is arguably the best recovery.

The other sets are niche. Explosive Jump Punch is strong but the recovery is mehish; the matchups in which you need more KO power (such as vs. DK and vs. Ganondorf) are also the matchups in which you are likely to get straight-up KO'ed offstage, so it's not a winning trade. Just take Shocking Cape there. High Pressure FLUDD is just straight up inferior to Scalding FLUDD. Fire Orb is useless, and Fireballs are useless due to Scalding FLUDD. High Jump Punch has no hitbox and is a really poor choice overall. The better edgeguarding it offers is a gimmick and doesn't even work with Mario's poor offstage hitboxes (compensated for somewhat by Scalding FLUDD and Shocking Cape, I guess) most of the time. It makes Mario's recovery atrocious, and robs him of any onstage utility with the move at all.

Really, there's no reason to use anything other than 2312 and 2212, imo. This has been my experience with customs Mario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Scalding FLUDD is the best custom in Mario's set, hands down.

I never use any other FLUDD variant, against any character, not even DK or Luigi.

It's too much of a loss to go without SF.

It's that good.

2312 and 2212 are Mario's best sets, imo.

Scalding FLUDD should always be taken. When Scalding Fludd is taken, Fireballs become less useful, so Fast Fireball should be taken. Shocking Cape and Gust Cape are equally useful (I also like regular Cape to turn people around, because it's hilarious, but Gust Cape does what it does for the most part and a little more in most MUs). Super Jump Punch should never be replaced; you need your best OoS option as well as what is arguably the best recovery.

The other sets are niche. Explosive Jump Punch is strong but the recovery is mehish; the matchups in which you need more KO power (such as vs. DK and vs. Ganondorf) are also the matchups in which you are likely to get straight-up KO'ed offstage, so it's not a winning trade. Just take Shocking Cape there. High Pressure FLUDD is just straight up inferior to Scalding FLUDD. Fire Orb is useless, and Fireballs are useless due to Scalding FLUDD. High Jump Punch has no hitbox and is a really poor choice overall. The better edgeguarding it offers is a gimmick and doesn't even work with Mario's poor offstage hitboxes (compensated for somewhat by Scalding FLUDD and Shocking Cape, I guess) most of the time. It makes Mario's recovery atrocious, and robs him of any onstage utility with the move at all.

Really, there's no reason to use anything other than 2312 and 2212, imo. This has been my experience with customs Mario.

Yeah, Scalding FLUDD does much of what regular Fireballs do onstage but better. Which is zone people in midrange for safe damage and put you in a favorable position to start your gameplan. Scalding FLUDD + Fast Fireballs together give Mario a legitimately good midrange game, addressing some of his biggest problems in neutral.

I actually think 2332 is optimal in matchups like Ganon where combos into EJP are quite viable, and Gust Cape makes it a lot easier to avoid juggles and edgeguards on demand. It takes some getting used to, but imo the loss of recovery is not the biggest downside to EJP as opposed to less defensive utility and missing combo ending options against some midweight floaty characters.

Also in my opinion, Ness and Little Mac are among the few matchups where default FLUDD actually isn't a joke for edgeguarding, and where the benefits from Scalding FLUDD are actually less in comparison (Ness can absorb it, Little Mac can armor through it). Funny enough, you also want to run default Fireballs against both because of the way you need to space in these matchups. The one custom move you take in these matchups is Gust Cape, which helps you edgeguard.

Also I definitely would prefer regular/HP FLUDD against someone like Duck Hunt or Villager to force him off the stage in neutral. Also HP FLUDD is almost definitely the best option against Wii Fit Trainer running Jumbo Hoop. You might have a point that 2223 is potentially useless, though I still want to try it against someone like Greninja who doesn't get anti-aired very easily by Super Jump Punch and is difficult to usually reach offstage due to his recovery distance.

 

[NairWizard]

Ganon's edgeguarding is quite strong especially with his own customs that let him go deeper than usual; I'd take SJP against Ganon every time, also so that I could also take Shocking Cape instead of Gust Cape since getting aerial KOs on Ganon is easier than getting grounded KOs (dash attack and d-tilt are serious business). The risk of EJP is greater than the risk of Shocking Cape given Ganon's aerial mobility.

I wouldn't run HP FLUDD or FLUDD in the LM matchup as you won't have time to charge it. A short smack with uncharged Scalding is enough to gimp LM if he isn't airdodging it anyway, so to me it sounds like overkill, and it costs you a valuable tool in neutral (Scalding FLUDD catches Mac out of airdodge, and can also make him Counter somewhere without hitting Mario). HP FLUDD has one major benefit in this MU: if Mac uses Counter offstage, he's dead to HP FLUDD, since he can't counter a windbox, but Gust Cape works just as well for this so it doesn't really make sense to overload the tools.

In the Ness MU you do have time to charge, so you have a point. Ness' absorb may be the only reason to run HP FLUDD over Scalding FLUDD in the entire game, now that I think about it.

I'd take Fast Fireballs in both MUs though. Regular Fireball spacing against Mac is asking to be punished on landing (Mac wants you to land, he really does; he'll walk forward and powershield these things). Against Ness it doesn't matter, projectile spacing does nothing against Ness. His f-air clanks, and he can absorb them anyway.

I've never played a good WFT, so I'll take your word for that one, but against Villager I would always take Scalding FLUDD because it gives you a safe way to attack over counter sapling. Windboxing isn't a great way to edgeguard customs Villager since EBT isn't particularly susceptible to windboxes, so getting him offstage may not actually accomplish much. It'd be nice if actually got rid of the sapling instead of just giving you stage presence. Against Villager I may be attempted to take Fireballs, though, because of the way they go over sapling/tree, so there is that.

Against DHD, I'd totally take Scalding FLUDD every time. It's great for detonating can with no damage done to Mario, but I haven't really played a top DHD either, so there might be something that I'm missing.

I will say that all of Mario's customs except Fire Orb are really strong, and you can find some creative ways to use all of his tools, so there are probably many uses for these moves that I'm missing. I haven't even come close to scratching the surface of his customs. They are very deep; it will take many months to a year to fully sort them out.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Whats thw difference between cape and gust cape?

Does gust cape have any kind of nerf or detriment to counteract the fact that it has wind?

 

[HeroMystic]

The Gust Cape is 2 frames slower than Super Cape. It also has a larger recovery while Super Cape's recovery is quite small.

 

[popsofctown]

Ganon's edgeguarding is quite strong especially with his own customs that let him go deeper than usual; I'd take SJP against Ganon every time, also so that I could also take Shocking Cape instead of Gust Cape since getting aerial KOs on Ganon is easier than getting grounded KOs (dash attack and d-tilt are serious business). .

How does taking SJP "allow" you to take Shocking Cape over Gust Cape? Shocking Cape has recovery that's almost as good as Gust Cape, I can barely perceive a difference.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Whats thw difference between cape and gust cape?

Does gust cape have any kind of nerf or detriment to counteract the fact that it has wind?

The larger startup/ending lag as Heromystic cited is the main downside. Matchupwise it's better in basically everything except the Mega Man and Pac Man matchup imo where you most benefit from having a strict reflector and don't have a lot of opportunities to really edgeguard anyway.

How does taking SJP "allow" you to take Shocking Cape over Gust Cape? Shocking Cape has recovery that's almost as good as Gust Cape, I can barely perceive a difference.

I will say, when you run EJP, Gust Gape is almost mandatory because of how it makes your recovery a lot less predictable. Shocking Cape while a good recovery move doesn't give you a lot of mixup offstage as opposed to just boosting your horizontal momentum more or less, while the stalling from Gust Cape has to be reacted to considerably differently when chasing Mario offstage.

@ NairWizard Ganon's edgeguarding doesn't really become deeper with customs. WDK gives him a marginally better horizontal harass option, but he can never actually use it to edgeguard deeper because it can't be B reversed. Dark Fists doesn't really change Ganon's recovery distance, and Dark Vault actually shortens Ganon's horizontal edgeguard range which is bad. Not denying that Shocking Cape's disjointed spacing utility is great in general and really helps a lot in spacing wars, but as someone who primarily plays Ganon and Mario, I am quite certain that Mario prefers Gust Cape against Ganon to address his negative state in the matchup. Mario's damage racking on Ganon is pretty good once he manages to find a way in, and generally speaking the main problem I think Mario has is that Ganon's capitalization is often too overwhelming when Mario often has no other response to it than airdodging.

 

[NairWizard]

How does taking SJP "allow" you to take Shocking Cape over Gust Cape? Shocking Cape has recovery that's almost as good as Gust Cape, I can barely perceive a difference.

Gust Cape is better for coming back due to the windbox.

The Gust Cape is 2 frames slower than Super Cape. It also has a larger recovery while Super Cape's recovery is quite small.

The larger startup/ending lag as Heromystic cited is the main downside. Matchupwise it's better in basically everything except the Mega Man and Pac Man matchup imo where you most benefit from having a strict reflector and don't have a lot of opportunities to really edgeguard anyway.

I like Cape better in certain matchups (the two you named are good examples), but that may be testament to the breadth and versatility of Mario's customs. Cape is easier to use on reaction to certain things (like Pacman or Rosalina's recoveries), and to spin around certain approaches (fun when Pacman tries to go side-b on you).

Mario's customs are such that you can probably justify taking any number of customs in a certain matchup. For example, you could say, hey, High Pressure FLUDD is really good in the Diddy matchup, since it can force Diddy to have to use his volatile up-b instead of just side-bing to the stage for free. But when you get down to it, it's not just about what you gain; there's an opportunity cost for not using the best moves, so you lose something as well. Scalding FLUDD is amazing even in the Diddy MU for having a disjointed answer to Diddy's SH spacing game, and then you realize that it can also hit him out of his side-b for free without the waterbox, AND dispatches the banana. OP.

Another example. Gust Cape is just overall so strong and versatile that I would very rarely want to be without it, even though I like Cape. Cape is so good vs. Olimar, but Gust Cape not only bats the Pikmin away, it does it from further away (being safer), and it also can help you gimp Olimar's predictable recovery. Take Shocking Cape and just kill the Pikmin outright (well, most of them), and gimp Olimar offstage as well.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I personally think we could use more default fireball sets.

Other than the matchups that A2ZOMG provided where default Fireballs are better (Ness/D3/Link/Little Mac), what matchups would you say that using Fireball would yield more rewards as opposed to Fast Fireball? Additionally, which of these sets would have a defined niche/synergy that is not found in any of the other sets?

I also would like to ask everyone if there are any other sets we could make to counter other characters before the deadline (the 17th) arrives. Matchups in which Mario struggles in severely and having pin-point efficiency with all of his custom moves is crucial. Any potential sets we are currently leaving untapped that could change the tides of these particular matchups in Mario's favor? Or at least break even?

Mario

1311
1333
2212
2223
2232
2233
2312
2313
2332
2333

If a set above is colored green, that means it is mostly locked. I feel as though enough discussion has been done on these sets to warrant their validity, and necessity to have them as a slot. If a set above is colored red, then it is still up for debate and discussion.

For set 1311, it is there to specifically counter Ness and Little Mac. However, there seems to be a bit of a debate on the optimal efficiency of the set. And I feel as though more discussion on this would be nice. However, the general premise of the set should stay, as having a counter to Ness and Little Mac is indeed nice...Ness in particular should be worried about, so we should focus on him over Little Mac.

For set 2223, do any of you feel as though the potential deep edgeguarding rewards of having a Shocking Cape + Super Jump set is enough to warrant the loss of one of Mario's most important defensive and combo tools out of his entire arsenal? So far, this seems to be Mario's most controversial set, and is only here for a couple of reasons. The main reason is because it fills a niche that none of his other sets can provide. But unlike his other sets, this one isn't as solid as the others. Mainly because Mario's normal moves don't really supplement an extravagant amount of opportunities in which Mario can go for really deep edgeguards, and because this set somewhat over-relies on the Shocking Cape in order to be effective. What we need to discuss in further details about this set is what matchups it could potentially counter and be especially effective in. Such as Greninja (potentially) as A2ZOMG said.

For set 2333, it seems to be a bit outclassed by set 1333. For further details behind this, check out my post after this one.


Also, I have tried Fire Orb again. Outside of doubles/teams, I find it to be absolutely atrocious for singles. The hitbox is smaller than the fire animation, and it isn't even that big. The startup lag makes it feel like a Falcon Punch, only less damaging and can only be used specifically near a ledge in order to be effective and KO someone. The hitbox doesn't fully connect and lead into the other hits sometimes, and/or you can DI out of it if you are hit by the outer edges of it. You lose a pivotal tool in neutral for having this move over Fast Fireball or the default Fireballs. Even the COM thinks it is bad and will resort to spamming the FLUDD instead of using this move (which is good for testing Scalding FLUDD I guess). Oh, and even if you use it for the one thing it is decently good at? An opponent can still snap to a ledge and the ledge invincibility will allow them to ignore Fire Orb, or the small hitbox of the attack will simply not hit them if they are on the ledge. And you are simply screwed if you mess up your jump and accidentally use this off of the stage.

So unless you plan on using this move for teams, it is severely not worth it. And even then I doubt its validity. Super Jump at least has a niche with Shocking Cape. Fire Orb, on the other hand, just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth no matter how I slice it.


Last things I want to go over are that I am extremely happy with the positive reactions that Scalding FLUDD has been getting. It has done a complete 180, going from that one move that nobody cared about to many people saying it is the best custom at Mario's disposal. That, and I wanted to post this video which shows Mario's custom moves in action and in an effective fashion. The main thing to note is how useful Fast Fireballs can be for poking/setting up combos whenever the opponent is in the downed state, leading to unavoidable pain from things like Explosive Jump Punch!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhanK-GQQMY

 

[A2ZOMG]

Choice of FLUDD vs Little Mac is weird. He's one of the only characters in the game where the faster charging and long ranged edgeguard utility of regular FLUDD is gamechanging. While every variant of FLUDD actually is good against him, default FLUDD I'm convinced is easiest to use to end his stock offstage.

And similarly against Ness, when you edgeguard him with FLUDD, really all you need to do is mess him up just enough so that he can't launch in the angle he wants to (very commonly, you can actually force him to shoot downwards if you're fast). Because regular FLUDD charges faster and doesn't push you back on the ground (meaning it's less necessary to jump when positioning), this also works better for harassing his recovery than HP FLUDD.

None of the fireballs are good against Mac and Ness, just against both of them, you commonly need to jump a lot to avoid their ground options. In Ness's case, he REALLY wants to grab. In LM's case, he just never wants to really be in the air. Default Fireball can punish some of their commitments from air to ground more reliably than the others, which IMO makes them the most applicable in those matchups.

Aside from Greninja hypothetically, 2223 may actually be good against Villager when factoring he is able to D-air Mario out of his default Up-B reliably, and Super Jump's increased distance can give you a better chance of waiting it out before recovering. Though obviously losing combo potential from not running regular Up-B isn't ideal (keeping in mind, he's a floaty midweight like Luigi meaning throw/U-tilt combos don't work well on him. I still have reason to believe though that 2233 has uses against Duck Hunt and Olimar who are definitely more easily comboed due to being lighter weight and you have reason to FLUDD them to the ledge to stop camping, but it needs testing, otherwise people can just fall back on 2212 if EJP proves too difficult to use).

Finally 2223 may actually be potentially important against Donkey Kong. DK is problematic for Mario for many reasons, in part due to his range and damage, but also including his ability to beat Mario's default Up-B offstage with his own Up-B, which simultaneously serves as a combo breaker. HP FLUDD to punish him for Up-Bing out of strings (or even for reading Giant Punch, which puts him in freefall) actually is important to consider, but even more important is that his recovery is actually pretty predictable even though he gets good distance, which you can take advantage of with deep Shocking Cape/HP FLUDD edgeguards.

tl;dr we have work cut out learning matchups/mechanics. I believe we have the sets we want, but we need to actually get familiar with using all of Mario's customs effectively, given how all of them require him to play differently.

 

[kesterstudios]

i think there needs to be 1 or 2 more sets with the regular fireball. i don't find the fast fireball as useful as a2zomg says, but don't get me wrong its still a great custom move. i remember watching nyani playing Mario in this one tournament and she was switching between fast fireball and normal fireball between matches. maybe there should be a set that has 1313 and 1312. i think these should replace the ones that are up for debate on top. that's just me though

 

[NairWizard]

Just found this out: Scalding FLUDD does not reflect Gordos.

 

[HeroMystic]

Makes sense. Scalding FLUDD only does 1% damage. Gordos require at least 2% to be reflected.

 

[NairWizard]

Fireballs may be the best thing in the Dedede matchup after all. They are very good against Gordo space control. I was thinking that you could just use Scalding Fludd for it, but you can't. If you're taking Gust Cape you can, but if you're taking Shocking Cape (which is a great option against Dedede's low airspeed), you have no quick response to Gordo space control without regular Fireballs.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Okay, I went back and tallied up "votes" for each of the mentioned sets. Both in this topic, and from the
official custom moveset project posted by Amazing Ampharos. Here's what I ended up with, assuming I tallied everything correctly:

2332: 6 votes. Most popular set.
1313: 4 votes.
2313: 4 votes.
1333: 3 votes.
2212: 3 votes.
2223: 3 votes.
2233: 3 votes.
2312: 3 votes.
-----------------------------------------------------
2333: 3 votes. 4 positive, 1 negative.
1311: 2 votes.
1312: 2 votes.
2232: 2 votes.
-----------------------------------------------------
1113: 1 vote.
1332: 1 vote.
2113: 1 vote.
2323: 1 vote.
1322: 0 votes. 1 positive, 1 negative.

I have made two lines between the most popular sets from the rest. Green sets are most likely going to stay. Yellow sets need to be called into question, and decided upon if they should be a part of Mario's main sets. Red are, unless proven otherwise, currently not valid enough to be a part of Mario's main sets.

From here, there are a couple of things we can do before finalizing our sets. But I am going to start off by talking about the sets themselves.



2332 is easily the most loved set. Versatile, strong, racks up damage well, doesn't sacrifice much recovery thanks to Gust Cape, and overall seems to be one of Mario's best sets. It is staying for sure.

1313 is one of Mario's most popular default Fireball sets. Boasting two edgeguarding options, and having his best OoS option. Overall this set is very defensive in nature. Therefore, I have decided to re-add it to the list of Mario's sets.

2313 is very similar to 1313, and just as popular. Having mostly the same strengths as 1313 and only trading the type of Fireball you use, I feel as though both sets have earned a place to stay.

1333 is Mario's other most popular default Fireball set. Said to be great against King DeDeDe and Link by A2ZOMG, it has two edgeguarding options and trades recovery and a better OoS for more raw damage and KO power instead. I can see this being good against heavy/large characters that rely on projectiles, although there aren't many of those in Smash 4. I feel as though 1313 has more synergy when comparing the two, however. But if people want this set to stay, it can.

2212 is one of my preferred sets. The set itself is essentially a straight upgrade from Mario's default set in most matchups. With Scalding FLUDD's ability to rack up damage, combined with Shocking Cape's ability to score KO's, it is extremely versatile. You also have access to Mario's best OoS option, and Fast Fireballs for long-range pokes. This set aims to be effective in all areas of combat, only having a slightly weaker recovery due to its lack of Gust Cape.

2223 is a controversial, niche set. But it aims to be effective in an area that no other set can replicate. With the combination of HP FLUDD for pushing people off of the stage, and Shocking Cape + Super Jump for edgeguarding, this set allows Mario to go very deep offstage and net KOs that would otherwise be impossible for him. However, it comes with some huge costs: losing combos, an OoS option, loses a hitbox when trying to recover, and relies a bit too much on Shocking Cape. Not to mention, Mario's general set of tools don't really put the opponent in a good enough position to even use Shocking Cape most of the time. Despite all of these things, it seems decently popular, and it could potentially be Mario's best set in certain matchups, though this has yet to be proven.

2233 is similar to set 2223, but focuses much more on stage control. Able to trap opponents near the ledges of the stage with HP FLUDD, and then having two finishing options in either Shocking Cape or Explosive Jump Punch, this set is definitely powerful. It is also similar to the most popular Mario set, 2332, but sacrifices recovery for more KO potential. This is one of Mario's worse sets in regards to recovery, so be very careful, and stay on the stage as much as you can.

2312, like 2212, is essentially a straight upgrade from Mario's default set in most matchups. However, the small difference in your choice of cape is actually pretty big. With this set, you have more recovery than 2212 and you also gain a gimping option. However, unlike some of Mario's other popular sets, 2312 trades KO options and and having a specific gameplan for scoring KOs and instead opts for versatility and defense. It lacks two gimping options compared to 1313/2313, and it lacks Shocking Cape compared to 2212. This means that it has to rely on Mario's sup-par KOing options in order to win, just like default Mario. However, if you play your cards right, you can wear your opponent out enough to make them vulnerable to these options, as this set's defense is where it shines.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2333 is a set that is popular, but unlike its brother set 1333, it seems to lack a solid gameplan when compared to it. It has two gimping options and a KO option, but like set 1333, I don't think the set has much synergy. And unlike 1333, it seems to lack the type of Fireball which would be essential for at least two of Mario's matchups: Link and King DeDeDe. So, despite being popular, I have decided to call this set into question. Is it really worth having both sets? So far, it seems like we might be better off keeping 1333 instead, but I will leave this up for other people to decide. Either way, it has been removed from Mario's list of sets for the time being.

1311 seems to be valuable in regards to countering Little Mac and Ness. And it seems to have enough points in its favor to warrant needing a set. The only thing that holds it back are popularity, and if 1311 is really necessary if we are going to have 1313 as a set. However, the longer range and faster charging time do seem to make it more useful than 1313 for these particular matches. What I wish to know is what other people would prefer. Either way, this set seems useful enough, so I will add it for now.

1312 is a brother set to 2312, having similar strengths and weaknesses, only differing by your choice of fireball. The only thing it loses out on is popularity, as Fast Fireball is more popular than the default. So it faces stiff competition from it. Additionally, Fast Fireballs are arguably more defensive than the default fireballs, and default fireballs only seem useful in certain matchups. Particularly ones where you don't wish to be on the ground against your opponent. And, so far, this has only been mentioned for the Little Mac/Ness/Link/King DeDeDe matchups. And for Little Mac and Ness, set 1311 tries to cover for them. So this sets faces competition from both sets 2312 and 1311. Which makes me unsure if it is warranted or not.

Lastly, set 2232 is similar to the popular sets 2332 and 2233, but it offers an interesting niche that the other two don't quite replicate. Raw damage, on all fronts. With the combination of Scalding FLUDD, Explosive Jump Punch, and Shocking Cape all in one set, this set has the highest damage output and KO potential out of all of Mario's sets. Making it a scary force to be reckoned with on the stage. I say on the stage, because like set 2233, the recovery on this set is very poor. However, I like this set, and I believe in this set's potential. It is the only set that combines both Scalding FLUDD and Shocking Cape, and while it loses out on recovery, it is probably the one set that will surprise people the most in regards to Mario's KO potential. Therefore, I am adding it to the list, despite (seemingly) not being as popular as some of the other sets.



So with all of that out of the way, here's what we have now:

Mario

1311*
1313*
1333
2212
2223*
2232* (only due to little representation/popularity but is otherwise good)
2233
2312
2313
2332
--------
1312*
2333*

Sets marked in asterisks are up for the debate. The other sets, as far as I am concerned, no longer need to be discussed in regards to their popularity or validity.


What needs to be discussed:

1311 vs 1313. Are both necessary? 1311 seems to have the edge due to countering Little Mac and Ness.

1333 vs 2333. Are both necessary? 1333 seems to take precedence over 2333 so far.

2312 vs 1312. Are both necessary? 2312 seems to have the edge in defense and synergy.

2223 vs default fireball sets in particular. Is it work risking a potential set, albeit a very niche one, over a default fireball set which is bound to be more popular initially? Honestly, I would wait to see 2223 in action before completely debunking it myself. However, a good portion of people also want more default Fireball sets, and I don't want to ignore their opinions either.

New sets to explore? We seem to lack a set that has both the default Fireball and Shocking Cape. Would anyone like a set like that? What matchups would it be useful in? What characters would it potentially counter?


Example sets being 1212, 1213, 1232, and 1233.

 

[NairWizard]

I think that 2312 and 2212 are Mario's optimal sets, BUT I have been convinced that Fireball is a reasonable alternative to Fast Fireball, despite Scalding FLUDD being somewhat of an overlap. Fireball is just really good sometimes for the mixup/pressure/get in sometimes. If it's true against Dedede, it must be true against more characters. So I think we should have 1312 and/or 1212, maybe both.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I finally got a chance to do some (albeit limited) testing of Mario's customs and sets vs. my training partner. These are my thoughts.

I still only like default fireball. I think the others are trash.

I only like default Up-B. I can see Explosive as having a place but honestly I think it's trash.

Gust Cape is probably the go-to and I did test out shocking cape but I feel like it was relatively underwhelming as an aerial forward option, and on the ground it's only useful as a potential kill move from run. (A niche that jump-cancelled turnaround upsmash already fills)

SCALDING FLUDD IS THE NUTS. OMG. IN MY LIMITED TESTING THIS MOVE HAS BEEN GODLIKE AND I DON'T SEE MYSELF EVER, LITERALLY EVER, USING ANOTHER FLUDD. (I was testing this out in the Ness matchup, which Fludd is pretty good in) Vs. Ness I could literally just fire the fludd as he had to jump back to stage, which would stop his jump and knock him out of ledge range. Easiest capes/fairs of my life. Let's not forget about how this move has almost no lag and covers a huge horizontal distance in front of you that mario previously had no way to deal with. It's only downside is that if you miss you're vulnerable to projectiles, but that is true of Fludd already.

Here are my official custom move recommendations.

1312: This is probably going to be my go-to set for most matchups unless I find some kind of fault in scalding Fludd. I think each of these specials are in general going to be the best in slot.

1313: This is my set if for some reason scalding fludd doesn't work out. Essentially Mario+

That's literally all I will probably use in tournament, but here's a few thoughts on a few other sets.

2312: I hate fast fireballs but if you like it this is the set I would recommend. Thankfully scalding fludd will allow you to cover yourself as you fall because that is one of the best applications of neutral fireball.

1332: EJP set. You'll be an offensive powerhouse but you'll have few ways to reset back to neutral (which scalding fludd dominates btw) I wish I could love EJP because as everyone should know up-b is my favorite move ever, but outside of true combos the move just feels so bad. But, I feel like the move has potential so who knows.

Any of the scalding fludds above could easily be replaced with high-pressure fludd/neutral fludd if you wanted. I would literally not recommend any other set. (I feel like shocking cape doesn't offer enough for Mario)

 

[NairWizard]

I finally got a chance to do some (albeit limited) testing of Mario's customs and sets vs. my training partner. These are my thoughts.

I still only like default fireball. I think the others are trash.

I only like default Up-B. I can see Explosive as having a place but honestly I think it's trash.

Gust Cape is probably the go-to and I did test out shocking cape but I feel like it was relatively underwhelming as an aerial forward option, and on the ground it's only useful as a potential kill move from run. (A niche that jump-cancelled turnaround upsmash already fills)

SCALDING FLUDD IS THE NUTS. OMG. IN MY LIMITED TESTING THIS MOVE HAS BEEN GODLIKE AND I DON'T SEE MYSELF EVER, LITERALLY EVER, USING ANOTHER FLUDD. (I was testing this out in the Ness matchup, which Fludd is pretty good in) Vs. Ness I could literally just fire the fludd as he had to jump back to stage, which would stop his jump and knock him out of ledge range. Easiest capes/fairs of my life. Let's not forget about how this move has almost no lag and covers a huge horizontal distance in front of you that mario previously had no way to deal with. It's only downside is that if you miss you're vulnerable to projectiles, but that is true of Fludd already.

Here are my official custom move recommendations.

1312: This is probably going to be my go-to set for most matchups unless I find some kind of fault in scalding Fludd. I think each of these specials are in general going to be the best in slot.

1313: This is my set if for some reason scalding fludd doesn't work out. Essentially Mario+

That's literally all I will probably use in tournament, but here's a few thoughts on a few other sets.

2312: I hate fast fireballs but if you like it this is the set I would recommend. Thankfully scalding fludd will allow you to cover yourself as you fall because that is one of the best applications of neutral fireball.

1332: EJP set. You'll be an offensive powerhouse but you'll have few ways to reset back to neutral (which scalding fludd dominates btw) I wish I could love EJP because as everyone should know up-b is my favorite move ever, but outside of true combos the move just feels so bad. But, I feel like the move has potential so who knows.

Any of the scalding fludds above could easily be replaced with high-pressure fludd/neutral fludd if you wanted. I would literally not recommend any other set. (I feel like shocking cape doesn't offer enough for Mario)

Yeah, I want to cosign this (the parts about Scalding FLUDD). It's one of the best moves in the game. I think every single set should run it, personally. The other FLUDDs are really underwhelming by comparison. They are gimmicky. Scalding FLUDD is a real move.

I also feel that way about default up-b, the others are trash.

I'm curious why you don't think Fast Fireball is useful, though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ DtJ XeroXen it's worth noting, in the custom games I played against you, I think I generally did best when I was running Shocking Cape (more specifically, I think I got the best results with 2212). I see Shocking Cape as a great move almost strictly because it's a disjointed attack that does great damage. I felt like in our Mario matches that with Shocking Cape I was overall a bigger threat when Shocking Cape could put me ahead in aerial exchanges, and furthermore while it's not quite as versatile as Gust Cape for recovery, it's still pretty good for altering your momentum on-stage when combined with B reverses.

 

[popsofctown]

I'm glancing through the custom special list and seeing a lot of ones that end in 3. But I think as a group we've mostly decided that Scalding is the new normal and that really specific thought about what specific matchup the set serves is necessary to justify a cold fludd. If there's kinks in the list I think that's what they pertain to.


Shocking cape takes some practice to get the hang of it, and it also drastically varies in usefulness depending on the matchup. Don't write it off right away.

That said, the truth is somewhere in the middle compared to how much I used to love Shocking Cape before, I've realized that against some really good gimpers Gust cape really does recover better like Solidsense and A2 said. But shocking cape can give you some really powerful options against characters that aren't gimping machines.

 

[NairWizard]

I'm mathematically minded, so here's what I propose. This might be ground that we've covered before, but I wanted to take a bottom-up approach and demonstrate my thought process.

We have 10 sets to work with. Since Fast Fireball and Fireball seem about equally desired by different players (some saying Fast Fireball doesn't have much worth; others saying Fast Fireball is clearly superior), with Fast Fireball slightly edging out Fireball, let's split the sets 6 and 4. 6 with Fast Fireball, and 4 with Fireball.

Shocking Cape and Gust Cape are equally viable, so split both sets in half with the capes:

3 of the Fast Fireball sets have Gust Cape, and 3 have Shocking Cape.
2 of the Fireball sets have Gust Cape, and 2 have Shocking Cape.

At this point we have:

13
13
12
12
23
23
23
22
22
22

Scalding FLUDD + default Super Jump Punch is probably the best thing ever, so make 4 sets with that (one with Fast Fireball + Gust Cape, one with Fast Fireball + Shocking Cape, one with Fireball + Gust Cape, one with Fireball + Shocking Cape):

1312
13
1212
12
2312
23
23
2212
22
22

EJP seems favored by some, so let's give 2 sets that. It seems to go best with Gust Cape, rather than Shocking Cape, for the better recovery, so that works out conveniently. For the set with Fast Fireball, Scalding FLUDD seems like the appropriate choice (since it somewhat replaces default Fireball functionality). For the set without Fast Fireball, I'd still say that Scalding FLUDD is the best choice. It's a nice "get away from me" option offstage even without any charge, and I think if you're going to take EJP you should have plenty of those. So:

1312
1332
1212
12
2312
2332
23
2212
22
22

Now for Super Jump and HP FLUDD.

Super Jump is niche, but some people might want to try it, and we have room for sets with it. I'm going to say that it's niche enough to only merit one set. Super Jump doesn't go well with HP FLUDD, I think, because it reduces your onstage options way too much. Without Scalding FLUDD or your up-b OOS, your offstage game will be significantly worse. Fast Fireball seems better for gimping recoveries than regular Fireball, so the set with SJ should have Fast Fireball. It should also have Shocking Cape because with such a good recovery you don't need another good recovery tool. So I'll put down an SJ set with Scalding FLUDD, Fast Fireball, and Shocking Cape.

HP FLUDD seems like a direct upgrade to FLUDD (if you can't find time to charge it, then why are you not using Scalding FLUDD?), so I'll leave out all FLUDD sets. HP FLUDD definitely goes well with the default up-b, but we should have one of each type of fireball with it. HP FLUDD + Fast Fireball is pretty good against DHD, but HP FLUDD + Fireball is better against Villager I think (goes over tree/sapling).

1312
1332
1212
1213
2312
2332
2322
2212
2213
22

This leaves exactly one set, Fast Fireball + Shocking Cape + two open slots. For this set... one thing that we haven't considered so far much is the customs of other characters. They could opt to take really short-length (but hard to edgeguard, because these are usually strong) recoveries against us to give themselves better offensive up-bs. This has the side effect of making their edgeguarding less strong, so Mario doesn't have to worry about recovering as much against these guys. So what makes sense against this type of unexpected threat? HP FLUDD + Explosive Jump Punch, of course! You can put the fear into those bad recoveries while having TWO strong KO moves (Explosive Jump Punch + Shocking Cape) on the set. That's pretty slick, I think. The final result:

1312
1332
1212
1213
2312
2332
2322
2212
2213
2233

Now, my mathematical approach may have left some sets out that have been discussed, but I think this is a fair spread that covers most of them. What do you guys think?

 

[kesterstudios]

I'm mathematically minded, so here's what I propose. This might be ground that we've covered before, but I wanted to take a bottom-up approach and demonstrate my thought process.

We have 10 sets to work with. Since Fast Fireball and Fireball seem about equally desired by different players (some saying Fast Fireball doesn't have much worth; others saying Fast Fireball is clearly superior), with Fast Fireball slightly edging out Fireball, let's split the sets 6 and 4. 6 with Fast Fireball, and 4 with Fireball.

Shocking Cape and Gust Cape are equally viable, so split both sets in half with the capes:

3 of the Fast Fireball sets have Gust Cape, and 3 have Shocking Cape.
2 of the Fireball sets have Gust Cape, and 2 have Shocking Cape.

At this point we have:

13
13
12
12
23
23
23
22
22
22

Scalding FLUDD + default Super Jump Punch is probably the best thing ever, so make 4 sets with that (one with Fast Fireball + Gust Cape, one with Fast Fireball + Shocking Cape, one with Fireball + Gust Cape, one with Fireball + Shocking Cape):

1312
13
1212
12
2312
23
23
2212
22
22

EJP seems favored by some, so let's give 2 sets that. It seems to go best with Gust Cape, rather than Shocking Cape, for the better recovery, so that works out conveniently. For the set with Fast Fireball, Scalding FLUDD seems like the appropriate choice (since it somewhat replaces default Fireball functionality). For the set without Fast Fireball, I'd still say that Scalding FLUDD is the best choice. It's a nice "get away from me" option offstage even without any charge, and I think if you're going to take EJP you should have plenty of those. So:

1312
1332
1212
12
2312
2332
23
2212
22
22

Now for Super Jump Punch and HP FLUDD.

Super Jump Punch is niche, but some people might want to try it, and we have room for sets with it. I'm going to say that it's niche enough to only merit one set. Super Jump Punch doesn't go well with HP FLUDD, I think, because it reduces your onstage options way too much. Without Scalding FLUDD or your up-b OOS, your offstage game will be significantly worse. Fast Fireball seems better for gimping recoveries than regular Fireball, so the set with SJP should have Fast Fireball. It should also have Shocking Cape because with such a good recovery you don't need another good recovery tool. So I'll put down an SJP set with Scalding FLUDD, Fast Fireball, and Shocking Cape.

HP FLUDD seems like a direct upgrade to FLUDD (if you can't find time to charge it, then why are you not using Scalding FLUDD?), so I'll leave out all FLUDD sets. HP FLUDD definitely goes well with the default up-b, but we should have one of each type of fireball with it. HP FLUDD + Fast Fireball is pretty good against DHD, but HP FLUDD + Fireball is better against Villager I think (goes over tree/sapling).

1312
1332
1212
1213
2312
2332
2322
2212
2213
22

This leaves exactly one set, Fast Fireball + Shocking Cape + two open slots. For this set... one thing that we haven't considered so far much is the customs of other characters. They could opt to take really short-length (but hard to edgeguard, because these are usually strong) recoveries against us to give themselves better offensive up-bs. This has the side effect of making their edgeguarding less strong, so Mario doesn't have to worry about recovering as much against these guys. So what makes sense against this type of unexpected threat? HP FLUDD + Explosive Jump Punch, of course! You can put the fear into those bad recoveries while having TWO strong KO moves (Explosive Jump Punch + Shocking Cape) on the set. That's pretty slick, I think. The final result:

1312
1332
1212
1213
2312
2332
2322
2212
2213
2233

Now, my mathematical approach may have left some sets out that have been discussed, but I think this is a fair spread that covers most of them. What do you guys think?

it looks good but I think there needs to be a set that is 1313.

 

[NairWizard]

Which set do you think should be replaced by 1313?

2233 is the one I'd vote off first (mostly because I hate EJP), which would also give us 5 default and 5 fast fireballs.

 

[kesterstudios]

i think 2322 should be replaced by 1313. this one with the super jump feels unnecessary. I don't think anyone is going to choose super jump over super jump punch

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

@ A2ZOMG - I would like to say that you likely did the best in those games because I had no idea you were running shocking. It was also the first time I had ever seen the move (/johns). I think the situations where Mario needs a forward aerial disjoint is rare, and if the move didn't have so much lag I might actually think otherwise. Everytime I was hit by shocking I shrugged it off as something I simply wasn't used to.

On the other hand, the second I saw you use Scalding Fludd I saw the potential in that move. So I thank you for that. I just think shocking cape is completely unnecessary. It's certainly not useful in neutral and it's usually going to be a suboptimal punish (except in very rare circumstances). I'll admit, being able to reverse your momentum with it is cool, but it's not enough to make me want to use the move... ever.

Perhaps I'm being judgmental towards this move, and by all means I'd like to be proven wrong. Keep in mind these are just my opinions based on my own experiences and I am by no means completely knowledgeable about every facet of Mario's customs.

@ NairWizard - My reasoning for disliking fast fireball is pretty simple, there's no hitstun on the move. I can see how it could be somewhat useful as a disruption tool but eh. I prefer normal fireball over it in every single way, it lets me get in, it covers me as I get back to the stage, it does almost everything I need it to.

I did more experimenting with Scalding Fludd for the last few hours and I think it's incredible. Post 100% it lets you set up into kill moves/combos and before that it sets up into grabs. It's great!

 

[NairWizard]

Fast Fireballs are mostly useful for disruption, yes, but I disagree that Fireballs are very useful except for covering landings/recoveries, which Gust Cape + Scalding FLUDD does just as well anyway. It's kind of a situation where I just think that Fireball is bad/high-commitment, not so much about Fast Fireballs being good on their own. When I use Fireball in neutral I don't get in, I just get powershielded, with Mario in the air. But, I'll concede that Fireballs are better for conditioning.

Agreed on Scalding FLUDD, though. The move makes Mario as a character. Not taking it is like not taking Super Speed with Palutena (less severe, but same principle): why would you?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Scalding FLUDD while relatively safe iirc has at minimum 20ish frames startup, while Shocking Cape is about 14 frames, which is faster than Mario's F-smash and F-air. You can beat things like Marth's F-air head on with Shocking Cape, which is pretty impressive, and while the move isn't safe on block, it does do about the same amount of shield damage as Mario's F-smash, which isn't bad by any means when you have an opportunity to pressure your opponent again.

As someone who plays Ganon, I see Shocking Cape as valuable by having range, disjoint, and damage. That makes it a very unique move in Mario's kit. In a way, Shocking Cape is a great move in similar ways you get a lot of mileage out of Mario's Up-B. Good damage when you connect all the hits, and able to directly beat out a lot of moves in spite of being unsafe. Shocking Cape excels however in spacing situations, where Mario doesn't have a lot of tools normally. While Scalding FLUDD goes a long way, it has different restrictions in how it gets used, and it has lower reward.

Shocking Cape I will say is a matchup dependent custom, but it's by no means bad, and generally speaking more practical than Default Cape, and very much competition for Gust Cape when you factor one of Mario's bigger problems is lacking aerial KO moves.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Gonna compare SolidSense's list of sets to the current one real quick:

1212
1213
1312
1332
2212
2213
2233
2312
2322
2332

1311
1313
1333
2212
2223
2232
2233
2312
2313
2332

Green are new sets, red are lost sets. Here are my thoughts on the new sets:

Most of the new sets are pretty good, as most are brother sets to formerly made sets, and therefore they have similar strengths and weaknesses. 1212 and 2212, 1312 and 2312, 1332 and 2332 are the brother sets. The first two groups are both a part of the well-rounded category. With the 212 sets focusing more on offense while the 312 sets focusing more on defense. While the 332 sets are straight offensive powerhouses, dealing immense damage and setting up for really powerful finishers. So there isn't anything wrong with these six sets.

1213 and 2213 are completely new brother sets. However, both are pretty good. You have your fireball of choice as a poke, Shocking Cape as a KO move, Super Jump Punch as your OoS/recovery/combo package move, and HP FLUDD for stage control and gimping. The good thing about these sets are that, since you are pushing your opponent near a ledge, you are also bringing them to a closer death if you manage to hit them afterwards with Shocking Cape. And because you have HP FLUDD, you still are able to gimp opponents even though these sets lack Gust Cape. The weaknesses of these sets are similar to their brother 1212 and 2212 sets, in that their recoveries aren't as good as the Gust Cape sets. However, they offer a new niche that none of the old sets really covered: The ability to gimp and have a horizontal KO move at the same time. Shocking Cape and HP FLUDD have good synergy together, so I think these are both good sets.


Honestly, I think we should probably scrap the Super Jump sets (which you called Super Jump Punch/his default special on accident lol). They seem to be more of a hassle to make room for than what they are worth. Do they have potential? Sure, but they also have a lot of drawbacks. Specifically, the biggest drawbacks that they have are limiting other sets which are reliable in more matchups, and additionally are more popular anyways.

What I think we should do, instead of trying to find room for these niche sets and debate what should be scrapped/replace for them, we wait until they are needed. In other words, we observe the customs metagame for longer, and see which of Mario's matchups are the hardest to deal with in a customs environment which would call the need for having Super Jump as one of Mario's sets. Until then, I think it is best for us to ignore sets 2322 and 2223.


Now, let's go over the removed sets:

The first thing I noticed were the loss of 1313 and 2313. Both of these are very popular sets, actually. Scoring 4 votes each, both earning "2nd place" in terms of popularity (only losing out to 2332 which had 6 votes). Now that I think about it, despite their popularity, having two gimping moves on the same set seems a bit overkill. Sure, you have two stage control and gimping moves...but isn't that kind of niche in a way? Not to mention, there's not just one, but two of these sets. And while they are great at what they do, ultimately you are losing out on versatility with these sets. Namely actual KO potential, and damage building. So not only do you not have Shocking Cape nor Explosive Jump Punch to help you net KOs, but you don't even have Scalding FLUDD to help you build damage for your normal KO options. Additionally, in a customs environment, recovery moves are going to get better across the board. So while these sets are popular and useful, I think that they are kind of niche. You really only would want to pick these sets against opponents you can easily gimp, which becomes rarer in a customs environment.

So while I think they can still potentially yield some use, it is not necessary to have both of them. So either one of them should be picked over the other, or both could potentially be scrapped for the more versatile sets. SolidSense's list removes both of them. However, if I were to pick one over the other to replace, I would say 1313 > 2313. Because not only does it add another default Fireball set (for equality purposes), but also because it is easier to remove one of your opponent's jumps offstage with Fireballs as opposed to Fast Fireballs, because they are able to cover low recoveries. Additionally, Fireballs have the added benefit of yielding better conditioning, which could lead to a Gust Cape or HP FLUDD blast blowing the opponent offstage.

We also lose 1311, the set that would supposedly be the best to use against Little Mac and Ness. And 1333, the one to use against King DeDeDe and Link. This also aids to my earlier point of picking 1313 over 2313, because set 1313 can at least reliably cover all of these matchups despite the loses of the 1311 and 1333 sets. So while it might be nice to have Explosive Jump Punch for Link or DeDeDe, you could probably use 1332 for those matchups (even though Scalding FLUDD can't stop Gordos). But you can also have 1313 for the Link/King DeDeDe matchup, and for Little Mac and Ness as well. Although default FLUDD would be better for those two matchups, but you could always pick the default set itself if you want to use it against those two characters. So, overall, set 1313 could be a "best of both worlds" set for these matchups. Not the absolute best to use for these matchups, unlike 1311 and 1333, but just enough to cover the most amount of options possible. And to save room for Mario's other sets, when it is finalized.

The only other set I would like to cover is 2232. This is probably Mario's scariest set in terms of raw damage and power, and I kind of like it for those things. It is probably the weakest set in terms of recovery, however. And although it is very scary when Mario is on the stage/is close to you, it actually lacks stage control beyond having Scalding FLUDD. Because it doesn't have HP FLUDD or Gust Cape, you have to suppliment these things with Scalding FLUDD and Shocking Cape. And while Scalding FLUDD is safer on shield than HP FLUDD (since windboxes don't affect shielding opponents), HP FLUDD and Gust Cape essentially have more range in terms of stage control because of these windboxes. So overall, this set might not be as useful as certain other sets when it comes to putting opponents near the ledge. Which is where this set would shine the most, as you could cover a wide array of recovery options via Shocking Cape/Explosive Jump Punch/Scalding FLUDD. Ultimately though, while I like this set, it lacks versatility that some of Mario's best sets possess. And this isn't even factoring the poor recovery combination of Shocking Cape + EJP. These reasons, and because of it's low popularity, make me feel as though it would be best to nix this set in favor of other ones.


Overall, I agree with a lot of the new sets that @ NairWizard provided. But I also agree with what @kesterstudios said as well. 1313 will be much more useful to have over 2322.

Mario

1212
1213
1312
1313
1332
2212
2213
2233
2312
2332


What does everyone think about this? The only set I feel as though I would dislike losing is 1333 personally. *shrugs*

 

[NairWizard]

I agree with that assessment. Super Jump is not something I'll ever use, anyway, but I figured it'd be cool to include it for those of us interested in experimentation. If it costs us 1313, though, then it's probably better to let it go.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Yeah. Ultimately, a niche is a niche. And is only supplementary, instead of being substantial. I would rather take something that can directly contest and would be useful against one of the most threatening characters (Ness) over having something that could be useful against an ambiguous set of characters.

Really the only set I feel as though will truly hurt some of Mario's matchups is the loss of 1333. Mario can still probably manage against Ness and Little Mac even though he won't be running default FLUDD, since the pushing effect HP FLUDD has is really strong and when it is fully charged it has just as much range as the default FLUDD (even though it takes longer to get there). But by losing 1333, I feel as though it can directly hurt Mario's performance against Link and King DeDeDe. King DeDeDe I am not so worried about, since I feel as though Mario can give him enough pressure due to having default Fireballs and even Scalding FLUDD (1332). Which won't reflect Gordos, but it will do a lot to limit D3's approaches against Mario. So Mario can keep D3 out, and still threaten him with EJP once he gets in.

Link, on the other hand, might be a different story. You either lose out on a KO move (EJP) or a stage control move (HP FLUDD). Mario probably wants both against Link in particular. However, not all is lost. Both Super Jump Punch and Scalding FLUDD can halt Link's approaches. Though they won't be able to stop Link's projectile spam and threaten him up close like 1333 could.


Still, having sets to cover multiple opponents should take priority over sets which only covers a single opponent or smaller amount of opponents...in most circumstances. And if having the most optimal sets possible for taking on the game's greatest threats comes with a disadvantageous matchup against Link or a few other characters, I will take it.

 

[HeroMystic]

@ DtJ XeroXen 's assessment on Fast Fireball is ultimately the reason why I stated there needs to be more default fireball sets. I just didn't feel my opinion mattered that greatly since I wasn't well-versed in them. I feel there are some times when Fast Fireball is better, particularly against characters with fast run speeds and can duck under Fireballs. But as someone who values racking up damage quickly and wants to minimize Mario's weaknesses in the negative state, Fast Fireballs are pretty iffy for me.

Beyond that, Explosive Punch has potential but it is a massive punish on whiff despite being a powerful kill move, and it's actually pretty bad as an OOS move because of it's precise hitbox and lack of control. Outside of killing, SJP is superior in every possible way. Far more uses, far more safe, will probably do more damage than Explosive Punch overall throughout a match.

I think it's safe to say everyone agrees that Scalding FLUDD is becoming everyone's favorite. However, I've yet to use this heavily in a match, so I won't give my personal opinion on it.

 

[popsofctown]

Punishes are sometimes "capped" in this game though, a phenomenon unique to Smash 4 that works in EJP's favor. For instance, if you whiff an EJP on Diddy at 0% vs 0%, how is he going to punish you differently from whiffing anything else? He's not, he's going to grab you.
Likewise, several characters don't have a really brutal upsmash or Zelda forward air, so if you EJP and "roost" the landing onto a platform, their possible punish is capped to be their best aerial, which can be a pretty average punish.

Punish plateaus are a really weird shift from Brawl I've noticed lately. You have stuff punishable only by jab at 2-4 frames, stuff punishable only by ftilt at like 5-6 frames and only too far to a grab, then this huge plateau where a lot of characters want to grab you because the game has follow ups and combos, so grab is the territory from 6 frames to 30 frames or something crazy for a lot of characters (in the aforementioned Diddy example it was 6 frames to 300 or something) and that's dependent on them having a smash attack that is pretty impressive or not having one of the more impressive follow up games. And often times the jump from the grab plateau to the smash plateau is the smallest jump in reward for the punisher.

Punish plateaus work in shocking cape's favor too. It's hella laggy, and in Brawl it would be more high risk to get smashed for using it instead of getting grabbed for using it, but in Smash 4 it's still in the grab plateau just like a lot of Mario's other "safe options".

Obviously if I didn't make it clear already there's a big character specific dynamic to this, Bowser for example totally restores a Brawl style smoother gradient of "more frames of lag = more punishment for you" because his grabs followups are poor and his smashes are powerful.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

@ HeroMystic

Your opinion matters. Even if you aren't too versed/experienced with/dislike Fast Fireballs. Still, your opinion matters. And I would much rather have a list of sets that would benefit the most people and matchups as possible as opposed to a small amount in either regard.

Ultimately, I prefer Fast Fireballs not only because they are good for disrupting the opponent, but the main area where they shine to me is as an anti-air attack. With Fast Fireballs, Scalding FLUDD, and Super Jump Punch combined, you can make opponents feel like a worse Little Mac with the amount of aerial options you can snuff out with these moves. And the best thing about these three moves is that their efficiency is mostly just as potent on the ground as they are in the air.

However, Fireballs are equally as potent to me even though I prefer Fast Fireballs. Against slower opponents in particular, I feel as though default Fireballs fair better because of their ability to condition opponents into follow-ups, build damage, cover low recoveries, and being useful as an air-to-ground attack. At first I wrote them off because of how easy they are to shield and their lag makes them pretty useless on the ground, but after seeing the opinions of other people in this topic, I appreciate them more in this game. I might not like them as much as I did in Melee or PM, but they are equally as viable to me as Fast Fireballs are. Much like how Shocking Cape is equally as valuable to me as Gust Cape.

However, I agree with both you and XeroXen, for the most part. Super Jump Punch is easily Mario's best Up B option, as it aids in almost all areas (damage/combo/recovery/safeness/OoS/even KOs sometimes). And Scalding FLUDD is the best thing since sliced bread. That move alone makes me feel as though it changes Mario from being a speedy threat with some key weaknesses (range/damage output) to a true threat at a competitive level. This is also why I like Shocking Cape and the 2212 set that I prefer, as it covers yet another glaring weakness that Mario suffers from in the form of KO potential. So with buffs to range, damage output, and KO potential; it makes me feel really giddy inside when I surprise my opponents with how much potential this Italian plumber's custom moves have.


But yeah, I feel as though @ NairWizard 's list of custom Mario sets is a lot more fair to people over a wide range of preferences. An equal amount of Fireballs and Fast Fireballs, as well as an equal amount of Shocking Capes and Gust Capes. With a preference for Scalding FLUDD and Super Jump Punch (because they are amazing like that), but still with enough Explosive Jump Punch and HP FLUDD sets to make people happy. And the best part? All of these sets are viable.

Mario

1212
1213
1312
1313
1332
2212
2213
2232
2312
2332


So I feel as though, overall, this is the best list of sets we could ask for. We lose out on a little bit (1333), but we still cover a wide array of options not just for Mario, but also for a wide array of people as well. Mario's best trait is usually known as his versatility. And like Mario himself, it looks like we see this being reflected upon in both his custom moves, and the people who play him. So, like Mario and his custom moves, I feel as though we should represent as much versatility as possible in his playerbase as well. Something that would cover a wide amount of preferences, situations, matchups, and people. And I think that SolidSense's list does an excellent job with that.

So unless someone has a really large objection to anything in this list, or a set that we are missing out on, I support everything in this list. And I think we are good to go.