EVO legalized Customs, so lets talk about them.

[Flameleon]

-I miss all the gimmicks that Fludd had in brawl, induced lag, stops momentum, destroys projectiles and many more, damn, surely, you only miss something until u don't have it anymore...

One point in favor for regular Fludd is the fact that you can't get edgeguarded once with a full charge, since you use it to keep the enemy onstage if he tries go to out and then you stil can recover, something than other fludds can't do well...-

 

[BSP]

But I would probably take Scalding Fludd against both. Disjointed aerial attack matters a lot against characters who outrange you.

If you don't take FLUDD or HPFLUDD against DK, he can up B out of your strings and fly away (happens quite a bit) with much more confidence, although your reason for taking scalding is valid.

 

[NairWizard]

If you don't take FLUDD or HPFLUDD against DK, he can up B out of your strings and fly away (happens quite a bit) with much more confidence, although your reason for taking scalding is valid.

I usually don't have this charged when starting a combo on DK. Gust Cape should push him offstage in many cases, but you make a valid point that I hadn't considered.

 

[popsofctown]

DK has that cheese where you can push him off stage right as he uses Giant Punch and he dies, right? Probably hard to pull off though.

 

[Flameleon]

-DK dies if he uses giant punch on the ledge and hits your shield, he goes offstage into freefall animation, you don't even have to fludd him haha, that kinda sucks as a DK user...-

 

[BSP]

I usually don't have this charged when starting a combo on DK. Gust Cape should push him offstage in many cases, but you make a valid point that I hadn't considered.

In most MUs, charging FLUDD is the first thing I'd do because it can land KOs at any %, even if they are gimmicky.

Edit: I just KO'd a Luigi for trying to dthrow -> up B me by pushing him past the ledge when he missed.

 

[HeroMystic]

BSP, Master of FLUDD KOs.

Looking at @ ItsRainingGravy list, I think the list is pretty solid. I can make some other recommendations but it's kind of nitpicky and I don't have that much experience with Mario's customs. If everyone agrees on them I'll let AA know that this is what we decided on as a community.

We'll keep that list until Mario's meta evolves and we want to make some changes.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Yeah, there's probably not much more I would wish to add myself. The lack of a Super Cape set aside, which isn't super necessary because you can just go with the default set for it, I think that we pretty much have almost everything we wanted covered. So I second what @ HeroMystic says.

Mario

1311
1333
2212
2223
2232
2233
2312
2313
2332
2333

Unless someone greatly disagrees with one of the options here and has an explanation as to why/suggestion for something better, this looks to be our final list of custom move sets for our favorite Italian plumber.

 

[Luggy]

Here are my list of my favorite custom moves for Mario. It's a personal list, so don't expect any big thing in it. I'll put a spoiler there, just to not make the post look too big.

Spoiler: Neutral B

1) Fast Fireball : Probably the best option for Mario in my opinion. It's faster than the normal one, puts more pressure and pretty much do what the normal fireball can do. Sure it doesn't bounce and do less damage, but it's not really important I think.
2) Fireball : The basic one is pretty neutral. There's no real downgrade or upgrade here, but the fireballs does help when you want to small characters that could dodge the fast ones, like Kirby for example. It's good, but it's not bad either.
3) Fire Orb : The only awful custom move for Mario for me. It's slow, it's laggy and it does not help Mario in any way. I don't know why this move is like this, but for me, it's a straight no. And I think pretty much everyone saw it right at the beginning.

Spoiler: Side B

1) Shocking Cape : The funniest cape to use in my opinion. It's offensive, and unlike Doc's normal sheet, it actually do damages, even without the little help of recovery behind. Maybe it would have been better if it still reflected projectiles, but you can't have everything.
2) Cape : This cape is good for recovery and gimping. Other than that, it's the basic cape, everyone knows it. I just like it for those two things. But unlike the Gust Cape, it's fast.
3) Gust Cape : Fun fact, I don't like this cape. Why ? It's strangely slower for me. Sure, it helps for gimping, but it's not really the funniest cape to use. It's just the normal cape with wind. Not interresting for me. But most people enjoy it, so I guess it's still a good cape.

Spoiler: Up B

1) Super Jump Punch : I prefer it for two reasons, combos and recovery. I'm more of a combo guy with Mario, so having a fast why to do combos is always good for me. And with the good distance it has, this UpB is my favorite.
2) Explosive Jump Punch : A weird custom that, unlike the Fire Orb, has a lot of possibilities. It's kinda like the UpB of Doc, but stronger and even worse for recovering. But the K.O power on this custom move is amazing. A great way to finally give Mario a solid K.O move. And it's good OoS if I remember correctly.
3) Super Jump : I...hate it. It's fast, it's great for recovering, but it's useless otherwise. I prefer Mario to be offensive, so having an UpB that can do damage is better than a "Swiggity Swooty, I'm coming for the great recovery" move.

Spoiler: DownB

1) Scalding Fludd : Yes, I'm a offensive player. So having the Scalding Fludd is great, it's good to punish stuff. And it's a good move OoS (if I'm not wrong). A great custom move in my opinion.
2) High-Pressure Fludd : It's basically the normal Fludd better. By sacrificing time to charge the Fludd, you gain more distance and gimping power. It's a great custom move to have.
3) Fludd : It's a good move, but compared to the two other, the most boring. It's just the basic Fludd, what else is there to say.

So, in short, my favorite custom set for me is the 2212 (Fast fireballs, Shocking Cape, Normal UpB and Scalding Fludd).

 

[popsofctown]

2232 is one of my favorite sets. It's the set that doesn't try at all to gimp the opponent, which has to be optimal somewhere against some of the really strong recoverers. Can you sacrifice 2212, 2222, or 2223 for it? Especially 2212 or ESPECIALLY 2222.. they seem to lack a gameplan for actually landing a kill since they have no gimp power and no kill power aside from the Shocking Cape. Shocking Cape can help kill, but you can't lean on it totally... If you're going to represent upB2 twice, it seems like both representations should be alongside cold FLUDDS so you can compensate for the lack of kill move and/or OoS damage with some % independent gimps.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Hmmm between all of those, I would say that 2222 could be sacrificed for 2232, despite my earlier impressions of the set. Reason why is that Mario doesn't have too many moves that would require him to go for a deep edgeguard at a second glance.

Dsmash
Bair
Shocking Cape
Bthrow
HP FLUDD/FLUDD

These are the only moves at Mario's disposal which send the opponent out far enough and at a low enough angle at around 100%, and even then Bthrow is kind of dubious since it sends the opponent at a higher angle. And unlike Scalding FLUDD, HP FLUDD can keep the opponent far enough away from the stage where the use of Super Jump would actually matter.

As for 2212, while it does lack a robust gameplan for sealing a kill, it is one of Mario's most versatile sets overall. Fast Fireball for pokes, replacement Fair/Fsmash and KO move in Shocking Cape, OoS and Combos with SJP, and lastly a disjointed hitbox which can be used for defense and building up damage in Scalding FLUDD. While you might have a bit more trouble KOing in comparison to the 2232 set, it trades KOing power for a more reliable OoS and more reliable combos, as well as having a better recovery which gives Mario JUST enough leniency to use Shocking Cape offstage and be able to make it back to the ledge. It is one of my preferred sets, and a set which other people like in this topic, so it can stay.


Changed the list I made above to replace 2222 with 2232 since Scalding FLUDD didn't have much synergy with Super Jump, and because the 2232 set has mostly the same scary functionality that the 2332 set possesses. Even less recovery for an even scarier presence on the stage.

@ popsofctown @ HeroMystic

 

[HeroMystic]

2222 is actually one of the sets that bothered me since Super Jump is fairly niche and Scalding FLUDD just didn't seem correct with it. If you're taking Super Jump it's only functionality is to be more reckless off-stage or suspecting that you'll be edgeguarded to death (which only makes this useful vs Ike, Marth, and Shulk). I just didn't know what to replace it with since Super Cape isn't worth making a custom set when you can just deal with having default for the MUs you'd want it in.

I would keep one Super Jump set just for the sake of niche use. I'm not sure when you'd use it, but having HP FLUDD and Shocking Cape seems to be the only customs that synergize well with it. So I would keep 2223.

2212 I would keep, because sometimes EJP is too risky to take into a match and I would prefer the safety of SJP's recovery.

 

[NairWizard]

you'll be edgeguarded to death (which only makes this useful vs Ike, Marth, and Shulk).

Are you sure? Many characters get a better recovery with customs, so edgeguarding is much easier in a customs meta. I wouldn't write off Super Jump Punch just yet.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ ItsRainingGravy 2333 seems useless to me unless I forgot a matchup or walkoffs are legal. Then again I don't really have any other sets to seriously recommend. We could potentially throw in one Fire Orb set for giggles in teams. In theory I would believe 3331 is the best set for Fire Orb in all teams situations.

On Super Jump, 2223 is really the only one that should exist, but it serves its purpose as intended.

 

[BSP]

BSP, Master of FLUDD KOs.

I try.

Here's the Luigi KO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I6FQeAtSQI

Again, no one sees this stuff coming because only Mario can do it.

Here's a good use for scalding FLUDD: Use it vs sonic. Its stops his spindash, and can just run right through your FLUDD otherwise. Scalding FLUDD is a lot more situational IMHO, but its a goto option in some situations, vs sonic being the most prevalent one to me so far. In fact, characters that are really hard to gimp or affect with the other FLUDDs may warrant a look with scalding FLUDD

I need to try this myself, but do consider that you lose to potential to do silly things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI6RmZ_cWvM#t=244

Sonic's landing options aren't great and I find his players resort to spring -> mixup, and FLUDD/HPFLUDD can KO him for retreating.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

2222 is actually one of the sets that bothered me since Super Jump is fairly niche and Scalding FLUDD just didn't seem correct with it. If you're taking Super Jump it's only functionality is to be more reckless off-stage or suspecting that you'll be edgeguarded to death (which only makes this useful vs Ike, Marth, and Shulk). I just didn't know what to replace it with since Super Cape isn't worth making a custom set when you can just deal with having default for the MUs you'd want it in.

I would keep one Super Jump set just for the sake of niche use. I'm not sure when you'd use it, but having HP FLUDD and Shocking Cape seems to be the only customs that synergize well with it. So I would keep 2223.

2212 I would keep, because sometimes EJP is too risky to take into a match and I would prefer the safety of SJP's recovery.

Agree with all of this. I was overly presumptuous of 2222 in regards to potential utility, until I realized that...it doesn't actually work with his normal moves. On another character, it could've worked. But Mario's normals don't cut it with that set, lol.

2223 is a better set than 2323 at least. Very niche in use still, but you've summed it up pretty nicely. HP FLUDD and Shocking Cape are really the only things it likes, and it pretty much needs both to be anything worthwhile. Without both, Super Jump kind of falls apart on its own.

2212 is definitely solid for sure. Sets 2212, 2312, and 2313 in particular all feel like straight upgrades from his default set in almost every aspect. While they still lack KO potential like the default set, and unlike the EJP sets, you pretty much have at least one tool at your disposal for almost any given situation for these three sets. The later two sets being more true to the default set, only with improved gimping and ranged options. While set 2212 is slightly different in that it trades gimping options (and recovery to a small degree) for a disjointed KO move while still having improved ranged options.

@ ItsRainingGravy 2333 seems useless to me unless I forgot a matchup or walkoffs are legal. Then again I don't really have any other sets to seriously recommend. We could potentially throw in one Fire Orb set for giggles in teams. In theory I would believe 3331 is the best set for Fire Orb in all teams situations.

On Super Jump, 2223 is really the only one that should exist, but it serves its purpose as intended.

2333 I can see having use. Maybe not as much as 2332, but it's there for the people who prefer HP FLUDD over Scalding FLUDD. It won't be able to rack up damage like the Scalding FLUDD set, though it can offer an additional stage control option which can force opponents to the ledge, which can lead to easier EJP setups or possibly even a gimp. Me personally, I would always choose the Scalding FLUDD set since Scalding FLUDD is my favorite of the three (barring matchups that I would highly benefit from having HP FLUDD), but I think that it'll be good to have for the people who prefer HP FLUDD and because most people are probably currently more familiar with HP FLUDD as opposed to Scalding FLUDD.

As for the Fire Orb Set, I would hold off on adding it for now, since these sets are planned to be used for EVO. Once EVO is said and done and we have more knowledge on the usefulness and applications of these sets in tournament matches, a few sets could potentially be replaced for more team-oriented sets.

 

[HeroMystic]

Apparently Xanadu has been hyping Fire Orb for it's setups to F-air spiking.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2x6w8a/completely_automatic_custom_farming_method_found/

This is how I will be unlocking customs.

Also, there is no situation where I wouldn't use EJP because it's way too baller.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Looks like most of the discussion on Mario's customs has died down. Do we have pretty much what we want in terms of sets right now? We have about 10 days before sets are to be finalized on the 17th in preparation for EVO.

To clarify, yes, there is still an ample amount of time. A few boards already have pretty much figured out what they want, and that's great! Many others have not, and that's fine as they still have time. We're doing a status check on all of the boards this weekend and seeing if we can get preliminary thoughts together, but yeah, we're aiming to be done by the 17th with the true deadline of the 27th.

I think that we should discuss Fire Orb in more detail currently. It seems to be the final thing on people's minds right now.

Apparently Xanadu has been hyping Fire Orb for it's setups to F-air spiking.

Interesting. Are there any videos which showcase this application?

Personally, I don't think I'll trade a pivotal tool for Mario's neutral state (Fast Fireball/Fireball) for something that would require either an extensive read or for something with limited use. Fire Orb is limited in both aspects, due to the high startup lag, endlag, and range. Outside of edgeguarding and team battles, it doesn't seem very useful. And even then, you would usually get more mileage out of doing something else for edgeguarding either by using Mario's normal tools, Shocking Cape, HP FLUDD, or Gust Cape in particular. It would still have use in team battles, and I suppose it could have some potential use against opponents Mario can't reliably edgeguard by possibly leading them into a dunk, though I still don't think it is enough to warrant a set of its own. At least currently, anyways.

However, this is also due to my limited knowledge and personal distaste for the move, so I wouldn't mind someone else showing how it can be effective. It has been awhile since I last tested it, so I might do that again soon.

Also, should we mainly focus on making sets for 1v1 battles for tournaments, or should we allocate some room for potential team battle sets? Unlike some of the customs that other characters get, Mario doesn't seem to really get any customs that are 100% geared for team battles (besides maybe Fire Orb), so I am not really sure sets geared toward team battles is necessariy or not. Though I am curious to see what everyone else's opinions are on this.

 

[popsofctown]

I think virtually everyone considers 1v1 battles the premiere event, so you don't want to take any losses in 1v1 for 2v2's sake.

I think it's easier to lose less sleep about skipping a fire orb set by remembering how good fireball and fast fireball are rather than wondering about what virtues fire orb might have. I can't think of a matchup a past or present smash character has encountered where a projectile of such tiny size and high utility was ignored for improving neutral. Mario doesn't have an alternate neutral projectile, unlike Megaman who can happily forfeit crash bomber from neutral and use metal blade or nair for the same situations instead.

 

[popsofctown]

Fire Orb seems to kill a Jigglypuff that rested near the edge at 0 from fair spike->footstool. That's how far I have to reach for an application. You don't want Fire Orb against Jigglypuff though..

 

[HeroMystic]

Fire Orb is only good for edgeguarding since it covers the ledge pretty well and perfectly sets up for F-air spikes. That's a pretty narrow niche in comparison to the other fireballs though.

I don't have videos of Fire Orb in action, but that's what I've been told.

 

[popsofctown]

"covers the ledge pretty well" is generous, the projectile rises above Mario's body level and won't cover foes recovering low, even if they're not recovering all that low. I'm pretty sure it won't intercept Fox Illusioning to sweetspot the ledge.

It costs so much frames and mana points to cast the Fire Orb that you could have moved to the same location the fire hitbox is and put any of the three cape-boxes there instead. The difference is that Fire Orb is very safe and noncommital, you're still on stage, so if they surprise you and recover low that shouldn't be much of a surprise at this point then you are safer on stage than if you went offstage with a cape, especially the capes that carry you further offstage.

 

[kesterstudios]

im gonna go ahead and try out fast fireball since it seems to have a lot of praise in this thread. the set im using right now is 2313.

 

[Xeze]

Currently I am using 2332. I love Gust Cape and Explosive Punch is an amazing kill move. I am still unsure between Scalding FLUDD or High Pressure FLUDD though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Currently I am using 2332. I love Gust Cape and Explosive Punch is an amazing kill move. I am still unsure between Scalding FLUDD or High Pressure FLUDD though.

Scalding FLUDD is way better against good players 95% of the time. Only in very rare situations where you absolutely need to stop zoning or against very specific recoveries is High Pressure FLUDD better. High Pressure FLUDD furthermore is a lot less useful on any set that isn't running Super Jump.

 

[popsofctown]

Can High Pressure FLUDD ohko resting jiggs? I can't believe I haven't thought about that before. Vanilla Fludd would be more prone to ledge snap her i think.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can High Pressure FLUDD ohko resting jiggs? I can't believe I haven't thought about that before. Vanilla Fludd would be more prone to ledge snap her i think.

That's really not a good reason to take HP FLUDD, when a charged Fsmash should kill her at like 40% or something. Scalding FLUDD's disjointed spacing utility is far more useful.

Scalding FLUDD straight up beats a lot of attacks in this game, including many attacks that are really threatening in midrange. One of Mario's biggest weaknesses is his lack of real midrange options, and the range and relative safety of Scalding FLUDD makes it the best Down-B in the vast majority of matchups. Think of Scalding FLUDD as like a short ranged Sheik's Needles that can also anti-air. Your opponent has to respect this when trying to pressure you in midrange.

 

[popsofctown]

That's really not a good reason to take HP FLUDD, when a charged Fsmash should kill her at like 40% or something. Scalding FLUDD's disjointed spacing utility is far more useful.

Scalding FLUDD straight up beats a lot of attacks in this game, including many attacks that are really threatening in midrange. One of Mario's biggest weaknesses is his lack of real midrange options, and the range and relative safety of Scalding FLUDD makes it the best Down-B in the vast majority of matchups. Think of Scalding FLUDD as like a short ranged Sheik's Needles that can also anti-air. Your opponent has to respect this when trying to pressure you in midrange.

If fsmash kills at 40%, Jiggs should attempt rests on hard reads at 39%, if it's a good jiggs. So taking HP fludd would do something.

I haven't tried Scalding Fludd against her yet, but it seems like it wouldn't be as effective as usual.

Does HP Fludd kill on shieldbreaks? Has anyone tested that? Or if you can cape Sleepy Toad, and that somehow amplified the sleepytime?

Is it obvious how badly I want this to be a thing?

So Mewtwo uses Disable, then you Super Cape back, amplifying, then he uses Confusion to reflect it back, amplifying, then you super cape again, then Mewtwo is hit for mega paralysis, then you charge HP FLUDD to full, aerial B reverse it, and OHKO Mewtwo and scream "No OHKO clause, uber" and lift a championship trophy...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yes you can kill people with FLUDD during a shieldbreak. Mario however is the worst character in the game at getting a shield break, so that isn't a reason to use HP/FLUDD.

Scalding FLUDD can wall every attack Jigglypuff can do and cover both her air and grounded options. Messing up Jiggs fundamental spacing game >>> gimmick kills. You have much more command over neutral with Scalding FLUDD and thus will consistently be in a better position to win. The other FLUDDs are only good in situations where a recovery is easily gimped, or when you absolutely need to stop projectile camping by forcing a ledge grab.

 

[popsofctown]

Well if scalding does much of anything against Jiggs than I can't justify the gimmick.

Which FLUDD do you think is the best against Megaman? I've discovered it's not scalding the hard way..

 

[MarioMeteor]

Hello again, Mystic. I think I'll share my set. I rock 2-3-2-3.
2 being the Fast Fireball because it's so fast (obviously), and so disruptive. Because of its incredibly quick animation, you'll more than likely never get punished for it. It induces just enough stun to stop most opponents in their tracks, (except for Super Armored ones like Bowser and Mac) and is all-around a great projectile. It's like Falco's Laser, but good. My favorite thing about it is that if an opponent misses a ukemi, it's almost like a jab in that unless they get up immediately, they could eat two F. Fireballs on the ground. You might even be able to jab reset with them, though I'm too lazy to test it.
3 being Gust Cape because it's straight up Cape Plus. Why wouldn't you use it? It even helps Mario's recovery. Though I could see it replaced with Shocking Cape against fighters with recoveries too good to Caped, like Rosalina or Jigglypuff. Or enemies vulnerable to edgeguarding like Ness.
High-Pressure F.L.U.D.D. for the same reasons as Gust Cape, it's just straight up better. It too can aid Mario's recovery .
Now hear me out here, I know Super Jump Punch is a good combo-breaker and Explosive Jump Punch is a great out of shield option, but Super Jump's recovery buff adds layers to Mario's character in that it buffs his already great offstage game. The only thing holding Mario back from chasing people offstage too deep was his subpar recovery. Now imagine the absolute terror Mario would be now that he can reliably go offstage with no fear. Though I do wish it had a windbox or something, cause the lack of a hitbox does sting sometimes.
I know I've said this already, but I love that Mario is one of the few characters without a bad or extremely situational custom move. Along with maybe Ike and Lucario. Yes, even Fire Orb has its uses.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well if scalding does much of anything against Jiggs than I can't justify the gimmick.

Which FLUDD do you think is the best against Megaman? I've discovered it's not scalding the hard way..

All the FLUDDs are nearly useless against Mega Man. Default or HP can be used to push him to the ledge sometimes. Mega Man is one of few characters where Default Mario is pretty close to being the optimal set against him, given the benefits from other customs are too small, while Default Cape in contrast actually has real uses for reflecting in midrange in this matchup.

 

[Blade Knight]

I'd say vs Mega Man your best bet is probably High Pressure FLUDD. That instantly negates two of Mega Man's recovery options, and I'm sure that good usage of it in combination with Cape does a good job making Beat a worse recovery as well.

 

[CloudxStrife]

Just wondering why fast fireball is the go-to special for Mario? Seems like it's only good for harass as opposed to an approach option which default fireball would give you (approaching fireballs in the air to grab/jabs). With fast fireball, it seems like the neutral game would be to poke with fast fireballs and our only approach is nair->jabs/grab.

Recently hopped on Mario so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

btw, what % does oos exploding punch kill at generally?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Not everyone agrees fast fireball is the go-to special. I think it's actually really bad and I dislike it a lot.

 

[kesterstudios]

i tried fast fireball and its pretty good. Im not sure if its better than the regular fireball though. ill probably keep a custom set with the fast fireball.

now can someone tell me if scalding fludd is useful? I havent used it before, but I feel like trying it out, because as much as I like high pressured fludd, I still have trouble trying to gimp opponents with it, so I feel like I should try something else. I mean I already have the gust cape which is awesome.

 

[popsofctown]

Just wondering why fast fireball is the go-to special for Mario? Seems like it's only good for harass as opposed to an approach option which default fireball would give you (approaching fireballs in the air to grab/jabs). With fast fireball, it seems like the neutral game would be to poke with fast fireballs and our only approach is nair->jabs/grab.

Recently hopped on Mario so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

btw, what % does oos exploding punch kill at generally?

If you're looking for approach options, then I take that to often mean you are up against a character like Diddy, Sheik, or Villager who is going to create issues for you if you don't proactively approach them. In those cases I feel aerial fireball approaches are slower then just approaching with safe aerials, and the character is going to get charge/setup in the time you spent hopping and spacing the fireball. Once you finish setting it all up it's only slightly better than an aerial approach, when they imperfect shield the projectile and let you grab them it's glorious but that's not actually the correct response from them at all so you shouldn't expect a guaranteed outcome, just some strategic edge. It really does give you good strategic edge when you cover an approach, I just don't think it's worth the slow pace.
Against those kinds of characters fast fireball is better because you can use it during your own advantage state for beautiful jab resets, interrupting double jumps offstage, and some other aerial pot shots that will unstale your moves.

Against a character with a weak approach game like maybe Toon Link, Doc, or Falco, Fast Fireball is a better camping projectile if you want to just use it to force the opponent to come to you to make you stop spamming it.

Against characters that can approach you really well, you might want to beat them to the punch and approach yourself using the enhanced slow fireball approaches, like against Captain Falcon or Wario. If they don't have setup behaviors then slow fireball becomes worth the time investment and enhances your approach. I use fast fireball against those characters anyway because I'm out of practice at using slow fireball, but those are the kinds of matchups where I would be most interested in switching back.

IMDHO

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not everyone agrees fast fireball is the go-to special. I think it's actually really bad and I dislike it a lot.

They're far superior in the negative state due to less ending lag when doing B reverses, and generally speaking have better applications on all the neutral stages except Smashville. Fast Fireballs if you ask me are pretty darn good. Yes there's some matchups I will use regular fireballs, but Fast Fireballs are less dependent on matchup inexperience most of the time.

i tried fast fireball and its pretty good. Im not sure if its better than the regular fireball though. ill probably keep a custom set with the fast fireball.

now can someone tell me if scalding fludd is useful? I havent used it before, but I feel like trying it out, because as much as I like high pressured fludd, I still have trouble trying to gimp opponents with it, so I feel like I should try something else. I mean I already have the gust cape which is awesome.

Scalding FLUDD is way better than the other FLUDDs except in specific matchups. It really isn't a debate at this point. Most good players will not get edgeguarded by FLUDD except in something like the Mac and Ness matchup, which leaves FLUDD as mostly only really useful for pushing people off the ledge to force resets in neutral against camping. But Scalding FLUDD in contrast actually is a great move in neutral due to its utility as a disjointed midrange tool that does damage. Think of Scalding FLUDD as Sheik's Needles in a sense.

 

[kesterstudios]

They're far superior in the negative state due to less ending lag when doing B reverses, and generally speaking have better applications on all the neutral stages except Smashville. Fast Fireballs if you ask me are pretty darn good. Yes there's some matchups I will use regular fireballs, but Fast Fireballs are less dependent on matchup inexperience most of the time.

Scalding FLUDD is way better than the other FLUDDs except in specific matchups. It really isn't a debate at this point. Most good players will not get edgeguarded by FLUDD except in something like the Mac and Ness matchup, which leaves FLUDD as mostly only really useful for pushing people off the ledge to force resets in neutral against camping. But Scalding FLUDD in contrast actually is a great move in neutral due to its utility as a disjointed midrange tool that does damage. Think of Scalding FLUDD as Sheik's Needles in a sense.

ok well ill give scalding fludd a try