Escape from chain grabs.

[Big-Cat]

But that's almost completely different from what he said. He was saying that you deserve to get punished hard if you ever got hit, and the solution is don't get hit ever and you'll be fine.

You're oversimplifying what I said. Yes, don't get hit, that's the number one thing you learn with any videogame. I'm not saying that every attack needs to lead into a touch of death combo. I even said that jabs and pokes are still important for getting those bits and pieces of damage whenever. You need to play smart against your opponent. Know their options and your options. What are their OOS options/reversals, what things are unsafe for either of you, what can you do for whiff punishing, etc.

 

[Biz_R_0]

You still have to do all of this with DIable combos. The only difference is you can get out if you're skilled enough and don't have to sit there and wait until the other guy finishes or drops.

 

[Big-Cat]

Of course you do, but I'd rather not have it where every combo is a freaking mixup, and this is coming from a guy that LOVES mixups.

 

[Biz_R_0]

There are quite a few combos that aren't like that.

 

[Big-Cat]

It appears neither of us are going to agree, does it? I love mixups and find them to be an important part of a player's skills, but I would not go as far as to allow reading to play a role into which attack will be next in a combo unless the move is specifically designed that way. You get caught in a combo, you just suck it up and take it until an escape window is available.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I'm saying true combos and DI combos can coexist because they already do, you insist to the contrary.

 

[Sleek Media]

Get a room, ladies.

 

[Yodery]

Get a room, ladies.

Co-sign, tbh.

SMASH IS SRS FKN BSNS DOE

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

Falco can only chaingrab you at lower %. You know, like he can't kill you off of it or anything. The first 60% are also the least meaningful in the game as it's not hard to reach for like any character so it's fine. If he could do it from 60%-120% it would change everything.
And if you die to Falco's chaingrab you are seriously horrible at this game.

Or maybe I'm not using a btich-arse character.

And I guess your argument against PS2 is "but, but, but I don't want to adapt". The best argument I've heard against PS2 is that it's dumb. I don't expect you to do any better.

Oh, just like "I don't want to adapt to Hyrule Temple" argument? Or maybe the "I don't want to adapt to items." Everybody look at the genius here. He's so smart.

What the hell? SDI doesn't do **** to chaingrabs because the only throw I know of that can be SDI'd is Puffs Fthrow in Melee. You SDI the dair so you know, you don't die. And even if you don't, only like 5 characters die to it anyways.
And what the hell does SDI have to do with Puffs Uthrow rest? You DI it left or right to make it much harder, but I am pretty sure you can still rest, don't make my word on it though.

Oh man. Did the sarcasm really go over your head? That's my point.

Actually you can SDI into the stage or a tech in every single situation on I can think of in a legal stage. I guess a Dedede comparison would be Dthrow -> Dash attack.

For Falco chaingrab into spike, you can always SDI into the stage AND tech?

Execution is not what defines a better player. Is just your ability to do certain stuff and it's not correlated to your skill in the actual game. Though it will be a must to have in higher levels of play obviously. Still doesn't make you a higher level player.

Nobody asked for the shortbus kid's definition of a "better player".

It's not horrible advice. You just have to realize what he means with it. As long as you don't get hit, your opponent can't combo, chaingrab, kill whatever you. The point is to play safe, don't take risks too much and punish when your opponent is vulnerable. Like you know, don't just run at Snake or you get tilted, bait the tilt, punish when the opponent is doing the move and stuck in lag. That way you won't get hit. Obviously it doesn't help you become a good player, but it's pretty much the simplest piece of advice that makes sense, ever.

That's entirely missing the point anyway.

Sorry about the huge messed up wall of text

I can never forgive.

 

[-LzR-]

Or maybe I'm not using a btich-arse character.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

Oh, just like "I don't want to adapt to Hyrule Temple" argument? Or maybe the "I don't want to adapt to items." Everybody look at the genius here. He's so smart.

There is a big difference between these 2 stages. Temple suffers from degenerate tactics aka circle camping which is almost unbeatable. I guess you could make a dumb surgical rule like the scrooging rule for SV to make it fair. PS2 though, just makes some changes to the stage sometimes. Or are you saying less traction for 1/8 of the match is dumb and broken? Or are you saying you really really have to jump around the air transformation?
I understand why many people consider the stage dumb, but there is nothing bannable about it. If you can ban a stage just because people dislike it and it's dumb, why the hell is MK still legal?

Oh man. Did the sarcasm really go over your head? That's my point.

It's not easy to notice sarcasm in the internet. Especially when you seem to be so serious all the time.

For Falco chaingrab into spike, you can always SDI into the stage AND tech?

Pretty much. Not literally always, like for example, when you are spiked at the edge of the SV platform when it's on the sides, but at that point, all characters can safely make it back to the ledge anyways so it makes no difference. And yes, the SDI isn't that hard. Most of the time I just overshoot so I actually land onstage behind Falco and tech away. Most of the time he gets a dash attack or usmash, but I'll live.

Nobody asked for the shortbus kid's definition of a "better player".

Then why are you mentioning execution if it doesn't matter?

 

[Biz_R_0]

Co-sign, tbh.

SMASH IS SRS FKN BSNS DOE

Clearly the importance of arguing about features that aren't going to be added to a game that doesn't exist yet is lost on you.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I use low tiers that don't have ridiculous Brawl recovery, and they just can't make it back.

There is a big difference between these 2 stages. Temple suffers from degenerate tactics aka circle camping which is almost unbeatable. I guess you could make a dumb surgical rule like the scrooging rule for SV to make it fair. PS2 though, just makes some changes to the stage sometimes. Or are you saying less traction for 1/8 of the match is dumb and broken? Or are you saying you really really have to jump around the air transformation?
I understand why many people consider the stage dumb, but there is nothing bannable about it. If you can ban a stage just because people dislike it and it's dumb, why the hell is MK still legal?

I never said anything about banning; obviously the offense of the conditions I mentioned wins by degrees. I just said that most sensible people consider it dumb.

Playing on that stage is like cutting the gameplay by 3/4s. Yes, less traction for 1/8 is pretty significant. 1/8 in fighting games tends to be extremely significant. It's just astounding how bland and stale brawl turned out to be to have Brawl players think that game-impairing conditions for 1/8 of the match isn't a significant change.

It's not easy to notice sarcasm in the internet. Especially when you seem to be so serious all the time.

I know it's harder to notice sarcasm, but I just make it extremely obvious.

Pretty much. Not literally always, like for example, when you are spiked at the edge of the SV platform when it's on the sides, but at that point, all characters can safely make it back to the ledge anyways so it makes no difference. And yes, the SDI isn't that hard. Most of the time I just overshoot so I actually land onstage behind Falco and tech away. Most of the time he gets a dash attack or usmash, but I'll live.

Oh **** me then. I guess I just need to improve my timing.

Then why are you mentioning execution if it doesn't matter?

It does matter, and your shortbus kid definition doesn't affect that. As it was elaborated on by people in the l-canceling thread that don't think in black and white, execution requirement is an important balance factor.

 

[-LzR-]

I use low tiers that don't have ridiculous Brawl recovery, and they just can't make it back.

Tiers are kinda irrelevant when it comes to recovery. Just look at Puff. And of course there's Olimar and Marth who are good but are bad at recovering.
If you are talking about Melee though, I understand, Brawl recoveries should be toned down a bit. Then again I main Puff in Melee so I am not aware of all the difficulties when it comes to recovery as I can kinda skip that part.

I never said anything about banning; obviously the offense of the conditions I mentioned wins by degrees. I just said that most sensible people consider it dumb.

Playing on that stage is like cutting the gameplay by 3/4s. Yes, less traction for 1/8 is pretty significant. 1/8 in fighting games tends to be extremely significant. It's just astounding how bland and stale brawl turned out to be to have Brawl players think that game-impairing conditions for 1/8 of the match isn't a significant change.

Just because gameplay is changed slightly doesn't ruin gameplay. It actually adds to it. I do not agree with conservative stagelists and it is a big factor in why I don't care about Brawl much anymore.

I know it's harder to notice sarcasm, but I just make it extremely obvious.

I am not good at reading between the lines or something like that. When I read stuff I usually assume they mean it. I guess I need to get better...

Oh **** me then. I guess I just need to improve my timing.

I think there was a video that showed the inputs to make it quite easy. I myself can't do it consistently because my characters don't care about the spike.

It does matter, and your shortbus kid definition doesn't affect that. As it was elaborated on by people in the l-canceling thread that don't think in black and white, execution requirement is an important balance factor.

It's only a balance factor at lower levels of play, but I think we have to consider them as well, so I kinda have to agree with you on this. I just don't want it to have too much impact you know? Brawl has done this execution thing quite badly. 90% of the relevant things are easy and barely require good execution. Then again, there are a lot of incredible techniques that require way too much execution for anyone to even bother with them.

 

[Arcansi]

It's only a balance factor at lower levels of play, but I think we have to consider them as well, so I kinda have to agree with you on this.

This is more of an opinion point than a fact one.

Execution skill can be viewed as something more desirable than 'mental' skill, or it can be viewed as less.

It can also be viewed as equal. It's based on what you think the game is built to test(or what you think it should be built to test), which isn't something we can really know or plan to know.

 

[knuckles213]

I'm a bit late in this thread, but I'm going to throw my two cents anyway and say
get rid of 0 to death CG (or give everyone a GC of some sort), keep everything else, and were good.

oh and add better "get out grab option or button".

 

[Biz_R_0]

That's pretty much the general consensus, now we're trying to figure out how to do it.

Also, I notice that you main Fox in 64 and Brawl but not Melee where he's the best. Why is that?

 

[Arcansi]

That's pretty much the general consensus, now we're trying to figure out how to do it.

Wouldn't a grab-break button or command be the best option?

From what I remember, some other games use the grab button as the grab-break button. This would be a solid option, as you don't freely avoid tech chases, because if the opponent fakes you out they can hit you with a move.

It should be noted this will probably prevent IC's from being top-tier, disregarding giant changes to how they work.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I'm confused, how would a button that instantly nullifies a grab be good?

 

[Arcansi]

I'm confused, how would a button that instantly nullifies a grab be good?

The button causes you to do something you don't want to do if it doesn't block a grab.

 

[Biz_R_0]

But it would still make grabs useless.

 

[Big-Cat]

But it would still make grabs useless.

You really have no idea do you?

Grab teching is important for both defensive and balancing reasons. In Smash right now, there's not a whole lot besides an insane amount of mashing that lets you defend against a grab when you know it's coming. This is where grab breaks come in. I'm certain you're going to grab so I will grab at the same time so I can escape it. Or, you'll mess with my head and attack me instead, leaving me with a whiffed grab. This also gives command grabs a big advantage and why they're so feared, you can't block them nor can you escape the grab once caught.

I've asked others on this forum countless times this: Do you have extensive experience (familiar or even competitive play) in other fighting games?

 

[Baskerville]

Then just add a frame window for teching grabs.
Basically what Kuma said.

 

[Arcansi]

Grab teching is important for both defensive and balancing reasons. In Smash right now, there's not a whole lot besides an insane amount of mashing that lets you defend against a grab when you know it's coming.

I think you overrate grab teching in Smash.

It's definitely required in less mobile games, but it should be noted that at a certain point, when characters are mobile enough, grab-teching is almost not needed.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't see the connection between mobility and grab teching.

 

[Biz_R_0]

You really have no idea do you?

Grab teching is important for both defensive and balancing reasons. In Smash right now, there's not a whole lot besides an insane amount of mashing that lets you defend against a grab when you know it's coming. This is where grab breaks come in. I'm certain you're going to grab so I will grab at the same time so I can escape it. Or, you'll mess with my head and attack me instead, leaving me with a whiffed grab. This also gives command grabs a big advantage and why they're so feared, you can't block them nor can you escape the grab once caught.

In neither of those situations does anyone get grabbed or thrown. Why even have grabs at that point? Like I said, this makes grabs useless, or at the very least it severely nerfs them.

I've asked others on this forum countless times this: Do you have extensive experience (familiar or even competitive play) in other fighting games?

I used to play SF4 casually. And, either way, Smash is not a traditional fighter, nor should it be treated like one. Leave your "Street Fighter does it therefore it's good" logic back with Capcom and SNK.

 

[Arcansi]

I don't see the connection between mobility and grab teching.

Grabs are inherently not very mobile mechanics. They can't be preformed in the air, and only very rarely can be preformed on someone in the air at all or on anyone at any range from you.

Because of this, the more mobile you are the harder you are to grab. If everyone is sufficiently mobile at all times, there would be no need for a grab release, as you would be able to counter getting grabbed by moving better.

Doesn't deal with chain grabs (just don't code grabs that can be chained.). But is something to remember.

In neither of those situations does anyone get grabbed or thrown. Why even have grabs at that point? Like I said, this makes grabs useless, or at the very least it severely nerfs them.

It nerfs them somewhat, but does not severly nerf them.

It is not like you can go 'oh I got grabbed, ima hit z and get out.' You have to hit z before/as you get grabbed in order to escape.

I used to play SF4 casually. And, either way, Smash is not a traditional fighter, nor should it be treated like one. Leave your "Street Fighter does it therefore it's good" logic back with Capcom and SNK.

It has roots in traditional fighter games.

While something coming from a traditional fighter does not mean it is good inherently, (that would be genetic fallacy.) they do give us good things to go off of, and should be treated as such.

 

[Big-Cat]

In neither of those situations does anyone get grabbed or thrown. Why even have grabs at that point? Like I said, this makes grabs useless, or at the very least it severely nerfs them.

Let me explain something to you. When you add tech grabs, you're introducing another defensive option and thus the game acquires more depth. Grabs do not become useless as you can be unpredictable with your offense. You can bait them into grab breaking, make them whiff where they're completely defenseless. Likewise, they may opt to block as a result, but you grab them instead.

And simply put, the vast majority of options need to have something it can beat and something that it can be beaten with, in other words, there needs to be a rock-paper-scissors balance and grab breaking completes it.

I used to play SF4 casually. And, either way, Smash is not a traditional fighter, nor should it be treated like one. Leave your "Street Fighter does it therefore it's good" logic back with Capcom and SNK.

More like Namco at this point. Still, this does not explain the logic as to why grab breaks should be avoided for Smash. Saying it's a different kind of game does not explain why it's inappropriate in a constructive manner.

 

[Biz_R_0]

It nerfs them somewhat, but does not severly nerf them.

It is not like you can go 'oh I got grabbed, ima hit z and get out.' You have to hit z before/as you get grabbed in order to escape.

It's still completely based on reflexes because the window large enough for people to realize what's happening and react in time. People who are good at pressing the z button really fast get nothing but reward, and at higher levels of play where most people would be, no one would get grabbed. Gee, that sounds like another mechanic that most of us dislike...

It has roots in traditional fighter games.

While something coming from a traditional fighter does not mean it is good inherently, (that would be genetic fallacy.) they do give us good things to go off of, and should be treated as such.

You just said "It's not good just because it's from a traditional fighter, but everything from a traditional fighter is good".

 

[Arcansi]

It's still completely based on reflexes because the window is large enough for people to realize what's happening and react in time. People who are good at pressing the z button really fast get nothing but reward, and at higher levels of play where most people would be, no one would get grabbed. Gee, that sounds like another mechanic that most of us dislike...

You're making an assumption here (bolded). And that just isn't true.

You just said "It's not good just because it's from a traditional fighter, but everything from a traditional fighter is good".

The first half is correct, the second half should be 'but it's not bad just because it comes from a traditional fighter either.'

 

[Big-Cat]

It's still completely based on reflexes because the window large enough for people to realize what's happening and react in time. People who are good at pressing the z button really fast get nothing but reward, and at higher levels of play where most people would be, no one would get grabbed. Gee, that sounds like another mechanic that most of us dislike...

Except tech grabs are designed to where the tech window is incredibly small or are in some cases very precise to the point you're better of predicting it. Even high level players can't predict consistently.

You just said "It's not good just because it's from a traditional fighter, but everything from a traditional fighter is good".

No, he said that it's worth thinking about.

Grabs are inherently not very mobile mechanics. They can't be preformed in the air, and only very rarely can be preformed on someone in the air at all or on anyone at any range from you.

Because of this, the more mobile you are the harder you are to grab. If everyone is sufficiently mobile at all times, there would be no need for a grab release, as you would be able to counter getting grabbed by moving better.

Doesn't deal with chain grabs (just don't code grabs that can be chained.). But is something to remember.

To take this logic one step further, if we have all this mobility, should we get rid of shielding? I mean, we're so mobile all the time that it's incredibly hard to get a single hit in.

The problem with this logic is that it overrates evasive tactics and not enough on basic defensive tactics like blocking.

 

[Biz_R_0]

You're making an assumption here (bolded). And that just isn't true.

You don't grab the instant you press z near an opponent in range, there are very visible start-up frames to a grab and very visible frames while the grab connects. At any time during this you could press z and get off Scot free, according to your description.

 

[Big-Cat]

You don't grab the instant you press z near an opponent in range, there are very visible start-up frames to a grab and very visible frames while the grab connects. At any time during this you could press z and get off Scot free, according to your description.

Throws have very minimal startup time. No human has the reactions to respond that quickly in a 2D game. And even if your opponent is in range to do a grab, that doesn't mean they will try to grab and may be baiting you.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Except tech grabs are designed to where the tech window is incredibly small or are in some cases very precise to the point you're better of predicting it. Even high level players can't predict consistently.

You can't just say "oh it'll work", you have how it will work. At what point would the grab tech work?

Also, this isn't accessible. This isn't a thing that new people are going to know how to do while first learning the basics, since the window is so small and it's easy to mistime even if you predict.

Throws have very minimal startup time. No human has the reactions to respond that quickly in a 2D game. And even if your opponent is in range to do a grab, that doesn't mean they will try to grab and may be baiting you.

Okay. This is still severely nerfing the grab, making a large part of the game much less useful to solve a problem that isn't big enough to require this. There are much better infinite prevention systems, even just not having fixed knockback and being able to DI throws would be a simpler and more effective fix than this.

And what happened to you liking non-infinite chain grabs and true combos, which this would remove (not all true combos, but the ones with grabs)?

 

[Big-Cat]

You can't just say "oh it'll work", you have how it will work. At what point would the grab tech work?

Also, this isn't accessible. This isn't a thing that new people are going to know how to do while first learning the basics, since the window is so small and it's easy to mistime even if you predict.

This could so easily go into an execution argument it's not even funny. Any new player to ANY game is going to stumble for a bit before they get the hang of things. Just like short hops, people will figure out how to time their tech grabs while they play the game.

Okay. This is still severely nerfing the grab, making a large part of the game much less useful to solve a problem that isn't big enough to require this. There are much better infinite prevention systems, even just not having fixed knockback and being able to DI throws would be a simpler and more effective fix than this.

Have you thought that perhaps grabs need to be nerfed?

And what happened to you liking non-infinite chain grabs and true combos, which this would remove (not all true combos, but the ones with grabs)?

There's no inconsistency. A balanced chain grab would have branches so you aren't guaranteed an escape each time as you could do followup 2 instead of following up 1, except that'd be difficult to implement in Smash due to the 4 player aspect of the game and it'd also depend on how throw breaks would work.

 

[Arcansi]

To take this logic one step further, if we have all this mobility, should we get rid of shielding? I mean, we're so mobile all the time that it's incredibly hard to get a single hit in.

The problem with this logic is that it overrates evasive tactics and not enough on basic defensive tactics like blocking.

You're ignoring the conditions of my argument.

That being that grabs are incredibly short range AND ground-only.

Okay. This is still severely nerfing the grab, making a large part of the game much less useful to solve a problem that isn't big enough to require this. There are much better infinite prevention systems, even just not having fixed knockback and being able to DI throws would be a simpler and more effective fix than this.

Assuming grabs don't need to be nerfed, this is still a good thing.

You are acting like this would make grabbing a horrid choice, which just isn't true.

For proof, go look at any competitive game that has this mechanic, and see that grabbing is used often.

 

[Arcansi]

delete option 2013

:fluttershy:

 

[Biz_R_0]

This could so easily go into an execution argument it's not even funny. Any new player to ANY game is going to stumble for a bit before they get the hang of things. Just like short hops, people will figure out how to time their tech grabs while they play the game.

See, that's why I specified that beginners should be the ones learning the basics, not intermediate players. Smash is all about accessibility, there's no place for this kind of thing here.

Have you thought that perhaps grabs need to be nerfed?

I did think about it, and I disagree. Grabs are fine the way they are and IMO the best in any fighter. Other grabs are just "oh he's blocking better do something about it", in Smash they actually function as real viable moves. Although I'm getting the feeling that you want it that way, because pretty much every opinion of yours in this thread goes back to traditional fighters.

There's no inconsistency. A balanced chain grab would have branches so you aren't guaranteed an escape each time as you could do followup 2 instead of following up 1, except that'd be difficult to implement in Smash due to the 4 player aspect of the game and it'd also depend on how throw breaks would work.

But with your solution you could escape at any time, no true chain grabs.

You are acting like this would make grabbing a horrid choice, which just isn't true.

For proof, go look at any competitive game that has this mechanic, and see that grabbing is used often.

Not as often as it's used here, not even close. Even if grabs wouldn't be horrid, they'd still be a worse option overall because of this. Like I said, this is too big of a nerf to a mechanic when there are equally effective ways that don't do this.

 

[Arcansi]

Not as often as it's used here, not even close. Even if grabs wouldn't be horrid, they'd still be a worse option overall because of this. Like I said, this is too big of a nerf to a mechanic when there are equally effective ways that don't do this.

1. That's not inherently a bad thing. Mechanics go up and down in use in every game. Worse as a mechanic != worse for game health.

2. Like what? No Fixed Knockback + DI on throws? Even in brawl, that would mean falco still chaingrabs heavy characters for a good while, and probably fastfallers.

So, it wouldn't even remove all chaingrabs.

 

[Biz_R_0]

1. That's not inherently a bad thing. Mechanics go up and down in use in every game. Worse as a mechanic != worse for game health.

Why make something worse when you don't need to?

2. Like what? No Fixed Knockback + DI on throws? Even in brawl, that would mean falco still chaingrabs heavy characters for a good while, and probably fastfallers.

So, it wouldn't even remove all chaingrabs.

It would remove infinite chain grabs. And if you want a solution to remove all chain grabs; after you grab once, all other grab attempts will automatically whiff until the hitstun completely wears off. Simple and accessible fix that changes nothing else.

 

[Big-Cat]

See, that's why I specified that beginners should be the ones learning the basics, not intermediate players. Smash is all about accessibility, there's no place for this kind of thing here.

And I suppose there is for recovering off stage which is something I know a lot of beginning players from my experience, for whatever reason, can't do.

I did think about it, and I disagree. Grabs are fine the way they are and IMO the best in any fighter. Other grabs are just "oh he's blocking better do something about it", in Smash they actually function as real viable moves. Although I'm getting the feeling that you want it that way, because pretty much every opinion of yours in this thread goes back to traditional fighters.

Yeah, about that. Throws are still highly valuable. Typically, they put the opponent in a knocked down state which leads to oodles of okizeme which means more damage if you read right.

Part of the thing with Smash throws is that they behave like launchers in comparison to the normal throws in most other games (command throws are another story). If I recall correctly, the ones that let you combo off of throws in other games actually scale the following attacks in the combos down to prevent the game from becoming overly defensive.

But with your solution you could escape at any time, no true chain grabs.

Except true chain grabs are escable. You aren't stuck in them if you read right. Ask the Kings, Nina, etc.

Not as often as it's used here, not even close. Even if grabs wouldn't be horrid, they'd still be a worse option overall because of this. Like I said, this is too big of a nerf to a mechanic when there are equally effective ways that don't do this.

Like what?