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Escape from chain grabs.

Wobbly Headed Bob

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In that case, people would just throw Jab -> Grab into the mix and bypass the counter.

Pit has a lot of F-Throw x2/3 stuff. Pikachu has the F-Throw -> D-Throw stuff on, like, Dedede. Where do you draw the line?
Yes, there would have to be resets in order for chaingrabbing to work, that way chaingrabbing game isn't dead either since it does have its good points but relies more on mindgames and setups. The hitstun cancel would occur as long as the combo counter is not reset.

I don't particularly have an issue with chaincomboing into different throws. I think that each individual throw should have its own counter so it does not interfere with other throws.

The only issue with this I can think of is that it wouldn't quite fix tech-chase based chain throws. In which case, I think either the individual throw should be nerfed depending on the character chain-throw viability. For example, Melee Sheik's dthrow should be nerfed or changed, but Mewtwo dthrow shouldn't be.
 

Biz_R_0

Smash Ace
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Easy solution that completely and definitely solves the problem; add a mechanic that makes all grabs whiff on opponents in hitstun if they've already been grabbed. That way, it would be literally impossible to chain grab. And I meant "grab" as in the actual grab that all characters get, not specials like Flying Bowser Slam and Flame Choke.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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Easy solution that completely and definitely solves the problem; add a mechanic that makes all grabs whiff on opponents in hitstun if they've already been grabbed. That way, it would be literally impossible to chain grab. And I meant "grab" as in the actual grab that all characters get, not specials like Flying Bowser Slam and Flame Choke.
No one wants that I'm pretty sure.
 

grizby2

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they could just change how some throws ..are?

who is to say dedede or falco will get the same down throw?
that or they can change the set-knockback on some of the throws.

just trying to use Occam's razor here. thoughts?
 

Biz_R_0

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they could just change how some throws ..are?

who is to say dedede or falco will get the same down throw?
that or they can change the set-knockback on some of the throws.

just trying to use Occam's razor here. thoughts?
Occam's Razor would probably favor mine because just adding a mechanic that makes grabs whiff after you throw them once would be simpler than individually adjusting all of the throws in the game.
 

-LzR-

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Just allow teching throws with an added 25% when doing so. No need for any bull**** mechanics that make grabs whiff because that just doesn't work with smash.
 

Biz_R_0

Smash Ace
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I don't think an extra 25% would deter people from teching the grand majority of throws.
 

grizby2

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Occam's Razor would probably favor mine because just adding a mechanic that makes grabs whiff after you throw them once would be simpler than individually adjusting all of the throws in the game.
it doesn't have to be ALL the throws in the game.
also, sorry for my lack of termonology know-how, but what do you mean by "whiff"? i'll hear you out.
 

Robert of Normandy

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it doesn't have to be ALL the throws in the game.
also, sorry for my lack of termonology know-how, but what do you mean by "whiff"? i'll hear you out.
In fighting game, a "whiff" is a move that doesn't connect with(i.e. misses) the opponent.
 

Biz_R_0

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also, sorry for my lack of termonology know-how, but what do you mean by "whiff"? i'll hear you out.
A whiff is when you do a move and it completely misses the opponent. When you attemt to grab an opponent in hitstun when you've already grabbed the opponent during the combo, it wouldn't register as you making contact with the opponent and the grab wouldn't connect. This way, it literally only affects chain grabs and grab release shenanigans.
 

grizby2

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ok, i see.

but smash's "combos" arent true combos though, they're more like strings of certain attacks that work well together due to hit stun. this is easier to see in melee than in brawl, but is still present nonetheless.

IIRC, in training mode, a "combo" is registered as how many hits a characters takes before falling to the ground. throws that initiate chain grabbing are usually ones that throw you on the ground. :urg:
so if a whiff is implemented in the way you stated, we might need a different "combo" system.
(thats only if im right about the way the game registers a combo)
 

Biz_R_0

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No, the combo counter in Brawl, at least, counts hits by how many times they're hit in hitstun.
 

Big-Cat

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but smash's "combos" arent true combos though, they're more like strings of certain attacks that work well together due to hit stun. this is easier to see in melee than in brawl, but is still present nonetheless.
That's what a combo is, when you're connecting hits based off of hitstun. The thing with Smash "combos" is they're really all mixups because every attack can be DI'd, making every combo a guessing game.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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they could just change how some throws ..are?

who is to say dedede or falco will get the same down throw?
that or they can change the set-knockback on some of the throws.

just trying to use Occam's razor here. thoughts?
Occam's Razor would probably favor mine because just adding a mechanic that makes grabs whiff after you throw them once would be simpler than individually adjusting all of the throws in the game.
Occam's Razor doesn't favor either of you BECAUSE IT DOES NOT APPLY. Don't use terms you don't understand.

Occam's razor is a principle in rational thinking that says that a person should not add superfluous agents in attempt to explain something when it can be perfectly explained without it. Occam's Razor, for example, works against the case of spirit-body dualism, God, etc.
 

grizby2

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what about grabbing someone right after they bounce off a wall ("wall" combos i guess you'd call'em)? would that still count as "chain" grabbing?

would doing a wall tech end the combo? if so, couldn't you be grabbed again right after if theres only one whiff per combo? (kinda situational, i know)
 

Biz_R_0

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If they just bounce off the wall, then it would still be part of the combo until the hitstun ends. If they tech, they could be grabbed again. Actually, that's a good point, my way would also give you another reason not to tech (avoiding wall infinites).
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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ok, i see.

but smash's "combos" arent true combos though, they're more like strings of certain attacks that work well together due to hit stun. this is easier to see in melee than in brawl, but is still present nonetheless.

IIRC, in training mode, a "combo" is registered as how many hits a characters takes before falling to the ground. throws that initiate chain grabbing are usually ones that throw you on the ground. :urg:
so if a whiff is implemented in the way you stated, we might need a different "combo" system.
(thats only if im right about the way the game registers a combo)
That doesn't mean that Smash doesn't have combos. A combo by definition is a succession of hits in between hitstun, which there are a lot in Melee.

Generally combo ceases to be a combo when the opponent hits the floor unless the next hit is inescapable. Not all chain grabs are based upon tech-chasing (which is following the opponent as tries to stand up into a grab).

what about grabbing someone right after they bounce off a wall ("wall" combos i guess you'd call'em)? would that still count as "chain" grabbing?

would doing a wall tech end the combo? if so, couldn't you be grabbed again right after if theres only one whiff per combo? (kinda situational, i know)
Yeah, it'd still be a chain grab, although not a standard chain grab. A wall-tech would probably end the chain grab. Chain grabs exactly inescapable (at least in melee).
 

Pyra

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At the risk of repeating what someone else has said because I haven't bothered to read the thread, making it easier to escape from chain grabs would make my friends rage less when I play as Ice Climbers. :troll:
 

grizby2

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At the risk of repeating what someone else has said because I haven't bothered to read the thread, making it easier to escape from chain grabs would make my friends rage less when I play as Ice Climbers. :troll:
ahh ice climbers~

theres just SOMETHING about them that makes chain grabbing seem "okay." haha.


@ Biz_R_0, do nana's moves share the same combo as popo's? if not, then ice climbers could chain grab 2 times.
that way they can keep consecutive grabs without being the essence of **** in the next smash eh?
 

-LzR-

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Either way chaingrabs should remain untouched for the most part while the deathgrabs or seriously polarizing ones should be limited.
 

-LzR-

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I don't see how chaingrabs are problematic. As long as they don't take a whole stock or something or have certain conditions, like with Icies.
 

Biz_R_0

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Grab-release stuff. And either way, I don't see how we'd lose anything of significant value if we sacrificed them for a guaranteed anti-infinite grab system.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Grab-release stuff. And either way, I don't see how we'd lose anything of significant value if we sacrificed them for a guaranteed anti-infinite grab system.
If you grab an opponent, who's to say you don't deserve a free non-throw off it?

I think that's fair as long as it only happened via air-release and was impossible to re-grab in that situation. Infinite grabs are only a problem because there were wild differences between release animations. I'm okay with things like Squirtle grab -> running re-grab, even. I just don't want characters to be able to grab me indefinitely without being able to do anything about it once I'm there, given how safe and useful grabs are to begin with.
 

Supreme Dirt

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or we could just y'know
not have chaingrabs?
and bypass the need to have some silly hack fix.
 

-LzR-

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Chaingrabs are only bad if the mechanics are bad. Look at Melee for an example of good chaingrabs.
 

Biz_R_0

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If you grab an opponent, who's to say you don't deserve a free non-throw off it?
Infinitely until kill percent against a wall, making all stages with walls insta-banned? This is a good thing?

Chaingrabs are only bad if the mechanics are bad. Look at Melee for an example of good chaingrabs.
But how are they good? Why do we need them? How would the game suffer without them? That's what I've been asking, because none of you have even attempted to explain why getting rid of all chaingrabs wouldn't be worth an absolute surefire way of getting rid of infinite chan grabs that's simple and affects nothing else.
 

-LzR-

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To me a throw to throw combo isn't any different to any other combo. As long as it's not an infinite or bull**** it's fine.
 

Biz_R_0

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You're just saying why it's not bad, tell me why it's good or why the sacrifice wouldn't be worth it.
 

Biz_R_0

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So would taking away infinites.

edit: How about this; after a move hits x amount of times in a combo, it will whiff until the combo ends. That would end all infinites, not just chaingrabs, and not sacrifice anything but infinites.
 

TheReflexWonder

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edit: How about this; after a move hits x amount of times in a combo, it will whiff until the combo ends. That would end all infinites, not just chaingrabs, and not sacrifice anything but infinites.
Then what counts as a combo becomes the main concern. If it's being in a constant state of hitstun, people will just be able to abuse things like jab -> grab to get around it. If it's time-based, people would just wait longer between throws, etc. Hitstun scaling wouldn't be too difficult to implement, I guess, but, that also suffers from the same problem as defining a combo, and with Smash already having a solid focus on individual hits, it could make balance difficult, as you don't have to worry about any of that if you use a character like, say, Ike.

Infinitely until kill percent against a wall, making all stages with walls insta-banned? This is a good thing?

But how are they good? Why do we need them? How would the game suffer without them? That's what I've been asking, because none of you have even attempted to explain why getting rid of all chaingrabs wouldn't be worth an absolute surefire way of getting rid of infinite chan grabs that's simple and affects nothing else.
I just said they would be okay if grab-release -> re-grab wasn't a possibility, because the potential for an infinite would be overcentralizing when you consider the negligible risk.

That said, in the case of stages with walls AND it not affecting a great deal of the cast (such as the Squirtle air-release -> running grab), I think that's fine, too. Very specific matchup trouble on very specific stages would just be a weakness of a character, like how tethers can't recover well on Port Town Aero Dive. Either way, it's not grounds for auto-ban as long as the stages are designed well (who says you have to be on the ground connected to a wall?) and it doesn't degenerate general gameplay. If every other character functions just fine, and it's just a bad Squirtle level, then he's perfectly capable of banning it, since it just gives Squirtle a weakness to grabs on every other level, which can be considered a balance thing, and not necessarily an issue.

Attempting to change the grab/throw system in a universal way to prevent any possible chaingrabbing would lead to a huge reduction in varied kinds of grabs.

If you prevent throws from ever putting the opponent close enough to grab again while vulnerable, you've eliminated a large portion of the tech chase part of competitive play. Again, very little room for follow-ups.

If you prevent the ability to grab while the opponent is still in hitstun, many short strings such as weak hit -> grab would be greatly limited.

If you prevent the opponent from being grabbed immediately after being thrown or grab-released (on a timer or something), you limit combo opportunities. Saying that U-Throw -> U-Throw shouldn't be a thing is like saying U-Tilt -> U-Tilt shouldn't be a thing.

I imagine the best "fix" would be to give all throws that put the opponent in a grabbable position afterward decent knockback growth, as it prevents chaingrabs from lasting very long. Again, though, giving characters different weights and fall speeds will inevitably make some characters more susceptible than others, though, again, it's just like how Bowser in Brawl or Fox in Melee are easier to combo than most characters.

As far as mindless chaingrabs for long periods of time are concerned, that's REALLY easy to fix. Just make grab-release frame data identical for the whole cast, don't give any characters an air-release animation that ends with the opponent being able to re-grab (at least in place), and don't give characters throws with no knockback growth the ability to chain into themselves. Universal fixes that take minimal effort and fix any reasonable problem associated with chaingrabbing. Brawl was just not designed with those basic concepts in mind. :(
 

Big-Cat

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durrr, why r combos gud ur not tellin me y they gud
I believe Biz_R_0's primary concern is about infinites and how they degrade the game in the long run.

Does removing most chain grabs take away something from the game? The obvious answer is yes. Is it a good thing, in my opinion yes. I hate all infinites, especially if a character is designed to use it as their primary damage dealer. In fact, how is anyone okay with how the Ice Climbers have turned out?

Now, not all chain grabs are bad. Tech chase ones are mostly fine because they are good reads on the opponent and are not guaranteed as such and the same goes for all 3D fighter chain grabs as well (albeit differently). Part of the problem with grabs in Smash is that there's no way to counter them outside of mashing upon being grabbed which could easily be fixed if they put freaking tech grabs like every other sensible game out there - even TMNT Smash Up has them. The other is that they can grab aerial opponents when, for balance reasons, this should've been given to only certain attacks (or hit-grabs).

There needs to be some underlying rules behind throws.
  1. Can be escaped by grabbing at the same time or something similar, but no ghetto BS methods.
  2. Throws cannot grab characters in hitstun or in the air unless they are "hit-grabs" or certain command throws (i.e. Bowser's Koopa Klaw, Yoshi, Wario, and Kirby's B).
  3. If a character has a throw that can grab an aerial opponent, they cannot be allowed to combo with it right after. Okizeme is ok.
  4. You can combo after a regular throw.
 

Biz_R_0

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Then what counts as a combo becomes the main concern. If it's being in a constant state of hitstun, people will just be able to abuse things like jab -> grab to get around it. If it's time-based, people would just wait longer between throws, etc.
Why not both? Whiffing time = hitstun + x time afterword.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Why not both? Whiffing time = hitstun + x time afterword.
Because then the game will most likely be skewed toward short, sharp exchanges. There won't be much use for characters who are fast with individually weak attacks, for example. The idea of a strong grab game will fall to the wayside, taking away certain character archetypes.
 

Biz_R_0

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Why are you assuming that this would get rid of all combos, and that grabs will be useless? You main PT, you should know better. edit: to clarify, I meant that Charizard has a phenomenal grab game without chain grabs and Squirtle has many combos that aren't just the same move 5 times. Also to clarify:

after a move hits x amount of times in a combo, it will whiff until the combo ends. That would end all infinites, not just chaingrabs, and not sacrifice anything but infinites.
The number would be different for each move, it wouldn't be a fixed value that applied equally to everything.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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So would taking away infinites.

edit: How about this; after a move hits x amount of times in a combo, it will whiff until the combo ends. That would end all infinites, not just chaingrabs, and not sacrifice anything but infinites.
Basically my suggestion, but with instead of having hitstun cancel, you're having moves just whiff. I think the former is preferable in every sense.

Then what counts as a combo becomes the main concern. If it's being in a constant state of hitstun, people will just be able to abuse things like jab -> grab to get around it. If it's time-based, people would just wait longer between throws, etc. Hitstun scaling wouldn't be too difficult to implement, I guess, but, that also suffers from the same problem as defining a combo, and with Smash already having a solid focus on individual hits, it could make balance difficult, as you don't have to worry about any of that if you use a character like, say, Ike.

I don't see how the a jab is that much of a problem. Are we talking about Melee ground jab resets or are we talking about jabs like in Ike's wall chaingrabs? Aren't the latter escapable?


I also agree that grab releases should be frame neutral if not negative. (Universal 1 or 2 frames of frame disadvantage upon grab release don't sound bad.)
 

metho

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Chain grabs will be fine as long as there are options for the person getting grabbed and the person chain grabbing needs to predict some stuff to continue the chain.
 
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