Elite Smash?

KingDadada

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1. Elite Smash is maybe something like 10% good players, 90% dumb junk. I've said it ad nauseam, I got knocked out of elite smash most recently by someone with their preferred rules at 1 stock, 3 minutes. It went to sudden death and I lost. I haven't seen elite since.
2. If you want to maintain Elite Smash status, you have to play for GSP, not for practice or for fun. Meaning you have to play a bit dirty or just generally be phenomenal with matchup fundamentals. Never rematch anyone you think could have a chance in hell at beating you. Only rematch those you beat into the dirt.
3. Don't set your preferred rules to Omega forms. FD helps zoners/campers, especially when there's some input lag. If they're just deliberately running and not fighting at all, well, clearly they have the mindset for obtaining elite smash and you, trying to play the game like a normal individual, do not.

Just saying, I stopped chasing it. Nintendo doesn't understand online matchmaking and the lengths people will go to just to get the W. I think that they forgot that it's possible to be bad sport. You can play better people using other online venues within the game.
It's pointless to care about short-term gsp swings. If a player dodges rematches of spam strategies and only rematches players they win against, then rages when they can't beat a pk fire spamming Ness, it's really their fault. Short-term gsp might fall, but you get better faster playing people that beat you, not stomping people you can beat easily.

People are going to keep using and abusing the moves that are effective against you. I understand some people are just less fun to play against due to their playstyle, but every game can be good practice.

That said, staying in elite gets easier as you get better. When I first made it in, I'd get kicked in and out pretty much every time I played. That's normal because your skill is just starting to be good enough to make it to the threshold.
 

Sean²

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It's pointless to care about short-term gsp swings. If a player dodges rematches of spam strategies and only rematches players they win against, then rages when they can't beat a pk fire spamming Ness, it's really their fault. Short-term gsp might fall, but you get better faster playing people that beat you, not stomping people you can beat easily.

People are going to keep using and abusing the moves that are effective against you. I understand some people are just less fun to play against due to their playstyle, but every game can be good practice.

That said, staying in elite gets easier as you get better. When I first made it in, I'd get kicked in and out pretty much every time I played. That's normal because your skill is just starting to be good enough to make it to the threshold.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but I think you missed my point. It's very obvious that to get better, you have to play people that beat you consistently. I've known this for years. I don't care whatsoever about GSP. It's a flawed system that is easily abused.

The guy I quoted was complaining that elite smash was just spam and camping, and was getting tilted that he was struggling to maintain elite smash due to lag, people timing him out, and whatnot. I was giving him tips on getting in and staying in. They aren't tips on how to improve at the game. They're tips on raising your win rate and GSP easily. The average player has to be focusing on gaining wins and GSP quickly and easily to get into elite smash quickly and easily. If your goal is just to get into elite smash, why would you keep rematching a guy who figures out your gameplan and beats you? All it does is lower your win rate and take you ten steps back. Just play people who you destroy and rematch them till they quit. You'll be elite in no time.

Clearly people who have smash fundamentals of a professional have the ability to get in easily regardless of how they play, so I'm not saying good players won't get in just by playing well. Those who were well above average in prior smash games would have had a massive head start over those who weren't. And out of of those players, the ones who play the same characters they did in Smash 4 have had an even bigger head start. If your goal is just to continually improve at the game, you need to throw out GSP entirely and play to learn. I've been in Elite Smash on multiple characters now, because my fundamentals have continually improved with these game mechanics. But I'm constantly just barely touching the cusp of elite with my main. I've taken many, many more wins than any other character. But I've also taken lots of losses in quickplay in an attempt to learn how to the play the character optimally. I'm convinced that unless I go on an absolute tirade of a win streak and get no silly preferred rules, no lag, and no FFAs, my main will never see Elite smash again. I've played 800+ quickplay matches with this character, and maybe close to 30 with all the others combined. I worked up to my overall roster GSP level (the 'prorated' GSP level your characters start with when you've never played them online before) with this character, and cannot reap the only real reward of doing so unless I play another character (or reset my save data), because I practiced with him in quickplay. I would sometimes prefer Elite Smash be removed entirely than have it dangling just out of our reach like a piece of meat to a hungry bear.

Maybe it was done this way intentionally to promote character diversity, maybe the fact that the system can be abused was completely ignored, or maybe they didn't care enough about it to give it a second thought. It's just that, as it is, the system is too flawed to be taken seriously. It's still fun to jump on and play, don't get me wrong. I like practicing new strategies against unsuspecting randoms to see how a real person would react. Way better than what we ever had in Melee and Brawl's heyday. I just don't see a point in intentionally chasing Elite any longer.
 
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KingDadada

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I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but I think you missed my point. It's very obvious that to get better, you have to play people that beat you consistently. I've known this for years. I don't care whatsoever about GSP. It's a flawed system that is easily abused.

The guy I quoted was complaining that elite smash was just spam and camping, and was getting tilted that he was struggling to maintain elite smash due to lag, people timing him out, and whatnot. I was giving him tips on getting in and staying in. They aren't tips on how to improve at the game. They're tips on raising your win rate and GSP easily. The average player has to be focusing on gaining wins and GSP quickly and easily to get into elite smash quickly and easily. If your goal is just to get into elite smash, why would you keep rematching a guy who figures out your gameplan and beats you? All it does is lower your win rate and take you ten steps back. Just play people who you destroy and rematch them till they quit. You'll be elite in no time.

Clearly people who have smash fundamentals of a professional have the ability to get in easily regardless of how they play, so I'm not saying good players won't get in just by playing well. Those who were well above average in prior smash games would have had a massive head start over those who weren't. And out of of those players, the ones who play the same characters they did in Smash 4 have had an even bigger head start. If your goal is just to continually improve at the game, you need to throw out GSP entirely and play to learn. I've been in Elite Smash on multiple characters now, because my fundamentals have continually improved with these game mechanics. But I'm constantly just barely touching the cusp of elite with my main. I've taken many, many more wins than any other character. But I've also taken lots of losses in quickplay in an attempt to learn how to the play the character optimally. I'm convinced that unless I go on an absolute tirade of a win streak and get no silly preferred rules, no lag, and no FFAs, my main will never see Elite smash again. I've played 800+ quickplay matches with this character, and maybe close to 30 with all the others combined. I worked up to my overall roster GSP level (the 'prorated' GSP level your characters start with when you've never played them online before) with this character, and cannot reap the only real reward of doing so unless I play another character (or reset my save data), because I practiced with him in quickplay. I would sometimes prefer Elite Smash be removed entirely than have it dangling just out of our reach like a piece of meat to a hungry bear.

Maybe it was done this way intentionally to promote character diversity, maybe the fact that the system can be abused was completely ignored, or maybe they didn't care enough about it to give it a second thought. It's just that, as it is, the system is too flawed to be taken seriously. It's still fun to jump on and play, don't get me wrong. I like practicing new strategies against unsuspecting randoms to see how a real person would react. Way better than what we ever had in Melee and Brawl's heyday. I just don't see a point in intentionally chasing Elite any longer.
When I used "you" I meant more like players generally. I wasn't really disagreeing with your points, although I don't think it's THAT hard to reach a level where you're consistently in elite smash without feeling like you're exploiting the system or chasing it.. it just takes a bit more practice. I've improved to where I need to be unlucky to get kicked out as opposed to be lucky to get back in. It's an okay goal given that GSP is mostly a black box/moving target, but not worth stressing over.
 

Sean²

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When I used "you" I meant more like players generally. I wasn't really disagreeing with your points, although I don't think it's THAT hard to reach a level where you're consistently in elite smash without feeling like you're exploiting the system or chasing it.. it just takes a bit more practice. I've improved to where I need to be unlucky to get kicked out as opposed to be lucky to get back in. It's an okay goal given that GSP is mostly a black box/moving target, but not worth stressing over.
No, I agree it isn't that hard to reach the level where you're consistently in elite smash. I have several characters there. My issue comes where they prorate all your unplayed online characters to an average of your current GSP, then it's simple to get those into elite smash. But the character you want to be there can't make it in because he has such a high online game count that GSP/win percentage barely raises or lowers after each game. I was basically starting from square one with my main in this game as his previous iteration did not function the same way, so I had to relearn a character I hadn't touched in years. On launch weekend/the week after I took a number of heavy Ls learning different matchups and just kept rematching till I could keep up with them consistently. And I still do the same if we have a good connection. But my W/L was about 50% at the beginning, and if I could set it to ignore those older games, my win rate is probably closer to around 75-80% now. My main gripe with it is that hard work and improvement are no longer acknowledged by the system if you've played too much quickplay.

I know this is a "me" problem. I just think it's frustrating that I can get every other character I dabble with into elite smash, but because of my eagerness to play to learn, I can't get the one guy I want in there, in there. A guy I've placed well in locals with. I know I can always get better, but it's such a mountain to climb, especially with knowing there may be lag and not knowing if your preferred rules are going to be acknowledged or not. It probably doesn't help that I only play 1v1 online.

If I ever care enough I may wipe my save data and start anew or begin a new Nintendo online account after this one expires and see how I fare on a fresh win/loss record, but for now, I just don't think it's worth aiming for Elite Smash. I find plenty of good players in regular quickplay and compensate whatever I could possibly be missing with other online functions. We should put it in the back of our minds and play to learn.
 

leafgreen386

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I find plenty of good players in regular quickplay and compensate whatever I could possibly be missing with other online functions. We should put it in the back of our minds and play to learn.
I find that the difference between players outside of ES and the players *in* ES is like night and day. You can't expect to improve much playing against a bunch of players that you're better than. Non-ES players are capped at a certain rating, whereas ES players will all be around or above that rating (they stay in the ES queue until they leave the quickplay menu, so there are some that are below the threshold).

If you wanted to, you could probably get into ES on that character after no more than a day or so of grinding, but you'll have to play to win. It's just short-term, though; you can go back to playing to learn afterward.

my W/L was about 50% at the beginning, and if I could set it to ignore those older games, my win rate is probably closer to around 75-80% now
You can actually check this in the vault. Character data -> online, and it'll tell you your last 10 match and last 50 match winrates.
 

Sean²

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You're right. I know I could make it in with him if I really tried, I just think their system is stupid for exponentially raising the difficulty just for playing a lot on one character.

Edit: funny enough I got back in after winning 5 straight. Most of these people I would have loved to rematch because they were really good, but didn’t to prevent them from adapting...sorry. 3,107,215 was my magic number this time. Now question is can I maintain it?
 
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Oneiros5321

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How do i make it into elite?
Honestly I think the best way to make it into Elite Smash is to not focus on getting into Elite Smash but on learning and having fun.
And you'll get there eventually. But getting into Elite Smash shouldn't be a point of focus (Elite Smash is no different than normal Quickplay anyway)
 

Telek

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Elite smash is currently between

3,172 (not in) and 3,176 (in) - 11:23 PM (Eastern) Jan 16, 2019
3,186 and 3194 - 6:21 PM Jan 17, 2019
3,186 and 3,217 - 6:39 PM Jan 18, 2019
3,204 and 3,222 - 9:08 PM Jan 18, 2019
3,206 and 3,224 - 11:32 PM Jan 18, 2019

3,237,020 and 3,239,044 - 8:55 AM Jan 19, 2019
3,273,785 and 3,275,774 - 11:27 AM Jan 20, 2019

3,300 and 3,316 - 5:41 PM Jan 21, 2019


*My apologies for infrequent updates it is dictated by both my ability to make time to play and my having characters with very similar GSPs near the cutoff which is difficult with few characters but should improve over time
 
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Telek

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Then you're too low =)

I'm going to keep my above post updated as possible, but it's hard to get things to fall exactly in the right area. That being said, the values are only really accurate when they are posted, and will quickly rise from there. The threshold is at most at about 3,217 right now.
 

Sean²

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So, I'm starting to wonder if regional matchmaking is tripping up some people's Elite experience. If you live in an area that has very little Smash presence and you're pretty good at your preferred mode, you're probably going to jump into and stay in Elite pretty fast. But if you live in an area with high competitive Smash presence, you may have more issues staying in if they play online. I'm right around the MD/VA area which has a huge Smash scene. How many of them play online I don't know, but if they're playing locals in the area as well, then their skill will generally be miles above the common quickplay fare.

I run into people online outside of Elite that are really good. Good to the point where they could probably place top 5 at area locals. Whether they're playing their mains online or not, I have no idea. And those I run into inside Elite are usually just a tiny bit better, like the guys who would probably hit top 3 regularly at said locals.

Not really trying to john (considering I always get in only to fall back out later on, usually under a period of 48 hours), just speculating.
 
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With 2.0.0 out now and online is back up, my remaining 2 elite characters are now out of elite. I'm assuming with how they've regulated GSP, this might be the same for everyone. But after one match you should be back in as normal. At least, that's from my experience.
 

Wello

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I've yet to get Elite Smash for any character even my main which is Ness. I've been hovering around 3.1-3.4 mil GSP for the last week. Lately I've mostly been playing people in the 3.4-3.6 range and since I'm playing them that means they aren't in Elite Smash either. Just how much GSP do you even need to get Elite? Whats got me worried is that since the minimum for Elite is only going to go up, I fear that I'll never get it. I'm starting to lose a bit of confidence. Is low 3 mil GSP even considered good?
 

Love Tap

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I have no idea how it works. I don't think anyone for sure does. It's a combination of your GSP and win/ratio, that's all we know for sure, but from what I've read everyone's still kind of confused. Also, every day, it appears like the GSP needed to be in elite smash goes up by 100,000 give or take just from observing various people's comments about when they got in.
 
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THE SLOTH

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GSP and Elite Smash requirements are an enigma nobody really seems to fully understand. I'll get Elite Smash with one character, and then surpass that character's GSP with another, but not get Elite Smash for days, if ever. I wouldn't be too concerned with getting into Elite Smash anyways, it's all too easy to fall out of it, and while you can find better players, in my experience, most of the time they leave after one game, win or lose, or its someone using maximum cheese strats to get their GSP up. Low 3 mil isn't bad imo, that's where a good bit of my characters hover around at least (not saying I'm the best point of reference for skill but, you know) and I get some good matches in that range on average.
 

leafgreen386

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Current elite smash threshold is somewhere around 3.6M. The threshold requirement going up for ES doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, since your GSP is going to go up as more people join, too. You only get further away from ES by losing, and you only get closer by winning. Just focus on improving your own play.
 

peekpeek

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GSP and Elite Smash requirements are an enigma nobody really seems to fully understand. I'll get Elite Smash with one character, and then surpass that character's GSP with another, but not get Elite Smash for days, if ever. I wouldn't be too concerned with getting into Elite Smash anyways, it's all too easy to fall out of it, and while you can find better players, in my experience, most of the time they leave after one game, win or lose, or its someone using maximum cheese strats to get their GSP up. Low 3 mil isn't bad imo, that's where a good bit of my characters hover around at least (not saying I'm the best point of reference for skill but, you know) and I get some good matches in that range on average.
Elite Smash isn't really an enigma. Look up the highest GSP, then multiply it by 0.97. That's your threshold, or is within a single win from it.

Current elite smash threshold is somewhere around 3.6M. The threshold requirement going up for ES doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, since your GSP is going to go up as more people join, too. You only get further away from ES by losing, and you only get closer by winning. Just focus on improving your own play.
All of this is right. Worry about winning and losing games, not about the final Rank. Rank gets better when you are winning more than you are losing, and vice versa. The Matchmaking itself is pretty good for playing against people with similar MMRs.

Overall, it is best to ignore GSP itself until you're actually in Elite, because as far as we know GSP scales are separate per character, so if you're playing a less popular character, your GSP will "look" lower than your opponents generally even though your MMR is close enough to match. GSP can be super misleading during the middle chunk of the spectrum, when you're rapidly swinging past people that have never played that character before and their default rating/GSPs.
 
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peekpeek

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Ah, sorry, must've been misinformed. Thanks for the clarification.
I think people are making GSP out to be way more complicated than it really is. It is a Rank system painted over a fairly traditional Elo-esque rating/MMR system. Most of the behavior gets explained by that simple structure and that Ratings are more center-heavy than usual due to the game giving some placeholder/estimate values to characters that the player hasn't used yet.
 

Vintage Icy

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Elite Smash status DOES NOT rely on GSP it relies on your Win Rate, at least 75% or more, meaning if you lose alot you are **** out of luck, because it doesnt count recent battles you'll most likely need a new save file
 

Oneiros5321

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Elite Smash status DOES NOT rely on GSP it relies on your Win Rate, at least 75% or more, meaning if you lose alot you are **** out of luck, because it doesnt count recent battles you'll most likely need a new save file
Hum...then why does everyone get to Elite Smash around the same GSP?
 

Wello

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thanks for the replies. Guess I just need to just keep at it and hopefully I'll get there eventually.
 

leafgreen386

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Elite Smash status DOES NOT rely on GSP it relies on your Win Rate, at least 75% or more, meaning if you lose alot you are **** out of luck, because it doesnt count recent battles you'll most likely need a new save file
You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop spreading misinformation that was circulated by youtubers two months ago before we actually knew anything about GSP or elite smash.

Win rate is correlated to getting into ES, since win rate is correlated with a rising GSP, but in the end, all that matters is actual value of your GSP.
 
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Up0n

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I would say don't focus so much on elite smash being your goal; I've played against 2m GSP that were harder to face than 3.7m. It's all about improving and being consistent. On the other hand, there is a website for a pretty accurate estimate on what GSP you need for elite smash. EliteGSP.com
 

kirby3021

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I do consistently get more difficult matches against better players at higher GSPs (3m+); however, my toughest match was against an amazing opponent who was only at 500k. If you keep playing, keep getting better, and keep winning, you will get there eventually.
 

:-D

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The average GSP to get into elite is about 3,630,000ish then if you get past it then you should be able to get into Elite
 

Itachi_

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Lol, I went on a royal losing streak and lost a butt load of GSP so now my Wolf is at like 300,000 GSP :(
 

IrohDW

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Wello if you want, I'd be willing to play some games with you and give you tips on how to improve. I find that the most important thing people need to get into Elite Smash is a great understanding of the fundamentals of their character.
 
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Cheryl~

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Yeesh, so I was at 3.7 million GSP before playing tonight and I was on such a winning streak I was gaining basically nothing from it. Then I started to lose a bit but still was losing only a 1,000 or so each match, and then it happened. The win-lose streak ratio system set in and I went from 3,730,000 or so to freaking 3,680,000 or something. Worst part is that I didn’t stop my tilt for two more games and lost those two due to playing like a flustered idiot, lol. Aaand then I ended up dropping out of Elite Smash, which sucks... I’d like to pose this question though: what are your guys’ thoughts on the win-lose streak ratio system? (You win a lot you gain a lot of GSP until a certain point, you lose a lot you lose a crap ton of GSP) Personally, I just realized why I should never touch the crappy Quickplay mode and just stick to Arenas lol.
 
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THE SLOTH

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Yeesh, so I was at 3.7 million GSP before playing tonight and I was on such a winning streak I was gaining basically nothing from it. Then I started to lose a bit but still was losing only a 1,000 or so each match, and then it happened. The win-lose streak ratio system set in and I went from 3,730,000 or so to freaking 3,680,000 or something. Worst part is that I didn’t stop my tilt for two more games and lost those two due to playing like a flustered idiot, lol. Aaand then I ended up dropping out of Elite Smash, which sucks... I’d like to pose this question though: what are your guys’ thoughts on the win-lose streak ratio system? (You win a lot you gain a lot of GSP until a certain point, you lose a lot you lose a crap ton of GSP) Personally, I just realized why I should never touch the crappy Quickplay mode and just stick to Arenas lol.
I sometimes sit down for a day and try to get one character to Elite Smash, but it feels like more trouble than it's worth. In Quickplay, 2/3 of the players you run into leave after one match, which is just frustrating, but I understand why, because its too much of a risk to fight against the same person again if you want to maintain your GSP. And I don't know the exact ratios, I often forget to keep my eye on my GSP after some matches, but it also feels like I'm taking one step forward and three steps back. I'll inch up 20,000 - 30,000 points with a win, but the moment I lose? I drop 40,000 - 50,000, and I often don't get a chance to redeem myself because people are playing safe and leaving after one win, which I eventually end up doing in an attempt to maintain my GSP. With so many characters, I get to 3.5 mil, close to breaking into the (estimated) Elite Smash threshold, and then one loss takes me back to 3.4 or worse. The chance of getting paired with someone with a terrible ruleset doesn't help things either (I got paired with a Jigglypuff once, match seemed fine, didn't realize until AFTER they put me to sleep that it was a one stock match).

If I'm looking for 1v1s and chances to improve, I either play Quickplay and outright ignore my GSP so I can rematch whoever's willing to stay and improve with the MU, or go to/make a 1v1 arena, where at the very least, you're guranteed to get a consistent ruleset and people are less likely to leave, especially if you leave the room size small at a 3-4 person max.
 

peekpeek

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Yeesh, so I was at 3.7 million GSP before playing tonight and I was on such a winning streak I was gaining basically nothing from it. Then I started to lose a bit but still was losing only a 1,000 or so each match, and then it happened. The win-lose streak ratio system set in and I went from 3,730,000 or so to freaking 3,680,000 or something. Worst part is that I didn’t stop my tilt for two more games and lost those two due to playing like a flustered idiot, lol. Aaand then I ended up dropping out of Elite Smash, which sucks... I’d like to pose this question though: what are your guys’ thoughts on the win-lose streak ratio system? (You win a lot you gain a lot of GSP until a certain point, you lose a lot you lose a crap ton of GSP) Personally, I just realized why I should never touch the crappy Quickplay mode and just stick to Arenas lol.
That is totally explicable by just regular Rank/Rating mechanics. When you are near the top (high Elite), winning or losing a few doesn't really change your Rank. When you are in a higher density distribution (near the Elite threshold), your rating moves past more players per game, because there are more players in that region of the point distribution.

Being on the other end of the spectrum with a character totally disproves the bolded explanation. Where you are on the opposite side of the Rating curve, the opposite behavior holds (you lose fewer GSP per game as your GSP gets closer to the minimum).
 
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