Elements and Attributes Mafia - Game Over!

[Kantrip]

I think it's silly that you think I would abduct Gheb when he was easily the scummiest slot in the game.

I also don't get your qualms with my claim. It would be dumb to claim a role that can if I want to live until the end of the game and don't have the means to back that up.

I've been looking for an indy because I am dead-set on Gheb being scum.

Still all of this.

I'm also pretty damn sure Gheb and Foxy initiated their own removal from the game, and that they will be coming back. Probably after toNight. I don't see any slot in this game killing NOR abducting them.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I've been looking for an indy because I am dead-set on Gheb being scum.

But that makes no sense. The only scum that REALLY makes sense with Gheb is independent lovers. As mafia, why in the world would he convince Foxy to take himself out of NAR where he can't affect the game KNOWING we were about to mass claim, which he expressed he did not want and KNOWING that he couldn't night kill? He would have effectively given up any chance to influence the game in exchange for what? A chance to let us thin the pool of players that we don't like? I doubt he was trying to dodge an indy or a vig given our night one results. Why would you persist with Gheb mafia if you think he voluntarily left the game temporarily?

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I'm also pretty damn sure Gheb and Foxy initiated their own removal from the game, and that they will be coming back. Probably after toNight. I don't see any slot in this game killing NOR abducting them.

Thing is. I only see you doing it because you are the only one who thinks Gheb is mafia with that level of zeal.

If you don't see anyone in the game going after them, then where is the night kill? And I just explained why it's almost certainly not Gheb, so tell me where else?

 

[Kantrip]

But that makes no sense. The only scum that REALLY makes sense with Gheb is independent lovers. As mafia, why in the world would he convince Foxy to take himself out of NAR where he can't affect the game KNOWING we were about to mass claim, which he expressed he did not want and KNOWING that he couldn't night kill? He would have effectively given up any chance to influence the game in exchange for what? A chance to let us thin the pool of players that we don't like? I doubt he was trying to dodge an indy or a vig given our night one results. Why would you persist with Gheb mafia if you think he voluntarily left the game temporarily?

Because he knew he was in trouble toDay and wanted to stall the Day out. Knowing we were going to mass-claim, AND he was seen hard-defending two scum lynches in a row, he was going to be forced to claim first. Instead, he chose to take himself out of the game for a bit, force us to go a phase without lynching him, and let himself see all our claims to plan how he's going to ride this out. It's desperate, but with both his mates being lynched D1 and D2, it's the best he had. There is NO WAY I see Gheb hard-defending, stonewalling, and picking ANY POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE like he did as town. Not to mention what I pointed out with his contradiction between this and his Bowser Jr Mini mafia play. His stonewalling of Joker and FF's lynches do not line up, and there is no way he is town.

I am more certain on this than I was on Joker, and I was really certain on Joker. Compare this certainty to the certainty I had that RF was scum in LoL UPick when I made that huge case. There is no other reason why those two slots would go missing. No one would abduct an easy lynch.

 

[Kantrip]

Thing is. I only see you doing it because you are the only one who thinks Gheb is mafia with that level of zeal.

If you don't see anyone in the game going after them, then where is the night kill? And I just explained why it's almost certainly not Gheb, so tell me where else?

Why is it almost certainly not Gheb? That's exactly where it was. Gheb was taken out at the start of the Night so couldn't send in a kill.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I think it's silly that you think I would abduct Gheb when he was easily the scummiest slot in the game.

Once more, you're the only one that super sold on Gheb being mafia. Really, you're the only one. You abduct because you think Gheb is mafia and the last threat to you. Without his flip, you will always have the possibility of another mafiat to look for if you need it and will be the only killer left in the game while you still have the necessary three mislynches to win the game for you in JTB, Nabe, and DH/Badwolf (whoever doesn't claim the second protective I mentioned on D2). So short answer, you targeted Gheb BECAUSE he is the grimiest slot in the game from your PoV.

I still bet there's something up with Gheb and Foxy's role. It may just be that they were being so secretive because they're linked. However, I wanted them toasted because I thought they were lovers with an off shot at Gheb being mafia. With the lack of a mafia night kill, the probability of Gheb being mafia degrades quickly. Only now am I reasonably sure he isn't mafia.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Actually, you may not even be that sure that Gheb is scum. If you're bulletproof, you may be trying to redirect independent hunting attention away and win the game in a 1v1v1 by accelerating night phase by abducting while the mafia is shooting.

 

[Kantrip]

Once more, you're the only one that super sold on Gheb being mafia. Really, you're the only one. You abduct because you think Gheb is mafia and the last threat to you. Without his flip, you will always have the possibility of another mafiat to look for if you need it and will be the only killer left in the game while you still have the necessary three mislynches to win the game for you in JTB, Nabe, and DH/Badwolf (whoever doesn't claim the second protective I mentioned on D2). So short answer, you targeted Gheb BECAUSE he is the grimiest slot in the game from your PoV.

I still bet there's something up with Gheb and Foxy's role. It may just be that they were being so secretive because they're linked. However, I wanted them toasted because I thought they were lovers with an off shot at Gheb being mafia. With the lack of a mafia night kill, the probability of Gheb being mafia degrades quickly. Only now am I reasonably sure he isn't mafia.

If I'm an abductor, wouldn't Gheb only come back after my death? Gheb was my direction after FF and Joker scumflips. Why would I remove who I think is the last mafia? That makes no sense.

Seriously, your whole theory falls apart when toNight comes along, another disappearance doesn't happen, Gheb and Foxy come back, and my kill possibly goes off. Where would your vote be if I was 100% town?

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Why is it almost certainly not Gheb? That's exactly where it was. Gheb was taken out at the start of the Night so couldn't send in a kill.

I've been over this.

Gheb would not voluntarily remove himself from the game if he were mafia. Even assuming that he I am wrong in the utmost and that he is mafia, the fact stands that he would not make that decision. This means that there is an independent at play. An abductor or serial killer trying to accelerate night phases by killing targets unlikely to be overlapped with the mafia (and thereby triggering some sort of defense removal mechanism by the neighborhood that acts passively like a BP). So even if Gheb is mafia, you remain my number one favorite target to pick on for independent.

Let me make another post after I finish responding to you before you post again and I'll see if we can make things clearer in what we need.

 

[Kantrip]

Even better, get Nabe to target me. That'll effectively roleblock me if I'm indy, and if a shot goes through on a townie, it'll clear me, no?

 

[Kantrip]

I don't like to use meta defense but have you seen me play indy? It's terrible, my least favourite alignment by far.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

If I'm an abductor, wouldn't Gheb only come back after my death? Gheb was my direction after FF and Joker scumflips. Why would I remove who I think is the last mafia? That makes no sense.

Seriously, your whole theory falls apart when toNight comes along, another disappearance doesn't happen, Gheb and Foxy come back, and my kill possibly goes off. Where would your vote be if I was 100% town?

I will get that last question with finality in just a moment after some more consideration. I don't want to get sidetracked, but for now it depends on whether or not my theory of independents depends on you being the independent or if it is as strong as I think it is. If it holds up as I think it will, probably Ruy. If not (and maybe if so) JTB or Nabe. Probably JTB because his role seems more like a roleblocker despite the fact that they BOTH seem like roleblockers. Those two are definitely my picks for the last mafiat in either case.

Yeah, he probably would come back after your death, but that's all completely irrelevant to your plan of action. In fact, the possibility of Gheb/Foxy returning is MORE of an incentive to deal with an abductor than to disregard him.

Upon consideration, I don't think you necessarily targeted Gheb. You had the freedom in that position in mass claim, to claim whatever you want. I think you probably targetted Foxy because you didn't want your abduction to overlap with the mafia night kill. You got Gheb as a bonus. Originally, I thought it was Gheb you were aiming for in order to insure you weren't night killed, but that doesn't explain where the night kill went. I think you're bulletproof. So the reason you got Gheb, your lead choice for lynch today, is because you weren't aiming for him.

It doesn't go away though. That's the thing. Funnel your resources this way. Where is the mafia night kill?

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Alex is leaving, so you're left with just me now. I'll be back after I use the restroom.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

If you can, give me an exact run down of who was paralyzed what nights and who was magnetized what nights and exactly what the two do and when they take effect. They're running together in my head.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I don't like to use meta defense but have you seen me play indy? It's terrible, my least favourite alignment by far.

Not in memory and not that I care. You're playing well regardless of your alignment because I am damn certain that you are not mafia given Days 1 & 2. You played scum well as the only survivor of a horribly abrupt tragedy in FFT mafia. I really don't give two ****s about this meta defense.

 

[Kantrip]

I'm not seeing why Gheb would choose not to make the choice to remove himself from the game as mafia. The advantage of being dead last in the mass-claim is a big one he would be granting himself by doing so, as well as a guarantee of staying alive.

Targeting Foxy would make a bit more sense since he was super town, but he was nowhere near a threat to an indy Kantrip. I'm not seeing why I would abduct either of those slots as an abductor. I know this is WIFOM if I say it now, but I would definitely go for one of you or Sword. People who are super townie and would be a threat to me as scum.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

@Nabe and JTB - Does your ability take affect the night you use it or the following night? In the case of JTB, if it's the same night you used the ability, then does it forcibly redirect the target to themselves or does it cause the ability to fizzle if it was used on someone else.

 

[Kantrip]

If you can, give me an exact run down of who was paralyzed what nights and who was magnetized what nights and exactly what the two do and when they take effect. They're running together in my head.

This is in my huge post. Magnet makes it so you can only target people who share your alignment, Paralysis makes it so you can only target yourself.

Nabe was paralyzed N1, Badwolf was paralyzed N2.
Nabe was magnetized N1 (due to paralysis), Dark Horse was magnetized N2.

 

[Kantrip]

Not in memory and not that I care. You're playing well regardless of your alignment because I am damn certain that you are not mafia given Days 1 & 2. You played scum well as the only survivor of a horribly abrupt tragedy in FFT mafia. I really don't give two ****s about this meta defense.

Shucks, you've been giving me compliments all game. Be careful or I'll start feeling good about my abilities.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It was aimed at you. That's fairly clear in our outline of the situation. That, or mafia Gheb was abducted before he shot.

As for night one, we've ruled it down to three possibilities.

1.) You really are 50-50. Whether that means 50-50 failure/success and failed to hit anyone or 50-50 kill/abduct and you ended up targetting either us or S&C with a kill that either failed or overlapped with the mafia's, I don't know.
2.) You were roleblocked by FrozenFlame or the other mafiat.
3.) You targeted S&C and the mafia night kill canned him either before or after he was abducted.

And yeah, it pretty much was out of left field. Probably the biggest "Oh ****" moment since Gheb in FFT Mafia discounting the moment where Murderbush realized there was two mafias and that we were in a neighborhood with one on the night we were killed.

FF8.

 

[Kantrip]

Something's still fishy between Nabe and JTB. And there's the anonymous messages at the start of the Day phases, too.

How did the person who sends those know about the magnetism? It happened N1.
Why did Nabe get informed he was paralyzed, but Badwolf didn't?
Why is it that both the people JTB targeted are the ones that had a public announcement about them?

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I'm not seeing why Gheb would choose not to make the choice to remove himself from the game as mafia. The advantage of being dead last in the mass-claim is a big one he would be granting himself by doing so, as well as a guarantee of staying alive.

I don't get what's so hard about this. This is the last time I'm going to go over it, so either challenge what I'm saying or stop implying that I'm wrong.

Gheb would not forcibly remove himself as mafia. A mass claim at this stage that he has no effect on ruins him. He knows there to be a self-watcher, a probable investigative, a crumbing night action manipulator (read:Hando/Nabe), and two protectives. One of these protectives, unless it's Kantrip, is not among the AM, Ruy, Sword, Kantrip foundation of townies that is running the game. If it clears Badwolf, JTB, or DH, then he's fresh out of mislynches unless he can somehow spin it that we should lynch Foxy over him. No, he needs to get a kill off BEFORE we start to organize in order to mitigate the damage he takes from those protectives and investigatives ganging up on him with a plan.

Seriously, the advantage of being last in the safe claim is already heavily mitigated by the fact that he would have a ball and chain on his claim in Foxy even if he wouldn't have to breakthrough a unified town center without any chance to affect it's formation.

[quote="Potassium, post: 15599994, member: 174288"Targeting Foxy would make a bit more sense since he was super town, but he was nowhere near a threat to an indy Kantrip. I'm not seeing why I would abduct either of those slots as an abductor. I know this is WIFOM if I say it now, but I would definitely go for one of you or Sword. People who are super townie and would be a threat to me as scum.[/quote]
I already outlined that targeting me is a hell of a risk for a solo mafiat. It's also a hell of a risk for an abductor who doesn't have full knowledge of how the protectives and the mysterious magnetism plays out. I don't think anyone should have the balls to go for that.

Sworddancer is also a pretty scary target seeing as we left instruction to protect him and you don't know how the protections play out.

If you don't want to end up shooting the same target as the mafia, you settle for second best. Meaning, instead of targetting Ruy (and definitely not targetting yourself) you target Foxy. You target Foxy because he was the next most threatening thing that you felt safe that the mafia would not target.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So Kantrip Indy huh?

Him targetting Gheb is that bad AM? I have a pjhilosphy on my shots, but not everyone will follow on that. Does Kantrip fit this given shooting twice at Gheb, over more likely scum JTB and Nabe?

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

EBWOP:

I'm not seeing why Gheb would choose not to make the choice to remove himself from the game as mafia. The advantage of being dead last in the mass-claim is a big one he would be granting himself by doing so, as well as a guarantee of staying alive.

I don't get what's so hard about this. This is the last time I'm going to go over it, so either challenge what I'm saying or stop implying that I'm wrong.

Gheb would not forcibly remove himself as mafia. A mass claim at this stage that he has no effect on ruins him. He knows there to be a self-watcher, a probable investigative, a crumbing night action manipulator (read:Hando/Nabe), and two protectives. One of these protectives, unless it's Kantrip, is not among the AM, Ruy, Sword, Kantrip foundation of townies that is running the game. If it clears Badwolf, JTB, or DH, then he's fresh out of mislynches unless he can somehow spin it that we should lynch Foxy over him. No, he needs to get a kill off BEFORE we start to organize in order to mitigate the damage he takes from those protectives and investigatives ganging up on him with a plan.

Seriously, the advantage of being last in the safe claim is already heavily mitigated by the fact that he would have a ball and chain on his claim in Foxy even if he wouldn't have to breakthrough a unified town center without any chance to affect it's formation.

Targeting Foxy would make a bit more sense since he was super town, but he was nowhere near a threat to an indy Kantrip. I'm not seeing why I would abduct either of those slots as an abductor. I know this is WIFOM if I say it now, but I would definitely go for one of you or Sword. People who are super townie and would be a threat to me as scum.

I already outlined that targeting me is a hell of a risk for a solo mafiat. It's also a hell of a risk for an abductor who doesn't have full knowledge of how the protectives and the mysterious magnetism plays out. I don't think anyone should have the balls to go for that.

Sworddancer is also a pretty scary target seeing as we left instruction to protect him and you don't know how the protections play out.

If you don't want to end up shooting the same target as the mafia, you settle for second best. Meaning, instead of targetting Ruy (and definitely not targetting yourself) you target Foxy. You target Foxy because he was the next most threatening thing that you felt safe that the mafia would not target.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

FF8.

Yeah, that.

Also, Unvote temporarily until I'm certain I have a grasp on JTB/Nabe.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Being fair him assuming that Gheb was scum was making me lift my eyebrows.

 

[Kantrip]

I don't get what's so hard about this. This is the last time I'm going to go over it, so either challenge what I'm saying or stop implying that I'm wrong.

Gheb would not forcibly remove himself as mafia. A mass claim at this stage that he has no effect on ruins him. He knows there to be a self-watcher, a probable investigative, a crumbing night action manipulator (read:Hando/Nabe), and two protectives. One of these protectives, unless it's Kantrip, is not among the AM, Ruy, Sword, Kantrip foundation of townies that is running the game. If it clears Badwolf, JTB, or DH, then he's fresh out of mislynches unless he can somehow spin it that we should lynch Foxy over him. No, he needs to get a kill off BEFORE we start to organize in order to mitigate the damage he takes from those protectives and investigatives ganging up on him with a plan.

Seriously, the advantage of being last in the safe claim is already heavily mitigated by the fact that he would have a ball and chain on his claim in Foxy even if he wouldn't have to breakthrough a unified town center without any chance to affect it's formation.

[quote="Potassium, post: 15599994, member: 174288"Targeting Foxy would make a bit more sense since he was super town, but he was nowhere near a threat to an indy Kantrip. I'm not seeing why I would abduct either of those slots as an abductor. I know this is WIFOM if I say it now, but I would definitely go for one of you or Sword. People who are super townie and would be a threat to me as scum.

I already outlined that targeting me is a hell of a risk for a solo mafiat. It's also a hell of a risk for an abductor who doesn't have full knowledge of how the protectives and the mysterious magnetism plays out. I don't think anyone should have the balls to go for that.

Sworddancer is also a pretty scary target seeing as we left instruction to protect him and you don't know how the protections play out.

If you don't want to end up shooting the same target as the mafia, you settle for second best. Meaning, instead of targetting Ruy (and definitely not targetting yourself) you target Foxy. You target Foxy because he was the next most threatening thing that you felt safe that the mafia would not target.[/quote]
Sword claimed that his protective only blocks kills when he claimed, targeting you with an abduct would have been safe and my #!1 priority, were I an abductor. No one else is even remotely threatening on the rest of this playerlist, never mind targeting Foxy or Ruy.

Your point on Gheb is WIFOM, but I see your side. I won't push it further.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

This is in my huge post. Magnet makes it so you can only target people who share your alignment, Paralysis makes it so you can only target yourself.

Nabe was paralyzed N1, Badwolf was paralyzed N2.
Nabe was magnetized N1 (due to paralysis), Dark Horse was magnetized N2.

Okay, good. DH and Badwolf are two targets who's actions we have confirmation of already.

Vote Kantrip Again

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Shucks, you've been giving me compliments all game. Be careful or I'll start feeling good about my abilities.

Contrary to popular belief, I am only a horrible monster to people I legit think are awful (coughpjbardullcough) but who seem to think they're hot ****.

 

[Kantrip]

So Kantrip Indy huh?

Him targetting Gheb is that bad AM? I have a pjhilosphy on my shots, but not everyone will follow on that. Does Kantrip fit this given shooting twice at Gheb, over more likely scum JTB and Nabe?

More likely scum JTB and Nabe?

Seriously? Gheb stonewalled both scum lynches in a row! With no good reason. He deflected from PJB to Sword/JTB and from FF to Sword/JTB. Whenever there was a question of "best inactive lynch", he made sure it wasn't FF. He tried to get you to switch from FF to JTB for no reason except that he was convinced JTB had some sort of PJB connection that he never pointed out. He gave thread control to only one slot which was the same slot that was trying to stop a PJB lynch and went on to die that Night. Everything about Gheb radiated the grossest of scummy fumes and the FF scumflip made it even worse. Gheb was by and large the scummiest player going into both Nights that made me say "**** shooting an inactive." Yes, Gheb was that scummy to me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Your certainly post disappearance along with Foxy is why I was second guessing you.

You went for something I really didn't see a lot of people looking at, most likely situation being lovers which is what I assumed. You on the other hand stuck to him being the lat mafia and dropped the indy bomb first.

 

[Kantrip]

Your certainly post disappearance along with Foxy is why I was second guessing you.

You went for something I really didn't see a lot of people looking at, most likely situation being lovers which is what I assumed. You on the other hand stuck to him being the lat mafia and dropped the indy bomb first.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned indy lovers, but I'm so convinced of Gheb's connection to PJB and FF that I think that idea unlikely. Also Foxy has been playing really townie, which is why I see Gheb mafia wayyyy more.

And every time there are neighbours in DGames, one is town and one is scum. It's like a rule. MODs never just make Neghbours both town.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Something's still fishy between Nabe and JTB. And there's the anonymous messages at the start of the Day phases, too.

Yeah, I think one of them is mafia, so I agree.

How did the person who sends those know about the magnetism? It happened N1.

Mafia Rolecop. That, or Nabe is mafia.

Why did Nabe get informed he was paralyzed, but Badwolf didn't?

Badwolf's ability is toggle on/toggle off. Toggle off doesn't target if I haven't missed my guess.

Why is it that both the people JTB targeted are the ones that had a public announcement about them?

Coincidence? Gonna go with coincidence seeing as it is a viable answer and I can think of none more likely.




STOP SIDETRACKING.

All of that can be dealt with, but you're diverting the attention away from a rather profitable discussion. Either I can find a scum or you can convince me not to lead a mislynch. As town, both of us benefit from having this out. You jumping at other avenues when you didn't jump at them earlier in the day phase with this much fervor is not helping your case.

 

[Gova]

1. Nabe ()
2. BadWolf28738 ()
3. Aggressive Mediation ()
4. Dark Horse ()
6. JTB ()
8. Potassium (AM),
9. Sworddancer. ()
10. Red Ruy ()

Not voting: Nabe, BW, DH, JTB, K, Sword, RR

With 8 playing it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline is Monday, June 27th at 11:59 PM CST (GMT-6).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned indy lovers, but I'm so convinced of Gheb's connection to PJB and FF that I think that idea unlikely. Also Foxy has been playing really townie, which is why I see Gheb mafia wayyyy more.

And every time there are neighbours in DGames, one is town and one is scum. It's like a rule. MODs never just make Neghbours both town.

Originally on of my older set-ups had them both as town til I had to rework something in the set-up.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

So Kantrip Indy huh?

Him targetting Gheb is that bad AM? I have a pjhilosphy on my shots, but not everyone will follow on that. Does Kantrip fit this given shooting twice at Gheb, over more likely scum JTB and Nabe?

More likely scum does not necessarily matter because it is in the eye of the beholder. However, inactive lurker pool that has been pointedly requested for a vig is kind of a big deal. In either case, the crux of the issue lies not with his choice of night kill targets, but that his actions are unprovable, not optimal, and he lines up with the other factors that I've been pounding at which point toward there being an indy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I read all of this.

Still think lynching JTB/Nabe is better.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

More likely scum does not necessarily matter because it is in the eye of the beholder. However, inactive lurker pool that has been pointedly requested for a vig is kind of a big deal. In either case, the crux of the issue lies not with his choice of night kill targets, but that his actions are unprovable, not optimal, and he lines up with the other factors that I've been pounding at which point toward there being an indy.

Unprovable off random chance?

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Sword claimed that his protective only blocks kills when he claimed, targeting you with an abduct would have been safe and my #!1 priority, were I an abductor. No one else is even remotely threatening on the rest of this playerlist, never mind targeting Foxy or Ruy.

Your point on Gheb is WIFOM, but I see your side. I won't push it further.

Pretty sure he was more vague than that. I'll look it up. In either case, I have been preaching that you're town up until thirty minutes ago. That alone is a possible explanation off the top of my head.

 

[Kantrip]

What do you want me to address in this current discusion? I've talked about why me as an abductor doesn't clear things up and a solution as a compromise (which is basically wait a phase and see if your theory still holds up).

How can you think JTB or Nabe are the last mafia? Look at how they responded to the wagons of their mates. Just look at it and stop this bull****. Your conspiracy theories are going overboard. Nabe/JTB are not mafia with how they hopped on their mates wagons, at all. If there's a discrepancy within them, one of them is indy. I'm sorry if that means I'm deflecting or sidetracking, but that's what I care about right now. I don't care about bickering about you with your conspiracy theories.