Editoral: A Smashing Debate, Part 1

Two or three stocks? Customs on or off? Miis legal or not? Is Halberd still viable? These hot topics have haunted the Smash community ever since the game released. Will there ever be an agreement? Who knows; what is for sure is that here at Smashboards we want to give our opinions.

Here is where the Smashing Debate comes to life. Through the next weeks we're going to publish parts of this series discussing the issues that attack our stability as a community. And, as part of the #MiiWiik, we're starting right off with the topic that has generated the most debate lately: Mii Legality.

WARNING
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If you suffer from attacks of rage, saltiness, or if you dislike hearing other people's opinions, this series of articles may provoke serious anger and loss of friends. You have been warned.

Let's get started.

The Issue
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The key to understanding this problem is knowing how matchups (MUs) work. Players compare one character's strengths to another's and pinpoint who struggles against who. Miis require a major level of understanding, as they can be created to be anything from paper-thin and 8 feet tall to a ball-round, 3-foot character. These factors obviously make the abilities of the character fluctuate and gives Miis a plethora of variability in combo and damage potential, defense and other stats. Now, these factors, combined with the already wide potential combinations with customs, creates a problem.

The Perspectives​

"All Miis Matter": Miis should be completely legal - all 27 combinations - but players should still be limited to using the standard, pre-installed Miis of medium sizes. The alternative Special Moves can't be considered "customs" or equals to other characters' customs because they are already unlocked and present totally different moves, instead of just some changes in damage, speed, and one or two effects.

Supports: All combinations allowed, medium sizes.

1111: Miis should be legal, but limited to their 1111 moveset. The ability to use all Miis creates some over-powered combinations and there's no way to control it as they are basically 81 different characters. This choice saves tournament organizers (TOs) a lot of work, and the 1111 setup is fairly balanced. With 81 different movesets, the MUs multiply and players have a lot of difficulty knowing how all of them work.

Supports: 1111 setups for all styles, medium sizes.

Our Opinions​

We brought in two of our writers to give their points of view on the subject.

Nova​

This is just an opinion, but I think there's ZERO reason to limit the movesets of 3 whole characters. Their move variations do not change how their matchups are played, just the options they have in certain situations. Almost all the arguments in favor of the ban translate to "I don't know the matchup, and I don't want to know" (Disclaimer: Almost all of them.)

I understand that having the option to counterpick moves is a huge advantages, but that can be solved by banning just that. One option that some tournaments commonly use is to let the Mii player choose any combination of moves, but limit them to one combination per set. That's one. There's also another more extreme option: decide on an "ultimate" moveset, and after it's decided, there's no going back.

While this may seem horrible, it's a lot better than just sticking to 1111, which is the main reason Mii mains are non-existent. Besides, even if the unthinkable happens and we allow Miis to use all their moves, counterpick or not, they'll still be standard size so you don't need to learn combo and kill percentages for all the variations, just one.

Finally, let me ask you something: how many Mii mains do you honestly expect to face in your bracket? If you don't drown in pools, you'll be lucky to face more than two. And even if you do, you can pretty much counterpick Sheik and win (provided that you can, in fact, press buttons). So, why do we keep banning three potential characters that can be viable just for some problems that can be solved easily? We lose virtually nothing and gain a lot just by letting them free of their chains. I'll let you decide which is better.

OniKirby​

The magic number, 1111. Many think that this number solves everything. For some, it does.

To me, there's no thing as an over-powered character; even Melee Fox and Brawl Meta Knight. You can, after all, defeat a Melee Fox with Kirby; you can, after all, defeat a Brawl Meta Knight with Ganondorf. Let's just say that "it's not the bow, it's the archer". It does not matter if you have a great character in your hands, if you have no hands.

Miis are just more versatile than other characters, and alternative moves do not change the MUs entirely; special moves are just 33% of a character's moveset. Characters in Smash are made to represent their home game. Miis are a way to represent yourself by changing aspects of your creation, moving and switching. In the end, a Mii should reflect you, and not your limitations.

Cutting aside 26 combinations from a character is reducing to a minimum what the character is. It's like playing Fox only using lasers, or playing Ryu with only the light version of his attacks. The alternative moves are made to change your style, and reflect how you like to play. Let's think for a second. By banning customs, normal characters lose their ability to select non-1111 variations. Mii Fighters' movesets cannot be considered "customs" in the same sense: by banning them they are losing what makes them interesting characters.

I'm aware of organizing issues, and they are real. Still, the game can keep 99 Mii Fighters, enough so that all 81 combinations are available on the console using the 3DS-to-Console method.

Conclusion​

We agree that Miis should be legal in some way, but not just 1111, as this restricts a player's options. In the end, we want to know your opinion! Let us know what you think about this topic, and stay tuned for the next part of the Smashing Debate.

 

The only reason that there's been a debate over Mii fighters is because SmashCapps posted that terrible, moronic article a week ago and tried to push a false dichotomy on everybody. Until that point, the only "debate" about the Smash 4 ruleset had been whether to use 2-stock or 3-stock. Players like 3-stock because it gives more time for people to adapt to their opponents, and TOs like 2-stock because they don't want to have their precious viewers leave and give them less money. That's it. It's TOs being more concerned about how much money they're making than running a good tournament for their players.

I would say that we need an article or two about that, except there is no "other side" to 2-stock vs. 3-stock. It's 3-stock and people who don't play tournament. I'm sure SmashCapps will find a way to screw an article like that up regardless.

First
If you are at a high enough level you will adapt mid match. It is how good people play all the time by mixing up their recoveries or trying to bait... blah blah etc... If you can't do that then you are most likely not making top 32 anyway so 2 stocks or 3 doesn't matter.

Second
That's really not fair to say since TO's put in a lot of time and work to even run a small tournament.

 

First
If you are at a high enough level you will adapt mid match. It is how good people play all the time by mixing up their recoveries or trying to bait... blah blah etc... If you can't do that then you are most likely not making top 32 anyway so 2 stocks or 3 doesn't matter.

"Top 32"

Yeah, it's clear you don't play often. Our local takes place in my state's second-largest city. We can usually get about 32 for Smash 4, but not many more than that.

Second
That's really not fair to say since TO's put in a lot of time and work to even run a small tournament.

It's entirely fair to say. More importantly, it's correct. TOs may put in a lot of time, but in the end the reason everyone still uses 2-stock is because TOs run tournaments for their wallets first and the community second.

 

"Top 32"

Yeah, it's clear you don't play often. Our local takes place in my state's second-largest city. We can usually get about 32 for Smash 4, but not many more than that.


It's entirely fair to say. More importantly, it's correct. TOs may put in a lot of time, but in the end the reason everyone still uses 2-stock is because TOs run tournaments for their wallets first and the community second.

Locals are nice to practice but getting first at a local is cake compared to getting first or even TOP32 at Ktar, Pax, Evo so yeah. Don't see why you countered me on that point.

Which TO's are you seeing do this because everyone on channel and in venue always comment about how good the TO's for Xanadu and GUMs are. I doubt people like to just be volunteers and give up their time for free. While I have never been a TO, again people on channel and in venue always say how much they do. Now I realize 2 out of thousands don't amount to much but I just wanted to give examples which is more than you did when you just made a general statement that all of them are greedy.

 

They're not unlockable, and add far less complication to the game than customs do.

But the problem is that if you start banning certain customs, then the community will inevitably become fractured. There'll be a divide on which customs are OP -- where do you draw the line?

A convenient answer to that question happens to be Mii customs. Non-Mii customs are impractical in other ways too, so it works out quite nicely.

Customs take hours and hours of out-of-the-way grinding to obtain. Mii customs are unlocked right from the get-go. I fail to see the logic here.

DLC fighters are much less of a chore to get than Mii customs, however, especially when you're doing it across multiple consoles. Customs are extremely out-of-the-way -- you'll need to spend hours and hours doing side modes to unlock them. (If you've heard of a faster method, link it here.)

DLC fighters, on the other hand, are much easier to obtain -- just buy them from the eShop, and wait the 5 minutes or so for them to download (not counting the actual patch, but it's not like anyone's going to skip out on that).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

So should we treat 75m like we do Smashville (i.e. make it tourney legal) because they're both stages? No -- they're vastly different, just like Mii customs and regular customs are different. "Because we did it to customs" isn't a valid reason to apply any rules or restrictions to Mii customs -- they are two separate cases.

It's not grind you just leave your Wii u on for like 5 days and you have them. Again, using that logic, unlockable chracaters should be banned in all games, it has never been an issue and isn't the reason customs are banned. It takes the same amount of time to unlock all brawl characters as it does to gwt all customs, and there are automatic ways to get customs. I know its something people complained about, but it isnt a factor that has ever decided anything in competetive smash and shouldnt now. My argument isn't "because we did it to customs", it's that these ARE customs, and should be banned for the same reason. I agree that there is no way to draw the line which is why we ban all customs. That stage anogy doesn't apply at all because we have set reasons we ban stages and the reason you're stating we banned customs just arent true or apply to miis just as much as the majority of the cast's customs. You say they don't make the game complicated like other customs but they affect how complicated it is the same or even more so as any other custom set because of the unique factor. You are making special exception when you say it isn't a big deal because it's just this " one set ", which applies to the complicated factor and the inconvenience factor which were the actual two main reasons they banned customs and applies to Miis just as much as any other custom.

 

Also no, TOs don't just run it for there wallets, I take that hugely offensive to my TOs, who have chosen two stock because they are working very hard to run their growing tournaments on their own and a quicker stock count is the best way for our community at the moment.

 

Also no, TOs don't just run it for there wallets, I take that hugely offensive to my TOs, who have chosen two stock because they are working very hard to run their growing tournaments on their own and a quicker stock count is the best way for our community at the moment.

Have they actually tried 3-stock? More than just once or twice? If no, your statement is invalid and I couldn't care less how offended you are by the truth. It's been shown that players overwhelmingly prefer 3-stock over 2-stock. If your TO hasn't given a serious effort to run 3-stock Smash 4 he's part of the problem.

 

It's not grind you just leave your Wii u on for like 5 days and you have them.

I'm just not sold that the majority of Smash players are going to go through that trouble (especially when you have to manually restart the match every 90 minutes).

Also, out of curiosity, where are you getting the 5-day figure from?

Again, using that logic, unlockable chracaters should be banned in all games, it has never been an issue and isn't the reason customs are banned. It takes the same amount of time to unlock all brawl characters as it does to gwt all customs, and there are automatic ways to get customs.

Except in Brawl, you can just copy over a 100% save file.

I know its something people complained about, but it isnt a factor that has ever decided anything in competetive smash and shouldnt now. My argument isn't "because we did it to customs", it's that these ARE customs, and should be banned for the same reason.

So in other words, "we banned other customs, so we should ban Mii customs." In other words, "because we did it to customs."

Mii customs are not the same as other customs. Normal customs were banned because of logistical impracticality, being overpowered, and overcomplicating the metagame to a ridiculous degree. These points do not apply to Miis. They are not valid reasons to ban Mii customs.

I agree that there is no way to draw the line which is why we ban all customs.

There is a way, though - allow the customs that aren't impractical (Miis and possibly Palutena), and ban the ones that are (the rest). The former group also happens to not be overpowered, which works out quite nicely.

That stage anogy doesn't apply at all because we have set reasons we ban stages

Like the reasons we have for banning customs; the reasons that don't apply to Miis (like the reasons we ban Hyrule Temple don't apply to Battlefield).

and the reason you're stating we banned customs just arent true or apply to miis just as much as the majority of the cast's customs.

Prove it.

You say they don't make the game complicated like other customs but they affect how complicated it is the same or even more so as any other custom set because of the unique factor.

24 custom moves are far less complex than 400+ custom moves, that much should be obvious. On top of that, the individual moves themselves tend to be less complex, often clones of other characters' moves (reducing the amount of actual new moves you need to become familiar with). If anything, the "unique factor" just makes each one more memorable. "The tornado projectile," "the Link up b," "the Falcon Kick with a sword," as opposed to "the version of this move that has different hitbox properties and maybe a visual effect or something." They're more visually distinct, and more memorable -- ergo, easier to learn. (Although, the fact that there 15x+ more customs than Mii moves by itself proves the point of less complexity, but hey, food for thought.)

You are making special exception when you say it isn't a big deal because it's just this " one set ", which applies to the complicated factor and the inconvenience factor which were the actual two main reasons they banned customs and applies to Miis just as much as any other custom.

Mii customs add far less complexity than other customs do, as explained above (let alone how the scarcity of Mii players makes it raw that it will actually come into effect). They are not inconvenient, because they don't have to be unlocked (which takes forever to do with other customs). If you have to leave your system on for five days straight (heck, more than that if you're not interested in pressing the "start match" button every hour-and-a-half, 24/7), it's far from convenient.

THESE POINTS DO NOT APLLY TO MIIS. THEY ARE NOT VALID REASONS TO BAN MII CUSTOMS. I put such a heavy emphasis on this because you seem to be ignoring it. Ignore what we did to other customs, just for a moment, and ask yourself if there's anything actually wrong with the Mii customs themselves that makes them detrimental to tournaments.

 

Have they actually tried 3-stock? More than just once or twice? If no, your statement is invalid and I couldn't care less how offended you are by the truth. It's been shown that players overwhelmingly prefer 3-stock over 2-stock. If your TO hasn't given a serious effort to run 3-stock Smash 4 he's part of the problem.

Doesn't Japan also run 2 stocks? I believe EU does 3 but why should it change just because you say everyone wants 3? If that is so then 3 should be the standard

 

I'm just not sold that the majority of Smash players are going to go through that trouble (especially when you have to manually restart the match every 90 minutes).

Also, out of curiosity, where are you getting the 5-day figure from?

Except in Brawl, you can just copy over a 100% save file.

So in other words, "we banned other customs, so we should ban Mii customs." In other words, "because we did it to customs."

Mii customs are not the same as other customs. Normal customs were banned because of logistical impracticality, being overpowered, and overcomplicating the metagame to a ridiculous degree. These points do not apply to Miis. They are not valid reasons to ban Mii customs.

There is a way, though - allow the customs that aren't impractical (Miis and possibly Palutena), and ban the ones that are (the rest). The former group also happens to not be overpowered, which works out quite nicely.

Like the reasons we have for banning customs; the reasons that don't apply to Miis (like the reasons we ban Hyrule Temple don't apply to Battlefield).

Prove it.

24 custom moves are far less complex than 400+ custom moves, that much should be obvious. On top of that, the individual moves themselves tend to be less complex, often clones of other characters' moves (reducing the amount of actual new moves you need to become familiar with). If anything, the "unique factor" just makes each one more memorable. "The tornado projectile," "the Link up b," "the Falcon Kick with a sword," as opposed to "the version of this move that has different hitbox properties and maybe a visual effect or something." They're more visually distinct, and more memorable -- ergo, easier to learn. (Although, the fact that there 15x+ more customs than Mii moves by itself proves the point of less complexity, but hey, food for thought.)

Mii customs add far less complexity than other customs do, as explained above (let alone how the scarcity of Mii players makes it raw that it will actually come into effect). They are not inconvenient, because they don't have to be unlocked (which takes forever to do with other customs). If you have to leave your system on for five days straight (heck, more than that if you're not interested in pressing the "start match" button every hour-and-a-half, 24/7), it's far from convenient.

THESE POINTS DO NOT APLLY TO MIIS. THEY ARE NOT VALID REASONS TO BAN MII CUSTOMS. I put such a heavy emphasis on this because you seem to be ignoring it. Ignore what we did to other customs, just for a moment, and ask yourself if there's anything actually wrong with the Mii customs themselves that makes them detrimental to tournaments.

When I say 'inconvenient' I'm talking about during tournaments, not inconvenient to attain. If your argument can equally be applied to other customs then it is invalid because you are making a special exception for miis. You don't think miis are the same because of one reason that has never ever been a deciding factor and no other reasons that can't be equally applied to any other individual set. It doesn't add up. It isn't competitive. It really adds nothing to the game, it isn't like we're lacking in character variety. That is where I stand. I'm not ignoring your point I just reject it as legitimate because again the same thing could be said for ganons or Bowsers customs, minus the attainability which I don't think is important. I mean again, it's just opinion. You can say Mii customs are special and I can say no they aren't but the specifics and the importance of each specific is all opinions so I'll leave it at that. We just value certain aspects differently.

 

Good article but the only thing I have against the Mii argument for being able to have any moveset is flawed. Most of the arguments here are basically saying that since it is in the game, it should be legal.

This is the only problem I have wit Miis being legal with any moveset. If this is the mindset people have we might as well make customs and all stages legal.

I mean, their in the game right?

 

It really does seem that the goal of tournaments is to generally pick stages that keep the game the same as it always has been and the same with characters. Players that have been at this a long time don't want surprises because that means they have to prepare for unknown.
If there is a stage that is detrimental to your character, ban that stage. If there is a character that customs on or off is hard for your character, practice that MU.
I just finished watching some Mortal Kombat match ups and I was surprised that each character has 3 variables from the start. In a sense, each character has three options, or three total move set options, same as customs. That gives players flexibility to change the game to their individual style or enhance the MU against certain characters.
I say let Mii characters in as well as customs and let's just learn them. I found when customs were on, there was a far larger pool of different characters being used because it made it more challenging for the typical higher tiers. But that should be a good thing because a greater number of the case is being consistently used and more variety comes in.
What would happen if the next smash has even more variety? Will we keep holding back new ways to play just to keep it "me lee- like"?

 

It really does seem that the goal of tournaments is to generally pick stages that keep the game the same as it always has been and the same with characters. Players that have been at this a long time don't want surprises because that means they have to prepare for unknown.
If there is a stage that is detrimental to your character, ban that stage. If there is a character that customs on or off is hard for your character, practice that MU.
I just finished watching some Mortal Kombat match ups and I was surprised that each character has 3 variables from the start. In a sense, each character has three options, or three total move set options, same as customs. That gives players flexibility to change the game to their individual style or enhance the MU against certain characters.
I say let Mii characters in as well as customs and let's just learn them. I found when customs were on, there was a far larger pool of different characters being used because it made it more challenging for the typical higher tiers. But that should be a good thing because a greater number of the case is being consistently used and more variety comes in.
What would happen if the next smash has even more variety? Will we keep holding back new ways to play just to keep it "me lee- like"?

That variety you're seeing is temporary. It's a result of people not being aware of how the game was balanced, and would have actually ended up hurting variety if customs did in fact make the game less balanced which most people think it did.
I don't know if that's relevant to the mii argument but I was just pointing that out.

 

Extremely confused as to why we have to argue about this. Shouldn't it be obvious? Miis were never overpowered in the first place, why can't we just use their optimal size and moveset? And as the article said, changing the customs wouldn't really change the MUs by a whole lot. I wanna see more Miis in tourneys, that's all.

 

I actually think the "one combination per match" is an interesting way to allow Miis in tournaments.

Also, pretty sure there is more than just 27 combinations.

 

Everyone worries about facing a character with a infinite amount of playstyles but people who play Mii fighter choose the best moveset for their character

So worrying about a character with infinite moveset doesn't apply cause most player will choose a best moveset and you can learn from the best moveset of 3 different characters cause we learn how to fight 56 other characters. What is the problem with 3 more characters

 

The way this article is written polarizes the issue somewhat, saying that the perspectives are either all movesets available, or only 1111, and thats it. There are more solutions available!
For example, I think that all of the Mii mains should vote and decide on a single combination of special moves, and everyone can simply learn the matchup against that one set of specials. This way brawler can get helicopter kick, and be viable, and any other moves that are a central part of a mii's viability can be used. The majority of Mii mains will be able to use their preferred moveset, and it is super simple to just upload a single set for each mii to every tournament setup.

 

Extremely confused as to why we have to argue about this. Shouldn't it be obvious? Miis were never overpowered in the first place, why can't we just use their optimal size and moveset? And as the article said, changing the customs wouldn't really change the MUs by a whole lot. I wanna see more Miis in tourneys, that's all.

People against Mii's seem to think going from 1223 to 1213 completely changes everything they know about the character when it is just 1 move. All they really need to learn is 12 moves for each archetype and even then people shouldn't even be using some of them because they are bad so a lot can be cut. You don't need to learn 200 different combinations because at the end of the day only 4 moves can be used. If you have any questions about the set in anyway just turn to the mii user and ask him/her hey wtf does your UPB do. I am more than sure you will get an answer since there really is no secret here.

Muskrat Catcher check the boards they are doing that right now. Although that also leads to problems since some may not be happy and with the gunner people like 1111 but others like 3321 or something I forgot the specific. Basically it is still dividing the Mii mains although a compromise must be made if nobody wants to yield their stance entirely. It all comes down to who is actually doing things with Miis to the point where they can actually get results in tournaments.

 

The way this article is written polarizes the issue somewhat, saying that the perspectives are either all movesets available, or only 1111, and thats it. There are more solutions available!
For example, I think that all of the Mii mains should vote and decide on a single combination of special moves, and everyone can simply learn the matchup against that one set of specials. This way brawler can get helicopter kick, and be viable, and any other moves that are a central part of a mii's viability can be used. The majority of Mii mains will be able to use their preferred moveset, and it is super simple to just upload a single set for each mii to every tournament setup.

You've just discovered the ****tiest aspect of this whole debacle. I really expected more people to call out the Smashboards staff on this false dilemma BS, but this site's users never fail to find new and exciting ways to slowly kill my little remaining faith in humanity.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkkX3P0I5sY
Please watch this if you haven't yet.

 

Each Mii created is a unique character with a single moveset. Comparing Mii Brawler (1,1,1,1) with Mii Brawler (1,1,1,2) is like comparing Mario to Dr. Mario.

Should we cry about learning the Dr. Mario match-up because Mario exists? Should we restrict Falco from using his Special Attacks because Fox's are the 'default'? The same thing can be said for each Mii. They are individual characters.

Banning Mii Fighters outright makes more sense than any imposed restrictions. Limiting Height/Weight/Moves makes absolutely no sense as these are the qualities that define a Mii.

Customized Mii Fighters are nothing to be scared of. In a competitive environment there will likely evolve a 'streamlined' Mii height/weight/moveset combination with maybe a few variations for specific match-ups. You learn the match-up by playing against the Mii Fighters and the customization aspects really aren't that surprising or different.

Considering how few Mii Fighters would likely be in a bracket, it's even more ridiculous to think about restricting Mii customization. Arguments about time to create, upload, or modify a Mii are practically moot. And players using Mii Fighters outside competitive events are just going to use whatever Mii they enjoy anyway.

 

I think personally Mii's should be full cusotmise able because like what is said in the article, they are basically 'Your' character. They are a character that you can make into your own play style. Why on earth should that be banned? They are broken any time soon and if they are some things that are "OP", when can easily just say 'Okay, that's OP lets not use that'

The only really argument against this is Palutena cause she is in a similar situation. You could say other characters not using their custom move is unfair but really, most of the time the customs suck to the original.

 

StripedNinja
Haha, you got owned, man.
I'm just going to sum up your arguments here real quick..
>You: "Miis take too long to set up it's the biggest big issue ever and the reason why we can't have Mii customs"
>Mune: "No, they take 30 seconds, here's proof."
>You: "you think just because you've proven me wrong I'll admit it? haha, think again! I'll just use the 'it's not fair!' excuse and move on!"

Also:
>You:"We ban certain stages because of set reasons but we don't do that for Miis because I say so!"
lol wow.
So you're saying we can set reasons for stages but not for customs. Do you, like, understand the concept of logic? Like, at all? It's kind of hilarious.

EDIT: Actually you know what, you proved why you're wrong perfectly. We selectively set limits on stages based on the best options and viability, and we can do just the same for Miis! You just made a great point in support of custom Mii moves! Thank you, StripedNinja!



You've also made up some fantasy world stuff.
>You: "there are automatic systems that get customs now" (said twice)
What? Someone made a program and hacked their consoles to automatically obtain customs? Unless you meant 3DS to Wii U synching.

>You: "Mii customs are un(sic)accessable"
They're all unlocked from the start, are you going to pick an argument and stay with it or what? You just don't want to be wrong.. lol

Anyway, I agree with Tuen, the best thing would be to make an Ultimate or Golden set, including for Palutena.
It's not perfect, but at least you're not stuck with outright bad options.

 

StripedNinja
Haha, you got owned, man.
I'm just going to sum up your arguments here real quick..
>You: "Miis take too long to set up it's the biggest big issue ever and the reason why we can't have Mii customs"
>Mune: "No, they take 30 seconds, here's proof."
>You: "you think just because you've proven me wrong I'll admit it? haha, think again! I'll just use the 'it's not fair!' excuse and move on!"

Also:
>You:"We ban certain stages because of set reasons but we don't do that for Miis because I say so!"
lol wow.
So you're saying we can set reasons for stages but not for customs. Do you, like, understand the concept of logic? Like, at all? It's kind of hilarious.

EDIT: Actually you know what, you proved why you're wrong perfectly. We selectively set limits on stages based on the best options and viability, and we can do just the same for Miis! You just made a great point in support of custom Mii moves! Thank you, StripedNinja!



You've also made up some fantasy world stuff.
>You: "there are automatic systems that get customs now" (said twice)
What? Someone made a program and hacked their consoles to automatically obtain customs? Unless you meant 3DS to Wii U synching.

>You: "Mii customs are un(sic)accessable"
They're all unlocked from the start, are you going to pick an argument and stay with it or what? You just don't want to be wrong.. lol

Anyway, I agree with Tuen, the best thing would be to make an Ultimate or Golden set, including for Palutena.
It's not perfect, but at least you're not stuck with outright bad options.

What's your problem dude we're just having a discussion. There's no reason to be rude. I disagree with Munomario but I respect his opinion just like I ask you to respect mine, we all just want what's best for the community and being a **** is not ever helpful towards that goal.
My point with miis taking long was that they take EQUAL to the amount of time as any other custom set, so if you use that as a point that Miis should be legal you have to also be arguing for all customs and thus you are making special exception for Miis, which I don't agree is a competitive way of making a ruleset, which is my OPINION.
Yes, I agree, we looked at the positives and the negatives of a stage being legal and as made choices based on the popular and best argued opinion and the same should go for Miis, I agree on that, I'm just saying like the differences between stages are not the same as the differences between customs and you can't just put two extreamly different stages together and pretend it's the same. That doesn't MEAN we should ban Mii customs or shouldn't ban Mii customs, all it means is we should look at them as there own thing. You can agree with that, can't you?
The automatic systems don't require a hack, I didn't just make something up and I wish you would ask me instead of just making blind accusations. What it does require is a controller with turbo, which is where it repeatedly makes the same input over and over. A cheap one can be bought for like 10$.
And lastly I never said Miis were unaccessable, I said customs WERE ALL accesable since I don't think unlocking them was ever a big deal, which is why I don't believe Miis were the exception to the rule.
You grossly misquoated and misrepresented my arguments throughout your whole comment and I really wish you would just ask me to clarify my points in the future, this kind of discussion is not helpful. I agree, your way is not perfect. MY way is ALSO not perfect. That's why it's important to argue and share our honest opinions so we get the best option for the community. Don't shut others down for sharing their opinion just to push your own agenda.

 

TOs who are running smash don't want to go broke, sure, but I seriously doubt they're all just in this for the money. Smash 4 has a nice following, but it's not Street Fighter 4, or Counter-Strike, or League of Legends. Smash 4 is not a money multiplier, it's a labor of love.

 

Have they actually tried 3-stock? More than just once or twice? If no, your statement is invalid and I couldn't care less how offended you are by the truth. It's been shown that players overwhelmingly prefer 3-stock over 2-stock. If your TO hasn't given a serious effort to run 3-stock Smash 4 he's part of the problem.

Oh I missed your comment and yes, my local TO runs 3 stocl every monthly but only monthlies because it takes a lot more resources. Let me answer before you start throwing accusations, what is wrong with the community right now, why is this how people are talking

 

...the best thing would be to make an Ultimate or Golden set, including for Palutena.
It's not perfect, but at least you're not stuck with outright bad options.

I completely disagree with a "Ultimate/Golden" restriction. Making one type of Mii and forcing everyone to use it is still an oppressive restriction.

Calling it "the best thing" is quite the opposite of what I would call it. It's more honest to call it "A terrible idea".

 

Man... I feel like tearing some of these post apart, but at this point people are just beating a dead horse. I really don't see Mii's being customizable anytime soon, and I find it kind of... I don't know... Intrusive... That we have to keep hearing about the Mii's. Like... I literally heard zero mention of them until these articles began popping up.

 

Man... I feel like tearing some of these post apart, but at this point people are just beating a dead horse. I really don't see Mii's being customizable anytime soon, and I find it kind of... I don't know... Intrusive... That we have to keep hearing about the Mii's. Like... I literally heard zero mention of them until these articles began popping up.

Yeah, avoiding contraversy is a big part of it. Eventually we'll settle on something though. Smash 4 has definitely been the most controversial.

 

Man... I feel like tearing some of these post apart, but at this point people are just beating a dead horse. I really don't see Mii's being customizable anytime soon, and I find it kind of... I don't know... Intrusive... That we have to keep hearing about the Mii's. Like... I literally heard zero mention of them until these articles began popping up.

I would believe part of the reason for the silence of Miis is because of the fact that people get discouraged to main them because of all the shenanigans related to rules. Kinda hard to main a character when a large chunk of your playstyle can be invalidated at any time. Without people to main the Miis, there's less mains and spectators for miis that will talk about the miis later.

 

"We agree that Miis should be legal in some way, but not just 1111, as this restricts a player's options."

Yikes, who is making these decisions? This is not a matter of "restricting" options, it's reducing clutter and needless complexity. The more complexities in a game, the more a player is forced to memorized before they can engage with the game on meaningful level. They also impair the player's ability to make informed decisions.

If any customs are allowed, the match turns into a guessing game of "what customs is my opponent using?" rather than a contest of organic gameplay skill, as it should be. I'm not saying that the specials should necessarily be 1111, but they should be fixed. For all characters.

Allowing any specials doesn't improve competition in any meaningful way, it just creates a higher barrier for entry and forces players to memorize more details that don't actually affect how well they play the game.

 

Alondite yeah let's just use Sheik only on SV. /s

I would like you to explain what you mean with "improve competition in any meaningful way".

 

Alondite yeah let's just use Sheik only on SV. /s

I would like you to explain what you mean with "improve competition in any meaningful way".

If you just name the most extreme thing you can think of of course it's going to sound bad. " Hey, let's just legalize all customs and items and coin battle ". Does that sound good? Cause if not then maybe you'll agree some restrictions are good. And some of us would argue in a game filled to the teeth with character variety the customs of 3 characters don't add enough to justify the means but feel free to disagree, just do it honestly.

 

"We agree that Miis should be legal in some way, but not just 1111, as this restricts a player's options."

Yikes, who is making these decisions? This is not a matter of "restricting" options, it's reducing clutter and needless complexity. The more complexities in a game, the more a player is forced to memorized before they can engage with the game on meaningful level. They also impair the player's ability to make informed decisions.

If any customs are allowed, the match turns into a guessing game of "what customs is my opponent using?" rather than a contest of organic gameplay skill, as it should be. I'm not saying that the specials should necessarily be 1111, but they should be fixed. For all characters.

Allowing any specials doesn't improve competition in any meaningful way, it just creates a higher barrier for entry and forces players to memorize more details that don't actually affect how well they play the game.

I wouldn't call it needless as all. As for being forced to memorize more crap, well, this game has a HUGE roster, and it makes for a lot of memorization as it is. If we wanted to restrict how much players needed to memorize, we could simply ban half the roster and make the game much simpler. But simplicity isn't the point of smash 4. Sheer breadth and complexity is one of this game's greatest appeals. Unrestricted Miis add to the STRENGTH of smash 4.

If people want small rosters with little to memorize, there is Smash 64, or if they want a middle ground, there is Melee and PM. One of Smash 4's best qualities is its roster, and I welcome the variety that Miis can bring.

 

That thing about memorizing or learning about other characters custom moves, is one of the reasons top players (and TOs) will do their best to make sure custom moves are never legal to use.

The want the game to be as easy as possible for them and them alone, so they can keep their big positions as long as they can or throughout the game's life span.

They don't care about how much deeper and/or more strategy all characters custom moves would bring.

We should be allowed to use our characters custom moves, as it is no different then playing as one fighter and then switching to another.
Like playing as DeDeDe, in one round and then playing as Sheik, in another.

So I stand for custom moves for all characters to be legal/used.

 

I wouldn't call it needless as all. As for being forced to memorize more crap, well, this game has a HUGE roster, and it makes for a lot of memorization as it is. If we wanted to restrict how much players needed to memorize, we could simply ban half the roster and make the game much simpler. But simplicity isn't the point of smash 4. Sheer breadth and complexity is one of this game's greatest appeals. Unrestricted Miis add to the STRENGTH of smash 4.

If people want small rosters with little to memorize, there is Smash 64, or if they want a middle ground, there is Melee and PM. One of Smash 4's best qualities is its roster, and I welcome the variety that Miis can bring.

I think thats kind of the point though, is it feels unnecessary and needless to some of us BECAUSE of the sheer amount of variety already in this game. Some people think the game WOULD be better if we could ban certain characters but of course we can't because there's no way to draw that line, same with customs. Miis with customs wouldn't be ridiculously complex, but they also wouldn't add anything really significant to the meta in the face of all this character variety which is why a lot of us don't think it's worth the effort.

 

I think thats kind of the point though, is it feels unnecessary and needless to some of us BECAUSE of the sheer amount of variety already in this game. Some people think the game WOULD be better if we could ban certain characters but of course we can't because there's no way to draw that line, same with customs. Miis with customs wouldn't be ridiculously complex, but they also wouldn't add anything really significant to the meta in the face of all this character variety which is why a lot of us don't think it's worth the effort.

They would add signifigcantly to the Mii meta, which is the entire point of including Miis. Every playable Mii in every game to ever exist is customizable. No exceptions. The moment you create a Mii (and note that you have to create a Mii, you don't "create" a Fox or Mario), you are given options to customize them. That is what a Mii is.

Customization is the Mii's meta. Banning Mii movesets is completely defeating the purpose of including Miis in the first place. If people really don't like the idea of allowing configurable Miis, just ban the damn things altogether. Because there's no goddamn point if you can't make your own moveset. No goddamn point.

 

They would add signifigcantly to the Mii meta, which is the entire point of including Miis. Every playable Mii in every game to ever exist is customizable. No exceptions. The moment you create a Mii (and note that you have to create a Mii, you don't "create" a Fox or Mario), you are given options to customize them. That is what a Mii is.

Customization is the Mii's meta. Banning Mii movesets is completely defeating the purpose of including Miis in the first place. If people really don't like the idea of allowing configurable Miis, just ban the damn things altogether. Because there's no goddamn point if you can't make your own moveset. No goddamn point.

Well the point would be 3 more characters. It would add just as much to anyone other characters meta as it does to Miis but on the large scale of the game it does nearly nothing for it. The difference between 3 customisable characters and 3 non customizable characters and no 3 extra characters at all is pretty negligible, I agree, and I wouldnt be against banning them all together but that isn't one of the options the community seems to be presenting me with.

 

Well the point would be 3 more characters. It would add just as much to anyone other characters meta as it does to Miis but on the large scale of the game it does nearly nothing for it. The difference between 3 customisable characters and 3 non customizable characters and no 3 extra characters at all is pretty negligible, I agree, and I wouldnt be against banning them all together but that isn't one of the options the community seems to be presenting me with.

On the large scale of the game, it wouldn't harm it, but to those who like Miis it adds a lot. The bennies outweigh the costs.

 

On the large scale of the game, it wouldn't harm it, but to those who like Miis it adds a lot. The bennies outweigh the costs.

It adds complications and contraversy, which does harm in my opinion. I'm not saying it would destroy the game or anything but again I don't think it would add anything significant.
I respect your opinion though, I think the validity really just comes up to how many people want it. We'll see what happens.

 

"We agree that Miis should be legal in some way, but not just 1111, as this restricts a player's options."

Yikes, who is making these decisions? This is not a matter of "restricting" options, it's reducing clutter and needless complexity. The more complexities in a game, the more a player is forced to memorized before they can engage with the game on meaningful level. They also impair the player's ability to make informed decisions.

If any customs are allowed, the match turns into a guessing game of "what customs is my opponent using?" rather than a contest of organic gameplay skill, as it should be. I'm not saying that the specials should necessarily be 1111, but they should be fixed. For all characters.

Allowing any specials doesn't improve competition in any meaningful way, it just creates a higher barrier for entry and forces players to memorize more details that don't actually affect how well they play the game.

Not being rude but what I bolded makes you look bad. If you want to play casual then do it, nobody is stopping you from making your rules with your friends. If however you want to be in tournaments you can't think like that because it comes off really scrubby. Don't put something like that as reasoning.