Editoral: A Smashing Debate, Part 1

Two or three stocks? Customs on or off? Miis legal or not? Is Halberd still viable? These hot topics have haunted the Smash community ever since the game released. Will there ever be an agreement? Who knows; what is for sure is that here at Smashboards we want to give our opinions.

Here is where the Smashing Debate comes to life. Through the next weeks we're going to publish parts of this series discussing the issues that attack our stability as a community. And, as part of the #MiiWiik, we're starting right off with the topic that has generated the most debate lately: Mii Legality.

WARNING
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If you suffer from attacks of rage, saltiness, or if you dislike hearing other people's opinions, this series of articles may provoke serious anger and loss of friends. You have been warned.

Let's get started.

The Issue
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The key to understanding this problem is knowing how matchups (MUs) work. Players compare one character's strengths to another's and pinpoint who struggles against who. Miis require a major level of understanding, as they can be created to be anything from paper-thin and 8 feet tall to a ball-round, 3-foot character. These factors obviously make the abilities of the character fluctuate and gives Miis a plethora of variability in combo and damage potential, defense and other stats. Now, these factors, combined with the already wide potential combinations with customs, creates a problem.

The Perspectives​

"All Miis Matter": Miis should be completely legal - all 27 combinations - but players should still be limited to using the standard, pre-installed Miis of medium sizes. The alternative Special Moves can't be considered "customs" or equals to other characters' customs because they are already unlocked and present totally different moves, instead of just some changes in damage, speed, and one or two effects.

Supports: All combinations allowed, medium sizes.

1111: Miis should be legal, but limited to their 1111 moveset. The ability to use all Miis creates some over-powered combinations and there's no way to control it as they are basically 81 different characters. This choice saves tournament organizers (TOs) a lot of work, and the 1111 setup is fairly balanced. With 81 different movesets, the MUs multiply and players have a lot of difficulty knowing how all of them work.

Supports: 1111 setups for all styles, medium sizes.

Our Opinions​

We brought in two of our writers to give their points of view on the subject.

Nova​

This is just an opinion, but I think there's ZERO reason to limit the movesets of 3 whole characters. Their move variations do not change how their matchups are played, just the options they have in certain situations. Almost all the arguments in favor of the ban translate to "I don't know the matchup, and I don't want to know" (Disclaimer: Almost all of them.)

I understand that having the option to counterpick moves is a huge advantages, but that can be solved by banning just that. One option that some tournaments commonly use is to let the Mii player choose any combination of moves, but limit them to one combination per set. That's one. There's also another more extreme option: decide on an "ultimate" moveset, and after it's decided, there's no going back.

While this may seem horrible, it's a lot better than just sticking to 1111, which is the main reason Mii mains are non-existent. Besides, even if the unthinkable happens and we allow Miis to use all their moves, counterpick or not, they'll still be standard size so you don't need to learn combo and kill percentages for all the variations, just one.

Finally, let me ask you something: how many Mii mains do you honestly expect to face in your bracket? If you don't drown in pools, you'll be lucky to face more than two. And even if you do, you can pretty much counterpick Sheik and win (provided that you can, in fact, press buttons). So, why do we keep banning three potential characters that can be viable just for some problems that can be solved easily? We lose virtually nothing and gain a lot just by letting them free of their chains. I'll let you decide which is better.

OniKirby​

The magic number, 1111. Many think that this number solves everything. For some, it does.

To me, there's no thing as an over-powered character; even Melee Fox and Brawl Meta Knight. You can, after all, defeat a Melee Fox with Kirby; you can, after all, defeat a Brawl Meta Knight with Ganondorf. Let's just say that "it's not the bow, it's the archer". It does not matter if you have a great character in your hands, if you have no hands.

Miis are just more versatile than other characters, and alternative moves do not change the MUs entirely; special moves are just 33% of a character's moveset. Characters in Smash are made to represent their home game. Miis are a way to represent yourself by changing aspects of your creation, moving and switching. In the end, a Mii should reflect you, and not your limitations.

Cutting aside 26 combinations from a character is reducing to a minimum what the character is. It's like playing Fox only using lasers, or playing Ryu with only the light version of his attacks. The alternative moves are made to change your style, and reflect how you like to play. Let's think for a second. By banning customs, normal characters lose their ability to select non-1111 variations. Mii Fighters' movesets cannot be considered "customs" in the same sense: by banning them they are losing what makes them interesting characters.

I'm aware of organizing issues, and they are real. Still, the game can keep 99 Mii Fighters, enough so that all 81 combinations are available on the console using the 3DS-to-Console method.

Conclusion​

We agree that Miis should be legal in some way, but not just 1111, as this restricts a player's options. In the end, we want to know your opinion! Let us know what you think about this topic, and stay tuned for the next part of the Smashing Debate.

 

Every argument against full-moveset Mii fighters is so demonstrably wrong and plain bad, the fact this is even a debate over a year on is a blight upon this communities ruleset makers.

 

I think the argument regarding locking move sets to 1111, or an agreed set, is also based on the precedent set for other characters.

We have generally moved toward a rule set that has banned custom moves, and that logically should reflect consistently on the treatment of Miis.

Some may argue that the game sets precedents by unlocking Miis moves and making them accessible when the custom move setting is off. But to that I ask...

When have we ever used the game precedent to make rules?

We don't play time matches, we don't use items, we ban 80+ percent of the available stages, we turn on team attack, we frequently turn off pause, we add a timer, and depending on the game we often don't use the suggested stock count. Oh, and we add suicide rules and tie break rules instead of playing sudden death.

So game precedent is not a valid argument for logical community driven consistency.

What precedent have WE set forth? We have set rules that restrict characters to one move set each. By the way, regardless of the decision on Miis, Palutena, and customs... DLC characters MUST abide by the one move set precedent. They have no choice.

So I believe the most internally consistent way to move forward is to constrain the Mii fighters to one move set. Whether that be per player, per Mii community decision, or through 1111 sets... That's up to the community.

-----

Anyways. People keep trying to drive the argument using logic, so I thought I'd present what I thought was logical, using a community consistency approach.

I wouldn't mind them having whatever they want. It's probably less than 1% of the players, it takes the same amount of time as custom controls, and no Mii player is likely to win a super national like this (no offense).

So go with the above. Or let them do whatever.

In reality? The community will continue to fight about it. I sat through Brawl Meta Knight discussions. In and out of the BBR. The trenched stances in this community are frequently insurmountable. Logic arguments, appeal to competitive diversity, appeal to emotion... Not to be a downer, but it's not going to matter. Everyone will just keep fighting indefinitely. Individual TOs will make their decisions, but the fighting will never stop.

 

Thanks for warning

 

Dr. Tuen I completely disagree with your post, since it was on a basis I and many others (including the two writers) disagree with. There is no connection between custom moves and Mii movesets. Period.

 

I think we should, as a community, vote for the BEST set of each character and use it in the tournaments that follow. One character should only have one moveset, but at least we should allow the miis to be at their best.

 

Why did Sakurai executed customs moves and Miis so poorly? We wouldn't have this debates. Repeated customs? Who was the idiot who green lighted this idea?! Must be the same idiot who thought not giving customs to the DLC characters was a good idea. "Online bullying" So what? It's the same thing as the cutscene debate, there a lot of idiots who will use Hitler or phallic Miis, it can't be stopped unless those people are deleted from existence. No Miis in FG is stupid.

 

Dr. Tuen I completely disagree with your post, since it was on a basis I and many others (including the two writers) disagree with. There is no connection between custom moves and Mii movesets. Period.

Says who? The game? We've never used that to set our rules. What's the basis for this lack of connection?

Also, do you disagree with the part where I personally am ok with completely custom miis? What I present as a logical pathway to discuss and what I believe are two different things in this case.

 

I posted this on a previous discussion on this topic. I'm gonna post it again.

I think the mind set that Mii's are like every other character in the sense that ''if they could use all their moves, other characters should be able to also'' is the wrong mind set when viewing Mii's.
First of all, the name tells you a lot about the point of the characters. They're called ''Mii's'', meaning that they are personal to YOU and YOUR choice as to how they play and what move set they have based on how YOU feel you want your own personal customisable character to work. That's why Smash has given you 3 presets in the form of the 3 basic types of characters you'd find in a fighting game: Brawlers, Swordsmen, or Gunners... Rush down, midrange, or long range respectively. And within those presets, you are given the opportunity to PERSONALISE your own unique CUSTOM fighter. It's like Sakurai saying ''I've given you 50-odd characters in the game, but incase none of them suit your play style, you have the opportunity to make your own based off of YOU: Mii... Me.''

Because of this, it's pretty clear that you can't just say ''Mii's get to use 2122 but DK must stick to 1111! that's not fair!!'' Because Mii's is not A character, they ARE Characters designed to be like snowflakes... no 2 mii are guaranteed to be the same. And although there are preferable sets or even ''optimal'' sets, the fact that they are CUSTOM FIGHTERS remain the same. Mario will always be Mario cause he's Mario... Mii's could be anyone because they're you and me.

The real question is, should CUSTOM FIGHTERS be legal at tournaments.

 

#friithemii

 

There are in the game and they aren't even broken, overpowered or even insane in the slightest.

Why is there so much of an issue over the Mii Fighters.

Brawler is powerful, great move arsenal but not a lot of recovery options

Swordsman has a lot of range and damage but has some issues and drawbacks like all sword fighters not named ,&.

And gunner has great options to force opponents to approach but has awful kill options and setups but the players make them work.

Why should there be any issue over them? It ain't like they are overpowered

 

I'd like to see moveset customization for the Miis. It doesn't take much time to set up, all the moves are available from the start. As opposed to the grind-fest that is getting all the Special moves for all the other characters. I'd vote for default weight all moves legal, unless it becomes a huge issue like other customs were. I'd like to see more TOs try Mii customs. From what I can see there is no harm in it.

 

I think that it's a fallacy to argue that allowing the miis to use their moves is creating a huge number of additional matchups to learn. Just because a character decides to change out a single special move, that isn't an entirely new matchup to learn! Its just one more move to learn how to play against. It's no different than how Ryu has a lot of additional moves. Does the fact that he can use a command input shoryuken mean that you are having to learn an entirely different matchup? Of course not! Mii's simply have more special moves than other characters, and they are limited to using a subset of those special moves.

 

I'm beating a dead horse here but the notion of "not allowing miis to use their customs is taking their main gimmick away" hurts me because you can literally say the same thing about Palutena.

See, despite what some people may argue, having fully unique custom moves IS Palutena's 'thing'. I mean, there's the way they were presented in her trailer, the fact that her trophy mentions that "She's very adaptable—you can customize her into a long- or close-range fighter!", the fact that all of her customs come unlocked from the start, and the fact that her customs are the only ones they even bother to mention in the in-game loading tips (outside of the Mii Fighters). Like how Cloud represents how limit breaks work in Final Fantasy 7 or how Little Mac represents the KO mechanics in the Punch-Out!! series with his power meter, Palutena's design was basically supposed to be based on how equipping and managing Pit's powers, which all of her specials are based on, worked in Kid Icarus Uprising (https://youtu.be/jRVyxhZEIFo?t=440).

And yet, all of this is apparently completely nullified because the menu doesn't bless her in the same way it does with Miis. I just find it a bit frustrating that Mii mains are distraught over being forced into their 1111 moveset, saying it takes away the point of their character, and yet Palutena is kinda in the same dilemma, only that no one bothers to argue for her just because for some reason Sakurai decided to relegate her defining feature to the Customs ON button.

Ugh.

 

I don't see how the "rule precedents" or whatever are relevant here. Firstly, we could always, y'know, change the rules. They're in no way set in stone. I don't see why we always have to follow our earlier choices, which were made in quite different circumstances (some custom's were OP, they had to be unlocked, etc etc), when doing things different here would go much more smoothly and result in a net benefit.

But if you do think that Miis have to abide by the "precedent," for whatever reason, then consider this. The precedent that we've set is "customs off," right? That's the rule we use in tournaments, by turning off the switch in the upper-right. Guess who can still use alternate specials with customs off? Miis.

As for other arguments. No, they're not overpowered -- at least, from what I can tell in default sizes. No, they won't take up too much time, no more than custom controls do anyway -- not to mention the low number of Mii players that will probably show up. (If it really became a problem, you could make them choose between either custom controls or custom Mii specials.) And no, it's not "unfair" because you have to learn the matchup all over again or whatever. You could say that about any character -- "Ban Rosalina, I don't want to have to learn the matchup!" And even then it's only four moves out of the entire moveset, it's not a big deal. The playstyle is mostly the same. (There'd probably be a few movesets that became more popular than others anyways, so you could always focus on those.)

It baffles me that this has been going on for so long.

 

Every argument against full-moveset Mii fighters is so demonstrably wrong and plain bad, the fact this is even a debate over a year on is a blight upon this communities ruleset makers.

I second this. I also feel like, as a community, we have to not be so uptight about tournament rules. Just because we are competitive doesn't mean we should never try new things. We constantly limit ourselves to very few options when there's so much more to be explored.

Why can't we try keeping Halberd legal? Why can't we legalize Miis and all their various setups (beyond just 1111)? Dare I say it, why not even try legalizing Hyrule Castle 64 for a tournament here or there?

I really think we need to stop being so afraid of new things and give them a try. How could it hurt?

 

While I did agree with a majority of Nova's argument, this bit right here definitely grabbed my attention:

"Their move variations do not change how their matchups are played, just the options they have in certain situations."

Changing a move to which a character has access to will undeniably alter specific MUs in some way, depending on which move they lost/gained. Take, for example, a Mii Brawler player opting to employ Helicopter Kick over Piston Punch. Given that the former is a much better OOS option and also functions as a potent edge-guarding tool, some MUs become either better or worse depending on how suspectable a character is to the traits of the chosen move. Ness, a character that would otherwise be able to safely attack Brawler's shield, must now play safer at all percents in fear of Up B OOS, thereby worsening the MU for Ness. Likewise, a Ness main would be more inclined to fear Shot Put over Ultimate Uppercut because of its properties as a falling, angled, disjointed projectile that can very effectively gimp him. These two moves in tandem force Ness to play safer and encourage Brawler to put heavier emphasis on getting him offstage and shielding more often.


This, of course, isn't limited to strictly Ness, he's just my go to example, as I know him far better than I do any other character.

 

I don't see how the "rule precedents" or whatever are relevant here. Firstly, we could always, y'know, change the rules. They're in no way set in stone. I don't see why we always have to follow our earlier choices, which were made in quite different circumstances (some custom's were OP, they had to be unlocked, etc etc), when doing things different here would go much more smoothly and result in a net benefit.

But if you do think that Miis have to abide by the "precedent," for whatever reason, then consider this. The precedent that we've set is "customs off," right? That's the rule we use in tournaments, by turning off the switch in the upper-right. Guess who can still use alternate specials with customs off? Miis.

The use of community precedents is argued to show consistent treatment of all the characters in the game. Competitive same-ness is a general rule that drives out sense of fairness in treatment. That's why we ban anything that generates random elements, it's not an advantage/disadvantage that is distributed the same across all players/characters.

Right now, as a community, we have generally stayed away from the use of custom moves. Yielding that to the mii fighters would be treating them differently. The sense of competitive same-ness would be removed.

I don't see a logical reason to treat them differently. The game yielding them the option is a weak argument because we fequently ignore game precedent in favor of equal competitive treatment.

The two most internally consistent options I see are to allow all custom moves (which will never be competitively consistent for the DLC fighters, by the way), or to restrict all to a single move set.

In the latter case, miis have three choices. We could yield a move set per player (I could use 1234, you can use 2222, but we must stay these combinations through a given set), we can fix that combination of moves for all players (brawler, swordsman, gunner would each have an agreed move set), or we can fix them at 1111.

I think it's important to treat all characters the same. With DLC characters being unable to use custom moves, I think it's most fair to fix mii fighters at one move set.

 

The alternative Special Moves can't be considered "customs" or equals to other characters' customs because they are already unlocked and present totally different moves, instead of just some changes in damage, speed, and one or two effects.​

​

For the record, under this thought Palutena or mega man would be allowed customs.
I am pro All miis matter , or atl least ultimate mii per tourney.

 

I disagree with all customs being legal or even just Mii customs. Even without custom moves, there is too much to learn right now, too many MU's, we have top players losing because one player has the MU experience over the other, or people just going into tournament facing a character like Bayonetta with no MU experience vs a player who has the character experience. Maybe customs could become a thing of the future, personally I don't care and most of them are too jank to even consider. It just seems completely pointless to even consider it now, when there are enough problems as it is when it comes to learning Smash Wii U.

How many Mii Brawler mains have I faced that knew how to play the character at tournament level? None, and I don't want to travel accross the ocean and go to a tournament where not only do I have to worry about an alien character like that, but I have to worry about infinite different moveset combinations at the same time. Also, Villagers balloons, enough said.

 

The use of community precedents is argued to show consistent treatment of all the characters in the game. Competitive same-ness is a general rule that drives out sense of fairness in treatment. That's why we ban anything that generates random elements, it's not an advantage/disadvantage that is distributed the same across all players/characters.

Right now, as a community, we have generally stayed away from the use of custom moves. Yielding that to the mii fighters would be treating them differently. The sense of competitive same-ness would be removed.

I don't see a logical reason to treat them differently. The game yielding them the option is a weak argument because we fequently ignore game precedent in favor of equal competitive treatment.

The two most internally consistent options I see are to allow all custom moves (which will never be competitively consistent for the DLC fighters, by the way), or to restrict all to a single move set.

In the latter case, miis have three choices. We could yield a move set per player (I could use 1234, you can use 2222, but we must stay these combinations through a given set), we can fix that combination of moves for all players (brawler, swordsman, gunner would each have an agreed move set), or we can fix them at 1111.

I think it's important to treat all characters the same. With DLC characters being unable to use custom moves, I think it's most fair to fix mii fighters at one move set.

Rather than saying "we banned customs for other characters, so we should ban them for Miis", we should look at why we banned them for other characters, and see if that applies here. From what I can gather, customs (other than those of Miis) were banned because:

• Some were considered overpowered, e.g. trip sapling and DK's wind up b.
• They were impractical for tournaments, because they had to be unlocked or transferred from a 3DS.
• Another possible reason is that it added too many variations to the game -- it would be a pain to have to learn 100+ extra moves.

This doesn't apply to Miis and their alternate specials. They're not overpowered (at least in default size), they're not impractical for tournaments (they take the same time to set up as custom controls), and remembering two dozen distinct moves with simple, straightforward functionality is much less of a pain than remembering over 100 of them with similar appearances but different, often more complex functions (in comparison to Miis anyway).

I don't see why we need to be "consistent;" if something gets in the way of an enjoyable, practical, fair tournament experience, like custom moves did, then it's reasonable to ban it. That's the difference between traditional customs and those of Miis. It's also why Meta Knight was banned in Brawl -- sure, that was "unfair treatment" to him, but it was a necessary ban because he broke the game. Customs, while in different ways, did also "break the game," so they were banned. Miis don't break the game, as illustrated above. Thus, there is no reason to ban Miis and their alternate special moves. It's not like it'd break the balance of the game or anything -- they're not overpowered.

(I'd also be down for allowing Palutena's customs, using the same points as above.)

 

For the record, under this thought Palutena or mega man would be allowed customs.
I am pro All miis matter , or atl least ultimate mii per tourney.

Mega Man is kinda odd in this regard.

The thing is, his customs technically ARE still variations of his defaults. As in, the animations for stuff like Ice Slasher is exactly the same as Crash Bomber. They actually aren't fully unique like Palutena or the Mii Fighters, it's just that more effort was put into their presentation than the rest of the cast.

 

Rather than saying "we banned customs for other characters, so we should ban them for Miis", we should look at why we banned them for other characters, and see if that applies here. From what I can gather, customs (other than those of Miis) were banned because:

• Some were considered overpowered, e.g. trip sapling and DK's wind up b.
• They were impractical for tournaments, because they had to be unlocked or transferred from a 3DS.
• Another possible reason is that it added too many variations to the game -- it would be a pain to have to learn 100+ extra moves.

This doesn't apply to Miis and their alternate specials. They're not overpowered (at least in default size), they're not impractical for tournaments (they take the same time to set up as custom controls), and remembering two dozen distinct moves with simple, straightforward functionality is much less of a pain than remembering over 100 of them with similar appearances but different, often more complex functions (in comparison to Miis anyway).

I don't see why we need to be "consistent;" if something gets in the way of an enjoyable, practical, fair tournament experience, like custom moves did, then it's reasonable to ban it. That's the difference between traditional customs and those of Miis. It's also why Meta Knight was banned in Brawl -- sure, that was "unfair treatment" to him, but it was a necessary ban because he broke the game. Customs, while in different ways, did also "break the game," so they were banned. Miis don't break the game, as illustrated above. Thus, there is no reason to ban Miis and their alternate special moves. It's not like it'd break the balance of the game or anything -- they're not overpowered.

(I'd also be down for allowing Palutena's customs, using the same points as above.)

If you do not see equal competitive treatment as an important ideal to uphold, then we're likely at an argumentative impasse.

I think we cannot sacrifice equal treatment for almost any reason. Brawl Meta Knight broke the community in half because of the ban decision (a decision that did indeed treat him unfairly, from an equal competition point of view). While we may not suffer the same order of damage in this decision, I think that sense of lost competitive equality will make this difficult. If you legalize mii customs, Palutena players will feel shorted. Give her those moves and others that benefit from customs will chime in.

You mention individual broken custom examples which were used to ban them all. Why didn't we ban them individually instead? Competitive equality, that's why.

So to keep these characters equal, I think one set per character is necessary.

 

There are actually Miis fully allowed in Wisconsin right now. We allow the player to create a Mii at the standard Guest size, with any set of custom moves, and if they want to a costume can be included.

There are literally two Mii players in our state. Me, who of course only uses him for fun if my opponent is bad, and a player named Z2G who is ranked 3rd on our PR using Lucario. I mean, the Miis don't change the Metagame, but they're an honest option if you want to mess around.

 

I'm beating a dead horse here but the notion of "not allowing miis to use their customs is taking their main gimmick away" hurts me because you can literally say the same thing about Palutena.

See, despite what some people may argue, having fully unique custom moves IS Palutena's 'thing'. I mean, there's the way they were presented in her trailer, the fact that her trophy mentions that "She's very adaptable—you can customize her into a long- or close-range fighter!", the fact that all of her customs come unlocked from the start, and the fact that her customs are the only ones they even bother to mention in the in-game loading tips (outside of the Mii Fighters). Like how Cloud represents how limit breaks work in FF7 or how Little Mac represents the KO mechanics in PO!! with his meter, she was basically supposed to be based on how equipping and managing Pit's powers, which all of her specials are based on, worked in Kid Icarus Uprising (https://youtu.be/jRVyxhZEIFo?t=440).

And yet, all of this is apparently completely nullified because the menu doesn't bless her in the same way it does with Miis. I just find it a bit frustrating that Mii mains are distraught over being forced into their 1111 moveset, saying it takes away the point of their character, and yet Palutena is kinda in the same dilemma, only that no one bothers to argue for her just because for some reason Sakurai decided to relegate her defining feature to the Customs ON button.

Ugh.

Why does everything have to be fair?

In an optimal world scrub arguments wouldnt exist and customs would be legal for all characters, but its obvious the community isnt ready for that yet, thus allowing Palutena to use her customs isn't happening and isn't going to happen. Because her moves ARE technically customs.

Mii's might be allowed their movesets however. The community is ready for that. Yeah its all arbitrary and based on menu design and thats ********. But mii's being allowed their moves (and hopefully sizes) would be a good thing. Even if Palutena doesn't. It's not fair but its better than nothing. In the same way that its better to give food to one starving person out of two, than giving food to none of them for the sake of fairness.

But meh what am I even arguing against, I agree with your post with the addition that all customs should be allowed. The meta is ready. People are on another level than during APEX, jank ain't gon save nobody no more.

Luigimitsu That's the scrubbiest post thus far this year. Congratulations. Literally everything in it boils down to scrub.

 

Rather than saying "we banned customs for other characters, so we should ban them for Miis", we should look at why we banned them for other characters, and see if that applies here. From what I can gather, customs (other than those of Miis) were banned because:

• Some were considered overpowered, e.g. trip sapling and DK's wind up b.
• They were impractical for tournaments, because they had to be unlocked or transferred from a 3DS.
• Another possible reason is that it added too many variations to the game -- it would be a pain to have to learn 100+ extra moves.

This doesn't apply to Miis and their alternate specials. They're not overpowered (at least in default size), they're not impractical for tournaments (they take the same time to set up as custom controls), and remembering two dozen distinct moves with simple, straightforward functionality is much less of a pain than remembering over 100 of them with similar appearances but different, often more complex functions (in comparison to Miis anyway).

I don't see why we need to be "consistent;" if something gets in the way of an enjoyable, practical, fair tournament experience, like custom moves did, then it's reasonable to ban it. That's the difference between traditional customs and those of Miis. It's also why Meta Knight was banned in Brawl -- sure, that was "unfair treatment" to him, but it was a necessary ban because he broke the game. Customs, while in different ways, did also "break the game," so they were banned. Miis don't break the game, as illustrated above. Thus, there is no reason to ban Miis and their alternate special moves. It's not like it'd break the balance of the game or anything -- they're not overpowered.

(I'd also be down for allowing Palutena's customs, using the same points as above.)

Just because you name 3 arguments doesn't give you the right to claim "there is no reason period", people need to stop arguing like this. The ruleset has always been based on opinion and preference, people just not wanting them is a real reaaon.
As far as impracticality in Tournament, unlocking them was never the big issue. Its fairly easy to unlock all customs in something like a week. The big issue was people taking time to customize their characters when their setup wasn't readily available.
As far as being overpowered, and " breaking the game" plenty of custom movesets aren't overpowered. In fact if we were selective about legalization we could probably better the overall balance, but we don't because that would create way to much controversy over the specifics that would ultimately hurt the community.
As for your last argument, about there not being that many variations so it isn't that big a deal, the same could be made for any other characters movesets. First of all 4 unique special moves for 3 characters gives a LOT of combinations to know about for not that much reward. It isn't just about what each special is, it's also how they are used in combination.
All the same arguments could be made for like Ganon. If you ONLY legalize Ganons moveset then it helps game balance and it wouldn't be a big deal because it's just him so it wouldn't take too much time or learning and selecting in tournament. But of course we can't do that because it isn't fair to do it with just Ganon. It's inconsistent.
I don't agree that miis are different because they're already unlocked because again that was never a big issue, or because their customs are "totally unique" because that is purely aesthetic and means nothing competitively plenty customs even if they look very similar function totally differently in use and some (like Megamans) even look different as well. That'd be like banning final destination because it looks really crazy and chaotic, but legalizing colleessum because visually it's simple, visuals don't mean anything. (Side note I know you weren't arguing that last point that was just for people who were)

 

definitely don't agree with onikirby's stance that there is no such thing as an op'd character. Just bc a character is "technically" beatable, doesn't mean they don't deserve a ban. Akuma from SF2 Turbo is "technically" beatable, that doesn't change the fact that nearly the entire SF2Turbo community agrees that he was op'd enough to be bannable. When a character becomes literally dominant enough, that the entire metagame starts to revolve on beating that one character(which is exactly what happened in brawl) and the character starts flooding the results to the point where if you don't either main the character, or keep a pocket one as a backup, you stand very little chance of placing well in the tournament, there is a problem. And its a single character who proves to be this dominant, while the rest of the cast is fine, banning the single character is usually a better option.

People always tried to make the excuse that "oh well if you ban him the next character down the list will just become as dominant" this is false, because the next character down, usually has disadvantages that are exploitable far more easily by other characters, Ice climbers in brawl struggled in moving stages, and against someone like snake, making them counterpickable. Diddy struggled on moving stages as well because he lost all his banana shenanigans. Snake had a hard time dealing with anyone who could out-camp him(hell Link AND samus, two low tiers, were an evenish matchup for snake because they could camp him just as hard as he could them.)

Essentially all the characters below metaknight in brawl, could be counterpicked in some form, so NONE of them would ever be able to be as dominant as metaknight was. So this idea that "the next character down the list would just become the next dominant character" is false.


With ALL of that said, mii's aren't even that good regardless of what customs they have, or their body sizes(though lets just keep that as one universal size to avoid further confusion and complexity for em in tiers) so to ban them, or force them to have just one strict set of customs is ridiculous.

 

Like I say, never underestimate your opponent. This includes the Miis and this could be something that changes the meta game.

 

If you do not see equal competitive treatment as an important ideal to uphold, then we're likely at an argumentative impasse.

I don't see how some abstract concept of "equality" is more important than banning certain things and allowing others to make a better tournament experience. When things aren't equal (like how customs are more detrimental to the tournament experience and game balance than Mii's alternate specials are), we treat them differently (banning customs and allowing Mii moves).

I think we cannot sacrifice equal treatment for almost any reason. Brawl Meta Knight broke the community in half because of the ban decision (a decision that did indeed treat him unfairly, from an equal competition point of view). While we may not suffer the same order of damage in this decision, I think that sense of lost competitive equality will make this difficult. If you legalize mii customs, Palutena players will feel shorted. Give her those moves and others that benefit from customs will chime in.

Again, treating characters "fairly" or whatever isn't as important, to me at least, as having a practical, balanced game. Meta Knight broke the game balance, so he was banned. Customs break the game in other ways, like being impractical for tournaments (and in some cases being detrimental to the game balance), so they're banned.

(Also, again, I wouldn't mind Palutena getting customs, but it is still rather impractical for reasons given above, sans unlockable status.)

You mention individual broken custom examples which were used to ban them all. Why didn't we ban them individually instead? Competitive equality, that's why.

...Or because all customs are a pain to set up for tournaments, since they're unlockable (and take a long time to do so), the game can only hold 10 setups for each character (causing rifts in the community, since not every setup can exist on the console), et cetera.

So to keep these characters equal, I think one set per character is necessary.

How will keeping everything "equal" make the game / the tournament better? We already treat characters "unfairly" by banning stages which are beneficial to them, like banning shark-able stages because of Meta Knight back in Brawl. But it makes for a better game, with better balance.

If anything, allowing their alternate specials is treating the Miis "fairly" -- they're pretty bad characters otherwise, and it is "their thing."

Just because you name 3 arguments doesn't give you the right to claim "there is no reason period", people need to stop arguing like this. The ruleset has always been based on opinion and preference, people just not wanting them is a real reaaon.

People "not wanting them" isn't a competent argument by any stretch of the imagination. That's subjective (opinion-based), not objective (fact-based). Rulesets should be based on the latter. If people don't like them / want them in, then that's fine, but they're only going to get banned if there are actual reasons to do so, e.g. overpoweredness.

As far as impracticality in Tournament, unlocking them was never the big issue. Its fairly easy to unlock all customs in something like a week. The big issue was people taking time to customize their characters when their setup wasn't readily available.

Unlocking customs in a week, though, is either multiplied countless times by the number of Wii Us at the tournament, or means that you have to take the time to sync it all up through a 3DS. The former takes a lot of time and effort, and the latter takes a bit less time (but still a lot) and means that you can't easily customize your own setup, without doing it on 3DS and copying it over. That means that you have things like the custom moveset project, which will only divide the community since someone's favorite combination isn't going to be on there.

Miis on the other hand can be set up in the same amount of time as custom controls can, don't have to be unlocked, and can hold far, far more move combinations.

As far as being overpowered, and " breaking the game" plenty of custom movesets aren't overpowered. In fact if we were selective about legalization we could probably better the overall balance, but we don't because that would create way to much controversy over the specifics that would ultimately hurt the community.

Yeah, that and customs are kind of messy to deal with anyway, as described above.

As for your last argument, about there not being that many variations so it isn't that big a deal, the same could be made for any other characters movesets. First of all 4 unique special moves for 3 characters gives a LOT of combinations to know about for not that much reward. It isn't just about what each special is, it's also how they are used in combination.

Something that makes this less of a problem, however, is how there will likely be a few setups that will be more popular. For example, most Mii Brawlers are going to use Helicopter Kick, and there's probably going to be a few "best setups" that everyone uses, so you just have to keep those ones in mind.

Also, again, it's just the specials -- the rest of the moveset remains the same.

All the same arguments could be made for like Ganon. If you ONLY legalize Ganons moveset then it helps game balance and it wouldn't be a big deal because it's just him so it wouldn't take too much time or learning and selecting in tournament. But of course we can't do that because it isn't fair to do it with just Ganon. It's inconsistent.

Ganon, though, is another character whose customs have to be unlocked, are impractical in the other ways I described (only 10 slots, etc), and aren't his main feature.

I don't agree that miis are different because they're already unlocked because again that was never a big issue

It was, at the very least compared to Miis -- I talked about this earlier. (Won't repeat it, that'd be redundant at this point. : p)

(Snipped out the part that wasn't directed towards me.)

 

Following the Warning, I had to stop reading after this.

"Their move variations do not change how their matchups are played, just the options they have in certain situations."

It sounds like the person believes there's a difference too...

 

The only reason that there's been a debate over Mii fighters is because SmashCapps posted that terrible, moronic article a week ago and tried to push a false dichotomy on everybody. Until that point, the only "debate" about the Smash 4 ruleset had been whether to use 2-stock or 3-stock. Players like 3-stock because it gives more time for people to adapt to their opponents, and TOs like 2-stock because they don't want to have their precious viewers leave and give them less money. That's it. It's TOs being more concerned about how much money they're making than running a good tournament for their players.

I would say that we need an article or two about that, except there is no "other side" to 2-stock vs. 3-stock. It's 3-stock and people who don't play tournament. I'm sure SmashCapps will find a way to screw an article like that up regardless.

 

I think we should, as a community, vote for the BEST set of each character and use it in the tournaments that follow. One character should only have one moveset, but at least we should allow the miis to be at their best.

Who's to say what a character's BEST moves are? Everyone uses different moves in different ways according to their personal style.

 

I don't see how some abstract concept of "equality" is more important than banning certain things and allowing others to make a better tournament experience. When things aren't equal (like how customs are more detrimental to the tournament experience and game balance than Mii's alternate specials are), we treat them differently (banning customs and allowing Mii moves).

Again, treating characters "fairly" or whatever isn't as important, to me at least, as having a practical, balanced game. Meta Knight broke the game balance, so he was banned. Customs break the game in other ways, like being impractical for tournaments (and in some cases being detrimental to the game balance), so they're banned.

(Also, again, I wouldn't mind Palutena getting customs, but it is still rather impractical for reasons given above, sans unlockable status.)

...Or because all customs are a pain to set up for tournaments, since they're unlockable (and take a long time to do so), the game can only hold 10 setups for each character (causing rifts in the community, since not every setup can exist on the console), et cetera.

How will keeping everything "equal" make the game / the tournament better? We already treat characters "unfairly" by banning stages which are beneficial to them, like banning shark-able stages because of Meta Knight back in Brawl. But it makes for a better game, with better balance.

If anything, allowing their alternate specials is treating the Miis "fairly" -- they're pretty bad characters otherwise, and it is "their thing."

Two things.

First, you mention the ten custom combination limit as an impediment that helps warrant the customs ban. Mii fighters have the same limitation. As you stated, picking ten "standard" movesets would create more community divisions.

Second, giving miis something extra because they are bad is an unsound reason for treating them unequally.

We seem to just take approaches. I'm vying for competitive equality, you are arguing from a standpoint that desires maximum content.

I'll continue to defend the idea that competitive quality is the most fair approach for the competitive community. I'm sure you'll continue defending your position too, though I'm not savvy enough to predict how you'll do that.

 

Two things.

First, you mention the ten custom combination limit as an impediment that helps warrant the customs ban. Mii fighters have the same limitation. As you stated, picking ten "standard" movesets would create more community divisions.

No, you can hold far more Miis than other custom setups -- 99, I seem to recall? (Don't quote me on that.) While it's not quite enough to hold each possible combination -- 247 is the amount of potential setups IIRC -- it should be enough to allow every Mii player to get a custom setup, which takes roughly the same time as custom controls do to configure.

Second, giving miis something extra because they are bad is an unsound reason for treating them unequally.

It's not "giving Miis something extra because they are bad" -- it's removing some things (customs) because they impede tournament play, and keeping other things (Mii specials) because they don't.

We seem to just take approaches. I'm vying for competitive equality, you are arguing from a standpoint that desires maximum content.

I'll continue to defend the idea that competitive quality is the most fair approach for the competitive community. I'm sure you'll continue defending your position too, though I'm not savvy enough to predict how you'll do that.

Fair enough -- agree to disagree?

 

I have no real opinion on the matter of Mii legality, though I do in general agree that allowing them to customize their move sets with some limitations (no counter picking) sounds like the ideal solution.

What I'm here for is the absolutely moronic assertion that there is no such thing as OP characters. Hell, the same idiot even mentions Metaknight in the same breath, then goes on to give the most disingenuous analogy possible and derive the absolute wrong conclusion from it. Yes, Diosdi , it's technically possible for a Ganon to beat a MK on a competent, competitive basis. It's also technically possible for you to move out of your mother's basement and get laid.

Neither of them are ever going to happen, though.

Now for the matter of your nitwit analogy. "It doesn't matter if you have a great bow if you have no hands." Okay, what about when you and your opponent have hands of roughly equal size and strength? He has a modern hunting rifle. You've got a rubber band. Are you still going to say everything's alright in a distance shooting competition?

 

I have a question. Within the article, it's been stated that some extreme positions are pushing for an "ultimate" set for each Mii Fighter, as per ESAM's Twitter ultimatum. But technically, the ultimate set would have (Brawler, at the very least) in his tiny incarnation, yet nowhere in the article was it mentioned that anyone was arguing for size. Why was that? If, say, we were to decide on one ultimate set, are you telling me it would be too much of a hassle to go into Mii Maker once to create a default Mii with tiny weight and height to be used for all future tournaments, or better yet, scanning a single QR code we could give to future proof Miis? I really don't understand why this wasn't mentioned or brought up.

 

No, you can hold far more Miis than other custom setups -- 99, I seem to recall? (Don't quote me on that.) While it's not quite enough to hold each possible combination -- 247 is the amount of potential setups IIRC -- it should be enough to allow every Mii player to get a custom setup, which takes roughly the same time as custom controls do to configure.

...

Fair enough -- agree to disagree?

First thing - Daaaaaang, today I learned. That's pretty neat.

Second thing - Sure. It kinda proves the point at the end of my first post though. It's very difficult to reach agreement on this, the arguments around it will likely never end.

Hopefully some thoughts were provoked, and hopefully something resembling an agreeable decision is found.

 

They should at least make 1,1,1,1 Miis legal. They are 3 official characters going to waste at tournaments. I see no reason why they shouldn't legalize them.

 

I just want to see as much consistency as we can manage (to avoid further controversy and splitting of the community) and standardization, so we have something to actually focus on in discussion. Like, it's really confusing to have a discussion on Mii Fighter custom moves when some people are talking with a guest size Mii in mind, and others are talking with an optimal-size/weight Mii in mind.

Which is once again why I am most in favour of standardizing 1111 Guest Mii's. I think that's the most consistent ruleset-wise, I think it's a decent compromise and it gives us something to actually work off of for the time being. With a basic set standardized (I say 1111 Guest because it's the most straightforward), we will all at least know what we're talking about when Mii Fighters are again the subject of discussion. And I think this compromise leaves us in the best position to continue to explore where to go with the Mii Fighters in the future, in a more streamlined discussion that is less likely to split the community.

 

Great article! I follow your statement except for...

I'm aware of organizing issues, and they are real.​

What logistic issue is there with allowing Mii Fighters to customize their moves? A Mii Fighter, using a guest Mii, takes only about as much time (usually less from my experience) than setting up custom controls, which the vast majority of players are already allowed to do!
​

how many Mii mains do you honestly expect to face in your bracket? If you don't drown in pools, you'll be lucky to face more than two.

Plus, as Nova pointed out: there's so few Mii mains that there's no way this additional 30-45 seconds used per Mii would have a dramatic effect on a tournament's ability to run smoothly.

Here's a great example made by Dapuffster showing how quickly Mii Fighters with Guest Miis and any moveset can be made: https://youtu.be/-rRLERdIDMA​