Editoral: A Smashing Debate, Part 1

Two or three stocks? Customs on or off? Miis legal or not? Is Halberd still viable? These hot topics have haunted the Smash community ever since the game released. Will there ever be an agreement? Who knows; what is for sure is that here at Smashboards we want to give our opinions.

Here is where the Smashing Debate comes to life. Through the next weeks we're going to publish parts of this series discussing the issues that attack our stability as a community. And, as part of the #MiiWiik, we're starting right off with the topic that has generated the most debate lately: Mii Legality.

WARNING
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If you suffer from attacks of rage, saltiness, or if you dislike hearing other people's opinions, this series of articles may provoke serious anger and loss of friends. You have been warned.

Let's get started.

The Issue
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The key to understanding this problem is knowing how matchups (MUs) work. Players compare one character's strengths to another's and pinpoint who struggles against who. Miis require a major level of understanding, as they can be created to be anything from paper-thin and 8 feet tall to a ball-round, 3-foot character. These factors obviously make the abilities of the character fluctuate and gives Miis a plethora of variability in combo and damage potential, defense and other stats. Now, these factors, combined with the already wide potential combinations with customs, creates a problem.

The Perspectives​

"All Miis Matter": Miis should be completely legal - all 27 combinations - but players should still be limited to using the standard, pre-installed Miis of medium sizes. The alternative Special Moves can't be considered "customs" or equals to other characters' customs because they are already unlocked and present totally different moves, instead of just some changes in damage, speed, and one or two effects.

Supports: All combinations allowed, medium sizes.

1111: Miis should be legal, but limited to their 1111 moveset. The ability to use all Miis creates some over-powered combinations and there's no way to control it as they are basically 81 different characters. This choice saves tournament organizers (TOs) a lot of work, and the 1111 setup is fairly balanced. With 81 different movesets, the MUs multiply and players have a lot of difficulty knowing how all of them work.

Supports: 1111 setups for all styles, medium sizes.

Our Opinions​

We brought in two of our writers to give their points of view on the subject.

Nova​

This is just an opinion, but I think there's ZERO reason to limit the movesets of 3 whole characters. Their move variations do not change how their matchups are played, just the options they have in certain situations. Almost all the arguments in favor of the ban translate to "I don't know the matchup, and I don't want to know" (Disclaimer: Almost all of them.)

I understand that having the option to counterpick moves is a huge advantages, but that can be solved by banning just that. One option that some tournaments commonly use is to let the Mii player choose any combination of moves, but limit them to one combination per set. That's one. There's also another more extreme option: decide on an "ultimate" moveset, and after it's decided, there's no going back.

While this may seem horrible, it's a lot better than just sticking to 1111, which is the main reason Mii mains are non-existent. Besides, even if the unthinkable happens and we allow Miis to use all their moves, counterpick or not, they'll still be standard size so you don't need to learn combo and kill percentages for all the variations, just one.

Finally, let me ask you something: how many Mii mains do you honestly expect to face in your bracket? If you don't drown in pools, you'll be lucky to face more than two. And even if you do, you can pretty much counterpick Sheik and win (provided that you can, in fact, press buttons). So, why do we keep banning three potential characters that can be viable just for some problems that can be solved easily? We lose virtually nothing and gain a lot just by letting them free of their chains. I'll let you decide which is better.

OniKirby​

The magic number, 1111. Many think that this number solves everything. For some, it does.

To me, there's no thing as an over-powered character; even Melee Fox and Brawl Meta Knight. You can, after all, defeat a Melee Fox with Kirby; you can, after all, defeat a Brawl Meta Knight with Ganondorf. Let's just say that "it's not the bow, it's the archer". It does not matter if you have a great character in your hands, if you have no hands.

Miis are just more versatile than other characters, and alternative moves do not change the MUs entirely; special moves are just 33% of a character's moveset. Characters in Smash are made to represent their home game. Miis are a way to represent yourself by changing aspects of your creation, moving and switching. In the end, a Mii should reflect you, and not your limitations.

Cutting aside 26 combinations from a character is reducing to a minimum what the character is. It's like playing Fox only using lasers, or playing Ryu with only the light version of his attacks. The alternative moves are made to change your style, and reflect how you like to play. Let's think for a second. By banning customs, normal characters lose their ability to select non-1111 variations. Mii Fighters' movesets cannot be considered "customs" in the same sense: by banning them they are losing what makes them interesting characters.

I'm aware of organizing issues, and they are real. Still, the game can keep 99 Mii Fighters, enough so that all 81 combinations are available on the console using the 3DS-to-Console method.

Conclusion​

We agree that Miis should be legal in some way, but not just 1111, as this restricts a player's options. In the end, we want to know your opinion! Let us know what you think about this topic, and stay tuned for the next part of the Smashing Debate.

 

The alternative Special Moves can't be considered "customs" or equals to other characters' customs because they are already unlocked and present totally different moves, instead of just some changes in damage, speed, and one or two effects.

i think that than we should also allow Palutena's costums.

 

Kinda disappointed that we didn't get a Golden Movesets rep. One of the big issues with 1111 is that those specials typically don't synergize well with each other and the rest of the moveset. Using the Golden Movesets provides a standard, unified setup for tournaments while also not leaving the Miis with moves that feel out of place with the rest of their kit.

 

While I did agree with a majority of Nova's argument, this bit right here definitely grabbed my attention:

"Their move variations do not change how their matchups are played, just the options they have in certain situations."

Changing a move to which a character has access to will undeniably alter specific MUs in some way, depending on which move they lost/gained. Take, for example, a Mii Brawler player opting to employ Helicopter Kick over Piston Punch. Given that the former is a much better OOS option and also functions as a potent edge-guarding tool, some MUs become either better or worse depending on how suspectable a character is to the traits of the chosen move. Ness, a character that would otherwise be able to safely attack Brawler's shield, must now play safer at all percents in fear of Up B OOS, thereby worsening the MU for Ness. Likewise, a Ness main would be more inclined to fear Shot Put over Ultimate Uppercut because of its properties as a falling, angled, disjointed projectile that can very effectively gimp him. These two moves in tandem force Ness to play safer and encourage Brawler to put heavier emphasis on getting him offstage and shielding more often.


This, of course, isn't limited to strictly Ness, he's just my go to example, as I know him far better than I do any other character.

That's a good point actually. I agree with you, but what I was trying to say was that they're essentially the same character with a different move. You still play the same MU when playing against them. Brawler? Keep your distance and gimp him. Gunner? Rush him down and take advatage of his long starting moves. It's still the same basic MU, you just need to take into consideration some moves. You will always know which move your opponet chooses, so you are always prepeared.
Anyways, thanks for the read and for your opinion.

 

I think I like the idea of taking a set that works best and sticking to it. It doesn't matter how sound the logic is, players are not going to want to learn a combination of 3 different specials for the same reason and can't use theirs, it's a waste of time to them. As petty as it is, its just not something people are willing to do. However, forcing it to be 1-1-1-1 is absolutely rediculous. It's not like Palutena and Megaman where they have established moves for when customs are off, so there is not any 'rule' Mii Fighters have to go by. I say we get all the best Mii players out there, put em in the lab, and have them conclude what they feel is the best, most viable moveset and go from there. Because let's face it, even with their best specials, and aren't going to be breaking into high tier anytime soon. So why not let them be the best they can?

Though in the end I still feel there isn't much non-petty reasons to not allow Miis to use all their specials. But if we had to compensate, everyone would probably be going for the most-viable load out regardless.

 

For miis its simple allow them but don't use customs
Edit:Meaning like there speed and power

 

As far as I know, all characters in super smash bros have a characteristic that set them apart from the others members of the roster, and being a completely custom character is what makes Mii's who they are... a reflection of the player.
Personally, Since Mii's have COMPLETLY DIFFERENT SPECIAL MOVES at their disposal; I don't think that's right to ban them from tournaments.
All of their custom moves, are available from the start, so there's no time issue on having to unlock them; they aren't broken too so why should we ban those completely different play styles ?

It's not a question of equality in the character roster; it's all about being fair, of allowing characters show off all of their potential.

I also apply the same logic to Palutena, since all of her customs are available from the start, and they are completely different, allowing different play styles.
Custom moves on other characters,changes slightly their game play, mostly changing an aspect or two from their special moves.
Variations of the same special move, create some problems, but completely different special moves changes the character as a whole, creating a completely new character.

I'm not saying that it makes a better character, but instead gives them completely different options to do all kind of stuff, which is the point that they all have completely different special moves, to be adaptable, since that's their special characteristic in the game, and banning that, almost kills the essence of the character.

 

No character should be allowed access to more than 5 specials moves.

Ban

 

So I spent a while reading everything and then just summarizing the arguements on both sides. Let me know if I'm missing something.

Pro Miis
1. 1111 handicaps them greatly, and they do not "break" the game with their customs allowed.
2. Customs in tournaments are harder to setup for characters that are not Miis because you only get 10 slots, but Miis have enough slots to do all combinations.
3. Miis are about customizability, do not require a large amount of grinding to obtain moves or to turn on customization.

Against Miis:
1. Other characters can only use 1111. Miis should only use 1111. Equality must be maintained.
2. If miis can do it, then Palutena should as well.
2a. If Miis and Palutena can, Mega Man should as well.
3. More matchup knoweldge is required/People do not want them in tournaments.

Other notes:
1. Miis will likely not be able to counter-pick their moveset during a set. The opponent will know the custom moves before a match starts.
2. Sizes will most likely be default, unless the community can agree on a specific size (most likely smallest sizes).
3. Meta Knight was banned because he was too overpowered. Miis will no where near as overpowered, but can have certain moves banned if it comes to that point.
4. Specials aren't the only moves that Miis use.
5. An "ultimate" moveset can be made if customization is still not allowed.



Personally, when I look at this little debate, here are my opinions.
Pros
1. If a character practically has no hope to win, I don't mind them being brought up near other character's levels. Supposedly, even with customs, the Miis aren't going to even be top tier, maybe not even make it high tier.
2. I don't setup tournaments so I'll stay out of this one. (I might make a local scene for my tiny town someday though..... Probably not before Smash 5 comes out though sadly)
3. Yay for things that don't take time I guess? Though I will say, when I first saw Mii Fighters I thought that it would be nice to see competitive play where different Miis would have slightly different special moves to fit their gameplay styles. It makes things more entertaining to watch.
Cons
1. Equality is a valid point. However, not all characters are created equally. If everyone agrees a character is too OP/UP, then changes should be made so it is more balanced and varied for a more entertaining experience for the players and spectators.
2. Slippery slopes are a thing to be cautious about in arguements. So basically, I say ignore this for now. Though if you really wanted my opinion, I'd be fine with Palutena's customs being around since she's such a low-tier character. Megaman I'm more inclined to say no on him because he requires grinding. Though I don't know the strength of his moves, and about a year a go I kept hearing people complaining how OP some of his customs were (though nothing competitive though, I'd have to research into megaman's customs to really know).
3. I don't know Wario's matchup and I hate seeing his fat, gross, greedy face. Should he be banned? Heck no. Same sort of thinking with banning moves, just not as severe as banning a character. Not knowing a matchup is the worst excuse and it's more of an individual's problem, just learn the matchup.



Hopefully there's some nice food for thought. I didn't mean for this post to be so huge.

 

So I spent a while reading everything and then just summarizing the arguements on both sides. Let me know if I'm missing something.

Pro Miis
1. 1111 handicaps them greatly, and they do not "break" the game with their customs allowed.
2. Customs in tournaments are harder to setup for characters that are not Miis because you only get 10 slots, but Miis have enough slots to do all combinations.
3. Miis are about customizability, do not require a large amount of grinding to obtain moves or to turn on customization.

Against Miis:
1. Other characters can only use 1111. Miis should only use 1111. Equality must be maintained.
2. If miis can do it, then Palutena should as well.
2a. If Miis and Palutena can, Mega Man should as well.
3. More matchup knoweldge is required/People do not want them in tournaments.

Other notes:
1. Miis will likely not be able to counter-pick their moveset during a set. The opponent will know the custom moves before a match starts.
2. Sizes will most likely be default, unless the community can agree on a specific size (most likely smallest sizes).
3. Meta Knight was banned because he was too overpowered. Miis will no where near as overpowered, but can have certain moves banned if it comes to that point.
4. Specials aren't the only moves that Miis use.
5. An "ultimate" moveset can be made if customization is still not allowed.



Personally, when I look at this little debate, here are my opinions.
Pros
1. If a character practically has no hope to win, I don't mind them being brought up near other character's levels. Supposedly, even with customs, the Miis aren't going to even be top tier, maybe not even make it high tier.
2. I don't setup tournaments so I'll stay out of this one. (I might make a local scene for my tiny town someday though..... Probably not before Smash 5 comes out though sadly)
3. Yay for things that don't take time I guess? Though I will say, when I first saw Mii Fighters I thought that it would be nice to see competitive play where different Miis would have slightly different special moves to fit their gameplay styles. It makes things more entertaining to watch.
Cons
1. Equality is a valid point. However, not all characters are created equally. If everyone agrees a character is too OP/UP, then changes should be made so it is more balanced and varied for a more entertaining experience for the players and spectators.
2. Slippery slopes are a thing to be cautious about in arguements. So basically, I say ignore this for now. Though if you really wanted my opinion, I'd be fine with Palutena's customs being around since she's such a low-tier character. Megaman I'm more inclined to say no on him because he requires grinding. Though I don't know the strength of his moves, and about a year a go I kept hearing people complaining how OP some of his customs were (though nothing competitive though, I'd have to research into megaman's customs to really know).
3. I don't know Wario's matchup and I hate seeing his fat, gross, greedy face. Should he be banned? Heck no. Same sort of thinking with banning moves, just not as severe as banning a character. Not knowing a matchup is the worst excuse and it's more of an individual's problem, just learn the matchup.



Hopefully there's some nice food for thought. I didn't mean for this post to be so huge.

Wow...I apreciate the work, this must have took forever to do

 

Everyone that supports the "All Miis Matter' mindset should take a moment to sign this campaign for Miis at Evo, we would all sincerely appreciate it!

https://www.change.org/p/free-miis-at-evo-2016

 

Wow...I apreciate the work, this must have took forever to do

Took me a few hours. Wanted to make sure I read and re-read everything to make I understood both sides and also to word things in a way that would make sense (and there's a lot of overlapping of the same points). Basically the part where I gave my opinion took only about 5 minutes to write.

I am biased towards Mii customization because I like there to be variety in competition. After all, Meta Knight is my favorite character in Smash. Though I don't want to look at competitive stuff and all I see is Meta Knights (same with Melee Fox, etc). Those are extreme examples, but you get my point. The more characters that are viable the better.

 

Personal opinion here. Default Mii size, best move set for each Mii decided by the community. This way it's better than 1-1-1-1 and makes them more viable.If that is not a good enough compromise then a ban needs to happen.

Edit: After some thought about the situation that we have been presented, I think the current rule-set of 1-1-1-1 mid size is the best. All the other characters are 1-1-1-1 and some like Palutean have their customs unlocked such as Miis. It is the fairest way since customs are banned and personal I don't want to see customs come back due to Miis or anything else.

 

I don't see how some abstract concept of "equality" is more important than banning certain things and allowing others to make a better tournament experience. When things aren't equal (like how customs are more detrimental to the tournament experience and game balance than Mii's alternate specials are), we treat them differently (banning customs and allowing Mii moves).

Again, treating characters "fairly" or whatever isn't as important, to me at least, as having a practical, balanced game. Meta Knight broke the game balance, so he was banned. Customs break the game in other ways, like being impractical for tournaments (and in some cases being detrimental to the game balance), so they're banned.

(Also, again, I wouldn't mind Palutena getting customs, but it is still rather impractical for reasons given above, sans unlockable status.)

...Or because all customs are a pain to set up for tournaments, since they're unlockable (and take a long time to do so), the game can only hold 10 setups for each character (causing rifts in the community, since not every setup can exist on the console), et cetera.

How will keeping everything "equal" make the game / the tournament better? We already treat characters "unfairly" by banning stages which are beneficial to them, like banning shark-able stages because of Meta Knight back in Brawl. But it makes for a better game, with better balance.

If anything, allowing their alternate specials is treating the Miis "fairly" -- they're pretty bad characters otherwise, and it is "their thing."


People "not wanting them" isn't a competent argument by any stretch of the imagination. That's subjective (opinion-based), not objective (fact-based). Rulesets should be based on the latter. If people don't like them / want them in, then that's fine, but they're only going to get banned if there are actual reasons to do so, e.g. overpoweredness.

Unlocking customs in a week, though, is either multiplied countless times by the number of Wii Us at the tournament, or means that you have to take the time to sync it all up through a 3DS. The former takes a lot of time and effort, and the latter takes a bit less time (but still a lot) and means that you can't easily customize your own setup, without doing it on 3DS and copying it over. That means that you have things like the custom moveset project, which will only divide the community since someone's favorite combination isn't going to be on there.

Miis on the other hand can be set up in the same amount of time as custom controls can, don't have to be unlocked, and can hold far, far more move combinations.

Yeah, that and customs are kind of messy to deal with anyway, as described above.

Something that makes this less of a problem, however, is how there will likely be a few setups that will be more popular. For example, most Mii Brawlers are going to use Helicopter Kick, and there's probably going to be a few "best setups" that everyone uses, so you just have to keep those ones in mind.

Also, again, it's just the specials -- the rest of the moveset remains the same.

Ganon, though, is another character whose customs have to be unlocked, are impractical in the other ways I described (only 10 slots, etc), and aren't his main feature.

It was, at the very least compared to Miis -- I talked about this earlier. (Won't repeat it, that'd be redundant at this point. : p)

(Snipped out the part that wasn't directed towards me.)

I know you talked about it earlier, but while it was an early complaint, unlocking customs pretty soon because a non-issue. The big issue with customs was the time it took to pick your setup which applies to miis as much as any other character. All arguments on this are subjective, the ruleset in general is an entirely subjective issue, and you can use facts to argue and try to convince people to share your opinion but the result will be the popular subjective choice wins out and saying your way is fact is a terrible way to make your point.
You say same amount of time as custom controls but you're adding that time ON TOP of custom controls. Ultimately everything that applies to other customs applies to miis competitively, and they should be treated the same.

 

I know you talked about it earlier, but while it was an early complaint, unlocking customs pretty soon because a non-issue. The big issue with customs was the time it took to pick your setup which applies to miis as much as any other character. All arguments on this are subjective, the ruleset in general is an entirely subjective issue, and you can use facts to argue and try to convince people to share your opinion but the result will be the popular subjective choice wins out and saying your way is fact is a terrible way to make your point.
You say same amount of time as custom controls but you're adding that time ON TOP of custom controls.

It takes literally thirty seconds.

Not to mention the low amount of Mii players that are likely to be at a given tournament -- it'll take no more than a few minutes total. (If it does somehow become a problem, just make Mii players who want to use custom specials sacrifice custom controls for them, problem solved.)

Ultimately everything that applies to other customs applies to miis competitively, and they should be treated the same.

Except that's not true -- some customs were OP, they had to be unlocked, made the meta too complicated, et cetera. The same is not true with Miis -- they're not OP, don't have to be unlocked, and don't make the meta nearly as complicated as 100+ customs on every single fighter did.

As was brought up in an article earlier this Wiik, a ban must be warranted. Just because banning customs in general was warranted, doesn't mean that banning Miis' special moves is warranted. They must be examined as separate cases, and doing so reveals that they are very different in a few ways.

Finally, I ask this question:

How will the game benefit from banning Miis' special moves?

 

After reading a bunch of these, I found a couple things on what people seem to agree on.

1. guest size Mii is ideal from a logistics perspective.
2. 1111 is kinda stupid, there should be something better than that.
3. a lot of arguments against allowing a different movesets are based on assumptions people make on first sight. That's just dumb, look further than that. If you want to make a rational decision, you have to think about it thoroughly.
4. Why are we having this discussion in the first place? It's not like allowing miis their moves will break the game or even be that big of an effect on the meta.

I hope I got that right. So my opinions on this:
Mii sizes are very influential in how a mii plays, because it affects damage output, hurtbox size, range of moves and the big one: the frame data.
I have been messing around with this setting for Mii sword since day 1. When it comes to my own personal preference, today it is tiniest Mii, because he has the best frame data and mobility; a more aggressive build.
Pressure is important in smash 4 or any other game, because it's easier to make mistakes when under pressure. This can then be capitalized of, especially if you have good aggressive options.
This is why I prefer it this way. Taking a bigger mii makes them much slower, but offers range and a bit more damage in return. This is a lot more defensive. Playing with this means correct spacing, precision and smart play is a lot more important. It's a different playstyle altogether.

So making someone like me, who is used to a much more aggressive version of Mii sword play with guest Mii will mean for me I will either have to adapt to my character all over again or find a different main. It's of course, something that seems less than ideal. Then again, if that is the tradeoff for having any moveset or at least one that is a lot like the one I like to use I would consider it, try it and come to my decision. It's clear a compromise of sorts is needed here, which also means nobody gets all and we all have to give up something in order to gain something else.
Life itself is a lot like that, actually. We'll just have to deal with it.

To sum up: ideally, I'd like full customisation for Miis. I am however willing to look at a compromise to make it easier for everyone else and adapt if I have to, one way or the other.

 

3 stocks>>>

 

The whole Concept of "Miis should be allowed there full custom move-sets" argument is Stupid, Yes the Miis are not very good, but neither is Zelda so why Dont she get her custom moves available, Because you have to unlock them and its a time waster right. Because for every system they have to
*Set them up (updates and the lot)
*unlock all characters and stages
*buy the DLC (characters and stages)
( I assume they borrow Wii Us with full content of players)

So Custom moves would have to be unlocked as well right well Thats another 20 hours of grinding to get them all

"but Miis are there from the start and they are bad characters"

Tough! I mean there not even considered the worst in the game if you want To use a character that's bad go for it! YOU ARE MORE HYPE TO WATCH BECAUSE OF IT! but dont go around saying you deserve customs and other characters don't that's ridiculous.

New rule guys smash balls are allowed in fights but only mii players can use them!!!

Anyway i think 1111 is the best way to do it, However the mii size should be whatever is classified as best for the move set, why not make a new mii and make is small (small is considered best right) then create the 3 Mii variations for it. Bam 3 Miis easy to make.

 

The whole Concept of "Miis should be allowed there full custom move-sets" argument is Stupid, Yes the Miis are not very good, but neither is Zelda so why Dont she get her custom moves available, Because you have to unlock them right and its a time waster right.

The same reasons as other customs were banned: they can be overpowered, have to be unlocked, and are generally impractical for tournaments.

Because for every system they have to
*Set them up (updates and the lot)
*unlock all characters and stages
*buy the DLC (characters and stages)
( I assume they borrow Wii Us with full content of players)

So Custom moves would have to be unlocked as well right well Thats another 20 hours of grinding to get them all

Yes, it is (if not even more grinding than that). Your point?

"but Miis are there from the start and they are bad characters"

Tough! I mean there not even considered the worst in the game if you want To use a character that's bad go for it! YOU ARE MORE HYPE TO WATCH BECAUSE OF IT! but dont go around saying you deserve customs and other characters don't that's ridiculous.

Should other fighters like Zelda be buffed? Yes, of course; that'd be great for the game balance. However, allowing customs for those fighters isn't practical, for reasons I've stated above. They were banned because of reasons that don't apply to Mii customs.

New rule guys smash balls are allowed in fights but only mii players can use them!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

 

So much heat and salt in the comments O_O

 

It takes literally thirty seconds.

Not to mention the low amount of Mii players that are likely to be at a given tournament -- it'll take no more than a few minutes total. (If it does somehow become a problem, just make Mii players who want to use custom specials sacrifice custom controls for them, problem solved.)

Except that's not true -- some customs were OP, they had to be unlocked, made the meta too complicated, et cetera. The same is not true with Miis -- they're not OP, don't have to be unlocked, and don't make the meta nearly as complicated as 100+ customs on every single fighter did.

As was brought up in an article earlier this Wiik, a ban must be warranted. Just because banning customs in general was warranted, doesn't mean that banning Miis' special moves is warranted. They must be examined as separate cases, and doing so reveals that they are very different in a few ways.

Finally, I ask this question:

How will the game benefit from banning Miis' special moves?

But the thing is this whole 'doesn't make the meta to complicated' thing and 'not being op' thing applies to every other custom set that isn't op which is the vast majority. The reasons are the same reasons every other custom is banned, minus the OP thing for some customs, and minus unlocking them which isn't an issue. There's automatic systems for unlocking customs that have come out that will unlock them all within a week, that was never a major concern. Yeah it will only take 30 seconds but so would any other custom fighter on their own, you can give special acception

 

But the thing is this whole 'doesn't make the meta to complicated' thing and 'not being op' thing applies to every other custom set that isn't op which is the vast majority. The reasons are the same reasons every other custom is banned, minus the OP thing for some customs, and minus unlocking them which isn't an issue. There's automatic systems for unlocking customs that have come out that will unlock them all within a week, that was never a major concern. Yeah it will only take 30 seconds but so would any other custom fighter on their own, you can give special acception

The problem with unlocking customs, though, is that it can't be guaranteed that every setup has them. They take a long time to get when you have to do it for every single system, and with bring-your-own-console situations... I don't have customs unlocked on my Wii U, for one. Again, it can't be guaranteed that they'll be available -- unlike Miis. This is compared to DLC and game updates, which most everyone is bound to have (and are also much less of a hassle to get than customs). Even unlockable fighters and tournament-legal stages are pretty easy to get -- just playing 120 matches (something any Smash fan is bound to do) and completing a couple quick tasks on the challenge board. Customs on the other hand are hours and hours of out-of-the-way grinding, RNG repeats, and really not worth it especially when they're not legal in all tournaments.

Customs are banned because they can be overpowered, are impractical for tournament use, are extremely inaccessible to players, and add way too much complication to the game. These issues do not apply to Miis. There is no good reason to ban them. They must be treated differently from custom moves because they are different from custom moves.

I'm beginning to feel like a broken record at this point. : p

 

Why did Sakurai executed customs moves and Miis so poorly? We wouldn't have this debates. Repeated customs? Who was the idiot who green lighted this idea?! Must be the same idiot who thought not giving customs to the DLC characters was a good idea. "Online bullying" So what? It's the same thing as the cutscene debate, there a lot of idiots who will use Hitler or phallic Miis, it can't be stopped unless those people are deleted from existence. No Miis in FG is stupid.

To be fair we brought it on ourselves-Sakurai himself even said nCustoms were built solely for fun play and not for any serious play in the Direct.

 

oops, double post.

 

EDIT: ignore this

 

An easy fix for the entire mii creation problem is for the mii users to bring their 3ds to the tourney and upload their "ultimate" mii that cannot change its moveset for the whole tourney. This way, TO's won't have to waste time creating all the different combination of mii's and the mii users will still have their preferred moveset.

 

The problem with unlocking customs, though, is that it can't be guaranteed that every setup has them. They take a long time to get when you have to do it for every single system, and with bring-your-own-console situations... I don't have customs unlocked on my Wii U, for one. Again, it can't be guaranteed that they'll be available -- unlike Miis. This is compared to DLC and game updates, which most everyone is bound to have (and are also much less of a hassle to get than customs). Even unlockable fighters and tournament-legal stages are pretty easy to get -- just playing 120 matches (something any Smash fan is bound to do) and completing a couple quick tasks on the challenge board. Customs on the other hand are hours and hours of out-of-the-way grinding, RNG repeats, and really not worth it especially when they're not legal in all tournaments.

Customs are banned because they can be overpowered, are impractical for tournament use, are extremely inaccessible to players, and add way too much complication to the game. These issues do not apply to Miis. There is no good reason to ban them. They must be treated differently from custom moves because they are different from custom moves.

I'm beginning to feel like a broken record at this point. : p

All of those apply to miis except being overpowered and that also doesn't apply to most customs. Mii customs are just as unaccessable and impractical as any other individual custom moveset. And if they are only different because they are already unlocked, then I guess dlc fighters should all be banned because plenty of people don't have those and customs are pretty easy to get. Doesn't add up. They should be treated as all other customs because they ARE customs.

 

All of those apply to miis except being overpowered

They're not unlockable, and add far less complication to the game than customs do.

and that also doesn't apply to most customs.

But the problem is that if you start banning certain customs, then the community will inevitably become fractured. There'll be a divide on which customs are OP -- where do you draw the line?

A convenient answer to that question happens to be Mii customs. Non-Mii customs are impractical in other ways too, so it works out quite nicely.

Mii customs are just as unaccessable and impractical as any other individual custom moveset.

Customs take hours and hours of out-of-the-way grinding to obtain. Mii customs are unlocked right from the get-go. I fail to see the logic here.

And if they are only different because they are already unlocked, then I guess dlc fighters should all be banned because plenty of people don't have those and customs are pretty easy to get. Doesn't add up.

DLC fighters are much less of a chore to get than Mii customs, however, especially when you're doing it across multiple consoles. Customs are extremely out-of-the-way -- you'll need to spend hours and hours doing side modes to unlock them. (If you've heard of a faster method, link it here.)

DLC fighters, on the other hand, are much easier to obtain -- just buy them from the eShop, and wait the 5 minutes or so for them to download (not counting the actual patch, but it's not like anyone's going to skip out on that).

They should be treated as all other customs because they ARE customs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

So should we treat 75m like we do Smashville (i.e. make it tourney legal) because they're both stages? No -- they're vastly different, just like Mii customs and regular customs are different. "Because we did it to customs" isn't a valid reason to apply any rules or restrictions to Mii customs -- they are two separate cases.

 

Miis are fine, but let's not pretend Mii Costums are any different than normal customs, because the custom button doesn't need to be pressed for the former or because Sakurai intended it that way.

Because he didn't intend competitive play either, with it's small stage list, no items, stock instead of time and tiers

We already did alot against Sakurai's intention make this game competitive, let's not give Miis special treatment because we believe Sakurai might have intended them to be that way based on a button on the screen.

Let's give them special treatment because there's no legitimate reason not to.

I also support Palutena customs, because they aren't much different than Mii Customs.
Both unlocked from the start.
Both have dysfunctional default sets
Both were designed with customs in mind.

Don't give Mii's Customs a different name because of extra menus being accessible normally or not.

Really, I support Miis for being fun characters but maaaan the argumentation of pro-Miis sometimes just doesn't hold water

 

I'm for us coming up with one ultimate move set for each of the Mii's and using default Mii's. I feel that is a compromise that fits both sides well.
It's no harder than unlocking Mr. Game and Watch or other characters in the game.

 

It was going pretty okay...UNTIL

To me, there's no thing as an over-powered character; even Melee Fox and Brawl Meta Knight. You can, after all, defeat a Melee Fox with Kirby; you can, after all, defeat a Brawl Meta Knight with Ganondorf. Let's just say that "it's not the bow, it's the archer". It does not matter if you have a great character in your hands, if you have no hands.

Yeah, you CAN win 80-20's...if you're significantly better than your opponent. You have to remember that MU numbers only apply if two high level players play each other with the characters, at which point, the 20 will probably lose the set. If the other player compensates for a bad MU with superior skill, then the numbers get altered quite a bit.

However, just because a crappy Fox/MK player loses to the best Kirby/Ganon player in the world doesn't suddenly mean the former characters are suddenly balanced. That's not how it works.

Nor does any of this have relevance on the Mii's anyway, because most of em are mid tier at best, so any "balance issues" are moot regardless.

 

Man I haven't seen a news staff push an agenda this hard since FOX News.

This whole past week of Smashboards News (and Smashcapps' Twitter) has been Mii, Mii, Mii, Mii, Mii. A matter that, as far as I've noticed by traveling from state to state every week, has already been settled by their own regions. I don't think I've been to an event in recent months where Miis were ever banned but they've always been restricted to 1111.

I'm not gonna say you're wrong, but you're all beating a dead horse with some of these articles and coming off a little pretentious; especially when you open your article with a nerd rage warning and Onikirby's non-Mii-related parts which kind of devolved into such a horrible misunderstanding of Smash games in general that it even made me check his tournament results just to know if they've ever played a Smash game competitively. I'm sorry but you went in too deep, dude. Broken is and always has been a term defined by the players, each player. You can say it's the archer, not the bow; but when an archer comes in with a semi-automatic, nah, it's probably not the archer.

 

The alternative Special Moves can't be considered "customs" or equals to other characters' customs because they are already unlocked and present totally different moves, instead of just some changes in damage, speed, and one or two effects.

This argument can be applied to Palutena as well, yet the only one who cares about her are the Palu mains.

Finally, let me ask you something: how many Mii mains do you honestly expect to face in your bracket? If you don't drown in pools, you'll be lucky to face more than two. And even if you do, you can pretty much counterpick Sheik and win (provided that you can, in fact, press buttons).

This was a pretty silly and pointless thing to say about Miis. Last time I checked Sheik doesn't beat Miis so badly that anyone can pull one out of their back pocket and win. The whole "pick Sheik" approach to solving problems is one that's getting old, and doesn't really add anything new or relevant to the discussion. If someone wanted to pick Sheik they would, if they aren't counterpicking Sheik when in doubt they probably won't start doing so now that you told them to.

To me, there's no thing as an over-powered character; even Melee Fox and Brawl Meta Knight. You can, after all, defeat a Melee Fox with Kirby; you can, after all, defeat a Brawl Meta Knight with Ganondorf. Let's just say that "it's not the bow, it's the archer". It does not matter if you have a great character in your hands, if you have no hands.

Oh this argument has already gone south. You can defeat a Brawl Meta Knight with Ganondorf provided your the Meta Knight has no idea what they're doing. At a competitive level however, you can't. That MU was even deemed unwinnable. As for Kirby vs Fox it may technically be winnable, but the most you're going to see a Kirby player do is make it out of pools and take stocks vs any notable Fox.

My stance: Miis should be restricted to 1111 sets, or one universal set decided by the Smash 4 Backroom. Miis customs, alternate specials, whatever you want to call them are still just that. Alternate special moves that can be mixed and matched. Of course that doesn't apply to other characters because their special moves are variations. Of course that also doesn't apply to Palutena's non-variation customs because they can't be selected with the custom button off.

What happens when 1111 supporters use the same logic by pointing to the game manual that shows the Mii's 1111 sets? Then playing by what we interpret to be the game's intention is outrageous. It's all of the contradictions within Mii supporters' own arguments that really keep from selling full moveset customization to me.

 

What's wrong with using "optimal" sizes? There seems to be some consensus about what Mii sizes are best for each Mii class, and it wouldn't be that demanding for a TO to make 3 basic Miis for each Wii U in a tourney. Is there something about this option that makes it so overlooked?

It's crap like this Mii restriction that earned us these "Fox-Only, Final Destination" memes. In some ways, we are rightly recognized as a community that goes out of its way to kill variety and fun.

 

It was going pretty okay...UNTIL

Yeah, you CAN win 80-20's...if you're significantly better than your opponent. You have to remember that MU numbers only apply if two high level players play each other with the characters, at which point, the 20 will probably lose the set. If the other player compensates for a bad MU with superior skill, then the numbers get altered quite a bit.

However, just because a crappy Fox/MK player loses to the best Kirby/Ganon player in the world doesn't suddenly mean the former characters are suddenly balanced. That's not how it works.

Nor does any of this have relevance on the Mii's anyway, because most of em are mid tier at best, so any "balance issues" are moot regardless.

I did not said that this means it suddenly balances the whole process...because it does not. But MUs are subjectives and not always there will be two exactly equal players fighting each other. What i meant it was that MUs can be countered with good skill. Example: my best friend always uses Sheik but i counter him with my Kirby...he beats my Kirby with his Falcon. It's all about how the player handles the character. MUs are only an "easy" way for us to do tier lists and are based only on selected opinions.

 

I did not said that this means it suddenly balances the whole process...because it does not. But MUs are subjectives and not always there will be two exactly equal players fighting each other. What i meant it was that MUs can be countered with good skill. Example: my best friend always uses Sheik but i counter him with my Kirby...he beats my Kirby with his Falcon. It's all about how the player handles the character. MUs are only an "easy" way for us to do tier lists and are based only on selected opinions.

Given that we theorycraft and get in enough data from tournaments, MUs are actually how tier lists are made. You can't come and tell me that because you lose to rando player of character X, who loses to your character Y, X suddenly beats Y.

In addition, yes, you can compensate with being better...to an extent. Once you reach the top level of play, though, that stops working, as the weaknesses or lack of counter options of a character become more apparent and exploitable and causes you to lose because it's...a bad MU. Hence why I brought up that only when two good players of equal skill play each other does a MU ratio matter.

And um, how did the whole "tiers don't exist" paragraph help your case exactly? I'll point out again that most mains of the Mii's agree that at best they are mid (with one exception, but that exception required a weight change to light (which would only complicate the debate)). If you want to discuss how tier lists are made, then send me a PM, make a thread or w/e. How tier lists are made has no relevance on this discussion.

 

So I spent a while reading everything and then just summarizing the arguements on both sides. Let me know if I'm missing something.

Pro Miis
1. 1111 handicaps them greatly, and they do not "break" the game with their customs allowed.
2. Customs in tournaments are harder to setup for characters that are not Miis because you only get 10 slots, but Miis have enough slots to do all combinations.
3. Miis are about customizability, do not require a large amount of grinding to obtain moves or to turn on customization.

Against Miis:
1. Other characters can only use 1111. Miis should only use 1111. Equality must be maintained.
2. If miis can do it, then Palutena should as well.
2a. If Miis and Palutena can, Mega Man should as well.
3. More matchup knoweldge is required/People do not want them in tournaments.

Other notes:
1. Miis will likely not be able to counter-pick their moveset during a set. The opponent will know the custom moves before a match starts.
2. Sizes will most likely be default, unless the community can agree on a specific size (most likely smallest sizes).
3. Meta Knight was banned because he was too overpowered. Miis will no where near as overpowered, but can have certain moves banned if it comes to that point.
4. Specials aren't the only moves that Miis use.
5. An "ultimate" moveset can be made if customization is still not allowed.



Personally, when I look at this little debate, here are my opinions.
Pros
1. If a character practically has no hope to win, I don't mind them being brought up near other character's levels. Supposedly, even with customs, the Miis aren't going to even be top tier, maybe not even make it high tier.
2. I don't setup tournaments so I'll stay out of this one. (I might make a local scene for my tiny town someday though..... Probably not before Smash 5 comes out though sadly)
3. Yay for things that don't take time I guess? Though I will say, when I first saw Mii Fighters I thought that it would be nice to see competitive play where different Miis would have slightly different special moves to fit their gameplay styles. It makes things more entertaining to watch.
Cons
1. Equality is a valid point. However, not all characters are created equally. If everyone agrees a character is too OP/UP, then changes should be made so it is more balanced and varied for a more entertaining experience for the players and spectators.
2. Slippery slopes are a thing to be cautious about in arguements. So basically, I say ignore this for now. Though if you really wanted my opinion, I'd be fine with Palutena's customs being around since she's such a low-tier character. Megaman I'm more inclined to say no on him because he requires grinding. Though I don't know the strength of his moves, and about a year a go I kept hearing people complaining how OP some of his customs were (though nothing competitive though, I'd have to research into megaman's customs to really know).
3. I don't know Wario's matchup and I hate seeing his fat, gross, greedy face. Should he be banned? Heck no. Same sort of thinking with banning moves, just not as severe as banning a character. Not knowing a matchup is the worst excuse and it's more of an individual's problem, just learn the matchup.



Hopefully there's some nice food for thought. I didn't mean for this post to be so huge.

I Agree with everything you said, but with one exception
Megaman custom moves doesn't change the special moves as a whole, they just change their properties
You can say that, since he uses the same animations while performing them, his customs are just like the others characters.

 

As one of those few people that would like to use mii gunner competitively it makes me deeply saddened to have his/her potential more than halved by implementing 1111. In my eyes, mii gunner's biggest strength comes from his mobility when in smallest height and weight, being able to escape true combos and strings is a huge godsend.
Not to mention the difference that not being able to use the optimal specials changes the viability drastically. It's not like running 3322 makes the character overpowered by any means, but it does allow the character to actually kill below 200%.

Why stunt a character this hard? It's the difference between being completely useless competitively and being viable at all!

I guess what i'm trying to say is "Let each mii user create one mii set of their own, with no restriction on size or specials, but not be allowed to alter it."

 

Until we make a Smash Congress, these debates will be timeless and endless. I take the stance that Miis should have all their tools since its right there already in their hands. They don't have to unlock anything at all, other than a silly looking hat or clothes.

Miis won't cause some doomsday nonsense that the customs will rise again and there will be something worse than Brawl Meta Knight. First off that's the Brawl players and strong smash 4 players being uncomfortable of change, and the top players wanting to keep things the way they are as it is fair to them and to whatever tournament. Ever heard of testing the waters?
Do just that. Test these waters. We gave customs a chance despite the entire smash 4 community turning into complete children on facebook, twitter, social media in general. Yes we clearly saw that customs at a major like EVO was a no-no, and we haven't seen customs again. We tested it, it didn't work, so we scrapped it, just like how Game Developers test something and if it doesn't work, either fix it , or scrap it and try something else. We should allow Miis to have all their moves, and let a major be their testing ground. The cream of the crop mains, not just any run of the mill mii players, the best of the best.

Don't let EVO this year prove that Miis are fine with 1-1-1-1 and can be viable with just that, this argument is about should they or should they not have customs? EVO will prove one side of the argument depending on how far Miis go with the cookie cutter 1 moveset. And thats fine, but we also need to see a full custom mii allowed at a separate major.
Its not bad to take risks to improve or change the meta. We have to make things fair and optimal early on so at least the new players that come in won't start crying like we are now and undo everyone's hard work. If the Pokemon players were able to adapt and improve their meta with the inclusions of Fairy AND Mega Evolutions, then why can't we improve testing out customs for three characters for right now? Toss away the anger, contempt, rage, stubbornness, and smart aleck remarks, and test.

 

More than a year ago the big discussion was about how much time people needed to unlock customs

At this point it seems more like a political debate about the future ruleset of Sm4sh, promises of fair treatment and all

Just give us one last big tournament like evo with customs it doesn't have to be permanent, if you don't like customs just don't use them

I really don't wanna be waiting another year for sm4sh congress to try and take action

 

I Agree with everything you said, but with one exception
Megaman custom moves doesn't change the special moves as a whole, they just change their properties
You can say that, since he uses the same animations while performing them, his customs are just like the others characters.

Yeah. which is why I said I'd have to look at megaman's customs again. Thing is usually when I think of Megaman's customs I think of the Danger Wrap which is more anti-air than long range horizontal pressure. Also for some reason I thought his hyper bombs bounced, just goes to show how long it's been since I looked at his customs. Literally everything else is just a little bit of changed properties.


On a side note, decided to start dabbling into the Mii fighters to learn more about their moves. I just didn't do it before because there's other characters I wanted to main as well, and haven't had the chance to fight any other mii fighter players due to many many things stopping them from playing them.
Playing as a default mii size, I've been having a lot of fun with the 2122 set. I love everything about that feint jump move though. How it looks, how versatile it is with gameplay.
Going to just play around with 1-1-1-1 later tonight. Though just messin in training comparing moves as I type this post. Shot put and head-on assault feel soooo sluggish with their startups and end lag. I can only see myself using shot put against VERY slow characters, or characters that have poor/predictable recoveries. But I suppose that's the nature of powerful moves.