EDIT: In all honesty, I hope Sheik does not overshadow Zelda.

[Reyairia]

(In case this is just another repeat topic, just lock it. Thanks)

Now before everyone feeds me to the sharks, I don't either hate Sheik nor think that the only reason why she should be excluded would be because she is overpowered. In contrast, I thought Sheik was an awesome idea in Ocarina of Time and being broken can only so easily be fixed in Brawl. That's not really it at all.

The first reason why I think Sheik should not come back in Brawl is...
Well, just look at this forum, most of the threads are not about Zelda, but about Sheik. I think that Zelda really needs a chance to shine, and that people should actually use Zelda. How many people actually press on the Zelda icon in Melee without thinking of using Sheik? A very small percentage of the total, I believe. I think Zelda needs her own, character slot, no Sheik.

The second reason why I'm opposed to Sheik being included in Brawl is, well... the game isn't using the Ocarina of Time designs anymore. That was Melee, and I think it should stay in it's time. Sheik was there to represent that time, when OOT was the Zelda game and I think it should stay that way.

Going on, I'm pretty against the idea of alternate versions of characters having their own character slots (Yes, I'm looking at you WWLink and Dr. Mario; alternate costumes or gtfo). Sheik is only remnant of Ocarina of Time and she wasn't even her own character there, I don't think she deserves her own character slot either. I think it's time to let other characters take over that, and I think there are tons of characters more deserving of a spot in Brawl than Sheik.

Not saying that Sheik isn't going to come back, this is just my opinion of why Sheik should be scrapped unless Nintendo brings her back some other time. Unfortunately, I think she may be in regardless due to popular request. =/

EDIT: Okay, fine, I can accept Sheik coming back so long there's a stamina system like with Pokemon Trainer that forces the player not to ignore Zelda.

 

[Xanderous]

Everything you've said can be proven wrong. Why do you even try?

Besides, everyone wants a ninja.

 

[Reyairia]

Everything you've said can be proven wrong. Why do you even try?

Besides, everyone wants a ninja.

Proven wrong? You can't really prove an opinion wrong.
We already have a ninja with Snake more or less. -shrug-

 

[SuperLink9]

You're entitled to your opinion. I know the forum it up in flames with the whole Shiek debate, but do you wonder why that is? Because people want to know whether she's back or not, & they want to list all the most likely reasons for her returning/not returning.

I don't know if I've even met anyone here who can say that they actually hate Shiek as a character, it's always that she takes up Zelda's moveset, or that it wouldn't suit the continuity.

If Shiek isn't in it, half of the forum will be upset, if Shiek is in it, half of the forum will probably be upset too, there's isn't really a perfect outcome.

 

[Reyairia]

You're entitled to your opinion.

I just hope people realize just that; that this is just a thread posting my (hopefully reasonable) opinion, and that it's aiming more "Sheik shouldn't be in Brawl" and not "Sheik is not going to be in Brawl."

If Shiek isn't in it, half of the forum will be upset, if Shiek is in it, half of the forum will probably be upset too, there's isn't really a perfect outcome.

Well, that's a given and that's with any new feature or taking away of a feature Sakurai implements. I just hope that most Sheik supporters aren't solely supporting her because of her broken moveset in Melee. :/

 

[Zoo-bellocks]

I can honestly say I agree with all your points. Shiek quite simply does not deserve to be in, and the fanbase she's kept for all these years is due entirely to her being good in Smash.

 

[Xanderous]

Your major argument is that Shiek's inclusion leads to fewer people playing Zelda. Guess what, Fox's inclusion also leads to fewer people playing Zelda. No **** difference.

 

[SuperLink9]

Why is such a huge point that Shiek is broken/good in Smash Bros Melee? That has absolutely no effect on Brawl whatsoever. Effectively, Smash Bros sequels replace the older titles, if Shiek is in Brawl, there's a huge chance she'll be nerfed, & that Zelda will be buffed. So if that happens, what's the huge problem?

The only reason Shiek was "broken" in Melee, is because they rushed the game to release, they're not doing that with Brawl, infact they've delayed it for more than a year since the first announced release date.

Besides, if you argue Shiek was overpowered, you argue Peach is overpowered, because she can get damage down a lot better than Shiek can.

 

[Drake3]

Besides, if you argue Shiek was overpowered, you argue Peach is overpowered, because she can get damage down a lot better than Shiek can.

Umm Peach was a nasty, overpowered b*tch with some sort of lethal, hydraulic dress in Melee.

I'll get back to your other points later, just wanted to higlight that.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Everything you've said can be proven wrong. Why do you even try?

Besides, everyone wants a ninja.

I agree with this.

Your major argument is that Shiek's inclusion leads to fewer people playing Zelda. Guess what, Fox's inclusion also leads to fewer people playing Zelda. No **** difference.

I agree with this even more so.

 

[Iris]

Sorry, opinions can't really be proven wrong, and all the facts that were supplied are completely valid. Please take your fanboy elitism elsewhere if you're going to moan like children about some one disagreeing with you, especially if you can't even elaborate.

I agree fully with the original post, and though I won't be dissapointed if Sheik's a separate character, she'd better stay the hell out of Zelda's moveset. She really shouldn't be weakened just so she's dependent on her alter-ego. She's so much more important than that.

 

[Drake3]

Your major argument is that Shiek's inclusion leads to fewer people playing Zelda. Guess what, Fox's inclusion also leads to fewer people playing Zelda. No **** difference.

Yes there is, don't compare apples to oranges. Fox doesn't share a conjoined B move with Zelda does he? Zelda wasn't made weaker to balance Fox was she?

 

[Snake King 1]

seperate character with revisioned moveset would be awesome, but the people designing brawl should focus on zelda first if they have any time b4 2-10-07 they should try to get her in

 

[SuperLink9]

Ah, well at least it's not me who notices Peach is overpowered...

The great thing about her though, is that she seems weak until a better playing tries to use her, & she's the complete opposite.

Yes there is, don't compare apples to oranges. Fox doesn't share a conjoined B move with Zelda does he? Zelda wasn't made weaker to balance Fox was she?

What? I havn't heard that before... Zelda wasn't made "weaker" to balance Shiek, especially since Shiek was going to be in Melee before even Zelda was... Besides, Zelda isn't such a great character, & Shiek is overpowered. Using 1 rather than the other doesn't "waste" the other, personally I agree with what others have said, it's no different from people using Fox instead of Zelda.

People using Sheik rather than Zelda
People using Fox rather than Zelda

Where's the difference? Shiek & Zelda have entirely different movesets (apart from the transform of course) but if someone wants to play as Shiek, then why is it unfair to Zelda to play as Shiek? Shiek is a character just as Zelda is.

Besides, it shouldn't even be an issue any more, we all know Zelda's getting buffed, there's no confirmation but it's seems more likely than not.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Sorry, opinions can't really be proven wrong

The funny thing is that they can be. Ex:

"Iris, I really think I should kill you."

Please take your fanboy elitism elsewhere if you're going to moan like children about some one disagreeing with you, especially if you can't even elaborate.

'Moaning like a child' is completely different than 'simple statements', meaning that you're either stupid or challenged. These points actually has been proven wrong (or agrued) HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of times over, and that's sort of why we don't want to waste time trying to enlighten idiots anymore.

she'd better stay the hell out of Zelda's moveset. She really shouldn't be weakened just so she's dependent on her alter-ego. She's so much more important than that.

Sadly, Zelda is *princess*. This is why we play as Link in Zelda games. It makes sense that Zelda is weaker than Shiek, as Shiek is a ****ing ninja.

And there's still nothing stopping anyone frome having fun as Zelda. I use her all the time and I've STLL won a few, along with my friends.

 

[Iris]

The funny thing is that they can be. Ex:

"Iris, I really think I should kill you."

Great example, because I can really prove/disprove how some one thinks. Try harder at not sucking so bad, please.

'Moaning like a child' is completely different than 'simple statements', meaning that you're either stupid or challenged. These points actually has been proven wrong (or agrued) HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of times over, and that's sort of why we don't want to waste time trying to enlighten idiots anymore.

I guess if those specific points have been proven wrong that much, it shouldn't be too difficult to drag up those responses. Please, enlighten me, as I clearly don't understand what orifice you're speaking from.

Sadly, Zelda is *princess*. This is why we play as Link in Zelda games. It makes sense that Zelda is weaker than Shiek, as Shiek is a ****ing ninja.

No, Sheik's not a ninja. Sheik is Zelda in a body suit with Deku nuts. She's neither weaker or stronger, she just fights differently in Melee, I guess because of a less restricting outfit. Other than that, there's no reason why they should have any differences in fighting ability, since like you've said yourself plenty of times, they're the same person. I suggest you go on a long journey to find some logic.

And there's still nothing stopping anyone frome having fun as Zelda. I use her all the time and I've STLL won a few, along with my friends.

I have fun with Zelda too, but I can hardly compete with her when she's not even close to on par with almost every other character.

 

[SuperLink9]

To be fair, we're talking about Brawl right? Why should Zelda's power be a problem anymore? She'll probably be buffed, as I keep saying. The most fair way to answer this is with the Tier system, sure it's true Zelda "sucks" but, at least you're not a Kirby, Ness or Pikachu user, who went from the best of the best in the first game, to being some of the worst in Melee. There are tons of Kirby fans, don't act like Zelda is the only victim. All the characters will be evened out to an extent.

If Kirby was overpowered so much in SSB64, & made so weak in Melee, who's to say Shiek won't end up as the worst character in Brawl?

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Great example, because I can really prove/disprove how some one thinks. Try harder at not sucking so bad, please.

You should ask something I call "civilized society" and "state law" about that.

I guess if those specific points have been proven wrong that much, it shouldn't be too difficult to drag up those responses. Please, enlighten me, as I clearly don't understand what orifice you're speaking from.

I don't like wasting great information.

No, Sheik's not a ninja. Sheik is Zelda in a body suit with Deku nuts.

Are you seriously ****ting me?

I suggest you go on a long journey to find some logic.

That's so cute...

I have fun with Zelda too, but I can hardly compete with her when she's not even close to on par with almost every other character.

Suck less?

 

[SuperLink9]

Plz stop flaming!! >.< What good does it do other than personal attacks? Jeesus everyone's entitled to an opinion.

 

[Xanderous]

Seriously. Asking for a unique character with an awesome moveset to be completely removed is the lowest of low. Just don't play her if you don't like her.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Superlink9, while your path is noble, you're going to have to leave it to the mods.

Xanderous, it's your straightforward thinking that will save this world.

 

[SuperLink9]

Superlink9, while your path is noble, you're going to have to leave it to the mods.

Will do, but really, you could have calmed it down. It was pretty unnecessary.

Seriously. Asking for a unique character with an awesome moveset to be completely removed is the lowest of low. Just don't play her if you don't like her.

The sad thing is a huge number of people don't listen to that at all. Why can't more people have that view?

 

[Drake3]

Ah, well at least it's not me who notices Peach is overpowered...

No she really was, and she got what was coming to her.

What? I havn't heard that before... Zelda wasn't made "weaker" to balance Shiek, especially since Shiek was going to be in Melee before even Zelda was... Besides, Zelda isn't such a great character, & Shiek is overpowered. Using 1 rather than the other doesn't "waste" the other, personally I agree with what others have said, it's no different from people using Fox instead of Zelda.

The two were made with balance in mind, says her Melee trophy. Sheik was supposedly the damage accumulater and Zelda was the KOer. The 2 were part of an equation in which you had to effectively use both to equal 1 balanced character. It's a very good concept but didn't work in practicality. While playing Sheik I noticed that there's never very much time or opportunity to transform back into Zelda to finish a fight, especially since Sheik had the unusual ability to do it herself.

Also there's no proof that Sheik was supposed to be in Melee instead of Zelda.

People using Sheik rather than Zelda
People using Fox rather than Zelda

Where's the difference? Shiek & Zelda have entirely different movesets (apart from the transform of course) but if someone wants to play as Shiek, then why is it unfair to Zelda to play as Shiek? Shiek is a character just as Zelda is.

See above. Instead of it being 0.5(Sheik) + 0.5(Zelda) = 1, it was sort of like 1(Sheik)+0.5(Zelda) = O_o? Zelda was handicapped, Sheik was not.

Besides, it shouldn't even be an issue any more, we all know Zelda's getting buffed, there's no confirmation but it's seems more likely than not.

That's true. Zelda did get buffed so I don't think it will be such a huge problem anymore.

Xanderous, I don't think any of us want Sheik removed per se. We'd be equally happy if she was just separated.

 

[SuperLink9]

Shiek was revealed for Melee before Zelda, long before I believe. Still, I guess you're right about that, not really any proof.

As for the "balanced" thing, hell no, that doesn't work at all. If you ask me, Shiek is fine as a seperate character, they both should be, not enough time to transform for a "KO" in high level competition. Zelda doesn't really specialise in anything.

That being said, a great player can make any character good. Some of the people I know are good with Zelda.

& Peach seems a lot faster in Brawl, or Kirby seems slower, they can't be nerfing Kirby EVEN MORE! & I hope they don't nerf Peach too much.

 

[Drake3]

Shiek was revealed for Melee before Zelda, long before I believe. Still, I guess you're right about that, not really any proof.

Exactly. Besides, it's Zelda's icon that appears on that screen which means that Transformation is her skill.

As for the "balanced" thing, hell no, that doesn't work at all. If you ask me, Shiek is fine as a seperate character, they both should be, not enough time to transform for a "KO" in high level competition. Zelda doesn't really specialise in anything.

Exactly. So they should be separated, right?

That being said, a great player can make any character good. Some of the people I know are good with Zelda.

I know, but some are at a clear disadvantage when compared to others. Zelda just doesn't have that much going for her in the competitive scene. Except for that beautiful kick of course.

Peach seems a lot faster in Brawl, or Kirby seems slower, they can't be nerfing Kirby EVEN MORE! & I hope they don't nerf Peach too much.

Lol, Peach does seem a bit faster, but Dsmash got nerfed to hell. However, she still seems like a pretty good character. More balanced, yet still very well made.

Kirby was never very good at...running >_> But I love the way those little arms swivel when he waddles. He also seems improved. It looks like they changed the Dash+A and improved Up+B.

 

[Iris]

You should ask something I call "civilized society" and "state law" about that.

You obviously have a terrible grasp on what an opinion is.

Strike 1.

I don't like wasting great information.

In other words, you're pulling it out of your *** and want to cop out.

Strike 2.

Are you seriously ****ting me?

Sorry to be the first to tell you. Melee isn't canon, Ocarina of Time is. Name one similarity other than Deku nuts and transforming into Zelda that Sheik has in Melee.

Strike 3. You don't have to go home, but get the hell out of my thread.

 

[SuperLink9]

This seems like a good opportunity to use continuity & nerfing in the same sense...

If Samus & Kirby were as powerful as they were on their respectful games, I'm not sure any of the others would stand a chance :o

& a Magikarp's Splash attack could beat anything in 1 blow, it's just that Pokémon have never been used on humans in their games... so that's another extreme case of nerfing.

Shiek & Zelda would make more sense seperated in Brawl, somehow I doubt that will happen though, I'm not sure why, but I think Shiek will remain a transformation... But I'm definitely all for a seperate slot.

 

[Iris]

Like I've said, I'm all for separate character. I just want Zelda herself to be a more equal character. If anything, I'd like to see Sheik's playing style conserved rather than trashed completely.

 

[Super_alex2]

2 words. SKULL KID.

 

[SuperLink9]

If Sakurai has any pride or brains then he'll use this precious delay time to help make the character list even more balanced.

Ah well, Smash Bros is definitely no Sonic R

 

[the homosaurus rex]

My reply to the original post saying "Sheik was in OoT and won't be in Brawl because of that":

Mario using the FLUDD is from Super Mario Sunshine. So, he's allowed to use a move from an older game, but we're not allowed to have a character from an older game? That's rather stupid.

That's like saying they should only include Pokemon introduced in Diamond and Pearl.

 

[Drake3]

If Sakurai has any pride or brains then he'll use this precious delay time to help make the character list even more balanced.

You just had to remind me that Brawl is no longer coming out next month.

 

[SuperLink9]

Get over it, I'm a UKer & I'm personally glad it got delayed

Now there's a better chance of the releases being more fair to Europeans

 

[Drake3]

Get over it, I'm a UKer & I'm personally glad it got delayed

Now there's a better chance of the releases being more fair to Europeans

Keep dreaming. <_<

If it got delayed for us, it'll get delayed for you too.

 

[SuperLink9]

It didn't even have a release date for us yet! >.<

It wasn't delayed in Japan, if anything, they wanted to get Brawl in for Melee's 6th anniversary, but couldn't make it. I think EU will get the game early March, which is when we would have been getting it anyway

 

[Xanderous]

I don't care if she's separated or not; it makes no difference to me. Just so long as she's still in.

And as for saying I could "prove" the guy wrong, I actually said that before I read his post, so...yeah. I was assuming he would state facts.

 

[Drake3]

It didn't even have a release date for us yet! >.<

It wasn't delayed in Japan, if anything, they wanted to get Brawl in for Melee's 6th anniversary, but couldn't make it. I think EU will get the game early March, which is when we would have been getting it anyway

I would've thought that, but NA is still getting the game much later than Japan is for some reason.

 

[SuperLink9]

It's only like a 2-3 week difference. You Americans are so spoilt. XD

We had to wait half a freakin' year for Super Paper Mario

 

[Luthien]

My reply to the original post saying "Sheik was in OoT and won't be in Brawl because of that":

Mario using the FLUDD is from Super Mario Sunshine. So, he's allowed to use a move from an older game, but we're not allowed to have a character from an older game? That's rather stupid.

That's like saying they should only include Pokemon introduced in Diamond and Pearl.

You seriously need to talk to THE rAT. This has been argued over and over again. Long story short, we've (or I've, at least) come to the conclusion that Mario is the same Mario in every game. Therefore, he can use moves he's used before, even if it was a long time ago. However, TP Zelda is completely different from OoT Zelda (like, a different person, different time, and everything) so she can't transform into a completely different person. As someone said, it would be like having TP Zelda transforming into Tetra.

Unless, of course, you're in favour of Sheik having his/her own character slot?

 

[SuperLink9]

Or you could maintain that continuity means jack in Smash Bros